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ladlon
02-27-2006, 11:07 PM
Just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something here... I've set up a little mission where I'm flying a B25 to bomb a ground target. I've set up the waypoints and designated a target... but what I'm confused about is the bombing station and autopilot.

With each other station (ex. tail gunner), the previous station goes on autopilot, and you gain control of the current station. In this example, the message 'Tail Gunner Autopilot: Off' would show.

However, when I go to the waist gunner/bomber position and go to the bombing view (Shift F1), I don't get the message 'Autopilot: Off' message... I can turn autopilot (for the pilot) on/off, though. However, turning the pilot autopilot on prevents me from operating the bombing controls (alt/speed/angle settings).

Is this normal? Am I supposed to set up everything before taking off, and switch the autopilot off while I'm in the bombing station during the bombing run (with the assumption that the plane will fly straight and level from its current flight pattern?

ladlon
02-27-2006, 11:07 PM
Just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something here... I've set up a little mission where I'm flying a B25 to bomb a ground target. I've set up the waypoints and designated a target... but what I'm confused about is the bombing station and autopilot.

With each other station (ex. tail gunner), the previous station goes on autopilot, and you gain control of the current station. In this example, the message 'Tail Gunner Autopilot: Off' would show.

However, when I go to the waist gunner/bomber position and go to the bombing view (Shift F1), I don't get the message 'Autopilot: Off' message... I can turn autopilot (for the pilot) on/off, though. However, turning the pilot autopilot on prevents me from operating the bombing controls (alt/speed/angle settings).

Is this normal? Am I supposed to set up everything before taking off, and switch the autopilot off while I'm in the bombing station during the bombing run (with the assumption that the plane will fly straight and level from its current flight pattern?

SaQSoN
02-27-2006, 11:29 PM
Due to the engine and gameplay limitations, the bombardier operation isn't quite realistic.
Basically, when you are taking position of the bombardier in the game, you, actually, play for both, the pilot and the bombardier.
So, when you switch the autopilot on from the bombardier station, it takes control of a plane, as if it was switched on from the pilot's seat and, obviously will prevent you from controlling the plane in any way.
This means, when bombing, you should simultatiously control the plane and operate the bomsight.
Besides normal autopilot, there is also wing level autopilot. You should assign a key for it. All it does - makes the plane to fly straight and level.

Tully__
02-27-2006, 11:49 PM
The wing level autopilot is called "Level Stabilizer" and is right near the top of the list in the game "Controls" screen. Don't confuse it with the control "Toggle Level Autopilot" found next to the autopilot entry, the "Toggle Level Autopilot" control is actually for turning off/on the automatic autopilot switching when you change stations.

ladlon
02-27-2006, 11:50 PM
Hello again, Vladimir! Thanks for the response.

Ya, that seems to be what's going on... Odd thing is, the autopilot seems to be ignoring the intended waypoint altitudes... Probably just unable to maintain/climb to the heights I've given it in the distance given... Hard to say. I'm probably doing something wrong, or not taking something into consideration.

I suppose technically the bombadier SHOULD be controlling the plane (as I understand they did in b-17s when adjusting the lineup)... However, it would be nice if you could adjust the angle , speed and altitude settings for the bombsite without taking control of the plane. The left/right alignment, as I understand it, SHOULD result in you taking control of the plane, so the current way is fine in that respect... I just wish you could adjust the other things (bombsite alt/ang/speed) without taking control of the plane.

I'm going to have to experiment with that one and get used to it, I guess... I think I'm making some sort of error in my waypoint programming.

SaQSoN
02-28-2006, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just wish you could adjust the other things (bombsite alt/ang/speed) without taking control of the plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You can do that anytime. Either on auto-pilot or without it. But note, that won't affect AI accuracy, if you want it to drop the bombs.

So,usual process of bombing would look as follows:
1. Fly trhough the waypoints, using radio-heading indicator. After closing the target, switch to the bombardier position and align your heading to the target. Do it first from normal view and then from the bombsight view for a fine adjustments.
2. Switch wings level autopilot and adjust bombsight elevation, so the crosshair will point to the target.
3. Switch on the bombsight calculator.
4. Adjust heading, if needed, by switching off the level autopilot and oing gentle turns, so the roll, pitch or yaw angle will not exceed 4 degree. Switch on the level autopilot, reaim the bombsight and switch it on again.
5. Wait untill the bombsight will drop the bombs.
6. Run away home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The bombsight altitude and speed is better to be set preliminary on the ground, according to your flight plan. Then you will only have to do some slight adjustments to this values, which will save you time during the bombing run.

Note, some bombsights would require manual bomb release (TB-3 or Pe-2). Some of them do not allow changing elevation (TB-3, for instance).

bogusheadbox
02-28-2006, 04:25 AM
Well there are two methods that i know of. One is tricky but can be used on any plane. The other will require you to make your plane reach intended alititude and speed before dropping bombs.

1st method tricky but universal

1. Get your plane to altitude
2. Line up your target with bombsight as far in advance as possible (track target)
3. Engage level stabilizer (make sure you are not dropping altitude - so use trim or combat flaps.)((you may need to toggle level stabilizer on or off to yaw the plane onto target))
3. enter your height and speed into bombsight and keep them constant.
4. put cross hairs on target
5. Set auto bomb command. (Cross hairs will track target and drop bombs at correct angle)
NB . You can adjust cross hairs forward and back by changing the air speed in the bomb indicator. Just make sure you make the plane do what you enter into the bomb sight.

All the rest is up to you. But this method will mean you constantly bouncing back and forth looking at cross hairs, air speed indicator and heigh while adjusting all the time to keep to the parameters you have set in the bomb site. But at least as long as you do this, the bombs will drop at the correct time.

2nd method. (preset values) Around the net you will find many bombing charts for different aircraft showing air speed, height and bombing angles. Once you have that

1. Get your plane to altitude
2. Line up your target with bombsight as far in advance as possible (track target)
3. Engage level stabilizer (make sure you are not dropping altitude - so use trim or combat flaps.)((you may need to toggle level stabilizer on or off to yaw the plane onto target))
4. Manually adjust the bombing angle to desired angle.
5. When target enters crosshairs drop bombs.

I find the second method easier on average as you are working to preset values. So you can get your plane stable at the right altitude well before you enter your bombing run. Therefore it is not as frantic bouncing around looking at target, looking at speed, looking at height making sure you are in your allocated parameters jsut before target. All becuase you should have set your plane for correct flight well before you are close to the target.

The only problem with the second method is.

If your target is in an elevated position, you will need to work out its elevation before hand. else your bombs will miss. The first method will factor this in automatically for you, but requires a lot more frantic control and observation on final run.

All of this is done via the bombers position. Once i start the proceedure, i do not enter the cockpit until bombs are dropped and i am returning for home.

Maraz_5SA
02-28-2006, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

(...)

Therefore it is not as frantic bouncing around looking at target, looking at speed, looking at height making sure you are in your allocated parameters jsut before target.

(...)

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this method is not so frantic if you do a little planning. You should be at the planned height way before the target (say, at least 20 km before the target). You should not overload you aircrafy (e.g. 100% fuel + max bombload) so you will know that the level stabilizer will keep altitude.

You can preset your altitude during your climb or even before climbing. When you are near the target you switch to autolevel and, from now on, you can forget about altitude.

Once you have adjusted yaw (by the way, there is no need to disengage autopilot, you can adjust the yaw using the rudder trim, except in the TB-3) the only thing you must do is tracking the target with your bombsight velocity settings. You don't need looking at the actual aircraft speed, not even to the speed you set in the bombsight.

Simply, if your target goes down in the crosshair, you must increase bombsight speed. If your target goes up in the crosshair, you must decrease bombsight speed.

It's very simple, of course id becomes frantic if there are fighters around attacking you, in this case, remember that height is your friend.

The higher, the better, 4000 m is the absolute minimum to hope to be safe from fighters and AAA, 5000 m is much better.

Plan your route in advance so that you be at sufficient height when you enter the dangerous airspace. Put 25% fuel so that you aircraft is lighter and climbs better; 25% fuel is enough for roughly one hour of flight in most medium bombers we have.

Maraz

bogusheadbox
02-28-2006, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maraz_5SA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

(...)

Therefore it is not as frantic bouncing around looking at target, looking at speed, looking at height making sure you are in your allocated parameters jsut before target.

(...)

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this method is not so frantic if you do a little planning. You should be at the planned height way before the target (say, at least 20 km before the target). You should not overload you aircrafy (e.g. 100% fuel + max bombload) so you will know that the level stabilizer will keep altitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Unless bombing a static building, you simply may not have an idea of where your target would be. Sometimes it is necessary to recon the objective area, select a target and then converge for a bombing run as soon as possible to avoid enemy fighters. Not all the time will you be able to recon the area, head 20 k out and loop back in for an easy kill. Unless of course you know the position of the enemy target 100% of the time. It is even harder if you have enemy units in proximity to frinedly ones.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Plan your route in advance so that you be at sufficient height when you enter the dangerous airspace. Put 25% fuel so that you aircraft is lighter and climbs better; 25% fuel is enough for roughly one hour of flight in most medium bombers we have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may work for you. But under no circumstances will i fly a B-25 with less than 75 % fuel. There are a lot of people out there that know how to target B-25 fuel tanks. A few hits and only a moderate flying distance will see you out of fuel well before you are anywhere near home. But hey, each their own i guess.

Ernst_Rohr
02-28-2006, 09:28 AM
Bombing in IL2/PF takes some practice, and the bombers all handle a little differently.

Here is my usual method for a B-25/He-111/G4M run, using the Automatic sight;

Before takeoff:
1) First off, make sure you know what your target is!
2) Note your target type (soft, hard, bridge, ect)
3) If your commanding the mission CHECK YOUR LOADOUT! The default loadout may not be the best choice for the mission.
3a) Change the bomb loadout if its not optimal for the target. ie. incidiaries are bad on bridges, switch to heavy bombs.
3b) If you want, change out the fuel loadout if the mission is short enough. BE CAREFULL when doing this. Pacific missions in particular tend to be fairly long. Better extra gas than not enough!
4) Check the map of the target area. Try to pick out geographical features to help spot the target


Now, get that bird airborne!

On approach to the target area, you should be flying one very long leg to the approach waypoint (this is your transit leg). During the transit leg, your bomber should be climbing to mission altitude. As you approach the end of the leg the AC should level out at mission altitude. Once level, do the following;
1) Switch to the bombadiers position
2) Turn off auto pilot
3) Engage the level stablizer
4) Adjust your bombsight for your current speed
5) Adjust bombsight for current altitude
6) Adjust sight view up to around 50 to 70 degrees.
7) At this point calculate your True Air Speed (TAS) This is VERY important for precision bombing!

If your new to this, you may want to bump your time speed to 1/2 or 1/4 while you get used to these controls.

Also, there are some very good third party resources for figuring TAS, both in static charts, and a third party java application that you feed your speed and altitude data into and it produces your TAS. I HIGHLY recommend using one or the other.

Once you have everything adjusted, switch off the level stabilzer and resume autopilot. You should see the AC immediately start climbing again, back to mission altitude. This is normal.

The above procedure is setting up the gross adjustments for the bombsight, so you dont have to mess with large corrections during the approach to the target on the bomb run.

Once you hit the final transit waypoint, the AC should turn in on the approach waypoint. During this time, you should be switching views to monior the situation over the target and the status of your bomber. Watch for weather, flak, and fighters.

As you come to the end of the approach leg you should start with the following;
1) Get on the bombsight BEFORE you hit the waypoint.
2) Follow the sight through the turn, it will blank out.
3) Start looking for the target!
4) As soon as the sight stabilzes and comes back up, switch off the autopilot and engage the level stablizer. The bomber should descend some while the stabilizer engages.
5) Look for the target!
5a) If the aircraft is still descending, adjust with combat flaps or trim. Trim is generally perfered, as flaps WILL impact your speed.
6) Fine tune the speed and altitude settings on the bombsight once the AC stabilizes.
7) Make sure to update the TAS!
8) Look for the target!
9) Watch for rate of sink, make sure your not still losing altitude!
10) Your now on the bomb run!

The bomb run;
1) The AC should be stable and level, if it isnt, trim up the AC. USE trim, NOT the stick or you can lose the sight.
2) You should have the target in view. Now you should start lining up a target point.
3) Bring the sight up to point at the target, get the crosshairs over the BOTTOM of the target spot. Use rudder trim to adjust to the left or right.
3a) If your leading other AC, remember your in formation and plan accordingly. If your the leftmost plane in the formation, make sure to pick a target point that is to the bottom left of the target. That way the bombs of the other AC will drop on the rest of the target.
3b) Remember, your bombs will drop in a stick, so they will "walk" into the target. Always aim a little short of the target!
3c) If your lead AC, the other AC drop when you drop, but at a slight delay. Make sure you aim a little short so they dont miss!
4) Assuming you have your target spotted in the sight, make your final corrections to the sight.
4a) MAKE SURE TO CHECK YOUR TAS! If your speed is wrong, it will affect the impact point.
5) If everything is lined up properly, and your sight is right on the target, engage the bombsight automation. This "locks" the sight on the target point you have selected.
6) Watch the sight and the target point. If the sight is set correctly, it should stay on the target point.
6a) If the sight starts to run past the target, disengage the bombsight automation, lower the sight angle, and re-engage automation once you have the sight lined back up on the target point.
6b) If the sight starts to sink below the target point, disengage the automation and realign the sight by bringing the angle up. If this happens make sure to check your altitude!! It is common to see this happen when the AC is losing altitude!
7) Assuming everything is correct, the sight should stay on the target point and the sight angle should start of decline automatically as it tracks the drop point.
8) The sight may wander a little bit from the target point, this is normal, particularly if there is flak. As long as there are no gross changes, your still ok.
9) Once the sight elevation sinks low enough, you should see the message "bombs away". Your done!
10) Once the bombs are clear, disengage the level stablizer, and re-engage the autopilot.
11) Get to the cockpit and get a look at your situation, then start exiting the target area!

Thats it! This may look horribly compliated, but once you have done it a few times, it gets to be second nature and you will start targetting and dropping reliably.

NOTE: This only works for AUTOMATIC sighting. Manual bombing follows a slightly differnet method, and the Soviet TB3 bomber is completely different, since it has a fixed sight.

ladlon
02-28-2006, 09:36 AM
Wow, thanks for all the replies, guys.

Vladimir: You're saying you can adjust the bombsight alt/angle/speed with autopilot on? (Your first line) Your further explanation makes sense, but it indicates having to turn off autopilot to make the adjustments. When I go to the bombsight with pilot autopilot on, I can't make the adjustments (only switching off autopilot will allow it). One thing I'm doing differently, though, is I am using AUTOPILOT and not WINGS LEVELING autopilot... Maybe that's what I should try next.

In PF (standalone), there's only the B25 bomber, right? (By that, I mean that's the only bomber with that sort of bombsight)

Another question... How is the bombsight(?) on fighter planes used? I think it was a corsair that I was flying, and it had this other type of bombsite. Haven't seen any tutorials or mention of that type.

Bogusheadbox: I've been seeing these bombing charts, but never really understood them. Could you give me a quick outline of what they are and how they are used? I'm not familiar with this concept of using presets.

I obviously need to experiment more, as well as do some more reading...

Wild.Bill.Kelso
02-28-2006, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
The wing level autopilot is called "Level Stabilizer" and is right near the top of the list in the game "Controls" screen. Don't confuse it with the control "Toggle Level Autopilot" found next to the autopilot entry, the "Toggle Level Autopilot" control is actually for turning off/on the automatic autopilot switching when you change stations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>When I press the 'Toggle Level Autopilot' key the message 'Autopilot Automation' appears on the screen. I always thought that when that was on it added AI (Intelligence) to the flight. Like it will follow waypoints, takeoff, land, bomb, ect.. all automatically. And if it was off, Autopilot would just fly straight with no AI. It sounds like I have that wrong. Does Autopilot always use AI?

Tully__
02-28-2006, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wild.Bill.Kelso:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
The wing level autopilot is called "Level Stabilizer" and is right near the top of the list in the game "Controls" screen. Don't confuse it with the control "Toggle Level Autopilot" found next to the autopilot entry, the "Toggle Level Autopilot" control is actually for turning off/on the automatic autopilot switching when you change stations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>When I press the 'Toggle Level Autopilot' key the message 'Autopilot Automation' appears on the screen. I always thought that when that was on it added AI (Intelligence) to the flight. Like it will follow waypoints, takeoff, land, bomb, ect.. all automatically. And if it was off, Autopilot would just fly straight with no AI. It sounds like I have that wrong. Does Autopilot always use AI? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Autopilot always uses AI. The only "auto" mode that has no AI is the "Toggle Level Stabiliser" which acts as a wing leveler and nothing more. In the latest versions it is only available on large aircraft, possibly only on those equipped with level bombing bombsights.

The Toggle Level Autopilot control switches on/off the feature that automatically turns on autopilot at crew stations you're departing and automatically turns it on at a crew station you've just occupied. When automation is off, you have to manually turn autopilot off when you arrive at a new station and remember to turn it on again before you leave. When level bombing you'll find it useful to toggle automation off to prevent the pilot autopilot taking over when you jump to the bombardier position. At most other times it's more useful toggled on except when you want to manouver the aicraft while occupying a gunner position.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
02-28-2006, 10:51 AM
Thanks for the explaination. I am just getting into some bombing with the He-111, and this will come in helpful..

ladlon
02-28-2006, 05:17 PM
I think I've figured out why things weren't working for me... Using Autopilot rather than Wing Leveler was one of them... Autopilot won't let you adjust the bombsights, Wing Leveler will. As well, I was bombing from WAY too low, giving me no time to do anything...

Is the 'Toggle Sight Mode' hotkey the thing that you press once you have lined up the bombsight crosshairs on the target, and you want it then to 'track' it and release the bombs when it reaches the right angle/distance?

ladlon
02-28-2006, 05:35 PM
I just watched another training video for bombing, and this one definitely answered some questions. I'll be taking another crack at it later. Still confused about using presets... but I'm starting to get it all now... Just simple little things I was doing wrong or misunderstanding. Thanks again for everyones input.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
02-28-2006, 06:27 PM
Ok, I just tried my first attempt too. But when I pressed the Toggle Sight Automation key it walked down (sank)below the target and turned off by itself. I got the message 'Bomb Sight Automation Off' or something like that. But Ernst_Rohr's instructions say that can be caused by losing altitude. I'll try again....

But, I thought you could fly the ac when in the Bombadier view. But my joystick would not control the plane. How do you fly the ac when in Bombadier mode? There are 2 other keys that control something called 'Side Slip'. I'm not sure what this is.... I thought it was probably to adjust for wind or something... But is it to control the flight of the aircraft??? From the Bombadier view it only seems to adjust the Bombsight view left or right.

ladlon
02-28-2006, 06:41 PM
One of the problems I find is that the manual and game (and tutorial documents) sometimes use different terminology. I am convinced that any errors we are doing are simple misunderstandings, and that the process (once you know what it is) makes complete sense... I'm just not there yet!

I tried another go at bombing... and (unfortunately) I'm confused again.

According to the manual/keycard you have an Autopilot key and a Level Autopilot key... I was under the impression that one puts on Autopilot (plane flies the altitude, speed and heading indicated by each waypoint)... and Level Autopilot simply keeps the plane level (roll AND pitch?).

However, playing the sim, it seems like Autopilot is the 'on/off' switch, and Level Autopilot is a 'select type of autopilot' toggle... between full (alt/speed/heading) autopilot and wing leveler autopilot. If Autopilot isn't on, the wing leveler isn't on... or so it seems when you play.

To make matters worse (for me at least), pressing the wing leveler autopilot results in the toggling message 'Autopilot Automation On/Off' (as opposed to Wing Leveler On/Off)... So now I'm really confused.

Again, I'm sure this makes total sense once you know what it all means.

BTW, I still haven't managed to properly use the bombsight, as I can't keep the plane level... both in altitude and in roll (...I think I can get the roll level, now that I THINK I know what is happening with the two 'autopilot' keys... and I recall reading here that the altitude trouble might be caused by lack of power or trim or something like that...

Anyone able to shed some light on this? I know you guys have probably responded to this topic about 100 times more than you'd like. I'm trying to find answers via search and tutorials as well, but any feedback is greatly appreciated (...plus it's cool hearing from you anyway).

Cheers!

BTW, Wild Bill... I believe the two keys you are thinking of are the 'Adjust Sight Control Left/Right', which (from what I understand) move the bombsight crosshairs (well, technically the plane, I think) left and right, in case you aren't aligned horizontally... Plane or crosshair, either way, it allows you to line up the target. I think you are supposed to use rudder trim to do that too... so I'm not sure if one is preferred over the other (or if they are essentially the same thing). The keys, like the other bomber controls, are undefined initially.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
02-28-2006, 08:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ladlon:
One of the problems I find is that the manual and game (and tutorial documents) sometimes use different terminology. I am convinced that any errors we are doing are simple misunderstandings, and that the process (once you know what it is) makes complete sense... I'm just not there yet! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, the 'Name of the Command' in the Controls screen is different from the 'Message you receive' when you actually use the key press to run the function in the game. That makes it a little more confusing to learn... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ladlon:
According to the manual/keycard you have an Autopilot key and a Level Autopilot key... I was under the impression that one puts on Autopilot (plane flies the altitude, speed and heading indicated by each waypoint)... and Level Autopilot simply keeps the plane level (roll AND pitch?).

However, playing the sim, it seems like Autopilot is the 'on/off' switch, and Level Autopilot is a 'select type of autopilot' toggle... between full (alt/speed/heading) autopilot and wing leveler autopilot. If Autopilot isn't on, the wing leveler isn't on... or so it seems when you play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Good point. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I also noticed that I cannot turn off the Level Stabilizer if I have Autopilot On. I have to turn Autopilot Off before I can disengage the Level Stabilizer. So, the Autopilot overrides the Level Stabilizer? This has screwed me up a couple of times, as I think I am pressing the right keys to turn off the Stabelizer, but it doesn't turn off, and I can't make the adjustments I intend to make.

ladlon
02-28-2006, 08:31 PM
Okay, here's what I found now... This may either help or confuse you!

One of the problems was that I was confusing Level Autopilot with Level Stabilizer (...I was meaning to use Level Stabilizer, but was using Level Autopilot instead... Didn't see Stabilizer in the key commands initially).

Okay, here's the deal, as I understand it now...

Autopilot: Toggles between normal player control (of whatever station... pilot, gunner) vs AI/computer controlled for that station. Previous stations will switch to computer/AI control and player will control current position (ASSUMING THE NEXT THING IS SET, THAT BEING...)

Level Autopilot: This is the (initially) confusing one... This isn't the stabilizer. This is instead a toggle, where the player chooses if the previous station goes under control and the current station is switched to player control... vs the player having to manually switch to AI or Player control for each station they go in. In the second case, stations left on manual control will CONTINUE to be manual after the player moves to the next station... and the current station will be whatever it was left at, and stations set to AI control will have to manually be switched to Player control if the player wants to control it.

Level Stabilizer: HERE'S the one I was missing (and thought Level Autopilot was)... This is the 'autopilot' that only keeps the plane straight and level. Regular Autopilot will fly the plane to with the heading/altitude/speed indicated on each waypoint.

So, what I do (and have done, even before realizing there was a toggle for it) is to have the Level Autopilot (not stabilizer) set to ON (shows Autopilot Automation On)... which means that moving to another station will have the computer take over the previous one, and the player has immediate control over the current one... the way I like it.

As for bombsight controls, as long as you're just using the level stabilizer (not level autopilot), you can control the bombsight settings (whether the stabilizer is on or off)... You don't need the autopilot on, as long as the plane was left on a nice straight path before you switched on the level stabilizer.

Whew, that makes sense now... Hopefully I'll be able to actually do some bombing now!

Hope that helped... Feel free to ask me about any other theories I have on this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ernst_Rohr
02-28-2006, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok, I just tried my first attempt too. But when I pressed the Toggle Sight Automation key it walked down (sank)below the target and turned off by itself. I got the message 'Bomb Sight Automation Off' or something like that. But Ernst_Rohr's instructions say that can be caused by losing altitude. I'll try again....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wild.Bill,

Two things can be causing this. Altitude sink is most common, the plane starts losing altitutde and it throws the sight syncro off, resulting in the sight sinking below the target.

The second one is that your sight speed is a little off. When your closing to target and you have the speed input, make sure its TAS and not just straight airspeed. The difference in velocity will throw the sight off and can cause sink, but only if your speeds are really out of whack. If your seeing it drop that fast, I would suspect altitude.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
But, I thought you could fly the ac when in the Bombadier view. But my joystick would not control the plane. How do you fly the ac when in Bombadier mode? There are 2 other keys that control something called 'Side Slip'. I'm not sure what this is.... I thought it was probably to adjust for wind or something... But is it to control the flight of the aircraft??? From the Bombadier view it only seems to adjust the Bombsight view left or right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can fly from the bombadier postion, but you have to have ALL automation turned off to do this. No autopilot, no level stabilizer. The biggest problem with this view is that it can be very easy to throw yourself off the bomb run due to not having a good view of the AC status.

Really, the only time you want to come out and manually correct your flight path is for a few cases where you need rudder correction to true up to the target. The TB3 has to use this a lot, as it lacks trim controls and the bombsight doesnt elevate. You have to jump out of automation, use rudder to true up the target, then slip back in to level stabilizer and and let it true up the AC. Takes some practice to get the hang of it.

Finally, the adjust left/right keys are to allow for drift of the AC. Your only going to use this in high crosswinds or if you have serious engine damage and torque is causing your flight path and the nose to come out of true. Example: your right engine is damaged/dead and the resulting torque is causing the aircraft to slew right. Your heading may still be 0 degrees, but your nose is pointing to 5 degrees due to torque. The left/right drift allows you to correct for that. I have only used it once, and to be honest, if your that shot up, your generally having bigger issues that just putting the bombs on target.

Hope that clears some stuff up! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ernst_Rohr
02-28-2006, 09:25 PM
Ladlon,

Sounds like your on the right track!

Grab a few quick missions and practice hitting some static targets. Once you start getting the hang of the sight adjustments and TAS, you should start seeing the bombs drop right where you want them!

ladlon
02-28-2006, 09:27 PM
UGH!!!

Okay, now I figured out another thing... The stuff I figured out before was very helpful, but nevertheless, I still couldn't 'lock on target' so to speak... Despite having (seemingly) the correct settings on the bombsight, the crosshair would still slide. I thought it was the whole true/indicated airspeed, yet it was REALLY off. The drift was improved by putting the speed to the lowest setting (100), but that certainly isn't correct.

Turns out (cue the 'I'm a pinhead' music) the speedbar altitude is in metres, and the bombsight setting display is in feet!

Funny, I've noticed in warfare in general a strange tendency to mix units/measurements. Why don't they keep everything in feet, or metres, or miles, etc? I notice the same thing with submarine warefare... One thing is in Knots, the other in metres, etc. Man, it's bad enough that they had to do math, but it must have been hell doing it with people shooting at you!

Okay, so now I understand why I'm seeing all these bombing/conversion charts online now!

Ernst_Rohr
02-28-2006, 09:56 PM
Ahh! Very good point, Im used to it now, so I didnt even think to mention that.

Enabling the speedbar and setting up a key to adjust between measurements may be handy.

Grabbing the bombsight tables is a huge help though, and some of the more advanced ones can be used for preset manual bombing, which comes in handy for low level bombing runs, as the autosight doesnt like anything below 800 feet.

ladlon
03-01-2006, 12:20 AM
Hello, Ernst!

Yes, I just discovered the 'Toggle Speedbar' feature.... Previously, I had thought it just toggled the speedbar on/off... but now I find it actually toggles between metric and imperial measurement. So, now I have the speedbar and the bombsight units matching (much better!!).

Still figuring things out, but certainly a lot closer now.

Trying to figure out where you can actually read true airspeed... I know the speedbar is showing indicated airspeed. I'm assuming that ONE of the dials in the plane will show true airspeed. Thought it was the one in the bomber station, but even if it IS, I am puzzled how to read it. Has two dials. Got to study it more. Does the cockpit have a true airspeed indicator? I'm assuming the regular airspeed dial in the cockpit isn't true airspeed. Sheesh, don't tell me you have to calculate it?!

Yes, I've been checking out the bomb charts. Eager to use them, but I found I was having trouble getting the plane to the target speed.

I'll try some automated bomb runs first, then hopefully figure out manual ones.

Is the B25 the only level bomber (bomber with the bombsight) in the PF standalone? I'm receiving FB/AEP in a week or so, so I'll soon have the others.

Tully__
03-01-2006, 06:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wild.Bill.Kelso:
Ok, I just tried my first attempt too. But when I pressed the Toggle Sight Automation key it walked down (sank)below the target and turned off by itself. I got the message 'Bomb Sight Automation Off' or something like that. But Ernst_Rohr's instructions say that can be caused by losing altitude. I'll try again....

But, I thought you could fly the ac when in the Bombadier view. But my joystick would not control the plane. How do you fly the ac when in Bombadier mode? There are 2 other keys that control something called 'Side Slip'. I'm not sure what this is.... I thought it was probably to adjust for wind or something... But is it to control the flight of the aircraft??? From the Bombadier view it only seems to adjust the Bombsight view left or right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill,

Use the "Toggle Level Autopilot" control to turn "Autopilot Automation" off before leaving the pilot's station. This will leave the pilot autopilot off when you jump to the bombardier position and allow you to continue controlling the aircraft with the joystick when necessary.
Turn off the Autopilot for the bombardier position if necessary, activate the sight, line up the bombsight on target and engage "Level Stabilizer". Check your altitude is steady, use elevator trim to make adjustments if necessary.
Set up your bomb sight and turn on sight automation. If the reticle drops below the target, you have the speed set too high or the altitude set too low and if the reticle drifts past the target you have the speed set too low or the altitude set too high. Remember the altitude required is the altitude above target, not the altitude above sea level which is what your instruments show. If you're confident you have the altitude setting correct, disengage automation, re-align the reticle on the target, adjust speed setting and turn automation back on. Once you have the speed set so that the reticle stays lined up, relax until the bombs drop.

Should you find that the sight has drifted a bit to one side or the other, use rudder trim to stop the drift. A click or two extra will drift it back on then remove the extra trim to keep it there.

Once the bombs release, turn off Level Stabilizer, turn on Autopilot automation then jump back into the pilot position and fly home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-01-2006, 07:01 AM
Ok, this all helped a lot guys, thanks. I was able to get it to work a few times last night. Like Ernst said in one of his earlier posts, this all gets easier after a few trys. Just have to get used the keys your going to use, and to the different procedures that all work together.

I had to set it all up, turn on bombsight automation, and if the crosshairs didn't track the target, re-adjust the Distance Angle to move the crosshairs back down below the target, make sure the altitude and speed are constant. If not, adjust trim/flaps, recalucate and enter the data again. I was already used to the speedbar for a long time, so I had it set to mph for the B25. I need more practice, but this is fun...

The bombsight shows the angle/distance elevation. But I don't see where it shows the TAS and Altitude you entered. Does it show that, or am I missing it? Also, what is that arrow at the bottom/right of the bombsight? Does it do anything?

I think I missed here, but I got close. The altitude is just a little off...

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7383/bombsighttabletool8vg.jpg

ladlon
03-01-2006, 09:03 AM
Hey, Wild Bill....

Good to hear you're making progress. I'm making some progress too. Almost there! Just now dealing with conversions/charts.

Any adjustments you make on the bombsight should trigger a message to appear. Example: If you are adjusting the altitude setting, you should get an Altitude: 1200ft (for example) message as you hold down the Alt up/down keys.

If you're not seeing anything, maybe you have autopilot on, and are not actually controlling it. However, if you are seeing the bombsight move up/down when you adjust the angle, then it IS working... I'd check that you have all the hotkeys working (alt, speed, angle, left/right adjust) in the hotkeys/control screen.

The markings/numbers and the arrows are in fact 'real'. The top one is the angle, I believe. Not sure what the others are. Maybe the left/right adjustment amount? Speed, alt? I'd have to watch them as I adjust those things, and that would show what they represent.

Hey, you've got that bombsight calculator mod I've been hearing about! I got to get that too!

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-01-2006, 09:25 AM
I do get all the messages ok. But I was just wondering if the Bombsight displayed the Altitude and Speed that you entered somewhere like it does the Angle. I think a real bombsight has dials where the Altitude and Speed is calibrated, so a Bombadier could look to see what he has set. But I don't think we can look anywhere for that info after the message fades away....

You can get the bombsight calculator here (http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/files/Bombing_Guide_v1.4.zip). It is VERY handy. You just set your speedbar to mph for the B25 (or leave it a km/hr for non-American ac). Then enter the speedbar info in this little tool and it calcs the TAS for you. Then you enter it in the bombsight for the game.

Ernst_Rohr
03-01-2006, 03:55 PM
Glad to see you guys are getting the hang of it!

That TAS calculator is a godsend, and I use it all the time. There are other places to find the TAS, but it involves jumping out of the view to the cockpitless mode (breaks immersion for me, so I dont do it) or from the pilots position in SOME aircraft. That little TAS program is quicker, and it does make up for some of the shortcomings of the bombsight.

A real automatic sight like the Norden or the Luft sight did indeed have dials and indicators that showed the input information, and also calculated the airspeed/TAS, which made life easier. Some more simplistic AC and sights had to make to with a TAS conversion table, just like those charts we can download.

It would be nice if the sights held the last entered information, maybe in the future we might get something, or someone might do another 3rd party app.

Ladlon, the B-25 and G4M are the only bombers in PF, once you get the rest of the package the bombers are;
Russia- TB3 (2 models)
Germany- He-111 (2 models)
Ju-88
Japan- G4M Betty

Bill,
The indicators on the sight are the angle of sight, and angle of drop indicators. If you look at the top arrow, its solid on the bottom, and hollow on the top. The arrow on the bottom is hollow as well. On an accurate automatic sight (Norden/Luft) once the sight was set and the target locked, the sight angle indicator would start to decriment down the scale.
When the two hollow arrows met up, the bombs would drop automatically. IL2 does sort of model this, but you may see the bombs drop before the indicator arrows actually meet up.

A good place to see a real solid bombsight is B-17 II: The Mighty Eighth. Its a old sim, but does a very good job modelling precision bombing from a WW2 bird.

ladlon
03-02-2006, 08:40 AM
Wild Bill: Ah! I was looking for that calculator all day! Thanks, mate!
Okay, I get you now... You mean a permanent display (like on the hardware of the sight itself). Ya, that would be nice. There DOES appear to be dials there, which SHOULD be the alt, etc (from my knowledge of the Norden sight), but I don't know if they animate and accurately show the real readings. Something to check. All the other dials (the left panel) work... though I still don't understand the two handed airspeed dial.

BTW, not sure if you've seen them (or need them), but there are rather helpful tutorial videos on 'Dart's site. (http://www.darts-page.com/)


Ernst Rohr: Ya, I have B-17! Still love it (graphics, emersion, the unmatch BLAM! of the explosions... and just the whole B-17 experience, which I'm hoping will someday appear in the IL2 series). I'm just put off always by the interface, specifically jumping between views (especially the complex routine you need to do to watch the bombs fall). Change the viewing system, and you have yourself a really nice game (...I would say sim, but many have slammed it for it's aparently lame flight model....whatever).

Oh, I didn't know about the other bomber. I'll have the check that out. In a week, I should have BF/AEP. Can't wait! Just starting to truly get the hang on PF/IL2... I played for a long time before, but only now am I really learning 'proper' techniques and getting into other aspects of the sim. Very cool...

Thanks for your ongoing help once again, Ernst Rohr!

Ernst_Rohr
03-02-2006, 09:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wild Bill: Ah! I was looking for that calculator all day! Thanks, mate!
Okay, I get you now... You mean a permanent display (like on the hardware of the sight itself). Ya, that would be nice. There DOES appear to be dials there, which SHOULD be the alt, etc (from my knowledge of the Norden sight), but I don't know if they animate and accurately show the real readings. Something to check. All the other dials (the left panel) work... though I still don't understand the two handed airspeed dial.

Ernst Rohr: Ya, I have B-17! Still love it (graphics, emersion, the unmatch BLAM! of the explosions... and just the whole B-17 experience, which I'm hoping will someday appear in the IL2 series). I'm just put off always by the interface, specifically jumping between views (especially the complex routine you need to do to watch the bombs fall). Change the viewing system, and you have yourself a really nice game (...I would say sim, but many have slammed it for it's aparently lame flight model....whatever).

Oh, I didn't know about the other bomber. I'll have the check that out. In a week, I should have BF/AEP. Can't wait! Just starting to truly get the hang on PF/IL2... I played for a long time before, but only now am I really learning 'proper' techniques and getting into other aspects of the sim. Very cool...

Thanks for your ongoing help once again, Ernst Rohr! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to help! The really nice thing about that TAS calculator is that it can be minimized off screen with a keystroke, so you dont have it cluttering up your view outside of the sight. It takes a little adjusting to get it postitioned when you first start using it, but after that its cake.

Ladlon, the good news is that B-172 is being redone by the same guys that just did BoB2. They will be giving it a head to toe graphical overhaul, and cleaning up some of the sloppy FM supposedly. I really loved the game, so I am looking forward to the rework as well.

Im also looking forward to the IL2 Pe2 expansion that Oleg and co. are working on, and I would love to see them do something with the Pe-8 heavy, but I dont think thats going to happen.

ladlon
03-02-2006, 10:00 AM
The calculator sounds great. I'm definitely using it!

A new B-17 game?!!!! From the makers of BoB2?!!!!

Mega-drool.....

Any links to info on that? Too early?

Aw, this is going to be SWEET! B-17:Mighty8th was very impressive (to me) for its time... Still holds up pretty good (graphics/audio, etc) in my books. A revised version with today's abilities could be amazing! I'm just totally hooked on the whole heavy bomber atmosphere/experience... The bombsight, the multi-crew, the various gunners, etc. B17:M8 really captured a lot of what I like with their mo-capped crew, gritty surfaces, complex system control (engines, props, bombsight, etc) and convincing crew chatter. Hopefully the new one will go further with that. Actually, I'd be even happy if it was the same game, but with a less awkward system (ex: Jumping to each station using hotkeys was fine... but then you'd have to switch to manual control of that station, rather than it automatically giving you control when you enter it..... and with bombing, you had to jump between screens while setting it up/releasing, then jump to the bombdoor and target views... all very awkward and difficult to do quickly). I just remember cursing a lot as I couldn't hit keys fast enough (and I'd miss the rewarding bomb impact, for example, because of it).

I'm hearing a lot of people talking about the Pe2 pack, but I confess I know nothing really of it.

Oleg is certainly doing an incredible job of updating and patching this product. Very impressive, as is the product itself.

Daytraders
03-02-2006, 10:51 AM
mind you dropping bombs in a online game is a whole different ball game as no waypoints for the auto pilot to use http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but thx for this great guide will bookmark it, thx

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-02-2006, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ladlon:
BTW, not sure if you've seen them (or need them), but there are rather helpful tutorial videos on 'Dart's site. (http://www.darts-page.com/) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep! I downloaded all of his tutorials a while ago. I don't see any for level bombing though... But there are 2 new ones I'm downloading now.

ladlon
03-02-2006, 05:55 PM
Quick question... I got the bombsight calculator, but am a little uncertain how to install it. It appears to be a separate program from PF/IL2. Is that the case? Do you run it separately, and if so, how do you switch between PF and it... Or, if it's supposed to be part of the PF/IL2 program, how do you install it to do that?

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-02-2006, 06:59 PM
Just make a folder for it with your other saved IL2/PF stuff and put it there. Then create a shortcut to it on your desktop or something. I have it in a folder with my IL2 Folder in My Documents that I created. I keep IL2/PF docs, movies, and other stuff there. Then I have a shortcut to it on my desktop.

Run the Bombsight Table tool first. Look at your System Tray (SysTray), and you will see a icon for the program. Right-Click on the icon and you get a menu with Help on how it works. Memorize or write down the key commands that work the program, because you won't be able to get to this menu or help when playing the game.

Startup PF and hop into a bomber. Press the Shift-Pause keys to display/hide the Bombsight Table window. You can't click on the window while playing either. But you can Alt-Tab out to your desktop to click it and move it around.

Prairie_Falcon
03-02-2006, 07:37 PM
Here is a link to an He-111 Level Bombing Mission which can be used as a training mission, and includes tips and instructions for manual level-bombing techniques. I hope you find it helpful.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/50910533/m/5051059714

ladlon
03-02-2006, 07:46 PM
Tried it out... I can't alt-tab out for some reason, but it works nonetheless. Cool. I just have to position it somewhere where it doesn't block things.

Regarding the training videos: This might be the ones you're now looking at, but the airwarefare.com site has guides/videos specific to the B-25 and HE-11, along with many other useful guides/videos...

I was really surprised with some of the things I learned with the Dart videos... like that bombs can skip on the water! Never really considered the delay setting on bombs, but after trying to hit vehicals at VERY low altitude, I suddenly discovered why a delayed bomb detonation would be of interest!

Ernst_Rohr
03-03-2006, 12:04 AM
Bomb delay is a very handy thing for low level dump and runs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you REALLY want to have a fun time with low level bombing, grab an A-20, load it out with Parafrags (you can carry 40!) and then go truck hunting. Rolling down a road packed full of vehicles and dumping 40 Parafrags is just to much fun for words. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And if in the very unlikely even you miss something, you can turn that bird around and finish them with the positively outrageous amount of guns you have packed in the nose. The A-20 is a real gun sled. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ladlon
03-03-2006, 09:55 AM
I didn't know what parafrags were until a few days ago. There's a track included with PF that shows a parafrag run very much like what you just described.

Ya, I've been flying the A10 and B25 almost exclusively.... Haven't even tried most of the other planes. I like bombers, obviously!

Still having trouble with the level bombing... even with the calculator. Can't get a 'locked' bombsight. Most likely errors in my settings. I know I've been having trouble with keeping a steady altitude, for example.

Regarding the calculator: I have my hotkeys for PF (not the calculator) set so the Home/End/PgDown/Insert/Del, etc are used to control the bombsight settings... and the calculator uses PgUp/Down for inputing the angle setting (I beleive)... which is different from what I have set in PF... As a result, it seems like there's a conflict between PF and the calculator. At this point, the calculator works, except for the angle up/down. So, I figure I need to reprogram the hotkeys for PF so they don't conflict or something...

Another thing I noticed, is that the airspeed values jump in strange increments, so often I can't enter the exact value I want.

Got to play with it some more... These are just observations from a few minutes of initial use.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-03-2006, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ladlon:
Ya, I've been flying the A10 and B25 almost exclusively.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A10? Do you mean the P47 maybe? Or are you also flying the A10 in LockOn, which is AWESOME! That's the only plane I fly in Lockon... I made a Lockon Campaign for the A10 called 'When Hogs Fly' with 20 missions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ladlon:
...and the calculator uses PgUp/Down for inputing the angle setting (I beleive)... which is different from what I have set in PF... As a result, it seems like there's a conflict between PF and the calculator. At this point, the calculator works, except for the angle up/down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The calculator does not let you enter the angle at all. It just lets you enter the Altitude and IAS.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ladlon:
Another thing I noticed, is that the airspeed values jump in strange increments, so often I can't enter the exact value I want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, the meters/km/hr is incremented by 10 and feet/mph is derived by that value it appears. But I noticed that even if I adjust the Altitude or IAS up or down just One keystroke, the calculated TAS does not change much at all. So, it's pretty close for what you need I think.

Last night I tried a few more runs... I noticed that after I enter the correct TAS and Altitude into the Bombsight I still get a little sink. But if I just adjust the TAS in the Bombsight up or down One keypress, relock the bombsight automation, and watch the crosshairs, I can fine-tune it to stay close on target just by eyeballing it. I still need a lot of practice though. Last night the closest I came was about 100 feet to my target. My bombs dropped pretty short, then walked closer to the target, but still didn't make it.

Daytraders
03-03-2006, 11:48 AM
also what i dont understand is in manual it says and i quote "to get true airspeed it can be obtained from the speed gauge when in no cockpit view" but i done test and at lets say 2500 metres and the cockpit indicated is 300km/h so no cockpit should show 350km/h but it does not it shows the same 300km/h am im doing something wrong ? thx

ladlon
03-03-2006, 11:58 AM
Maybe I mean the A20... Oops! I liked it because it has the same kind of B17 bomber feel I crave.

Heheh, ya, I use the A10 on LockOn almost exclusively as well! Lots of fun... plus (sadly) the only real AirToGround plane in LockOn (...which was a real disappointment, as I avoid AirToAir, since I completely blow at it). The F-15 is nice too, though the interior looks oddly un-photorealistic, which cheapens things for me.... (Got to see if someone did a better interior). As for the Russian planes, they're cool, but I'm CLUELESS when it comes to the HUD and the buttons... Confusing enough in English. So, I avoid those (sadly).

Re: Calculator... Ya, that makes sense, it should just deal with the IAS/TAS conversion... What the heck is the Distance/Wide thing?

Sounds like you're slowly making your way towards a direct hit! I'm still way off... Actually, one of the biggest 'errors' I'm dealing with is the horizontal alignment of my plane with the target... Always quite a ways off, so I can never really even get close.

I've been eyeballing the Speed setting so far (until I get the calculator working for me)... I just move the settings 'live' until there's no drift... Kind of works...

Strange... You would think (in real life) they would have the Nordon sight hooked up to the cockpits altimeter so you wouldn't have to manually enter the height...

Well, I'll be continuing to play around with that. I don't mind all this experimenting and 'trouble'... as it'll make the first hit all the more victorious (...and having it do it all automatically would be kind of boring anyway). I have that same opinion when playing Silent Hunter III... I actually WANT to do all the calculating (...as long as it doesn't totally hurt my brain). Makes it all the more interesting and challenging.

Daytraders
03-03-2006, 03:25 PM
"I've been eyeballing the Speed setting so far (until I get the calculator working for me)... I just move the settings 'live' until there's no drift... Kind of works..."

where u get the true airspeed from live as both in and out of cockpit shows the same speed and thats wrong.


so no1 else notice the bug above then ? as u need true airspeed for input, so how you guys get it if you dont use the out of cockpit thing ? i mean before you used this software addon.

Ernst_Rohr
03-03-2006, 03:36 PM
I used to flip outside the pit for the TAS reading, but I dont like breaking the immersion, so I have used the calculator ever since.

Ladlon, yep, the A-20 is a hella lot of fun! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I still manage to come back shot full of holes, mud moving in that bad boy brings out my aggessive side, which probably isnt a good thing.....

If you still having issues with altitude and positioning;

1) line up on the target
2) If the crosshairs are off, kick off the level stabilizer and GENTLY apply rudder
3) release the rudder and reapply the level stablizer
4) Let the plane shake out and come back to level flight
5) re-evaluate the crosshair position and correct again if need be.

If your bombing vehicles or ships, your best bet is to get line up with their axis of travel (match course) and aim a little long. The combination of drift and target movement should walk the bombs through them, but any lateral movement will run the run.

Level bombing ships is VERY hard due to this!

If your having altitude problems, remember to trim the AC up or drop flaps.

Another trick is if its very gradual loss, and you cant seem to correct with trim, bump up your speed.

Another trick is to lower the altitude a hundred feet or so, and let it adjust itself. Most bombers do experience some "sink" when level stablizer is engaged, so plan for a little adjustment.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-03-2006, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daytraders:
so no1 else notice the bug above then ? as u need true airspeed for input, so how you guys get it if you dont use the out of cockpit thing ? i mean before you used this software addon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I haven't look at that yet. I've just been using the Bombsight Table tool.

But Ernst_Rohr said this:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
That TAS calculator is a godsend, and I use it all the time. There are other places to find the TAS, but it involves jumping out of the view to the cockpitless mode (breaks immersion for me, so I dont do it) or from the pilots position in SOME aircraft. That little TAS program is quicker, and it does make up for some of the shortcomings of the bombsight.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daytraders
03-03-2006, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I used to flip outside the pit for the TAS reading, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but that dont work anymore for me has it been changed in a recent patch, the speeds should be different but are exactly the same for me, can you please do me a favour and check to see if it works for you, just try cockpit 300kmh and then go outside it shows the same for me and it should show 350kmh i thought that is true speed. thx

HE111 im useing by the way

ladlon
03-03-2006, 04:33 PM
Daytraders: When I am eyeballing it, I'm just starting with the IAS, observing the direction of the drift, and adjusting the bombsights speed setting until the drift stops... It's a way to do it without actually knowing the TAS. Not the most accurate method, by any means, but certainly one way to do it until you get the proper TAS.

WildBill: I'm a Maverick fan (the weapon)... ALways loved the whole tv targeting thing (though in LockOn, it's far more easy to just zoom in on your HUD, as zooming/panning to the MFD, and figuring out what you're looking at is kinda brutal). Recently had a great time targeting moving vehicals, firing a Maverick, and watching the weapon slam down onto the vehical just as I'm approaching it.... Very satisfying.

BTW, HOORAY!!!! I JUST RECEIVED MY COPY OF FB/AEP!!!!! WOO-HOOO!!!!!

(Now I get to see if the whole merged install thing works, or introduces any problems)


BTW Part II: Yesterday I tried my first carrier landing... Didn't really view any tutorials or anything... just kinda wing'd it... Got it on my first try! Sweet.... Oddly enough, I've had my share of rather nasty landings on regular runways (...odd, as I normally can land well most times before). Totally blown away by the physics modeling and fragmentation you can witness if your plane cartwheels on landing. Beautifully done!

WWSensei
03-04-2006, 09:44 AM
The method I use can be done in pit and with no IAS-&gt;TAS translation. All you need to do is get the altitude right.

When you engage the automatic bombsight watch the crosshairs. If they are drifting past the target then you need to increase the bombsight speed input. If they drift below the target you decrease the bombsight speed. Adjust accordingly until the sight no longer moves.

With Level Stabilizer on you can adjust heading with rudder trim for finite adjustments.

Using this method you can even hit a moving ship or convoy.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-04-2006, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
When you engage the automatic bombsight watch the crosshairs. If they are drifting past the target then you need to increase the bombsight speed input. If they drift below the target you decrease the bombsight speed. Adjust accordingly until the sight no longer moves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's what I was doing the other night. But I wasn't sure if I had to toggle Off Bombsight automation first, then turn it back On? It seemed like I could leave it On and make those adjustments...

ladlon
03-04-2006, 11:46 AM
That's the method I was trying to describe earlier... Just keep adjusting the speed, and watch the effect on the drifting.

Again, not the most precise, but if you don't happen to know the TAS for whatever reason, it's one way to eyeball it.

(I can't wait to finish patching up FB/AEP/PF so I can hop in a bomber and try again! FB looks nice!)

WWSensei
03-04-2006, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wild.Bill.Kelso:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
When you engage the automatic bombsight watch the crosshairs. If they are drifting past the target then you need to increase the bombsight speed input. If they drift below the target you decrease the bombsight speed. Adjust accordingly until the sight no longer moves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's what I was doing the other night. But I wasn't sure if I had to toggle Off Bombsight automation first, then turn it back On? It seemed like I could leave it On and make those adjustments... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Leave it on while making adjustments until it stops moving. If you turn off the automation you are no longer calibrating it. Making adjustments with the automation turned off is useless.

If, by the time you've adjusted and it's stopped moving but it's past the target, THEN you disable automation move the crosshair down to the target and re-engage. If you haven't changed throttle settings it should keep still. If not adjust again as needed.

As far as being precise it is not less precise than doing IAS-&gt;TAS conversion. I actually have more success using this method.

I learned the technique from an actual B-29 bombadier as they used a similar technique with the Norden as well.

I first wrote about it in my He111 Ops Guide back when the He111 was first introduced.

http://www.wingwalkers.org/vault/He111_Operations_Guide.pdf

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-04-2006, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wild.Bill.Kelso:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
When you engage the automatic bombsight watch the crosshairs. If they are drifting past the target then you need to increase the bombsight speed input. If they drift below the target you decrease the bombsight speed. Adjust accordingly until the sight no longer moves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's what I was doing the other night. But I wasn't sure if I had to toggle Off Bombsight automation first, then turn it back On? It seemed like I could leave it On and make those adjustments... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Leave it on while making adjustments until it stops moving. If you turn off the automation you are no longer calibrating it. Making adjustments with the automation turned off is useless.

If, by the time you've adjusted and it's stopped moving but it's past the target, THEN you disable automation move the crosshair down to the target and re-engage. If you haven't changed throttle settings it should keep still. If not adjust again as needed.

As far as being precise it is not less precise than doing IAS-&gt;TAS conversion. I actually have more success using this method.

I learned the technique from an actual B-29 bombadier as they used a similar technique with the Norden as well.

I first wrote about it in my He111 Ops Guide back when the He111 was first introduced.

http://www.wingwalkers.org/vault/He111_Operations_Guide.pdf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks. In Ernst_Rohr's instructions on the first page of this thread, he had steps where he entered the TAS and Altitude long before the bomb run, and before he said to engage the Bombsight Automation. So, you are saying this is useless?

So, I can adjust the TAS and Altitude with Bombsight Automation on, but if my Crosshairs go above the target, then I need to turn Bombsight Automation off, and adjust the Angle back down in front of the target and re-engage it. That makes sense if I understand things correctly. When the Bombsight Automation is On, it is tracking the target by adjusting the Angle automatically. So, I have to turn it off to Manually adjust the Angle below the target, and then turn it back on again. Is taht correct?

I was turning Bombsight Automation Off every time I had to adjust the Angle, Altitude and TAS before, then turn it back on. That was a hassle. I'll try it tonight by adjusting the Altitude and TAS with the Bombsight Automation On. I should be able to tweak this much better that way...

WWSensei
03-04-2006, 10:27 PM
Well, entering the altitude and approximate TAS long before your run is still smart. For example, I know before hand I'll be hitting the target at 6000meters and about 300 IAS kph. So before I even start the engines I dial in the altitude to 6000 and airspeed to around 340-360kph. I even scroll up the nagle to about 65 degrees.

I believe you have it down. When bombsight automation is ON the desire is for the crosshiars to be steady and non-moving in relation to the target. Once automation is on, the first thing to set is the altitude. Did you climb a bit high or drift a bit low? If so, adjust that first.

OK, automation is on, look through the bombsight...if your crosshairs are moving past (ie "above") in relation to the desired aimpoint then INCREASE the bombsight airspeed until the corsshairs stop moving in relation to the target.

If during this adjustment time your crosshairs had drifted way past your target before they stopped moving then disengage auto bombisght, lower the angle until they are on target and re-engage. If you adjusted correctly the crosshairs should stay on the target and you can hold that until they drop. Just keep watching the crosshairs.

On a typical run for me I usually have to make this adjustment a couple of times because as you get closer you can tell any drifting easier.

There is no need to turn automation off to adjust any of the inputs. I only turn it off if I am going to be making LARGE input differences.

Once you are in automation mode any changes to altitude should be in tens of meters, or speed just +/- 20 kph or so. These are fine tuning adjustments not full range changes.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
03-05-2006, 07:56 AM
Got it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks.

Daytraders
03-05-2006, 09:13 AM
thx for all this great infomation lads, so when u start automation when the crosshairs are on the target the crosshairs should track the target point until bombs drop correct ?, if all setting correctly inputted i mean, if not the crosshair will be off the actually target correct ?, i did not realise you could make adjustments in real time while automation is on, will have to try. thx

IKG26Redcoat
03-20-2006, 05:33 AM
For a long time I used the charts for TAS speeds, but for a while now, Ive been getting to alt, let the speed settle, and tracking an object on the ground, tree, road, river whatever, adjusting the TAS untill it holds the crosshairs steady.
Id noticed that with diferent bomb loadouts, I was getting diferent results with the same alt and cruise speeds, ie bombs dropped long, short.
Tracking some reference on the ground beforehand has really improved my hit rate. The only thing to watch your site angle, to make sure you dont pickle off your bombs by accident.

Daytraders
03-20-2006, 10:29 AM
but is the B25 bug still there ? where you have to take 5 0r 10% of the tas for that bomber,or has it been fixed. thx

Crash_Moses
03-20-2006, 10:41 AM
I've been practicing my level bombing quite a bit the last few days and it seems to me as if the bug is indeed gone. I won't be 100% convinced until I fly a few more practice missions at different heights and speeds to make sure. I'll post here with definitive results.

One thing I DID notice though is that when level bombing with the Betty I had to keep my target just to the right of the crosshairs. If I'm bombing a ship the left edge just touching the crosshairs seems to do the trick.

But with the PBJ (B-25 for you landlubbers) centering the target in the crosshairs worked fine.

ladlon
03-20-2006, 09:08 PM
I do the 'track a ground object' method too (as I still can't do the whole conversion thing properly).

I somehow keep managing to not have bombs when I get over the target! I must be accidentally releasing them while I'm tracking ground objects to get the proper TAS setting. That's always a letdown!... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Crash_Moses
03-20-2006, 09:23 PM
I misspoke. Did a bunch of test runs with the Betty and B-25 both. Different altitudes, speeds, etc. The TAS discrepancy is still there. Sorry, lads.

Daytraders
03-21-2006, 08:40 AM
thx for confirming m8