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View Full Version : Best new fighter: K4 vs Tempest vs Do-335



gx-warspite
02-10-2006, 09:14 AM
The "best" ranking is focused on a plane's capabilities, and especially on the capabilities it adds to its side. Feel free to disagree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Bronze: K-4. Not much of an improvement, certainly not what the reds were fearing (seriously, it's only 10% more boost, compared to 33% more for the Spit 25lb).

Silver: Do-335. It's the fastest and most heavily armed of the three, with excellent roll at all speeds and quite good climb for such a large fighter, but that's the problem: it's a large fighter. Do-335 is the biggest fighter-class target right now. That rear engine gets knocked out easily too.

Gold: Tempest. Almost as fast as the Do-335 on deck (though not up high), it's going to give Dora pilots nightmares. I can see a lot of Pony jocks switching rides to this simply because of the vastly superior firepower. I fly P-51s and Doras myself and I think I'll trade Mustangs for the Tempest. Well, I'll keep the Mk III but that's it.


The Tempest just adds much more to the reds than the Do-335 or K-4 do to the blues. Previously, late-war red planes could either be fast (Mustangs) or have firepower, but not both. The Tempest is really going to force Doras to fight more honestly and not rely on sheer deck speed, IMO. The Do-335 is just a Ta-152 with more deck speed, but it's such an incredibly big target and that rear engine is vulnerable I don't think I'll be flying it. The K-4 1.98 is not that much better than the regular model. Essentially, neither new blue uberfighter adds a new dimension to his side, while the Tempest does IMO.

gx-warspite
02-10-2006, 09:14 AM
The "best" ranking is focused on a plane's capabilities, and especially on the capabilities it adds to its side. Feel free to disagree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Bronze: K-4. Not much of an improvement, certainly not what the reds were fearing (seriously, it's only 10% more boost, compared to 33% more for the Spit 25lb).

Silver: Do-335. It's the fastest and most heavily armed of the three, with excellent roll at all speeds and quite good climb for such a large fighter, but that's the problem: it's a large fighter. Do-335 is the biggest fighter-class target right now. That rear engine gets knocked out easily too.

Gold: Tempest. Almost as fast as the Do-335 on deck (though not up high), it's going to give Dora pilots nightmares. I can see a lot of Pony jocks switching rides to this simply because of the vastly superior firepower. I fly P-51s and Doras myself and I think I'll trade Mustangs for the Tempest. Well, I'll keep the Mk III but that's it.


The Tempest just adds much more to the reds than the Do-335 or K-4 do to the blues. Previously, late-war red planes could either be fast (Mustangs) or have firepower, but not both. The Tempest is really going to force Doras to fight more honestly and not rely on sheer deck speed, IMO. The Do-335 is just a Ta-152 with more deck speed, but it's such an incredibly big target and that rear engine is vulnerable I don't think I'll be flying it. The K-4 1.98 is not that much better than the regular model. Essentially, neither new blue uberfighter adds a new dimension to his side, while the Tempest does IMO.

BirdieNum-nums
02-10-2006, 09:38 AM
I fully agree. The Tempest fills a very big hole in the allies' ****nal. And yes, the Do, as I've mentioned in an earlier reply elsewhere is a huge target, in spite of its otherwise generous attributes. Yes, it does have a vulnerable rear engine. It surely doesn't as much of a chance on the furball intensive dogfighting servers of HyperLobby, but it will have a heckuva career on Historia or other more reality driven servers, with Wonder Woman view turned OFF, thank you very much.

The Do is one of the stand-out champs in the game and it will be both loved and hated because of it. Poor ol' Anteater!! What did he ever do to hurt anyone? Never even killed ANYTHING... EVER... apparently.

Cheers,

Birdi Num-nums

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 09:42 AM
Disagree compleely.

New best in my opinion is the new Spit. Tempests are not nearly as dangerous as it is. Tempest CANNOT outmaneuver german fighters and is not that faster. Also is a very big target.

New Spit is a perfect close in fighter now.

WOLFMondo
02-10-2006, 09:50 AM
gx-warspite, the deck speed of this Tempest is inferior to th Dora. Had it been a SabreIIB or a IIA at 11lbs, a far more realistic boost pressure then it would have been faster on the deck. Try 6000ft if you want to actually outrun a Dora.

p1ngu666
02-10-2006, 10:43 AM
do335 is a great jabo tho

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 10:49 AM
The worse, red players seems to really think FW pilots only weapon is deck speed. Yesterday I saw dozens of times Tempests that at any sign of danger simply wen to deck at max speed. Almost ALL were shot down.. some by pacient guys that kept high to have better true airspeed. Other by people that dived together than simply went for long range shots since there was a huge target standing still 400 meters in front of them ...

I even outran a tempest in a FW190 A8!! Because I had engine cool enough to close rads for enough time to chase him.

Tempest is not magical!!! Neither is the FW or any other plane!! (well maybe the Spitfire).

I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires...

The main danger in tempest are its guns. It feels exactly the same as being targeted by a FW.

robban75
02-10-2006, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Try 6000ft if you want to actually outrun a Dora. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that's because the D-9 is more than 20km/h too slow at that altitude.

robban75
02-10-2006, 10:59 AM
And I agree on the new Spitfire, it's definitely the greatest threat to the blues. It has no problem out accelerating a Dora, and its climb rate is, well, nothing short off stellar! Almost 28m/sec from SL to at least 1000m. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Needless to say, it will catch anything in the vertical!

Doug_Thompson
02-10-2006, 11:14 AM
I think gx-warspite was looking at truly "new" aircraft, and the Spitfire isn't exactly new.

With that said, though, I totally agree with the folks who say the boosted Spitfire is biggest news in the patch. The thing's wicked.

gx-warsite also got it right when he said that the patch helps the Western Allies out a whole lot more than it helps the Axis: German, Japanese or Italian. The much-dreaded "Luftwhiner superplanes" aren't nearly the fighter the boosted Spit is.

I love the Do335, but p1ngu666 pegged it right. It's a great Jabo, not a great fighter. I had some doubts after p1ngu666 mentioned it as a Jabo on another thread, but then tried it out.

As others have mentioned, the Do 335's an enormous target. It's maneuverable for a big plane but is still much better off flying straight and keeping its speed up. The rear engine may be particularly vulnerable, but the forward engine isn't exactly immune. Wherever you hit this plane, you're probably hitting an engine or the pilot if you're hitting the fuselage at all. No "iron tail" problem here.

The boosted Bf 109 left me cold, frankly. The "Raiden" is OK, but certainly no uber-plane. I like it better now, getting over a bad first impression. I have to admit that it is nice to shoot at a Grumman and actually see some effect.

The Italian planes are beautifully rendered and are very nice turn fighters. However, once again, they don't compare to the excitement and responsivness of flying the boosted Spit.

The new Mosquito is sweet, too.

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
I think gx-warspite was looking at truly "new" aircraft, and the Spitfire isn't exactly new.

With that said, though, I totally agree with the folks who say the boosted Spitfire is biggest news in the patch. The thing's wicked.

gx-warsite also got it right when he said that the patch helps the Western Allies out a whole lot more than it helps the Axis: German, Japanese or Italian. The much-dreaded "Luftwhiner superplanes" aren't nearly the fighter the boosted Spit is.

I love the Do335, but p1ngu666 pegged it right. It's a great Jabo, not a great fighter. As others have mentioned, it's an enormous target. It's maneuverable for a big plane but is still much better off flying straight and keeping its speed up. The rear engine may be particularly vulnerable, but the forward engine isn't exactly immune. Wherever you hit this plane, you're probably hitting an engine or the pilot if you're hitting the fuselage at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

don't think so, since he put the K4 C3 in the 3rd place.

Doug_Thompson
02-10-2006, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:


don't think so, since he put the K4 C3 in the 3rd place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but that was justified by the fits and seizures people were having before the boosted Bf 109 got here. The issue had to be addressed.

Kocur_
02-10-2006, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires...

The main danger in tempest are its guns. It feels exactly the same as being targeted by a FW. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Agreed! In my first online 4.03 tryout, while flying Raiden I easily killed two Tempests, which pilots though, they were flying "gigant Spitfires" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Seems to me that Tempest's proof of proper modelling might be its... unpopularity - equal to Fw190's or P-51, compared with say, Spitfires or Las.

p1ngu666
02-10-2006, 12:01 PM
the do335 is a decent fighter imo, i havent flown it too much, but if u have height/speed then its really deadly, because it retains energy and zoomclimbs really well. u can retain the advantage as it should i guess http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nearly everyone here is fighter centered, but its jabo performance is truely stellar

jasonbirder
02-10-2006, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't fly online much...so apologies for the impertinent question...but do a significant percentage of online flyers really choose their ride based solely on what they think is the "best" plane to get most kills rather than historic fit/favourite ride/personal preferance/looks/quirkiness...

Doug_Thompson
02-10-2006, 12:16 PM
Re: Do 225 retaining energy

Texan and I are having a good discussion about this on another thread, p1ngu666. People think of the Do 335 as a fast plane. That's understandable, but it's outstanding €" and dangerous €" characteristic in a fight is its climb.

It's not that it's climb rate is so good. I don't even know what the figures for that are. It's that the plane simply does not want to go down. You have to really push it into a dive. With both those big engines running fast, it tends to be grabbing altitude all the time.

Even in a tight turn, it bleeds off speed but not height.

It's zoom climbing abilities are great. Dive hard, pull up, set those big engines on WEP and the thing can make a near-vertical climb.

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Don't fly online much...so apologies for the impertinent question...but do a significant percentage of online flyers really choose their ride based solely on what they think is the "best" plane to get most kills rather than historic fit/favourite ride/personal preferance/looks/quirkiness... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

unfortunately yes.

I try to stick to reasonable parameters (I use FW190A8 instead of A9 in WC and so), also some other people too. But MOST will go for the best plane.

MystiqBlackCat
02-10-2006, 12:55 PM
I am amazed that you fellas forgot to include the new FW190a5 1.65ATA. I think that this plane will have the biggest effect for the Luftwaffe in any scenario before mid to late '44. This includes alot of maps online.

Secondly for Blues are th Italian birds because they will make the Med missions more feasable and give them some variety, not saying that they are uber but that they will give those scenarios some flavor, say Maranera maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MystiqBlackCat:
I am amazed that you fellas forgot to include the new FW190a5 1.65ATA. I think that this plane will have the biggest effect for the Luftwaffe in any scenario before mid to late '44. This includes alot of maps online.

Secondly for Blues are th Italian birds because they will make the Med missions more feasable and give them some variety, not saying that they are uber but that they will give those scenarios some flavor, say Maranera maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a good inclusion but is NOWHERE near the difference that new Spitfire gives. Look at my post about acceleration test. Starting from 250 kph a Spit 25lb outruns Dora and Tempest!!!

Kuna_
02-10-2006, 01:15 PM
Mustang 3 is the new best, not those three. Unfortunately it isn't new fighter so it kinda don't belong in this group.

p1ngu666
02-10-2006, 01:18 PM
there not late war, so they dont count http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ploughman
02-10-2006, 01:27 PM
The K4 shouldn't be there neither then, as the 4.02 K4 had 1.98 ata performance +.

fordfan25
02-10-2006, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
The K4 shouldn't be there neither then, as the 4.02 K4 had 1.98 ata performance +. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

keep that talk to a wisper we dont want any one posting pictures of clowns now do we http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

gx-warspite
02-10-2006, 01:31 PM
Sorry, yes, I forgot to include the new 25lb Spit. It was going to get my "most improved" mention, but I don't think it's dangerous to the kind of aircraft I fly (Doras, Mustangs). What extra speed and power it has, is - like the K-4 - greatly wasted by its high-speed control problems. As a Dora pilot, I'm not really worried about it. I supppose 109 pilots have a lot to sweat though. It would be VERY dangerous if it had a clipped wing.

For those saying that the Tempest is slower than the Dora - that may or may not be true (I've only done sloppy testing which results in ~610 on the deck for both). The difference is so small, however, that the Tempest is truly frightening. Excessive maneuvering while running in the Dora, or the Tempest starting with just a few hundred feet more altitude will result in a very nervous Dora pilot. The Tempest is also an excellent gun platform, not suffering from recoil as much as most Hispano armed aircraft.

Name me another blazing fast, cannon-armed fighter that can maneuver at high speed in the red ****nal. The C-Hog is fast, but more G-14 fast than Dora-fast. The Mustang has only 50s. They're scary enough and will certainly slow you down, but as a Mustang pilot myself, I know it's as often as not a Spit following me as I chase a Dora who gets the kill once I force the Dora to break or slow down.

I'm willing to bet that on late-war western front servers, the Tempest will help restore the balance.


The 190 1.65 I didn't mention because I haven't flown much in the way of mid-war servers in the past year or so. I'm completely clueless about how Antons match up with La-5s, Yaks, e-wing Spits and P-47s. There's just been too many patches (and beers :P) between now and late 2004 for me to speak with any authority on the subject.

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gx-warspite:
Sorry, yes, I forgot to include the new 25lb Spit. It was going to get my "most improved" mention, but I don't think it's dangerous to the kind of aircraft I fly (Doras, Mustangs). What extra speed and power it has, is - like the K-4 - greatly wasted by its high-speed control problems. As a Dora pilot, I'm not really worried about it. I supppose 109 pilots have a lot to sweat though. It would be VERY dangerous if it had a clipped wing.

For those saying that the Tempest is slower than the Dora - that may or may not be true (I've only done sloppy testing which results in ~610 on the deck for both). The difference is so small, however, that the Tempest is truly frightening. Excessive maneuvering while running in the Dora, or the Tempest starting with just a few hundred feet more altitude will result in a very nervous Dora pilot. The Tempest is also an excellent gun platform, not suffering from recoil as much as most Hispano armed aircraft.

Name me another blazing fast, cannon-armed fighter that can maneuver at high speed in the red ****nal. The C-Hog is fast, but more G-14 fast than Dora-fast. The Mustang has only 50s. They're scary enough and will certainly slow you down, but as a Mustang pilot myself, I know it's as often as not a Spit following me as I chase a Dora who gets the kill once I force the Dora to break or slow down.

I'm willing to bet that on late-war western front servers, the Tempest will help restore the balance.


The 190 1.65 I didn't mention because I haven't flown much in the way of mid-war servers in the past year or so. I'm completely clueless about how Antons match up with La-5s, Yaks, e-wing Spits and P-47s. There's just been too many patches (and beers :P) between now and late 2004 for me to speak with any authority on the subject. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give a look at my data on acceleration. Your Dora and Mustang WILL be outrun by the 25 lb spit unless the chase start already above 530 kph. If it start at 300 kph.. you may hit higher speed. But The Spit will be at 550 while you are stillat 510 kph

danjama
02-10-2006, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Disagree compleely.

New best in my opinion is the new Spit. Tempests are not nearly as dangerous as it is. Tempest CANNOT outmaneuver german fighters and is not that faster. Also is a very big target.

New Spit is a perfect close in fighter now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

georgeo76
02-10-2006, 02:04 PM
Your all wrong. I would argue that it's the Mc's or the Mosquito that adds the most to the game.

Now I understand that on the uber'44 servers, those BostieSpits, and superKs will make all the difference.

But we all know that the real fun to be had in this game all happens before 1943.

Mc's: effectively add a new Air force and theatre to the game. The possibilities are endless.

Mosquito: Probably the most interesting AC in the patch. Screaming Speed and firepower that will kill anything big enough to die. Necessary to round out the early RAF.

gx-warspite
02-10-2006, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:

Give a look at my data on acceleration. Your Dora and Mustang WILL be outrun by the 25 lb spit unless the chase start already above 530 kph. If it start at 300 kph.. you may hit higher speed. But The Spit will be at 550 while you are stillat 510 kph </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are correct, but I don't know of too many competent Dora drivers who get that slow. I even climb at 400kph.

jimDG
02-10-2006, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Disagree compleely.

New best in my opinion is the new Spit. Tempests are not nearly as dangerous as it is. Tempest CANNOT outmaneuver german fighters and is not that faster. Also is a very big target.

New Spit is a perfect close in fighter now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree. Outmaneuvers bf109 easily IME. Its like saying that an I-16 can outmaneuver a bf109 -if its only about turning - then yes. if its about getting gun solutions - then no.

ploughman
02-10-2006, 02:41 PM
Spit doesn't have to be a turn fighter but if it is it does it very well, as long as you add a vertical element to deal with the e-retention (a Doolittle turn?), and with the extra 10-30+mph the 25 lb boost gives it it is no longer something you can just run away from if you're a Luftie, sometimes you might even have to think about if you can. It accelerates very well, doesn't overheat easily, retains e, zoom climbs, it even dives under power now so bobbing away isn't quite the option it used to be. The Hispanos are very good for getting a hit and making it matter, always have been, too bad about the .303 pea shooters but their useful for psychological warfare I suppose, a pair or .50s would be better but what can you do?

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Disagree compleely.

New best in my opinion is the new Spit. Tempests are not nearly as dangerous as it is. Tempest CANNOT outmaneuver german fighters and is not that faster. Also is a very big target.

New Spit is a perfect close in fighter now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree. Outmaneuvers bf109 easily IME. Its like saying that an I-16 can outmaneuver a bf109 -if its only about turning - then yes. if its about getting gun solutions - then no. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am having no problems outmaneuvering Tempests in any FW, so as the few attempts I made in 109 against it. While flying with Tempest is much harder to defeat a german fighter this way.

The mossie is a plane tha impressed me on nothing. really. It is obfuscated by new A5 in 43, but is not bad. Only got shot down by one until now (didn ´t saw it comming), all other tiems I was able to outmaneuver it in FW...


New Spit is dangerous because it is new king on main attribute on close combat,.. acceleration, If you want to fight it you really need to keep above 450 kph.. at LEAST. Or be in a 109....

gx-warspite
02-10-2006, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
Spit doesn't have to be a turn fighter but if it is it does it very well, as long as you add a vertical element to deal with the e-retention (a Doolittle turn?), and with the extra 10-30+mph the 25 lb boost gives it it is no longer something you can just run away from if you're a Luftie, sometimes you might even have to think about if you can. It accelerates very well, doesn't overheat easily, retains e, zoom climbs, it even dives under power now so bobbing away isn't quite the option it used to be. The Hispanos are very good for getting a hit and making it matter, always have been, too bad about the .303 pea shooters but their useful for psychological warfare I suppose, a pair or .50s would be better but what can you do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that the 25lb Spit is more dangerous, but I don't think it's a *significantly* greater threat to the Luft - at least not 190s. Doras still do over 600kph on the deck, I haven't managed over 575 in the 25lb Spit. Doras will roll very well at those speeds, the Spit doesn't.

109s will probably be in more trouble, especially at altitude where the Spit performs best. On deck I know a K-4 and probably G-10 and G-14 can get away, but up high where the Spit's extra drag isn't noticeable I think it'll be an interesting contest - especially since 109s won't be outmaneuvering them like 190s could.

It really depends on what people fly. I honestly think that the attractiveness of the 109 platform is seriously affected by the 25lb Spit, just as the Dora is much more vulnerable now with the Tempest around. When I fly blue I'm a D-9 pilot so no wonder I rate the Tempest as more dangerous than the Spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gx-warspite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
Spit doesn't have to be a turn fighter but if it is it does it very well, as long as you add a vertical element to deal with the e-retention (a Doolittle turn?), and with the extra 10-30+mph the 25 lb boost gives it it is no longer something you can just run away from if you're a Luftie, sometimes you might even have to think about if you can. It accelerates very well, doesn't overheat easily, retains e, zoom climbs, it even dives under power now so bobbing away isn't quite the option it used to be. The Hispanos are very good for getting a hit and making it matter, always have been, too bad about the .303 pea shooters but their useful for psychological warfare I suppose, a pair or .50s would be better but what can you do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that the 25lb Spit is more dangerous, but I don't think it's a *significantly* greater threat to the Luft - at least not 190s. Doras still do over 600kph on the deck, I haven't managed over 575 in the 25lb Spit. Doras will roll very well at those speeds, the Spit doesn't.

109s will probably be in more trouble, especially at altitude where the Spit performs best. On deck I know a K-4 and probably G-10 and G-14 can get away, but up high where the Spit's extra drag isn't noticeable I think it'll be an interesting contest - especially since 109s won't be outmaneuvering them like 190s could.

It really depends on what people fly. I honestly think that the attractiveness of the 109 platform is seriously affected by the 25lb Spit, just as the Dora is much more vulnerable now with the Tempest around. When I fly blue I'm a D-9 pilot so no wonder I rate the Tempest as more dangerous than the Spit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is.. Spit will kill you before you reah a speed higher than it can reach. So you must always be very very fast, but reaeealy fast now if you want to survive without cover.

ploughman
02-10-2006, 03:17 PM
Blue's got B & Z worked out, plus team play. Maybe the Tempest'll make Red work out some good teamplay and B & Z tactics too, not that we did with the P-47M though.

jimDG
02-10-2006, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Disagree compleely.

New best in my opinion is the new Spit. Tempests are not nearly as dangerous as it is. Tempest CANNOT outmaneuver german fighters and is not that faster. Also is a very big target.

New Spit is a perfect close in fighter now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree. Outmaneuvers bf109 easily IME. Its like saying that an I-16 can outmaneuver a bf109 -if its only about turning - then yes. if its about getting gun solutions - then no. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am having no problems outmaneuvering Tempests in any FW, so as the few attempts I made in 109 against it. While flying with Tempest is much harder to defeat a german fighter this way.

The mossie is a plane tha impressed me on nothing. really. It is obfuscated by new A5 in 43, but is not bad. Only got shot down by one until now (didn ´t saw it comming), all other tiems I was able to outmaneuver it in FW...


New Spit is dangerous because it is new king on main attribute on close combat,.. acceleration, If you want to fight it you really need to keep above 450 kph.. at LEAST. Or be in a 109.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tempest can shoot at any angle - with 4x20mm and 20sec of firing time - put the stream acros the bf109 path, let it fly through it. The bf109 cant - it needs to be close to the enemies 6 for effective kill. So, the tempest gets much more gun solutions in the early stages of any dogfight (before it has gotten down to tree top level and 300 km/h).

Tazzers1968
02-10-2006, 04:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
The worse, red players seems to really think FW pilots only weapon is deck speed. Yesterday I saw dozens of times Tempests that at any sign of danger simply wen to deck at max speed. Almost ALL were shot down.. some by pacient guys that kept high to have better true airspeed. Other by people that dived together than simply went for long range shots since there was a huge target standing still 400 meters in front of them ...

I even outran a tempest in a FW190 A8!! Because I had engine cool enough to close rads for enough time to chase him.

Tempest is not magical!!! Neither is the FW or any other plane!! (well maybe the Spitfire).

I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires...

The main danger in tempest are its guns. It feels exactly the same as being targeted by a FW. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They will kick the habit if they stick at it long enough. If Spitfires is what you are used to then Spitfire tactics you will use until you learn how to fly the Tempest as you should. It doesn't make them incompetent. Not that you implied as much of course.

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Disagree compleely.

New best in my opinion is the new Spit. Tempests are not nearly as dangerous as it is. Tempest CANNOT outmaneuver german fighters and is not that faster. Also is a very big target.

New Spit is a perfect close in fighter now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree. Outmaneuvers bf109 easily IME. Its like saying that an I-16 can outmaneuver a bf109 -if its only about turning - then yes. if its about getting gun solutions - then no. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am having no problems outmaneuvering Tempests in any FW, so as the few attempts I made in 109 against it. While flying with Tempest is much harder to defeat a german fighter this way.

The mossie is a plane tha impressed me on nothing. really. It is obfuscated by new A5 in 43, but is not bad. Only got shot down by one until now (didn ´t saw it comming), all other tiems I was able to outmaneuver it in FW...


New Spit is dangerous because it is new king on main attribute on close combat,.. acceleration, If you want to fight it you really need to keep above 450 kph.. at LEAST. Or be in a 109.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tempest can shoot at any angle - with 4x20mm and 20sec of firing time - put the stream acros the bf109 path, let it fly through it. The bf109 cant - it needs to be close to the enemies 6 for effective kill. So, the tempest gets much more gun solutions in the early stages of any dogfight (before it has gotten down to tree top level and 300 km/h). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All that any FW can do too... and that is the way FW pilots kill 9 in 10 kills. So.. tempest is not at any advantage here... Is is exactly the same role as FW.. but it is less maneuverable than one.

Until now.. when I see a tempest online if it is not behind me.. i think.. great a target... When I see a Spit 25 lb .. if I am not behind it.. I think.. "#!@&*$@!*$!@*"

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tazzers1968:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
The worse, red players seems to really think FW pilots only weapon is deck speed. Yesterday I saw dozens of times Tempests that at any sign of danger simply wen to deck at max speed. Almost ALL were shot down.. some by pacient guys that kept high to have better true airspeed. Other by people that dived together than simply went for long range shots since there was a huge target standing still 400 meters in front of them ...

I even outran a tempest in a FW190 A8!! Because I had engine cool enough to close rads for enough time to chase him.

Tempest is not magical!!! Neither is the FW or any other plane!! (well maybe the Spitfire).

I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires...

The main danger in tempest are its guns. It feels exactly the same as being targeted by a FW. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They will kick the habit if they stick at it long enough. If Spitfires is what you are used to then Spitfire tactics you will use until you learn how to fly the Tempest as you should. It doesn't make them incompetent. Not that you implied as much of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No no.. not implying they are incompentent. Just that some of them think that all we FW pilots did all these years were plain simple push throtle an wait... (even if it was that simple... after so much time all FW piltos know how to conter their own tatics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

VW-IceFire
02-10-2006, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
The worse, red players seems to really think FW pilots only weapon is deck speed. Yesterday I saw dozens of times Tempests that at any sign of danger simply wen to deck at max speed. Almost ALL were shot down.. some by pacient guys that kept high to have better true airspeed. Other by people that dived together than simply went for long range shots since there was a huge target standing still 400 meters in front of them ...

I even outran a tempest in a FW190 A8!! Because I had engine cool enough to close rads for enough time to chase him.

Tempest is not magical!!! Neither is the FW or any other plane!! (well maybe the Spitfire).

I still didn't saw single Tempest doing proper BnZ! Almost all players are flying them as giant spitfires. They may kill a lot this way (with big guns) but they won't survive much.

Today, in servers I visited I saw almost NO tempest... most people swithing back to Spitfires...

The main danger in tempest are its guns. It feels exactly the same as being targeted by a FW. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I expected something like that to happen...but not as quickly as it did. Its no Spitfire...its a different class of fighter. Preaching to the converted...anyways I agree with you.

Those guys would have more luck with the Tempest if we had the +11lb boost model in terms of running away...the Tempest at sea level is just not all that spectacularly fast at +9lbs.

But thats another subject.

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 04:48 PM
Probably, but you know that the little prop pitch trick gives Tempest the 11 lbs perfromance don´t you? Just go till you are near max speed at sea level for example. 600 kph should be fine

Go to 100% pitch.. rev at max then FAST change to like 40 0r 50%. Hold one second and back to 100 replenish revs... when rev at max do it again. In 4 or 5 cicles you will be about 623 kph. trying hard I got to 627.

jimDG
02-10-2006, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:

All that any FW can do too... and that is the way FW pilots kill 9 in 10 kills. So.. tempest is not at any advantage here... Is is exactly the same role as FW.. but it is less maneuverable than one.

Until now.. when I see a tempest online if it is not behind me.. i think.. great a target... When I see a Spit 25 lb .. if I am not behind it.. I think.. "#!@&*$@!*$!@*" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. FW looses copious amounts of E in sharp turns and decelerates fast in high AoA. And accelerates like a turtle. Pull nose high up for a deflection shot in a FW, while turning, and you have to run away for 1 minute until you regain the lost E.
Unlike the tempest. Tempest can, actually point its nose up with impunity, and maintain high AoA without loosing so much E. The only drawback is that it overheats like crasy - you can't dogfight for more than 3-4 mins, but thats all you need anyway.

MystiqBlackCat
02-10-2006, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MystiqBlackCat:
I am amazed that you fellas forgot to include the new FW190a5 1.65ATA. I think that this plane will have the biggest effect for the Luftwaffe in any scenario before mid to late '44. This includes alot of maps online.

Secondly for Blues are th Italian birds because they will make the Med missions more feasable and give them some variety, not saying that they are uber but that they will give those scenarios some flavor, say Maranera maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a good inclusion but is NOWHERE near the difference that new Spitfire gives. Look at my post about acceleration test. Starting from 250 kph a Spit 25lb outruns Dora and Tempest!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the significance of the each aircraft's inclusion is depended on the time period which they will serve. I completely agree about the Spit, but I'd say that the 1.65ATA Wulfe will make a large impact on 42-43 scenarios, not as large as the uber spit, but good enough for inclussion in this discussion... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mortoma
02-10-2006, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
Re: Do 225 retaining energy

Texan and I are having a good discussion about this on another thread, p1ngu666. People think of the Do 335 as a fast plane. That's understandable, but it's outstanding €" and dangerous €" characteristic in a fight is its climb.

It's not that it's climb rate is so good. I don't even know what the figures for that are. It's that the plane simply does not want to go down. You have to really push it into a dive. With both those big engines running fast, it tends to be grabbing altitude all the time.

Even in a tight turn, it bleeds off speed but not height.

It's zoom climbing abilities are great. Dive hard, pull up, set those big engines on WEP and the thing can make a near-vertical climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ummmmmmm........The Do-335 modeled for our sim does not have WEP!!! No boost at all. A-1 model is the one that had MW-50.

gx-warspite
02-10-2006, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
The problem is.. Spit will kill you before you reah a speed higher than it can reach. So you must always be very very fast, but reaeealy fast now if you want to survive without cover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And again, I really don't know where you're going to find a Dora flying that slow. Unless they're just taking off or landing (in which case even a Hellcat can kill it), most Dora pilots simply do not get slow enough for acceleration to matter. Maybe on furball servers they do, but then I'm guessing those aren't very good, or very serious, Dora pilots to begin with.

What's the point of accelerating faster from 300-500kph, when I cruise at 500-550? I'm not dumb enough to turn with your Spit, I'm not going to climb with it or away from it, and if you have an E advantage and I see you, we'll enter a shallow dive where speeds pick up to the point where your stick might as well be in a block of concrete and I roll away.

I hate to say it, but when I'm flying a 190, there isn't a Spit in this game I'm afraid of. If and when the Griffon engined Spitfire makes its debut, then I'll worry. Then again, if we get a Spit XIV, pretty much everything else in this game is obsolete that doesn't have jets attached.

Doug_Thompson
02-10-2006, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Ummmmmmm........The Do-335 modeled for our sim does not have WEP!!! No boost at all. A-1 model is the one that had MW-50. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me for showing my age, but at least my memory is holding out.

Back when this sim was IL-2, 110 percent power was War Emergency Power, or WEP. MW-50 is not WEP, but boost. Having registered in 2002, I'm surprised you don't remember. But let's not quibble.

LEXX_Luthor
02-10-2006, 11:00 PM
Do-335 should add more than any other new 4.03 plane for high altitude bomber interception, but that has nothing to do with 1945 sea level Online dogfight shooter simming.

Italian planes add more to the sim for when WW2 was still young, but that has nothing to do with 1945 sea level Online Dogfight simming.

georgeo is right. And, Stiglr is right, diving is NOT an option with any of these new planes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OldMan____
02-11-2006, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gx-warspite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
The problem is.. Spit will kill you before you reah a speed higher than it can reach. So you must always be very very fast, but reaeealy fast now if you want to survive without cover. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And again, I really don't know where you're going to find a Dora flying that slow. Unless they're just taking off or landing (in which case even a Hellcat can kill it), most Dora pilots simply do not get slow enough for acceleration to matter. Maybe on furball servers they do, but then I'm guessing those aren't very good, or very serious, Dora pilots to begin with.

What's the point of accelerating faster from 300-500kph, when I cruise at 500-550? I'm not dumb enough to turn with your Spit, I'm not going to climb with it or away from it, and if you have an E advantage and I see you, we'll enter a shallow dive where speeds pick up to the point where your stick might as well be in a block of concrete and I roll away.

I hate to say it, but when I'm flying a 190, there isn't a Spit in this game I'm afraid of. If and when the Griffon engined Spitfire makes its debut, then I'll worry. Then again, if we get a Spit XIV, pretty much everything else in this game is obsolete that doesn't have jets attached. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

beleive me.. I am a FW flyer.. and I tought the same. And you can´t keep all time above 500 kph. You need to climb, to make moderate turns when attacking etc... Also you should not have to keep on PURE BnZ all time, good E tatics should be enough.

Even the best Dora flyers are dragged to loose some E to get that " easy prey" like a Jug or P38 lower than you. Before this spit, it didn´t matter if there was a Spit 9 around. As logn as you never went under his original speed. Now you need to keep at least 80-100 kph speed over it to be SAFE.

Btw, try to outclimb a Spit now... (now at ANY speed Spit wil outclimb you)

WTE_Ibis
02-11-2006, 04:08 AM
Keep the 335 at a constant 400 and it will outclimb and outpace the Spit, at least in QMB it does, dunno about online.

ps. didn't take it above 4500 but that was enough to reverse and down the ace Spit.

.

geetarman
02-11-2006, 07:41 AM
Honestly - I still think the 150 octane Thunderbolt is the best all around

p1ngu666
02-11-2006, 08:12 AM
fw190 is easier than tempest in some ways, just full throttle all the timeif u want, no problem
better roll, and it doesnt roll when u try and turn so much.

tempest looks cooler, overheats really bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif the gunsight view is superb too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

mossie is the biggest disapointment since my sex life.

new a5 seems unremarkable to me, tho i havent done back to back testing

do335 is better jabo than bomber interceptor

gx-warspite
02-11-2006, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
beleive me.. I am a FW flyer.. and I tought the same. And you can´t keep all time above 500 kph. You need to climb, to make moderate turns when attacking etc... Also you should not have to keep on PURE BnZ all time, good E tatics should be enough.

Even the best Dora flyers are dragged to loose some E to get that " easy prey" like a Jug or P38 lower than you. Before this spit, it didn´t matter if there was a Spit 9 around. As logn as you never went under his original speed. Now you need to keep at least 80-100 kph speed over it to be SAFE.

Btw, try to outclimb a Spit now... (now at ANY speed Spit wil outclimb you) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, and this is different from a Lala how? The 25lb Spit is still 30kph slower at lower altitudes than the La-5/7 and suffers from more serious high-speed control problems. At high altitude it's more of a contender than the commie rides, but at high altitude it will reach compression speeds easier too and will be simple to dive away from.

Sorry, the only Spit to scare me still has a Griffon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OldMan____
02-11-2006, 01:19 PM
I don´t count La7 in this book since I only approach them when they don´t see me. Also you will find far more Spit 25 than La7 online.

pourshot
02-11-2006, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but at high altitude it will reach compression speeds easier too and will be simple to dive away from. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If the Spit goes into compression any sooner than your Dora we have a bug, the spit had one of the highest dive speeds of ww2. It only lacked acceleration not speed in a dive, and the 25lb boost should make up for that.

gx-warspite
02-11-2006, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pourshot:
If the Spit goes into compression any sooner than your Dora we have a bug, the spit had one of the highest dive speeds of ww2. It only lacked acceleration not speed in a dive, and the 25lb boost should make up for that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dive speed isn't controllability. Those are two wildly different concepts.

The P-38 dives well too, but it locks up. The 109 was a good diver compared to most of its opposition, but its stick got very stiff quickly as well.

Spits don't roll well at speed. That's a fact of life. They might dive quickly, but they won't roll very well (unless it's a clipped wing model, but that's not the kind available in 25lb boost).

Yak_Ace
02-11-2006, 05:08 PM
Tempest isn't good enough for you, guys?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I am actually flying Tempest on-line and I have shot down two Doras very easy using B&Z tactics! Only Me-262 poses a great threat to Tempest as it was in reality, in my opinion!