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View Full Version : need a new joystick. Do the X52 or HOTAS COUGAR have FFB



sukebeboy
01-14-2007, 04:14 PM
AS my old MS Sidewinder 2 is dying on me, I need to pick up a new stick. I've seen a lot of mention of the Saikek X45, and X52 as well as the Thrustmaster Cougar.

What I haven't been able to find on their sites is if any of these sticks have force feedback. Do they? If not, can anyone recommend a good stick that does? I refuse to troll the online auction sites for secondhand Sidewinders.

sukebeboy
01-14-2007, 04:14 PM
AS my old MS Sidewinder 2 is dying on me, I need to pick up a new stick. I've seen a lot of mention of the Saikek X45, and X52 as well as the Thrustmaster Cougar.

What I haven't been able to find on their sites is if any of these sticks have force feedback. Do they? If not, can anyone recommend a good stick that does? I refuse to troll the online auction sites for secondhand Sidewinders.

BlitzPig_DDT
01-14-2007, 04:25 PM
The Cougar HOTAS is not Force Feedback. However, you could convert it to be Force Sensitive (just like the real F-16 control).

The X52 is a twisty stick, and as such, the work of Satan himself. Pure evil, stay away.

The X45 isn't in stores anymore as far as I've seen. But that has a "rudder rocker" on the throttle, which is good if you don't have pedals, but kinda useless for anything else.

Your best bet is to get pedals if you don't already have them, first off. And then either go with CH stuff, or get the Cougar HOTAS.

I have a Cougar. I love it. I will never get anything else because everything else is less. It has problems, and I'm sure people will pile on in pure bandwagon fashion trying to tell you how bad it is (because that's what people like to do, trash talk everything, especially around here it seems), but it comes down to what you want. In terms of programability, flexibility, feel, and community support (including fantastic modding options), you can't beat the Cougar. It's only problems are that the stock setup will develop center play over time, and the pots are crappy. Both of those can be addressed.

It's like a sports car. They are expensive and tempermental, and people modifiy them constantly. CH is like a Honda, it works, but there's nothing special about it.

Try to find people with different rigs and try them out if you can. (despite the problems, one BlitzPig tried my Cougar and promptly went home and bought his own, after using it nothing else mattered, he had to have one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

Taylortony
01-14-2007, 04:37 PM
I have a cougar too, but fraid to say DDT it suxs......... never use it or the pedals either, use a X45 instead... both none FFB

If you like the Sidewinder, u tried ebay? u might be able to pick up another off there

BlitzPig_DDT
01-14-2007, 04:43 PM
Care to be more specific Taylor?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

JG52Uther
01-14-2007, 04:46 PM
The X52 twist can be locked if you have pedals.The X45 rudder rocker is not useless if you have pedals,you can assign the rocker to 'bands' and use it for extra functions.(I have gear and level stabiliser on my rocker)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/Uther_Do17_3.jpg http://www.geocities.com/jg52thebutcherbirds/
2.(K)/JG52 -(Bombergroup)

sukebeboy
01-14-2007, 04:46 PM
Thanks DDT but if it's not FFB, I don't want it. Force feedback is a necessity for me.

RevvinUK
01-14-2007, 04:53 PM
I used to use an MS FF2 stick, I bought it when I switched to USB sticks and missed my gameport CH Force FX stick. I also owned a Cougar and was not impressed at all, I could have modded it but when I had three die on me I did'nt see the point in wasting any more money and sold the fourth to buy a CH HOTAS which I'm still happily using three years on. You may well find yourself limited in choice for a decent solid FF stick when there are plenty of options for non FF like the CH, Saitek or Thrustmaster HOTAS. I don't miss FF at all.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.ch-hangar.com/SiteFiles/Images/ubbbanners/ch-hangar-spitfire.jpg (http://www.ch-hangar.com)

Profiles, news and help for CH users

roybaty
01-14-2007, 04:53 PM
I have an unmodded Cougar and works fine (aside from killing the throttle pot while flashing it once)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-------------- QUICK SPECS --------------

-------------- HARDWARE --------------

SYSTEM: DELL XPS 600 3Ghz/P4/630
VIDEO CARD: nVidia 6800GS/256
RAM: 1 Gig DDR2 4200
HOTAS : Thrustmaster COUGAR
PEDALS: CH Pro Pedals USB
OTHER INPUT: Track IR2


-------------- SOFTWARE --------------

OS: Win XP Pro SP2
VOICE COMMAND: Shoot 1.6/VR Commander
COMMUNICATION: Teamspeak 2 R2
DX Ver: 9c

sukebeboy
01-14-2007, 04:55 PM
OK, so consider me limited. I will not buy a stick that doesn't offer FFB.

Any suggestions for sticks that do have FFB?

RevvinUK
01-14-2007, 05:04 PM
In your position I'd trawl Ebay and see if I could find an MS FF2 stick.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.ch-hangar.com/SiteFiles/Images/ubbbanners/ch-hangar-spitfire.jpg (http://www.ch-hangar.com)

Profiles, news and help for CH users

Taylortony
01-14-2007, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Care to be more specific Taylor? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It's an overexpensive and not very comfortable in the hand waste of money, the build quality simply is not there, they have used the cheapest monkey metal they could find and you need to spend the overpriced price of the stick again on it to get it anywhere near reliable..

worst item for a PC I ever bought, the one thing it excels at well is collecting dust, An I have been using it for that purpose since I got it..

also the software is as user friendly as a handgrenade with a dodgy fuze...

Now I know you will get the same from everyone for every stick, one mans woman is another mans dog and all that so to speak................ but it's not for me.. oh and what ever happened to the we will produce different stick heads for different aircraft?

sukebeboy
01-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Guess I'll go with the Saitek Evo Force then.

BlitzPig_DDT
01-14-2007, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Care to be more specific Taylor? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It's an overexpensive and not very comfortable in the hand waste of money, the build quality simply is not there, they have used the cheapest monkey metal they could find and you need to spend the overpriced price of the stick again on it to get it anywhere near reliable..

worst item for a PC I ever bought, the one thing it excels at well is collecting dust, An I have been using it for that purpose since I got it..

also the software is as user friendly as a handgrenade with a dodgy fuze...

Now I know you will get the same from everyone for every stick, one mans woman is another mans dog and all that so to speak................ but it's not for me.. oh and what ever happened to the we will produce different stick heads for different aircraft? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't fit my hand inside the D shaped X-45 stick. The bottom slider crushes my pinky. IOW, the Cougar stick is not uncomfortable, but if you have small hands, it could be less than ideal.

That said, the F-16 stick was ergonomically designed by experts. It's made that way for a reason. Position matters. If you move it to the right hand side a bit it becomes more comfortable.

Technically, you can make your own handle if you'd care to. This is something other sticks do not offer. (not easily - they aren't deisgned to be detachable, like the Cougar is.

The internals... this is the only problem with it. Many people, like Roy, have no issue with stock internals. Some people are more picky (as I presume you are (and know I am)). You can again, mod it yourself, or buy your choice of mods made by the community that will change the entire feel of the stick. Something I've not seen for any other input device.

Pots are pots are pots. They all go bad, they should all be replaced by Hall Effect Sensors. Get some of them and you will never go back.

And as for the software, well, I am an IT worker who has dabbled in programming as a hobby for a long time, but, I didn't find it the least bit tricky or complicated. Did you try the GUI mapping interface? Did you try setting it up in Direct X mode and assigning the buttons in the game? (it's easier that way, and what I do for the IL-2 series. LOMAC is the only thing I made a profile for, and the things you can do with it are awesome. I love playing with that and adding more and more cool functions)

Would you like to sell yours? I'll buy it from ya. PM me.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

roybaty
01-14-2007, 05:24 PM
I agree it's overpriced and would have gotten a CH if I didn't get it as a gift years ago. But now that I've had it no real complaints.

As for the programming, once you understand it it is very powerful, especially for more complex sims.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-------------- QUICK SPECS --------------

-------------- HARDWARE --------------

SYSTEM: DELL XPS 600 3Ghz/P4/630
VIDEO CARD: nVidia 6800GS/256
RAM: 1 Gig DDR2 4200
HOTAS : Thrustmaster COUGAR
PEDALS: CH Pro Pedals USB
OTHER INPUT: Track IR2


-------------- SOFTWARE --------------

OS: Win XP Pro SP2
VOICE COMMAND: Shoot 1.6/VR Commander
COMMUNICATION: Teamspeak 2 R2
DX Ver: 9c

Taylortony
01-14-2007, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:


Would you like to sell yours? I'll buy it from ya. PM me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


lol the postage would be expensive and i aint giving it away, i know what they got for http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

incidently the pinkie on the 45 is designed to pop out..... for those that have bigger hands http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


sukebeboy

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbr...prchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1 (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=microsoft+joystick&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1)

BlitzPig_DDT
01-14-2007, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:


Would you like to sell yours? I'll buy it from ya. PM me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


lol the postage would be expensive and i aint giving it away, i know what they got for http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for the price of a new one, I can buy a new one, if I really wanted to.

Your call. Anything is better than nothing and having it collect dust. Let me know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

sukebeboy
01-14-2007, 05:36 PM
Thanks, but all those are 120V versions. I need 240V.

airjunkie
01-14-2007, 05:46 PM
heyh do not throw that sidewinder away i,ll take it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

erco415
01-14-2007, 05:50 PM
I'm with you sukebeboy, force feedback or bust!
I picked up a used MS ffb on ebay, and I love it, but I'm afraid that it's health isn't the best. There's a guy on the west coast who refurbishes and sells sidewinders (you can find him on ebay) but I don't know what he would charge to do one. From what I can tell, the evo force is the only game in town these days, and I'm considering one myself - if you get one let me know how you like it. I wish that there was a ffb X52pro!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ercos-hangar/fokker_now.jpg

Taylortony
01-14-2007, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sukebeboy:
Thanks, but all those are 120V versions. I need 240V. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


UK huh, NP see

http://search-desc.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?sofocus...trypage=search&fgtp= (http://search-desc.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=microsoft++sidewinder+joystick&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&fts=2&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D3&sadis=200&fpos=DE74+2SA&ga10244=10425&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=)

GH_Klingstroem
01-15-2007, 02:25 AM
Im with u guys! I could NEVER fly this sim without FF!
There simply is no such thing as a sudden snap stall or whatever the community calls it, when u have FF! Without the buffeting when u approach the stall, I can understand that some people find some things twitchy!
FF all the way!!
Personally I love the old MS sidewinder FF sticks! I have two of them, both from 1997... ah the 90s... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rnzoli
01-15-2007, 03:35 AM
me too, having been flying with and without FFB for long periods of time, I just couldn't go without FFB

this feature may be accused of being not 100% realistic, it may be accused of worseing your hit percentage, but it is still big immersion booster - think of increasing stick shake when getting close to Vne... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or the turbulence when lowering your landing flaps and gears on the final approach...

however, the status of FFB sticks on the market is really shameful, the king of FFB (MS FFB2) is out of production and overpriced, while the new ones are either weak in force effect (Saitek) or suffer from poor mechanical design (Logitech)

to be able to retain my FFB effects, I had to go the extra mile(s) and build my own hardware (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3791063134), using the firmware of scrapped Logitech Wingman Force 3D sticks

it works reasonably well (especially that I am converting the anlge detectors from normal potentiometer resistance strips to non-contact infrared opticals )

sometimes when I Alt+Tab out of the game, I lose the FFB spring tension effect (known problem with IL-2), and it feels like a normal 'lifeless' stick and i DON'T LIKE that neutral, uncharacteristic feeling all the time, makes me feel like playing an arcade game, so i rather disconnect and reconnect to the server to get the spring tension back, and I can get back fighting the stick in stormy weather, high speed dives, stalls... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FFB all the way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

BSS_AIJO
01-15-2007, 09:18 AM
Hey,

Don't take too big of a dump on the X52. I have been useing mine since it came out. It replaces my cyborg gold. That was a stick the sucked. 8^) The X52 on the other hand has been very good to me. Yea, I have complaints. It needs at least two more sliders, and I would be really happy if it was a bit heavier and had better sensors. But overall its a pretty nice stick. I have the twisty shut off and use ch peddals. Doing carrier traps is plain old easier with peddals.

As for force feedback. I would _kill_ for a good Hotas force feedback setup. Perhapse saitek could be talked into releaseing an x62ffb hotas stick setup. I would change to useing the 52s throttle and a ffb stick, but then I lose all of the extra buttons on the x52 stick, and I am quite addicted to the extra buttons, I like not haveing to touch the keyboard when I am flying.

If Saitek were to make a x52 like stick with FFB I would pay good money for it with no complaints.


BSS_AIJO<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style3,BSS-unl-AIJO.png (http://www.sloganizer.net/en/)

rnzoli
01-15-2007, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would _kill_ for a good Hotas force feedback setup </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, if I had not got my fairly good job right now, I would have started up my own company to produce a precise, comfortable and powerful force feedback stick. Big companies are too cautious to take some steps, because the profitability of such niche product remain under their average profitability, hence 'not desirable' by their owners/shareholders. The big money is in average sticks, ultra cheap to produce in China, and average Joe won't recognize any problem with it anyway, because he uses for a month or two only. Now, that's a good business case.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)