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3.JG51_Stecher
04-26-2004, 04:00 AM

3.JG51_Stecher
04-26-2004, 04:00 AM

JG54_Arnie
04-26-2004, 04:03 AM
The last one

Fehler
04-26-2004, 04:07 AM
Hell, I have even seen people strafe a plane that was falling from the sky with only one wing and steal the kill. THAT is kill stealing.

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WOLFMondo
04-26-2004, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Hell, I have even seen people strafe a plane that was falling from the sky with only one wing and steal the kill. THAT is kill stealing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta agree there. I guess some people are more bothered about points than anything else. In most online games I've always thought removing the personal score and just having a team score is much more condusive to team work.

I saw a bunch of guys yesterday shooting an IL2 that i'd already shot up and the pilot and gunner had bailed and it was still flying in a straigh line. They were all jockeying for position on it. Made me laugh anyway.

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T_O_A_D
04-26-2004, 04:15 AM
4&5 But 5 obviously. 5 your team mate should hold back and make sure you don't get jumped while working him over. Then if you run out of amo finish him off. Then escort you home to saftey.

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Dnmy
04-26-2004, 04:47 AM
Depends on whether you are after points or not.

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Afreaka
04-26-2004, 05:11 AM
Kill stealing is overconfidence in one's own ability. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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LW_lcarp
04-26-2004, 05:24 AM
Funny thing ive noticed with kill stealing its usually those that fly LAs or Yaks and tend to hang around airbases strafing people as the spawn.

Its just something ive noticed

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SeaFireLIV
04-26-2004, 05:30 AM
It`s interesting to note that `Kill-stealing` can be a bit of a problem sometimes because you might see someone make an attack on an enemy plane then perhaps slightly overshoot, yet turns to get back on the enemy. Now I feel at this point I can intervene because noone`s actually on the enemy at that moment, and I have a better firing solution, but I think, "Will this pilot take offense? Will he accuse me of kill-stealing?"

I would say kill stealing is only when the enemy plane is obviously incapacitated, but to be safe, it`s best to stay back and cover until you know the situation better ie, the friendly starts to get in trouble.

F19_Ob
04-26-2004, 05:30 AM
Actually the killstealingtopic is a neverending one since there are so many ways to angle it.
My personal experience is that a multitude of people with different nationalities,languages, ages, individualtypes and so on will easily misinterpret most situations when "killstealing" occur bcause they normally cant see the big picture from their cockpits.

one standard example is when a bnz'er has shot at a target and zooms up to prepare for next pass. During that time another plane takes a shot at the cripled enemy and begins a dogfight. Now the bnz'er could acuse the intervener for stealing and/or if he makes another bnz attack and finnish of the enemy, the dogfighter will speak his mind.

It would be easy to add variations on this theme.



Its a waste of time to argue about it especially online....never leads to any good.
New shotingopportunities comes along constantly.


just a thought.

Bearcat99
04-26-2004, 05:47 AM
AFAIC #5 and only 5, and eve that is a flexible definition. Since I am more concerned with team play and team scores than individual scores I guess I am coming from a different place. If a plane is damaged but still flying its fair game. I have shot down planes that had rendered me inop.. I was on my way down and in a spin and I got a lucky cannon shot that took off the wing of my attacker as he flew by.. I have had the same thing happen to me on the other end. Thats why I dont take things seriously when in DF servers in the sende that my main reason for going into one is to get practice attacking and evading live pilots. I get no trophy, no money, no reward of any kind from points so they mean nothing to me. I get more satisfaction from being able to land and respawn as opposed to having to do it from my chute.. or worse from a spot in the sky or a crater.

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SUPERAEREO
04-26-2004, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Hell, I have even seen people strafe a plane that was falling from the sky with only one wing and steal the kill. THAT is kill stealing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seen it myself too, and all too often.

Or people strafing the bandit you just obliged to crash land just before it explodes...

Bit silly really... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Oh well, if it makes them happy...

S!


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tsisqua
04-26-2004, 07:32 AM
Kill stealing is the last one . . . obvious fatal damage to an enemy plane, and some a-hole dives in to put a few rounds in it, just before it hits the ground

You know, just like your offline AI team mates do.

I always leave a dogfight alone until my mate gets in trouble, but to me, if the points should go to my team, then I really don't care if my mate helps me get a kill. That's why they call it a team.


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I JG3 Troz
04-26-2004, 09:42 AM
i once had a squad mate griping at me on comms for "kill stealing", kinda bummed me out, i had been following same plane since we started the furball, bogie evaded, i had to reposition myself to get back behind him, here comes my buddy underneath me, i'm stealing his kill...i break off, and RTB with no kills, he lands with 5 or 6 kills. LMAO maybe he just didnt see what i had been doing, i don't know,Just shows things can look much different depending on which cockpit you are sitting in

Eagle_361st
04-26-2004, 09:48 AM
Number 5 without doubt. But I would also add that kill stealing can also be considered when you engage and fire at a target that a teamate is obviously already engaged with, and having no regard to the safety of said teamate. This is a serious problem online pilots shooting over the shoulders or "around a teamate" just to get points. Often times they manage to damage or kill their own teamate and allow the enemy to get away.

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crazyivan1970
04-26-2004, 10:18 AM
No such thing IMO. Just like vulching, same type of thing. Was it part of RL? You better believe it. There are no gentlemen in combat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Cold_Gambler
04-26-2004, 10:20 AM
#5 and only #5 imo,

I don't have a problem with the "over the shoulder" shots, so long as they are truly "over the shoulder" and not "through the shoulder"

BpGemini
04-26-2004, 10:21 AM
There are differing levels of kill stealing. It ranges from the blatant "strafe the plane someone else has one-winged and flaming to it's death" to plane and simple poor team tactics like shooting over someone's shoulder.

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Capt.LoneRanger
04-26-2004, 10:28 AM
Agreed Gemini.

Shooting a plane that falls down in pieces is kill-stealing.

Shooting over a teammates shoulder is bad tactics and a weird attitude, btw, cause few planes can safely shoot along a friend and never hit him.

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BBB_Hyperion
04-26-2004, 10:30 AM
I would consider it Kill Stealing too when a DF lasted over 15 minutes from 8 km alt you finaly brought yourself in a good position and the enemy is in bad E state at about 100 m alt now.It is only a matter of time until you can place some shoots and an uninvited other Plane jumps in and just shoots your target right in front of you while yoo did all the hard work getting it in this state http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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HomeFries94
04-26-2004, 10:38 AM
I voted for 4 on this one, because the contract between wingmen is that of "engaged" and "supporting". If the supporting wingman has a clean shot, he should communicate with the engaged pilot and it is the ENGAGED pilot's choice on whether to break off.

Under no circumstances should an "over the shoulder" shot be attempted. Seeing friendly tracers over my shoulder indicates that, at the very least, my wingie has no stake in my personal safety.

georgeo76
04-26-2004, 10:55 AM
The only definition for kill stealing I can come up w/ is when someone shoots @ a destroyed AC as it spirals toward the ground.

But even then it doesn't bother me. The only thing I don't like is when someone shoots past me @ a bandit, risks collision w/ me to engage a bandit, or anything else that risks damage to me. But I wouldn't call that kill stealing, just bad manners and foolish piloting

In any other instance when 2 AC are engaged w/ one, I call that teamwork

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NorrisMcWhirter
04-26-2004, 11:01 AM
Hi,

Kill stealing is the latter of the choices.

Most annoyingly, when you have sawn a wing off and someone still goes after it; the argument that team points are more important than personal scores is not applicable here as the teammate is wasting ammunition that could very well save your own a*se in the near future. Of course, you know it doesn't matter, anyway, because the kill stealer isn't going to hang around protecting his team-mates - he's straight off to base to bank his points.

The second level of annoyance is when a single-engined plane is clearly on fire (except a P38 because they are made from asbestos...along with the pilot) and it's obvious that the pilot is going to have to bail out...and someone comes along to shoot it.

Third level is where it's clear that the aircraft's engine (single) has stopped..and that the pilot is going to have to bail. This is less annoying because it's not so easy to spot a stopped prop than it being on fire.

Pumping fire into a plane that is smoking is generally OK because it's hard to determine if it is crippled or not. Similarily for aircraft that appear to be going down after being shot at; it can very often be a feint.

Cheers,
Norris

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VW-IceFire
04-26-2004, 11:22 AM
Kill stealing is that last one on the list. Obvious fata damage has been inflicted to the target aircraft in the form of serious prolonged engine fire, control failure (you can usually tell when the pilot has no control over the plane anymore), total engine failure, missing tail, wings, or other major structural components.

Last night I blasted a 109 and he was missing both ailerons, his engine was on fire, and the pilot had just blown the hatch and was about to bail out. I increased speed and climbed away...just as a crazy guy in a P-51 flew right in and shot him for a half second burst and then followed him until he crashed into the ground. An obvious steal...I knew that I had obviously achieved the kill and I saluted the downed pilot but the behavior of my teamate was contemptable. I flew wing for the guy I had just shot down when I switched teams http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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FliegerAas
04-26-2004, 04:19 PM
I'm not one of those pointfetishists, but when I manage to shoot a plane down after a long fight , I get angry when someone KS a plane I severly damaged http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif.

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Scragbat
04-26-2004, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FliegerAas:
I'm not one of those pointfetishists, but when I manage to shoot a plane down after a long fight , I get angry when someone KS a plane I severly damaged http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
Online unterwegs als "Hundsbube"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Option 5 clearly

Well put FliegerAas. In this situation, which in my book is what a KS is (if you mean severly damaged as in unflyable or heading for the ground), points don't come into it at all for the good guy who did the damage. The Kill Stealer is the one who is interested in the points.

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FliegerAas
04-26-2004, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scragbat:
Extract:
...(if you mean severly damaged as in unflyable or heading for the ground), ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, that's what I mean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Swivet
04-26-2004, 05:21 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif 1-5, All of the above! Anyone who kills your bogey that you have been gunning the past half-hour is a thief!, and deserves to be vulched right off the runway! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

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Dammerung
04-26-2004, 05:26 PM
Sometimes with Mgs it's hard to tell. I preforated a 109 in a Stang and it was leakin fuel, but only diving at about 20 degrees and the pilot ejected. If a Teammate fires a couple .303 rounds into it and gets the kill it's just plain wrong. Even more so if they claim they didnt know the pilot jumped when his chute is right below.

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Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

TX-Bomblast
04-26-2004, 05:31 PM
I never really get upset anymore. I know when to back off after wounding a plane, knowing it won't or can't re-engage. Remember, it's the one who gets home alive that wins.

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JG7_Rall
04-26-2004, 06:58 PM
As many have said here, number 5 is, imo, the only real choice. And even so, its still not right I think.

Kill stealing to me is one of the following things:

-Someone strafing a plane which you shot down and he managed to crash land

-Someone shooting the debris of a plane you just shot to bits

-Someone shooting over your shoulder when it's obvious you've got the kill. If he's all over the place and you're behind him nevertheless, I don't have a problem with someone getting a shot over me. But when I've damaged a bandit or out E-fought him and he's totally all mine, and the ******** squad shows up to shoot everything they've got at him (5-6 planes mind you) then it's not too fun.

Other than that, I think what really matters is teamwork. If someone comes in to kill the bandit even when it looks like I've won, that's fine. He's still a threat to me and the team, and as long as that threat is eliminated, that's what really counts. As said before, getting home alive is what you should strive for, and covering your buddies when they're engaged is even better. Its 100 times more satisfying to save a friend than just to shoot down any old plane. Esp. if he's damaged but manages to hang in there, and you fly on his wing all the way back to base http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

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hos8367
04-26-2004, 07:08 PM
#5 is kll stealing. #2 and #4 (same thing really) is poor teamwork.

Snow_Wolf_
04-26-2004, 07:15 PM
Yep number 5 sounds like a still kill

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nickdanger3
04-26-2004, 08:06 PM
Wait a minute ! Great idea with the poll - now we have increasing level of KS-ness ! I'm serious here.

It's like first second and third degree murder. Somebody could even plead the KS equivalent of manslaughter.

#1 A pilot kills a plane that a teammate unsuccessfully shot at first in a BnZ attack.

Just chat with them and say "Well that was a KS 1 if I ever saw it".

#5 = First degree murder.

Now of course, different jurisdictions can deal with the punishment of first degree murder differently....some servers encourage vulching, why not, if you host, tell players that KS-5'ers can be teamkilled.

IV|JG51Flatspin
04-26-2004, 08:15 PM
2,4,5

Let me see if I've got this straight. The majority of votes here do not consider it kill stealing if you strongarm yourself into an existing fight and shoot over the shoulder, over the nose, or whatever?

All I gotta say is: Hmm

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FI-Aflak
04-26-2004, 08:31 PM
#4. I fly jug and pony and other energy fighters. This means that when I am engaged, there are long peroids of time during which I am not actually firing on my target.

When I cause smoke, obvious control damage, etc, and pull out of my attack in order to make a second pass, I really, really hate it when someone else downs my target. If I'm flying wing with someone, or with my squaddies, thats different, but when its just some random guy online that hasn't been working with me and he just yoinks a kill out of this crippled target of mine, I get a little bit peeved.

Kill stealing is bad, but it happens and you have to accept it. If I am chasing a target and on its six, and cause mucho damage to it only to have a "friendly" slide in between my and the target, I get a little angry, but I break off my attack. Usually I will message my teammate, and if he breaks off I will finish it, if not, I just get some alt so I am ready for the next bogey that appears. However, if that next bogey is, say, a 190 A-9 and the "friendly" is a yak-3 a few thousand meters below the anton, I will let the bogey kill the guy before I engage. Its called revenge: You steal my kills and you forfeit my help, at least for a few minutes.

jmmoric
04-26-2004, 10:21 PM
If your wingman shoots over your shoulder, then pull up, let him put a few slugs in your jug and bail http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

We can't have teamkillers amongst us http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

FuryFighter
04-26-2004, 10:59 PM
hehe yeah, if some guy shoots over my shoulder and damages me.. I'll lwt my plane die. give them a tast neg score for thier stupidity. I've had critical damage done by friendlies many times cause they want my target.

Also, its actually probably best to abort if you get a pack of friendlies chasing your target ith you. Many times to have I seen 3 or so planes collide while trying to shoot me cause thier eyes were locked onto me and not thier suroundings.

nothing wrong with another pilot shooting a plane that was unsucesfully engaged. Shooting a plane dropping straght down, and backwards cause its rear fuselage is gone.. thats just lame. Although, there are times when the pilot maybe able to level his crippled plane and hold level, using flaps and careful throttle despite potentialy fatal damage. ie removal of tailplanes.

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