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winslynn
09-25-2005, 07:11 AM
Does anyone know just how many of these decoys you get in your loadout?Any tips on deploying them?

winslynn
09-25-2005, 07:11 AM
Does anyone know just how many of these decoys you get in your loadout?Any tips on deploying them?

W.Irving
09-25-2005, 07:31 AM
You get three, I believe.

You should launch at some depth, at least early in the war when ASDIC could not easily pick up sounds emitted from shallow depths, say 30 metres and below.

There are several ways to use the Bold decoy.
This is how I do it:

I only use the Bold when I've been detected and cannot seem to be able to escape (which only happens with more than one depth charging vessel). Remember the ships do circular patterns above you, and are deaf astern of themselves.

When a ship starts pinging me for range, I order flank speed (no point in remaining silent if they know where you are anyway) and a knuckle turn.
Once the ship has passed over you (the pinging ceases) it cannot hear you until it has turned sufficiently. This is when I switch to slow ahead, release a decoy, change course (no more than 20 degrees of rudder the opposite direction), and dive even further (I want the decoy between me and the ships above).
It takes less than a minute before the same ship, or a different one, is in position to ping your last known location, where the decoy now is. Use this time to silently slip away.
Works for me almost all of the time.

Having a very limited supply of decoys, I consider the Bold a last ditch attempt at getting rid of a pack of destroyers. If I can't shake them with the Bold, I am not worthy of commanding my own boat! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Gunnersman
09-25-2005, 09:55 AM
Good points W.Irving. But I think there should be some clearification here.
ASDIC cannot "hear" you. Only "hydrophones" can actually "hear" you. ASDIC is what is known as "active sonar". Meaning it sends out a signal (ping), like radar, and receives a signal that bounces off of something. That is what the "ping" is (that awful ping).
As for hydrophones, the faster a ship goes that is listening with hydrophones (or a submarine for that matter) the harder it is for the hyrdophone operator (sonar man) to hear anything because the water is rushing over the hydrophone receivers. Kind of like wind rushing by your ears when you stick your head out of the car traveling fast.
When DCs explode, that messes up everything for a short period of time...hydrophones AND ASDIC. So you get a brief period of blindness on the part of the DDs.

Ok, I dont want to long winded here. But those are things you should consider when trying to evade DDs.

W.Irving
09-25-2005, 10:43 AM
I don't think the speed of the vessel is taken into account when using ASDIC in SHIII. Not sure, but I think I have seen destroyers doing 34 knots and pinging at the same time.

In real life, doing 34 knots with the dome extended is absolutely impossible due to drag, and will probably even destroy it!

WilhelmSchulz.-
09-25-2005, 12:04 PM
Yes but asdic needs to be heared by the sonar man.

W.Irving
09-25-2005, 12:07 PM
The return echo, yes. It is heard by the ASDIC operator.
But the emitted ping can be heard by anyone who is unfortunate enough to be onboard the vessel being tracked.

Gunnersman
09-25-2005, 01:18 PM
The Sonarman does not need to hear anything as far as ASDIC goes. The whole point of ASDIC/active sonar is to detemine range and bearing (and later on in the war, depth) of a contact. The result is put on a CRT display.

The fact that you can hear a "ping" is incidental. The creators did not make ASDIC around the idea that "HEY, thats the machine that goes PING!" and they thought it would be neat to use it to find submarines with. It just so happens that sound travels best through a thick medium like water, where as something else in the electromagnetic spectrum such as light or radio waves is not as efficient.
In fact it would be better for the attacking DD if there were no audible "ping" at all so the target submarine would not know it has been detected until it is too late.
But thats not possible.

W.Irving
09-25-2005, 01:33 PM
They could use (close to) ultra/infrasound though.
Although a higher frequency lowers the range, and a lower frequency - I assume - might produce false echoes. The ASDIC is actually quite close to infrasound already.

WirMussen
09-25-2005, 01:51 PM
does anyone know the maximum range of ASDIC? (where you can hear the ping but the signal doesnt make it back to DD)

Anton_Reinhold
09-25-2005, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WirMussen:
does anyone know the maximum range of ASDIC? (where you can hear the ping but the signal doesnt make it back to DD) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I "think" the WWII range of active sonar was around 2000-2500 meters.

W.Irving
09-25-2005, 03:19 PM
Different systems had different ranges, which also depended on the frequency used and other factors such as water temperature, water speed, and so on.
1800 metres seems to be an average range, and ~3500 the absolute upper limit.

Gunnersman
09-25-2005, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by W.Irving:
They could use (close to) ultra/infrasound though.
Although a higher frequency lowers the range, and a lower frequency - I assume - might produce false echoes. The ASDIC is actually quite close to infrasound already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think they use something like that for sub to sub communication, but they have to be close...real close. Im not well educated on that. On modern subs, that is.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">does anyone know the maximum range of ASDIC? (where you can hear the ping but the signal doesnt make it back to DD) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a post on the EFFECTIVE range of ASDIC around here somewhere. Do a search....my fingers hurt. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Kaleun1961
09-25-2005, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by W.Irving:
I don't think the speed of the vessel is taken into account when using ASDIC in SHIII. Not sure, but I think I have seen destroyers doing 34 knots and pinging at the same time.

In real life, doing 34 knots with the dome extended is absolutely impossible due to drag, and will probably even destroy it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true, that the ship is pinging while going fast. It does not necessarily mean that he is getting a good return signal. But as you say, we do not "know" if they are suffering the real-life limitations.

Likewise, it is only mere seconds after a depth-charging that the escorts are back at it, pinging away. In real life it could be a matter of several minutes until the water distrubance cleared enough for asdic to be effective again. Real-life U-boat hunts often took hours because of this, as well as other factors, of course.

Good advice, Irving. I haven't yet used decoys, but I will keep your advice handy when I get some. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WilhelmSchulz.-
09-25-2005, 05:23 PM
This might help.
http://uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm

Maj_Solo
09-26-2005, 03:28 AM
I use the decoys when I see a destroyer coming straight for me, cause he had my surface position by eye or radar, and I don't want to fight, then I dive and use the decoy before he can fix my underwater position and I go flank speed as long as I dare, to get separation betweeen me and the decoy, then I go to silent running and try disappear. The destroyer comes into the area and hear choff-choff-choff-choff and probably pings empty space.

When they already found me under water I have unconclusive mixed results.

W.Irving
09-26-2005, 03:29 AM
I was suspecting it wouldn't take three seconds for the turbulence to clear. Bah.
The Bald decoy is also only active for three minutes, as opposed to thirty minutes in real life.
It's these kind of discrepancies that bring down the overall impression of SHIII.

The Tribal destroyers could not successfully use ASDIC above 15 knots, and could not travel faster than 20knots with the dome extended.
Doing 36 knots and suddenly lowering the dome, I imagine, would either rip it right off, or at least deform it so it couldn't be retracted.

Pity SHIII is so unrealistic.

Acunnon
09-26-2005, 12:39 PM
Of course it is not realistic it is a game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

If it were realistic we would never find a lone destroyer and when they came after us one would be pinging and one would be dcing. Later on there would be the evil hedgehogs (the thought of those things scares the hell out of me) to deal with where the DDs would be able to scan with little to no distortion.

Water rushing over the hydros/sonar was only part of the problem, the faster a ships moves the more noise the ship its self makes thus distorting the picture even more, that is why modern DDs (American ones at least I am not familiar with other nations ships) have a sonar unit in the bow under water and a towed sonar (thus isolating the sonar from the ship) unit that can trail several hundred feet behind and bellow the DD. But scanning at when a ship is running wide open, the ship could run over a 747 taking off and would never hear it.


Got off topic there, I have only used decoys a couple times. I use them when being chased down by multiple ships, I wait till after a dc run pop the decoys make a turn and go deep. It has worked so far and thank fully I have not had to use them very often.

W.Irving
09-26-2005, 02:29 PM
The decoy operating times are ridiculously short though. It's not as if the whole game is scaled down ten times.
I'd say it'd work great if the depth charges and decoys worked as they are supposed to. Who's with me on this one?

WirMussen
09-26-2005, 02:56 PM
depth charges seem to work well against me (as i just this minute found out in the english channel between dover and calais) but il agree on the decoy, its pathetic, no time to make any real distance from it especially when running silent

W.Irving
09-26-2005, 04:14 PM
Precisely! It shouldn't take long for a moderately experienced ASDIC operator to realise they're hearing (a static cloud of) bubbles rather than steel. Definitely not much longer than three minutes!

Maj_Solo
09-26-2005, 07:14 PM
If it were realistic the computer should send us a 240V electric chock so we pass out when we die in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Maj_Solo
09-26-2005, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by W.Irving:
The decoy operating times are ridiculously short though. It's not as if the whole game is scaled down ten times.
I'd say it'd work great if the depth charges and decoys worked as they are supposed to. Who's with me on this one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if they drop 10 times faster and the decoy works 10 times shorter then I would like to dive and drive under water 10 times faster , and for fairness the enemy surface ships should be driving 10 times faster to make it right then I would like an option to reduce game time speed 10 times ........ blah, why dodn't they just make the stuff work as it did in WWII......

Gunnersman
09-27-2005, 01:41 PM
Well, they make improvements on the decoys later in the war that last alot longer.
But then again, I'd imagine 3 minutes is long enough to get a DCing DD of your back to get away.
It was for me. At least in deep water.

V-MAN2404
09-27-2005, 02:29 PM
I'm sure you get more than 3 decoys Irving in your load out, I remember deploying at least 4 on one patrol.

W.Irving
09-27-2005, 02:44 PM
I got three once.
Perhaps it varies.

winslynn
09-27-2005, 06:37 PM
Last night during an escape after a convoy attack during which I was deploying decoys,I had the message come up "Reloading decoys".This was after 3 or 4 decoys were deployed already,I was in a panic mode and didn't count them.

HeibgesU999
09-27-2005, 07:40 PM
US Fleet Subs in WWII used VHF for Communication and Locating the Enemy.