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View Full Version : Battleships. No whine intended.



WOLFMondo
10-27-2004, 05:43 AM
Anyone else tried to get them to fight? Its not a problem getting them to fire at each other, getting them to hit each other seems to be an issue.

I put up HMS King George V, a mighty fine battleship, against 2 Japanese destroyers. About 5 KM apart which isn't far off point blank in BB combat. I wanted some nice screen shots of a ship battle which I thought would be a little one sided...with the Royal Navy.

Now here in lies the problem. KGV didnt score any hits in 5 minutes. They were all way off, up to several km. She was badly damaged by the destoyers with smoke pooring out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I seem to remember from reading the the KGV class ships had pretty good fire control and accurate guns after the problems were ironed out early in the war (like spray affecting fire control), and the AI was on ace. I then put up KGV and Duke of York against these 2 destroyers, a little further apart. No hits were scored by either ships. I tried 10 and then 20km apart, given the KGV guns have a maximum range of 43KM, so its not that far. I even put the Akagi in there, as a huge fat target but no cigar.

What gives?

Amer82nd
10-27-2004, 06:37 AM
When the USS Washington went into the night battle against the Japaneese Babttleship(Can't remember her name) they said it took 45 minutes before the first hit was struck.

Levethane
10-27-2004, 06:43 AM
The Bismarck sent the Hood to the bottom in like 2 minutes though...
The Rodney also wasted 2 Destroyers in under 4 minutes in 1942 (from memory).

NegativeGee
10-27-2004, 06:54 AM
The Bismarck had a lucky volley at an ideal range to exploit the weaknesses in the upper armour (or abscence thereoff) of the Hood.

Captial ship duels with main guns involved a large element of chance- even the most advanced targeting devices of the day returned very poor accuracy. Have a fight in poor weather with rolling seas and things just got worse.

I've tried the Tirpitz vs. the Marat and its only at fairly close range that hits seem to be scored with any degree of frequency, the Tirpitz being far better than the Marat.

owlwatcher
10-27-2004, 07:22 AM
No PF yet
Did range finding with the ships.

Did you try the Tirpitz in the same missions?

WOLFMondo
10-27-2004, 07:46 AM
I tried something a little more complicated:
USS Indionapolis, HMS DoY, HMS PoW, HMS KGV, 2x HMS Illustrious, USS Fletcher X2 20km apart from 2X Akagi, Turpitz and 4 Japanese destroyers. Right at the end I put them on a collision course, at least that way someone will sink http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I put them on coral sea on a huge course that went round the map, I left it on with a camera over the Akagi (which seems to be very long range and accurate with those little pop guns on the side), I went and made a cup of tea etc to come back 5 minutes later (it had been on 8X time) and they were still going at it with no hits to either side. I'd leave it on longer but I want to play the game rather than pick holes in less important points http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I fully understand naval combat was partly luck as much as technology and skill on the part of the crew but I didn't think they would be that inaccurate. With 1000 shells per KGV ship they'd probably run out before they actually scored any hits.

BTW all AI was on veteran for this.

What got me most previously was 2 little destroyers taking out KGV at 5km and the KGV missing every time! I doubt those little 5" guns could penetrate the 38cm armour belt or 29cm deck armour at that range.

beepboop
10-27-2004, 08:49 AM
Yeah, I found out about this hilarious "feature" last night. I wanted to scramble from the decks of the Akagi in order to attack a KGV that had "snuck up" on us in fog. But there is no real threat from the Battleship, because it never ever scores a direct hit with its main armament.

The secondary guns seem to be pretty **** accurate. Yet they do virtually no damage. The Akagi was blazing away like crazy with those 4" AA guns, which seemed a little silly. It's even more ridiculous if you put the ships closer together, because they use their light AA against each other - and they attack ships before aircraft for some reason.

A KGV class battleship has excellent fire control and would score first-shot hits at anything below five miles range in even the heaviest of seas. The Duke of York sunk the Scharnhorst in appalling weater at extreme ranger in under 15 minutes once fire had been opened.

In defence of PF, ship to ship combat is hardly at the core of the game, and it's just nice to see some battleships modelled so nicely.

Maulkin
10-27-2004, 09:19 AM
While I understand that PF is a simulator, you do understand it is not in fact a ship battle simulator..?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
10-27-2004, 10:03 AM
Yeah lol, but it would be a really nice feature. Maybe the AI setting only governs the AA guns.

owlwatcher
10-27-2004, 10:04 AM
Pf must have changed the accuracy of the guns.
Need some data, but if the KG had the 15" gun . I think that gun design holds the record for longest recorded hit of the war.

scootertgm
10-27-2004, 10:08 AM
Remember also, that even though small AA guns might not cause a gaping hole in teh side of the ship, they will cause fires to areas on teh decks and superstructure. these fires in teh end can be just as deadly as if you took a full broadside from teh yamato.

Fennec_P
10-27-2004, 10:10 AM
Maybe you could try increasing the ship difficulty level?

But ya, big gun accuracy is silly. At 5km, they should be getting hits almost every salvo.

But if 1C made them better, ppl would complain that they shoot down planes too easily http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Zeus-cat
10-27-2004, 10:45 AM
All ships are in the game for two reasons:

1) to make the game look like World War II
2) To be a target for your bombs or torpedoes.

The fact that they shoot at each other is just a nice touch that really has little to do with the game.

Zeus-cat

adadaead
10-27-2004, 11:23 AM
Talking about shipvi saw one on TV it had 40inch guns on it. That was pretty cool.

WOLFMondo
10-28-2004, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
All ships are in the game for two reasons:

1) to make the game look like World War II
2) To be a target for your bombs or torpedoes.

The fact that they shoot at each other is just a nice touch that really has little to do with the game.

Zeus-cat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having a battleship close in on your little fleet or destroyers and carriers a knowing it will take them all out is a real incentive to go and sink ithttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rodion_zero
10-28-2004, 01:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
All ships are in the game for two reasons:

1) to make the game look like World War II
2) To be a target for your bombs or torpedoes.

The fact that they shoot at each other is just a nice touch that really has little to do with the game.

Zeus-cat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That remark can be true in a simulation that features lots of landmass and little bodies of water with some ships in them (i.e. IL2:FB/AEP, Crimea, the English Channel etc.)...but if you talk about the Pacific War, it was mostly about ships and the roles they played...and oh, water...lots and lots of water...

Thus, downplaying the REALISTIC role of ships in a COMBAT FLIGHT simulation that features endless oceans and ships, is almost like saying that what makes a peanut butter sandwich is the bread and NOT the peanut butter! Both are important and thus both have to be realistic to a certain degree to simulate the overall effect.

-RODION

Hurribomber
10-28-2004, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Bismarck sent the Hood to the bottom in like 2 minutes though...
The Rodney also wasted 2 Destroyers in under 4 minutes in 1942 (from memory).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HMS Warspite hit the Giulio Cesare (Italian Battleship) with a shell from 14 miles away. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

WOLFMondo
10-28-2004, 06:50 AM
She also sunk 2 Italian cruisers at night.

Warspite was an incredible battleship though, I don't think another ship took so much punishment, and dished out so much punishment over the two wars compared to her.

Brakovitch
10-28-2004, 07:39 AM
KGV class had 10 14 inch guns no 15 inch. Doubt the guys on the receiving end could tell the difference. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
Pf must have changed the accuracy of the guns.
Need some data, but if the KG had the 15" gun . I think that gun design holds the record for longest recorded hit of the war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

clint-ruin
10-28-2004, 07:54 AM
For a while FB has also had some messed up ship attack ranges - I think last I looked the Destroyer Type 7 had the longest shooting range of any object in the game, almost double anything elses range.

From having played with this a lot in FB I think some people are underestimating just how truly annoying accurate BB barrages would be. Any combined sea-air attack in FB has to be very carefully controlled to make sure that the targets aren't wiped out before anyone even takes off. Given that ships basically fall under "things to land on, protect, or destroy" by air power in PF I think I can understand why they might have changed it.

Some accurate ranges and damage testing from the ships in PF would be good to get ahold of though, for FMB mission design reasons. Also helps to know how things stack up if people want to ask for changes. I don't think we're going to get much more than a general "1-10" sort of level of strengths of ships, but it would be nice if those rankings were based somewhat in reality.

WOLFMondo
10-28-2004, 03:39 PM
I noticed in FB the ships bombarding land based objects was a pain. I had a dogfight mission for practice with hundreds of vehicals, stationary planes etc so I thought to top it of I'd put the Turpitz in there as a huge target to torpedo practice on. Trouble was, no matter where I put it on the map, I'd taxi out onto the run way while she was directing all her main guns at me! 99% of the time till I removed it in favour of dry cargo ships I'd be dead before reaching the end of the run way!

They seem to be different in PF though, less accurate, even on ACE AI but detroyers seem to be deadly accurate. Im not asking for major changes or anything but i'd like the ships to at least be accurate based on there AI. So at least Ace wouldn't use up 1000 shells and hit nothing. A carrier at 20,000 yards should be easy picking for a BB.