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View Full Version : AI not leading target!



Bigpilot4u
11-01-2004, 10:15 PM
I don't know if you guys notice this also but, even though they usually shoot the enemy down when level or rolling and looping dogfights, I never see my friendly AI leading the target when they are shooting at them in a turn. They always seem to be shooting at the enemy directly and expend almost if not all of their ammo shooting and falling short of the enemy and then get shot down in turn. NE1 know how I can fix this or if there is a fix? Noticed it since FB and it's really annoying in PF.

WTE_Galway
11-01-2004, 10:30 PM
they also never adjust there shots

SeaFireLIV
11-02-2004, 05:35 AM
I`m no programer, but do you guys ever wonder how HARD it must be to make AI lead correctly? Remember when you first flew and had to LEARN that you needed to lead your target and even then it took a while to get it done right. I`ll bet making the AI do the same is not easy, especially avoiding it becoming super-accurate, therefore more complaints, or causing possibly more problems.

Oleg`s been working on this sim a LONG time and improved many things from how it used to be. I`m sure if he and his dev team can find a way to make the limited-brain AI aircraft lead realistically he will do...

For now, enjoy what`s been already accomplished.

Bigpilot4u
11-02-2004, 11:28 PM
no, I didn't mean any disresspect to Oleg. I think that the IL-2 series and the addons and other titles that the design team has created are the greatest flight sims ever created. Just pointing out one little thing I noticed. I can't wait to add even more when I pick up COMBAT OVER EUROPE tomorrow.

BlakJakOfSpades
11-02-2004, 11:39 PM
what game are you playing, i'm assuming AEP, it seems to me that in pacific fighters the ai leads a lot better on ace and veteran especially, its scary to hear the bullets hitting instead of going past your canopy to warn you first

jeroen-79
11-03-2004, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`m no programer, but do you guys ever wonder how HARD it must be to make AI lead correctly? Remember when you first flew and had to LEARN that you needed to lead your target and even then it took a while to get it done right. I`ll bet making the AI do the same is not easy, especially avoiding it becoming super-accurate, therefore more complaints, or causing possibly more problems. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It couldn't be that hard if you must avoid too much accuracy.

Lead can be determined by a few calculations using the bullets properties and the plane's speed and direction.

The reason we need to learn is because most people suck at fast calculations.
Computers are very good at it, which is why modern aircraft have computers to do the aiming.

Once the AI knows where to shoot it only has to turn that way.

Accuracy can be reduced by adding a random variation.

Bigpilot4u
11-03-2004, 10:20 AM
no no, I was talking about the friendly AI. The enemy seem to be able to do it effectively for some reason. LOL!

NorrisMcWhirter
11-03-2004, 10:30 AM
Hi,

Didn't Oleg say that we'd all be very surprised by the improvement in AI in PF....I can't remember what was said precisely but I recall something about AI being better at deflection shooting.

Dunno about you but I've not seen much evidence of that.

Cheers,
Norris

Fennec_P
11-03-2004, 01:49 PM
Maybe it will be better in BoB?

I hear it comes out in two weeks.

Bigpilot4u
11-03-2004, 10:10 PM
BoB comes out in 2 weeks? LMFAO! That's the first I've heard of it. I know the patch was gonna be 2 weeks and this is a little over week one at the npresent time. so hopefully little less than a week for some more cool stuff!!

269GA-Maxmars
11-04-2004, 01:38 AM
It's an old joke.. Whenever Oleg says "two weeks" it means "whenever it comes out". May be exactly two weeks, OR five months (like the first FB patch).

SeaFireLIV
11-04-2004, 03:42 AM
It`s not an old joke. I`ve been paying more attention to AI and they ARE deflection shooting. But I grow tired of this.

Humans are very subjective in what they THINK they AI is doing. Also, people keep complaining but refuse to tell us under what conditions they fly under. On too easy settings, the AI will not attempt to fly as well, meaning he won`t attempt deflection shooting much either. Also, the AI comes under several difficulty settings from `noob` to `Ace`. The higher the AI difficulty the more likely you`ll get an AI that knows it`s deflection shooting.

What`s the point complaining when half you guys won`t admit what conditions you fly in?

Sarpedon688
11-04-2004, 03:53 AM
It all depends on the skill of your wingmen. Keep them alive long enough and they'll learn to shoot - mine have & it only took me 6 mounths of caring for them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Blottogg
11-04-2004, 04:56 AM
I would imagine the difficult part of programming the Ai gunnery is not making it accurate, but making it inaccurate. The ballistics calculations are being made in the sim already, tapping into those to direct Ai gunnery wouldn't be too hard. The result would be accurate gunnery from any aspect, maneuver or range. What I think has happened is that the programmers have included an inaccuracy for Ai gunnery, at least for low aspect calculations.

At high aspects, the Ai is superhumanly accurate for Ace and Veteran settings. Average and Rookie may be accurate too, but they are programmed to break off forward quarter passes before firing. At low aspects, all Ai levels tend to under-lead. I'm sure you've all seen Ai chew up the outside wingtip of a target they're pursuing, regardless of the Ai's experience level. After numerous additions and patches, I'm convinced this was done deliberately, in order to achieve some workable compromise. If this dither hadn't been included, the Ai would consistantly hit their targets with the first burst (like Ace and Veteran bomber gunners often do.)

I'm no longer hoping for any radical changes to the Ai in the Il-2/FB/AEP/PF engine. Oleg and 1C are aware of these limitations, and hopefully will have more robust Ai when BoB ships.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-04-2004, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
It`s not an old joke. I`ve been paying more attention to AI and they ARE deflection shooting. But I grow tired of this.

Humans are very subjective in what they THINK they AI is doing. Also, people keep complaining but refuse to tell us under what conditions they fly under. On too easy settings, the AI will not attempt to fly as well, meaning he won`t attempt deflection shooting much either. Also, the AI comes under several difficulty settings from `noob` to `Ace`. The higher the AI difficulty the more likely you`ll get an AI that knows it`s deflection shooting.

What`s the point complaining when half you guys won`t admit what conditions you fly in? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

Conversely, you haven't stated what conditions you are flying in where you have seen the AI deflection shooting.

I was flying against various levels of AI in QMB (2 AI vs 1 - me) and co-op AI (unknown skill) and found that I can avoid their fire by just maintaining a turn slight enough to keep their tracers sailing nicely past.

An example of this was an online co-op Beaufighter strike on German shipping; at one point, I had 3 109G6s on my 6 and, using the above tactic, I managed to get them to expend their cannon ammo before turning on them and shooting down all 3 easily. OK, I don't know what AI level they were but they certainly weren't deflection shooting in any way that I'd define it.

If the AI get in close, they panel you but that's hardly deflection then shooting, is it?

I agree that it's hard to get decent AI in what amounts to a continually changing combat scenario but when someone announces that something is going to be 'noticeably better' your expectation is a step change....at any skill level.

From what you've said, then, I should expect deflection shooting from ace or veteran AI principally? I've not seen much of it from veteran so maybe it's confined to ace and I've just been too preoccupied to observe it?

Cheers,
Norris

mortoma
11-04-2004, 10:11 AM
Well whine if you will but the AI are leading a lot better in PF than they ever have before. Also please note that the AI will only do a good job leading when they are set to ace level. Rookie or average will not lead much at all and veteran AI are only so-so. Start setting AI to ace and you'll see a marked improvement.

SeaFireLIV
11-04-2004, 10:36 AM
I did mean to post under the conditions I fly, but that d a m n weird `can`t post, won`t post` screen came up again, blowing my entire detailed text! After that, and needing to get to work, I just put the basics down of what I wanted to say.

I don`t like to test in QMB. I usually do under `real` Campaign conditions. So basically I`m flying under CampaignAI=Hard, which makes the majority of AI enemys more likely to have Veteran and Aces to them. I like the mix and for me it`s truer testing conditions.

In the Pacific Campaigns I`ve been flying I have definitely had some AI planes attack me from AN ANGLE, trying to shoot me from behind to my far right or left, as I turn they`re shooting ahead of me. In other situations I`ve been chased in my F4F and when I try a turn he`ll miss at first, but then slowly correct until I can hear continuous rounds ripping into my aircraft, all I can do to escape is call for help and start BARREL-ROLLING like crazy, which works quite well... But gets confusing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Scissoring does not work quite so well and neither does flying the nap of the earth, AI`s not afraid to go low, but that`s beside the main issue here.

Once I was killed (black screen) from a shot that came not from a H to H, but from a SIDE shot parrallel to me. On the replay, it was an AI plane coming round to me shooting BEFORE and AHEAD.

If I can, I will try and produce Screenshots from any more similar situations and let you lot decide from that, but I believe they can now deflection shoot. Probably not as well as Humans, but they can, depending on skill level.

d a m n thing wouldn`t post again!

griego
11-04-2004, 11:36 AM
all i want to know is did they correct the blackout and redout on the AI. Oh yes and the seeing through clouds also. In PF.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-04-2004, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
Well whine if you will <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I do like how making a reasonable post is treated as whining by the self-appointed whine spotter royalty around here. Or were you being ironic in whining about my supposed whining? If so, well done.

Seafire:
I was flying with the campaign=hard setting, too, but I suspect that doesn't mean all AI are aces (or does it?). I'll have another try to see and try to post something myself.

Just for comparison, I cranked up Il-2 original last night and had a blast against 2 AI in various aircraft. I'd say that they were poorer than the AI in FB/AEP/PF but the battle was certainly more protracted due to the 'more difficult' FMs involved + the fact that the guns felt a lot weaker than they do now. In fact, I quite enjoyed myself having to think about what I was doing all over again.

Cheers,
norris