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MrQBerrt
05-05-2005, 10:17 AM
I recently read a post by Crazy Ivan over at SimHQ, I'm assuming this is the same Ivan, that is a mod here.

After PF piracy fiasco they[1C] broke, period.
And here is another post by Hunter82, whom I also think is a mod here.

One only needs to understand the damage software piracy has on a developer

I didn't know that the percieved piracy was so bad from the developers perspective. I would like to share this idea for an anti-piracy practice with you, I believe it would help.

Give a unique user acount with each sale of a 1C game and only let users download/install upgrades for 1C games if they have a user acount. That way, pirates get stuck with an unpatchable version of the game. And no one wants to play unpatched versions of 1C games. Especially since they can't play them online.

I don't want to get to long winded with this post, but if this idea intrigues you at all, please read this (http://indiegaming.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=209) article by Brad Wardell of Stardock Corporation. He says it better than I can, and he has the experiance to prove that it is a good idea, which I don't.

I hope, you guys take this post seriously. I'd hate to see 1C loose money over piracy, and I'd also hate to see them get an obnoxious anti-piracy policy implemented into BOB that hurts sales from geniune users who don't want to put up with anti-piracy hassels. I believe that this idea would help keep both of these things from happening and be cost-effective for 1C.

MrQBerrt
05-05-2005, 10:17 AM
I recently read a post by Crazy Ivan over at SimHQ, I'm assuming this is the same Ivan, that is a mod here.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> After PF piracy fiasco they[1C] broke, period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And here is another post by Hunter82, whom I also think is a mod here.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> One only needs to understand the damage software piracy has on a developer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know that the percieved piracy was so bad from the developers perspective. I would like to share this idea for an anti-piracy practice with you, I believe it would help.

Give a unique user acount with each sale of a 1C game and only let users download/install upgrades for 1C games if they have a user acount. That way, pirates get stuck with an unpatchable version of the game. And no one wants to play unpatched versions of 1C games. Especially since they can't play them online.

I don't want to get to long winded with this post, but if this idea intrigues you at all, please read this (http://indiegaming.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=209) article by Brad Wardell of Stardock Corporation. He says it better than I can, and he has the experiance to prove that it is a good idea, which I don't.

I hope, you guys take this post seriously. I'd hate to see 1C loose money over piracy, and I'd also hate to see them get an obnoxious anti-piracy policy implemented into BOB that hurts sales from geniune users who don't want to put up with anti-piracy hassels. I believe that this idea would help keep both of these things from happening and be cost-effective for 1C.

LeadSpitter_
05-05-2005, 10:31 AM
UBI marketing fools, get wise and release a dvd version of all three titles on one disk with the 4.0 patch when its available.

Call it Il2 AEP PF Platnium pack or somthing.

Sell it for $49, the sheer size of all three would stop many of the pirates.

Maybe include all those other planes, new maps, the pe2 and many other aircraft etc.

Work on making many of the existing ai only aircraft flyable.

Also optimize the game engine to run much smoother especially the ship flak.

Give existing customers something worth buying again and for those who pirated it having to get the updated version, its alot of work i release but each patch have a different type of il2fbnew.exe with different dlls and anti pirating files to cut back on those who pirated the game or some of the titles.

It would help out maddox alot and would help the customers out at the same time which is a win win situation.

VW-IceFire
05-05-2005, 10:39 AM
I like that DVD idea! Good one. That'd be great to promote the game.

MrQBerrt
05-05-2005, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> UBI marketing fools, get wise and release a dvd version of all three titles </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LeadSpitter_ Ubi is a large company. Sadly, a post in this forum propably wont be read or past onto any of the higher-ups in the Ubi Corporatin who are responsible for making these types of descisions. But Oleg on the other hand probably will read this post (when he's feeling a bit better). Also, relations between developers and publishers can be kinda odd on certain issues, piracy probably being one of them.

Brad's proposed scheme would allow 1C to implement anti-piracy pratcices without the help or hinderence of Ubi. And w/out ticking off their customers. Just like you say, "win-win"

BTW, the pirates I know (I'm a CSC major, I move in those circles) download many full DVD's and have no problem with it. Size is not a big hinderance to them (Although from a marketing perspective, it sounds like a great idea).

p1ngu666
05-05-2005, 11:02 AM
i liked the quake3 cdkey scheme tbh

i like not having to have the cd in the drive spinning up at random making a awful noise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-05-2005, 11:32 AM
I tend to agree with the original post, a regester for updates practice, combined with a cd-key individual to each disk (or set of disks) sounds like a good way to go. while someone sending out the proper cd-key for the pirated disk is not a dificult thing it does make it imposible to get patches with a regestration system. Also having the cd-keys specific to each disk eliminates the possibility of someone writing a "key generator" and people regestering with that. Just my opinion.

Capt_Haddock
05-05-2005, 12:19 PM
1. Release the game with tangible things that can't be easily copied:
- A proper book-size manual
- Big-size printed maps

2. Remove game-specific content from the game and include it exclusively in the printed material (like removing the in-game map to force people to use the printed version).

Of course those things can be scanned, but every little helps, and nothing beats a properly printed book.

http://www.haddock.f2s.com/sig/F19bannerh2.jpg

bigchump
05-05-2005, 01:12 PM
CFS2 did the book thing, but it had to be toned way down after beta testing. The third-grade-level questions were too difficult even for the beta testers.

EAF51_Ookami
05-05-2005, 01:31 PM
The idea is good but I'm afraid that "crackers" will always find their way to broke a protection...
Some years ago I was employed in a small software house that was in the Mac market. Our top-seller was a 3D architectural software with an hardware protection... a dongle in the scsi port.. you can image our surprise when we discovered that the protection was bypassed... and I'm talking about a software what in those years was sold at 11.000$.
I think that Capt. Haddock idea is more indicated and much more economic than a softare or hardware protection.

S!

Ookami

bigchump
05-05-2005, 01:46 PM
EAF51_Ookami, if you only had one "read dongle" function, no matter how often it's called, one has only to change that to a "return". The old DOS debugger was all you needed to hack that kind of dongle call.

I hope your company survived.

MrQBerrt
05-05-2005, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'm afraid that "crackers" will always find their way to broke a protection </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's one point of the article I linked, but you seem to be arguing against it by using the word "but". Instead of saying, "the idea is good but" ... It seems more appropriate to say, "the idea is good because crackers will always find a way to crack protection."

EAF51_Ookami
05-06-2005, 12:47 AM
@bigchump:

Can you run a DOS debugger on a Mac? read again my post... I've wrote that the company was (and is) in the Mac(intosh) market. Anyway... the same trouble was experienced by Autodesk... just to make a name... and they never solved it.

@MrQBerrt:

The point is another, at least for the big companies. Pirated software usually have a big shortcoming. No documentation, no helpdesk, no assistance, no updates.
Look at Half Life 2... Even with the Steam system to activate the game I can tell you that there is a lot of people around playing it with pirate copies. There is a lot of people playing online with pirate copies of World of Warcraft and there is a lot of people watching cable or satellite television without paying a single cent...
From my point of view, the battle against piracy must be fight on the quality ground... Give to the regular buyer something that a pirate copy will never have... I've bought an original copy of HL2 because I liked the collector edition metal box with the t-shirt inside. I've bought Warcraft III because I liked the special content of the collector edition.
From my point of view and from my experience, that's the way to follow.

S!

Ookami

PE_Tigar
05-06-2005, 02:18 AM
One word--Steam.

I don't know how many users here would be disgusted by having to use such a service, but I'm pretty much certain that those would only be the bandwidth-impaired. On the other hand, value that Oleg would receive through this by cutting out the middlemen would be much more interesting then loosing, say, 10 percent of clients. On top of that, distributing from Russia using online method would prevent all the copyright ****.

quiet_man
05-06-2005, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrQBerrt:
...
Give a unique user acount with each sale of a 1C game and only let users download/install upgrades for 1C games if they have a user acount. That way, pirates get stuck with an unpatchable version of the game. And no one wants to play unpatched versions of 1C games. Especially since they can't play them online.
...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just some brainstorming

1. You need money to build up and maintain the administration
2. You need even more money to handle errors where legal users are blocked
3. Takes away money from development
4. Still not all people are online
5. How much is the average pirate interested in patches/upgrades?

why have games/music cds still the same average prise like years before? Producing cost have dropped heavily in this time and the people working in the stores don't get rich (at least not around here)

take a look at "low price" offers were the music industry makes a lot of money by selling CDs for one or two $/", unbelivable how low the production cost/reseller marge must be.

what about an option to download the game for little money? Maby one or two months after CD selling? Of course, side effect might be that traditional "publishers" become obsolete http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
so publishers don't realy love this option (see music publishers)


How I see the current situation:
Publishers earn incredible money. Thats wy they don't hesitate to put lots of money into copy protection and also into legals/politics (see file sharing)
it will eat up more and more of their earnings

with dropping prices/increasing performance of computer/Internet the gap to simple download becomes larger

year 20xx people need &lt; 5 Minutes to download 1 Gig
download IL2XX 1.1 $"
0.1 $" per download for publishing (server, line, ...)
1 $" for Oleg, how many downloads?

I would expect near zero piracy and maybe more money for Oleg than he ever gets from UBI (for one release)

quiet_man

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
05-06-2005, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
UBI marketing fools, get wise and release a dvd version of all three titles on one disk with the 4.0 patch when its available.

Call it Il2 AEP PF Platnium pack or somthing.

Sell it for $49, the sheer size of all three would stop many of the pirates.

Maybe include all those other planes, new maps, the pe2 and many other aircraft etc.

Work on making many of the existing ai only aircraft flyable.

Also optimize the game engine to run much smoother especially the ship flak.

Give existing customers something worth buying again and for those who pirated it having to get the updated version, its alot of work i release but each patch have a different type of il2fbnew.exe with different dlls and anti pirating files to cut back on those who pirated the game or some of the titles.

It would help out maddox alot and would help the customers out at the same time which is a win win situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'll go for it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

would be nice to have all products and Addons and Pachtes on one DVD.
maybe add an 1C:Maddox games T-Shirt and you'd have a nice Platinum pack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F16_Sulan
05-06-2005, 07:31 AM
-speculation-
A user-account thing preventing a pirate-copy to be updated seams a good idea I believe because:

Many of those who pirate the game would´nt have bought it if they could´nt get a pirate-copy I believe, so there is not much economical loss with them. But if you are to keep playing the game you´ll have to patch (and buy the game).

Also I believe (pure speculation) that piracy promotes the game in a way, I know I would´nt have gotten into the series if I had´nt gotten a burned disc from a friend saying: "hey try this you´ll like it".
And the CFS fanatic that I was I tryed IL2, uninstalled CFS and went to the game-store and bought IL2.
I believe there is a bunch of people having found the series this way. And by making it completely "unpiratable" you loose that marketing/promotion.

god forbid :P I played a pirate-copy of IL-2 my first 3 flights.
I think a user-account thing for patches might be good.
But then anything is better than it is now "rts.dll".

bigchump
05-06-2005, 08:21 AM
This is the worst one yet:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/bigchump/starprot.jpg
System slowdowns of 10% are not uncommon.
Some hidden drivers may not uninstall properly.
Cracks appeared after only two weeks.

I'd like to see Oleg use a "validation" system which would only require the original CD when downloading patches / updates. A "mail in" warranty card with a barcode to match the CD encryption would stop more illegal copies than any stinking CD copy protection scheme, and it wouldn't punish legitimate users.

M$ uses a validation check when upgrading windows XP and 2000. In just a few more months, users of bootleg Windows are going to be in for a nasty surprise when they try to upgrade.

lbhskier37
05-06-2005, 08:39 AM
Here is my take on this, when broadband was first maturing while I was in highschool, I discovered Warez. At my peak, I would dl about a game a month. From being involved in that community, I can attest to how dedicated those guys are at cracking software. There is always a way around software protection, and give them a week or so and the will crack it. My growing up and getting a real job has led me to buy all my own games now. The thing is, I don't buy a game a month. Developers get these statistics of how many people downloaded their game off Warez, and assume taht is lost sales. If there had never been Warez, I wouldn't have bought a tenth of the games I played in highschool. All the high tech copy protection, that today is getting invasive and dangerous (see Starforce on SHIII) is not going to stop Warez trading, but it will piss off a lot of paying customers. IL2 thankfully doesnt have all these drive destroying copy protections, but where I see them losing sales is in casual copying. Right now anyone that buys the game can make a quick ISO of it and send it to all his online flying buddies. This is where the real sales are lost because these people would buy the game otherwise. The simple solution to this I feel is some sort of CD key that is read by the program you connect to, to play online. This would limit a lot of the casual copying, because most of these guys that do it want to play online with their buddies.

quiet_man
05-06-2005, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F16_Sulan:
...
But then anything is better than it is now "rts.dll". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yea, one thing they should not forget: when legal use becomes more difficult than installing a pirated version, thats not good for business

quiet_man (looking at dusty SH3 disks)

LuckyBoy1
05-06-2005, 08:55 AM
Let's see... for the last year or so, I've been saying that serious flight sim development was in danger of dying and that Oleg and the gang are in a financial bind. We are our own worst enemy here. The problem is even more basic than the question of piracy.

Serious flight sims are expensive to develope and appeal to a relatively small audience and then we as a community complain about every little thing.

Any anti-piracy measures would take some up front costs to put in place. The business people have run the numbers and found it not worth doing. Who's fault is that? Look in the mirror for your answer.

mdewals
05-06-2005, 10:49 AM
my view is that they shouldnt spent a dime on anti-piracy software.....this will lower the total cost already....besides...no anti-piracy software has ever worked to date....

then lower the price to $20-25 and a lot more people will reconsider using warez....

not everybody is like most people here....lots of people play a game for a while, finish it, and then it gets added to the growing pile of games that never get touched again....

now this game does have a longer life that most other games though....but take Mafia for example....once you finished the game, the story has been told....lots of people wont play it again.....great game....but $50 bucks for few weeks of enjoyment is quite a lot.....esspecially if you can get that same amount of enjoyment for free.
if the game would be $25....a big group would reconsider...the original has a nice booklet and a map for example....wont get that with warez.....

I'm sure this concept can generate a bigger profit than the current situation.

lets not forget, pirating software is wrong....

quiet_man
05-06-2005, 03:52 PM
@LuckyBoy1

I would say there haven't been to much serious stuff around, isn't it just starting?

After a wave of FS we had a wave of cancels, but most was not serious and IL2 showed that it was an error to cancel everything. IL2 was planed for IL2 plane only, but after the others left the hole, Oleg jumped in and made more planes flyable.

Now there is few place between CFS and IL2 for other sims, but there are sims for non WWII planes and also non-serious "flightsims" are comming again

management by sheep tactics: everyone runs into the same direction, out of a sudden the herd changes direction. But most of them don't even know why they started running

I don't think the problem is in the mirror

quiet_man

Ed_the_sock
05-06-2005, 07:43 PM
Theres something called FADE - which allegedly degrades the game if it detects that its been pirated. If it was implemented circumspectly (and publicised) you could never be sure whether you had poor gunnery skills, or just bad luck, or whether the game was messing with you. Etc etc.

And as Oleg apparently encrypts the code (after 4 years, there aren't any mods or cheats - lag cheat aside), it would seem quite possible to do this.

nearmiss
05-06-2005, 11:41 PM
We can talk until we're out of breath. One thing should be carved in stone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

The Oleg and crew will do whatever they want about security. I certainly hope they're not as stupid about security as SilentHunter III or Lomac 1.1. Those guys have squared off and shot their market. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

That Starforce thing is a darned monster. Lomac 1.1 has probably lost 50% or more of their prospective buyers. Guys like me won't have it on their computers I don't care how http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif "sweet it is".

Everyone in the game business knows the majority of sales are in the first month. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif That's pretty well the biggest rush they ever have and there is some trickle through sales after that.

Lomac can't change their security and bump their sales much longer. The Lomac will be a dead horse, and probably already is for the most part. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

The few people that bootleg software have so many issues with virus, spyware and other little nasty cr#p. There is a reason people put software up on bootleg sites for free download, and it ain't generosity of their hearts kinda stuff either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HFC_Dolphin
05-07-2005, 02:33 AM
Totally against buying AGAIN the same stuff. No DVD for me please and actually I would consider this as an offensive marketing move against my customer rights.

Now regarding this Starlite in SH3 that you write.
What's the deal with it? I've recently bought and installed it and I hope it does not affect negatively my PC - especially towards my IL2 playing experience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Any info on this please?

S!

TooCool_12f
05-07-2005, 03:07 AM
As I said in another thread about it sometime ago, I think that they may succeed in making the game very difficult to pirate by just making the copy protection difficult to reach.

right now, it's in a small file named "rts.dll"... which has been cracked only a few days after release, if my memory serves well.

On the other hand, the game itself has never been decrypted... with its unique structure, it's based on those big files that are handling everything in the game and are encrypted. they seem quite "safe", so, how about putting the cd protection inside a big sfs file (some 450-500MB ), which, remember, is cripted? just opening such a file for editing, without the way to decypoher it ni the first place may prove much to difficult and complicated for a cracker, to loose time on it.

Blackjack174
05-07-2005, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by quiet_man:
yea, one thing they should not forget: when legal use becomes more difficult than installing a pirated version, thats not good for business
quiet_man (looking at dusty SH3 disks) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try reselling it , at least helped me cheering up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
I will NEVER get a StarforceProtected game again, and no , even if that DVD-check is patched away its still in the system, I dont like it , and how good a game is , it cant outweight this ****ing piece of device driver.
We live in a time where games install GB´s of data and need the DVD/CD inserted ?
I dont think so.
And I too knew people in school years back that copied every new game and almost played none of them, and mostly they ended up buying the ones they played.
As I read elsewhere 1c released the il2 series (or maybe since il2FB) with Starforce in russia, if that is true I hope its not the future, I seriously would like to know how much money is spent per unit for the copy protection.
Hard to imagine that there where games without any protecion whatsoever, remembering installing my falcon4 and thats was it about the CD , and dont tell me MicroProse went down because of mass pirating Falcon 4.0 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Back then the money was spent for enourmous manuals , THAT was why you wanted the ORIGINAL, noone who ever pirated that hat something like it, it contained background info , it was getting you in the mood being a fighter pilot (same with EAW/AOD manual), now compare those "books" with the "quick reference booklets" in il2series (il2 would have been greatly enhanced with more detailed background info , more so FB with finish war etc.)
Or take Aces Of The Deep, it had very good background info, now SilentHunter is not a bad game , but have you seen the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif manual ?
P.S. : im not a fan of online validation for SINGLEPLAYER , but if Il2 series would authenticate itself with a unique key or simply prohibit onlineplay with &gt;2 valid keys that are identical I would be all for it, but UBI is generally going for the "worst case cenario" regarding copyprot. in the last games for me, definately NO GO from my side.

nearmiss
05-08-2005, 01:32 PM
Blackjack174

My man...yu too kool with the avatar.

What were you saying? Surprise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'm still http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

cow9th
05-11-2005, 03:22 AM
hows this for an idea

release the game worldwide on the same day

the all your unimportant european users wont have 1 month to download a copy of the yanks.

cant do that with any game though can they.

Mysticpuma2003
05-11-2005, 10:08 AM
I still don't know why 1C don't do this. It was effective and still is, however here's a slight addition to it.

The game has a cd-key (that's obvious) and a list is compiled of keygens and pirate CD keys. These are logged in a main server (like MOH and CoD and Doom3) and when a player goes online this has to be authorized. If it detects a duplicate key, the player has to enter another authentic key. Obviously if he's using a keygen, it will still generate a algorithm of that other key so it will not work. This means that the game deletes the key he originally used, meaning that the game has to be installed again.

Ok, so the guy doesn't go online, but he plays the game offline using a crack.

Why not run a system like CFS3 did. It checks the size of the original exe file. If it's a cracked one the patch wont install. Then on top of that when the patch runs it could also have the keygen serials listed inside so that the patch wont install if it finds a key that already exists.

Just a few thoughts, but I do like the idea of a one-off DVD installer for everything upto patch 4.

Aaron_GT
05-11-2005, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2. Remove game-specific content from the game and include it exclusively in the printed material (like removing the in-game map to force people to use the printed version). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately it only takes one person to scan it and post it online...

What would be nice are some detailed versions of the maps in pdf form (that look like actual maps) that we can print out and put on clipboards or kneeboards and then have the host disable the entire map for online play.

Aaron_GT
05-11-2005, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">release the game worldwide on the same day </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's more expensive to do then doing it in a staged way.

If you release it worldwide on the same day you need to have printed the media, CDs, etc., ahead of time. So you either need to pay for more units to be printed per day or have to pay for more warehousing space to store the products prior to release. These days the mantra is for everything to be just-in-time.

An alternative might be to release the physical product at different times but allow downloads of the product from day one but the IL2 series has grown so large that might not be practical in this case.

Another idea is to allow the game to run in a demo mode but with a key required for the product to be fully unlocked, the key being generated afresh on install based on a hash of details of computer components. The hash of computer component details would mean that you couldn't share your download with someone else and have them use it as anything other than a demo, but being able to share it as a demo would help spread the game. If the recipient of a copy decided they liked it they could apply to have the game unlocked. The downside is that if you reinstalled with new components you would need to apply for a new unlock key. It's basically the same sort of system as Windows XP activation.

crazyivan1970
05-11-2005, 04:14 PM
Just one to point out one thing... levels of security are not up to Oleg.

Cheers!

canucksledge
05-11-2005, 04:35 PM
Whilst I would never ever try to imply Microsoft is an expert on security at all, cause we all know they aren't...

Windows XP Corp was available before it was even released, despite the daring new scheme to protect themselves from casual piracy, as well as a ton of resources and knowledge to pull on to prevent it...Turns out that copy is still the best to have when doing a fresh install.

It's not possible to protect against it. I'm for bringing costs down, because I know most of us really do feel there should be a reward for the developers. Otherwise there won't be anything left to pirate. Anything over 50 bucks Canadian is too much, and will be pirated more than sold. You'll pull in less in the end than you would had it been say, 40 bucks. I bet that could be proven should someone do a study.

Most grown ups bend to guilt when they know the stuff in the box is worth it. I know I do...I won't claim to be a saint, and anyone here who does is lying (remember, shareware is NOT free...that includes Winzip!!), but I can honestly say 100% that anything that stayed on my drive for more than 20 minutes after install got bought within a week. That includes shareware.

Personally I like the look of a stack of boxes on my bookshelf. I collect flight sims, got original boxes dating back to Jet, Falcon (the first of a long line) and Battlehawks 1942...literally thousands of dollars in software alone, some worth it, some not.

For what it's worth, my humble opinion!

jarink
05-11-2005, 11:06 PM
Piracy will be here always; there's no getting around it.

Some important points:
1. Copy protection schemes will get cracked. They are starting to be cracked faster than ever before.
2. The majority of legal users are starting to get fed up with copy protection schemes that are either invasive (Starforce), irritating (CD checks) and are cracked within a week. Why should legitimate consumers have to put up with stuff that is not doing any good preventing piracy?
3. A system like MS's "Genuine Windows" program may prevent a pirate from downloading updates of freebies, but they do not currently prevent someone with a legitimate copy sharing those downloads with their pirate pals.
4. An internet activation scheme is just as vulnerable to cracking as CD copy protection.
5. Server-based protection would require every server to be registered somehow with 1C/UBI. (Even then, it could be cracked!) No more hosting your own server?

I think the best way to prevent piracy is to provide something of tangible value in the box. Lots of "Special Edition" games come in fancy boxes or have T-shirts, strategy guides, etc in them. Those kinds of things cannot be pirated! On the other hand, they do increase cost to the publisher. Would that additional cost be offset by reduced piracy? I don't know.

Encryption of files and patches may be the best middle ground, but won't prevent all cracking (like sharing CD keys).

Time to think outside the digital box! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Aaron_GT
05-12-2005, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Those kinds of things cannot be pirated! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, Gucci, Nike, etc. might disagree! It is just that the cost-benefit point of doing so is different.

canucksledge
05-13-2005, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:

3. A system like MS's "Genuine Windows" program may prevent a pirate from downloading updates of freebies, but they do not currently prevent someone with a legitimate copy sharing those downloads with their pirate pals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't work. It's as easy now to bypass this that most IT and Systems admins I know do them that way even when legit...just cause it's a pain to administer. I assume you are talking about the XP windows update, or office update things...

Just download a product code changer, most come with a list of good serials...and cross your fingers that you follow the directions closely and aren't into a new install. It's all highly illegal, but so is pirating games, books, ships, anything...so don't do it.

Blackjack174
05-13-2005, 04:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by canucksledge:
Just download a product code changer, most come with a list of good serials...and cross your fingers that you follow the directions closely and aren't into a new install. It's all highly illegal, but so is pirating games, books, ships, anything...so don't do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There where even programms that "asked" M$ servers "is my key correct", but many many times in a row, until it had a correct one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif , well that wasnt so brilliant with SP2 and key validation technique, was it.
Now how many $$$ where spent setting up such servers that , in the end, even send out real product keys ?!?
I think the problem today is greedy publishers and the "blame the pirates" excuse to push the price and assemble something painful for the customer to deal with, not to mention giving him small plastic boxes with "licenses", didnt feel that way in the past , did it ?
And remember , EULA´S grow with publisher size http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hunter82
05-13-2005, 06:59 PM
personally I would really like a license validation for online play and also a install code per cd and exe/rts.dll checking for patching.

Yes codes can be created but when checked online no 2 can be in a server at one time.....most squads that pirate and YES THERE ARE MANY WHO DO...will not be able to play together online using the same cd key...

Copy protection is garbage and only truly effects the legit user with a RW drive.

I could care less about starforce if it works to force people to actually purchase the...it just take too **** long to start the game with it running.


Then again most who complain about copy protection at times have me wondering if they own a legit copy or not.

Hunter82
05-13-2005, 07:01 PM
PF was released in Europe first and was out 2 days before gold on the net.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cow9th:
hows this for an idea

release the game worldwide on the same day

the all your unimportant european users wont have 1 month to download a copy of the yanks.

cant do that with any game though can they. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jetbuff
05-14-2005, 12:41 AM
Just wanted to echo lbhskier37's sentiment. Pirated copies are NOT lost sales. They are an infringment on copyright, but pirates simply do not buy software they can't pirate.

Oleg should focus on doing what SH3 did, adding soul to the game in addition to his incredible attention to detail. A wider marketplace is what any sim needs. Touting ultra-accurate FM's and DM's only appeal to us realism freaks and we are a sad dwindling bunch. BoB needs to be a great game first and an excellent simulation second - and believe me it hurts me to say this but it's simply necessary.

Finally, like CrazyIvan said, protection policy is usually in the hands of the publisher, and unless you're buying the Russian version that means UbiSoft and - even more scary - likely Starforce. *shudder*

Aaron_GT
05-14-2005, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There where even programms that "asked" M$ servers "is my key correct", but many many times in a row, until it had a correct one </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That particular exploit is an exploitation of an omission in the design of the server and is easy to fix by stopping serving a particular IP address after a couple of requests. Yes, you can then start coming in with different IP addresses, but that's much less convenient. You can't stop things being pirated but you can make it sufficiently inconvenient that most people won't bother. You are then left with a rump of people who can be bothered and put the result up on a warez server but few people genuinely interested in a piece of software go looking on warez servers.

The cost of the servers to serve out activiation codes could probably be relatively modest, but it would make sense to have a small cluster that is shared for all game activation code serving since you get peak demand for a particular game but not that many games released at once. The issue is more that someone might decide to do a DOS attack on the servers.

Mjollnir111675
05-14-2005, 06:07 AM
PAY PER PLANE!!


Have half or a quarter of the planes in box and the other half retrievable thru an account.
By this I mean, have a card with an account number printed on a card or perhaps in the manual.
The account number included would give purchaser credits to download the rest of the planes and any future available planes.(an online hangar if you will.
Make single engine planes worth so many credits, 2 engine,4 engine etc. etc.
Credits would be replenished by a paypal account or whatever Oleg would like to use.
Price of each would br determined by the Dev team.
And yes once you buy them that info will be stored with the account and despite un/reinstalls once you access yer account by way of account number you are back.
Accounts also auto update patches.

Now you might say "Well if my dude Johnny has a plane wont I be able to get it from him?"

No. Especially online because once online if you transferred yer plane to him it would be corrupted because it has only been cleared for yer machine,yer account number.

I guess the idea would really enrage the online squads but hey you still end up gettin all the planes cept the pirates dont.And you guys I feel would def go along with it cuz yall would need the same lot of rides.
downside would be everytime ya fired the game up it would have to go online to see if you have "paid For" the rides you have.
And questionable would be: could the skinners still skin them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

But fer ppl like me who dont really need all the planes offfered I could keep the set I like and use credits to acquire any future rides.

But really in my eyes it seems like most of the piracy comes from within on a very cllose level.
Like good cloak & Dagger schtuff.
Remember PF was pirated before it was ever printed.
Now do you think some pirate anywhere but in Russia got his hands on it?
&lt;Glass breaks, <span class="ev_code_RED">T</span> actical <span class="ev_code_RED">W</span> arez <span class="ev_code_RED">A</span> ssault <span class="ev_code_RED">T</span> eam drops thru ceiling skylight to snatch the raw master from Olegs work HD.&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Jetbuff
05-14-2005, 04:14 PM
Boy, is that a convoluted idea if I ever saw one.

Piracy is gonna happen. The initial suggestion of updates only available to registered users appears to me to be the least intrusive and yet sufficiently effective at allaying publisher/developer fears of wide-scale piracy. It won't increase sales, but it will make them feel good about whatever sales numbers they achieve.

GT182
05-14-2005, 06:33 PM
Here's an idea.. forget StarForce or any other protection system first off. Put games out on the market with an unfixable system virus. Only if you buy the game, have a special code for registration, each cd or dvd being different, and once installed the virus is on a time delay. You then have a certain amount of time to email for the lock to stop the virus. Make sure the pirates can't get the code and their systems are so screwed up that the then start buying games for their NEW computers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LOL This makes just as much sence as as anything else. Pirates will pirate software no matter what is done. I don't think there's any way in h*ll that they can be stopped... short of getting caught and paying a hefty fine and possible prison time. That alone might scare a few into going straight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LuckyBoy1
05-14-2005, 06:51 PM
Did you know on the old DOS operating systems, Cousin Billy did just that?! I stink the rules won't let 'em do that.

However, anyone kidding themselves into thinking serious WWII flight simulation development will continue at a loss, you are mistaken! You may call the measures to stop this extreme and yes, I'm not all S{its and grins about it either, but unless they move aggressively to at least try and stop the piracy, we can kiss the development of this game goodbye and I simply do NOT want to see that happen.

whitetornado_1
05-14-2005, 09:14 PM
Well I have Soldiers:Heroes of WWII,
with Starforce and Brothers in Arms,
OFP,COD and UO with punkbuster
protection and I don't see a big differnce
start up time so I have to agree
with Hunter in saying that I don't care
about the type of protection.

I think the people that complain the most are the game copiers because they lose.

They can't play online.

jarink
05-14-2005, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GT182:
Pirates will pirate software no matter what is done. I don't think there's any way in h*ll that they can be stopped... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. That's why I honestly think that software publishers need to find different ways of discouraging pirates rather than dumping more and more $$$ into copy-protection schemes. It's not just the extra $$$ needed for creating the copy protection in the first place, but there are extra dollars lost due to more support calls (rts.dll, anyone?)

Current copy protection schemes are a lose-lose scenario, in my opinion.

Hunter82
05-15-2005, 08:06 AM
I would suggest THIS (http://www.big-boys.com/articles/trunkmonkey.html) Why not it works on cars http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
05-15-2005, 08:23 AM
You can't stop piracy. There's too much money involved..and when there isn't money involved, there is too much kudos involved in cracking.

Niche products will also be larger targets for the 'try before you never buy' brigade.

Ta,
Norris

GT182
05-15-2005, 08:40 AM
LMAO.... Good one Hunter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BTW... we ARE the losers when software is pirated. Why? Because we then pay higher prices for the game we love so much to compensate for the loss. Same thing as insurance fraud or shoplifting. Do either and see what you get when caught. Piracy is the SAME thing and should have the SAME penalties.

BelaLvgosi
05-15-2005, 03:18 PM
On a small note, I find starforce an ofense for anyone who buys a game and has to deal with a driver silently instaled monitoring ide activity. Even if it didn't affect the user, it would be like if you bought oil for your car and to use it, you'd be forced to place a big sticker of advertise for it on your hood by a contract you couldn't avoid.

It's principle is as wrong as addware or spyware. FADE is another PITA, causing more trouble to legal users than crackers, as it happened with the first toca race driver where cars would fly. It would also cause suspicions, confusions and major problems on online play, where legal users would see others doing crazy stuff spoiling gameplay for those who paid for it.
Currently safedisc is half decent, later versions cant be recorded 1:1 so they need to be cracked.
In the past it was common for servers to check both exe version and size so a crack would be easy to fin, altough loaders and other crack tools can circunvent it.
I'd say keep safedisk but protect something that changes from patch to patch. By this way crackers would have to provide a fix for every update as with any other game, but what changes is that this game isn't that popular, so for more than a first release crackers probably wouldn't bother as it happened with a lot of games. Safedisk plus an online (ONLY) code as quake3 and the first half life would be the way to go IMHO, as it doesn't cause trouble to most users. It's also a way to keep games selling some years after when they are budget only because of the code, as I know some people who bought HL1 recently only because of it.

Still, if BoB comes with SF3 I won't buy it for a matter of principles. The same happens with those cds that don't have the CD logo, with lots of wrong bits that must be corrected (but sound quality is affected) during stream play on your stereo but will give tons of errors with digital extraction or in older hi-fi bitstream cd players on which they sound awfull. There are many cds from artists which I love that I simply didn't bought because of this. (not that I'm a big fan, but remember the Beasty Boys scandall)
If you buy an original release it's because of quality for the best user experience and added value, sf3 or pdf manuals don't match this, even if the later is a very small problem compared to intrusive protections. Come on, please add at least a cardboard key reference.