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View Full Version : Stick-Sturring: valid tactic or exploitation of online play?



fullrealfly3r
05-03-2004, 04:42 PM

fullrealfly3r
05-03-2004, 04:42 PM

Steaky_361st
05-03-2004, 05:02 PM
I voted cheese because I dont think its a "valid" tactic as it is kinda loserish to do it online as a wussy way to evade yur pursuer. Although I dont think it is a cheat either as it is not hacking into the game code to get an unfair advantage over others. I just think its a wussy tactic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Steaky

VW-IceFire
05-03-2004, 06:22 PM
Porpoising as I understand it by your definition I've seen and I don't see much problem there. You push and pull on the stick...its bloody hard to hit some aircraft doing this and I sort of think of it as a negative/positive G version of the scissors.

Stick stiring I have seen (now that I know what it is) and in a aircraft like the P-39 and other slow firing or limited ammo belt fighters this is definately a problem. A FW190 or a P-51 has less of a problem...if they stick stir then I've got some 30 or 40 seconds worth of ammo belt that I'm going to spray at you till you fall apart. With a P-39's cannon its more of a problem.

The stiring thing is cheese. But its not cheating. Cheating implies breaking outside of the normal realm of the controls imposed by the game world. You can and are alowed to stir your stick and offline it does almost nothing...online it has an "unforseen" consequence. I kind of hope its fixed but there are ways to mitigate this problem (usually with good servers) regardless of if its fixed at the source.

Neither deserve as much attention as other pontential cheats.

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Slammin_
05-03-2004, 06:31 PM
I hate all the threads that teach those that didn't know about such ****. Not that it matters though. When I run into an ugly flier, I tell them they fly ugly, and you gotta admit, when someone is flying like that, 'ugly' best describes what it looks like. Just plain ol' nasty.

Too bad the blackout routines can't catch it.

jenikovtaw
06-02-2004, 11:55 AM
Servers should limit their player slots to what they can handle, not what looks cool.

Some servers that run 22 and 24 people stutter every time someone spawns up, thats unacceptable.

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RedDeth
06-02-2004, 12:06 PM
this is a joke right....if you move your joystick too fast nothing happens no response.

i think it has more to do with packet loss than cartwheels causing the lagg.

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Tully__
06-02-2004, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
this is a joke right....if you move your joystick too fast nothing happens no response.

i think it has more to do with packet loss than cartwheels causing the lagg.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or the pursuer's vid card can't keep up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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Bearcat99
06-02-2004, 12:24 PM
The funny part is now a whole bunch of guys are going to be "stirring thier sticks" in an attempt to evade someone on thier stick. LMAO http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Its so funny... a BS tactic like this pops up and people start trying it... to see if it works.... yet you have the people who say..."Oh if only Oleg would open up the code for user modifications to be possible.... who says thats going to bring in a bunch of cheating?" LMAO....

The cheat that aint... LMAO

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Heavy_Weather
06-02-2004, 12:33 PM
well Bear said it all, you'll see more of this now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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SUPERAEREO
06-02-2004, 12:40 PM
I see planes falling from the sky... lots of broken sticks... queues in games stores to get new ones... more broken sticks... more planes spinning out of control... more broken sticks...

Well it's good for the industry, I suppose...

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T_O_A_D
06-02-2004, 12:43 PM
Will you see more of this now??? Or will you now have a name to call what you've been seing all along???

It's lame and cheese. Sturring is the the other if done properely is a valid tactic. No different than jinking.

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_VR_ScorpionWorm
06-02-2004, 12:56 PM
CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Doesnt seem as a valid tactic at all from any point of view when it comes to online play nor is it any kind of cheat. All is said above.

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BaldieJr
06-02-2004, 12:58 PM
STIRRING. As in, STIR a pot of soup. Of which, you all get none, as you can not spell.

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HH Quazi
06-02-2004, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
I hate all the threads that teach those that didn't know about such ****. Not that it matters though. When I run into an ugly flier, I tell them they fly ugly, and you gotta admit, when someone is flying like that, 'ugly' best describes what it looks like. Just plain ol' nasty.

Too bad the blackout routines can't catch it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the same thing when I started to read it. Those that didn't know about it , sure know about it now. Kind of funny. Kind of not.

SeaFireLIV
06-02-2004, 01:09 PM
I find this `stick-stirring` thing a bit of a puzzle. Some say it`s a cheat of twisting the stick too fast for the server to recognise, therefore producing unpredictable results.

But on the other hand, isn`t this just an accidental panic-response of mostly new flyers who suddenly find themselves under attack who have no wish to cheat, just escape?

When I first flew online and was attacked I had no real idea how to escape, I knew they were tactics, but did not know to do them, so I thought:
"If I just fly madly, I`ll be unpredictable and he won`t be able to shoot me down!"

So I would twist and turn and do whatever I could to bamboozle my pursuer. I just acted mad with my stick in hope!

Was I stick-stirring? No one ever complained and this was about 3 years ago.

The point I`m trying to make is that this may be an `emperor`s new clothes` situation from people who`re looking too hard to find cheats everywhere. There`s actually nothing there!

Oh, and I was easily shot down, although I think I may have thrown off my attackers at first. Only when i spent the time to learn proper tactics did start to survive longer.

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Platypus_1.JaVA
06-02-2004, 02:17 PM
I've never seen this, probably only happens on kiddie servers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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F19_Ob
06-02-2004, 02:28 PM
Ohh...This must be a joke...hehe and a funny one too...Well anyway.....this is a good way to fool those cheating into destroying their sticks...since most are so weak....hehe...a good trick indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

NegativeGee
06-02-2004, 03:00 PM
Sounds a bit like some stuff I've seen on Planetside where the player can step from side to side rapidly and due to the serverside movement tracking an opponent sees them "warp" from position to postion as their machines movement prediction code goes screwy.

Don't think it would work with IL-2 quite the same though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-02-2004, 03:18 PM
I've tried "stick Stirring" online with a few buddies, to determine if any lag was caused....none was found. Could have just been host's machine being a good one. A lees than adequate machine will have all sorts of odd goings on when more players than it can comfortably handle are in the game. Sure the connection setup might be able to handle 14 players but the machine itself could only handle 8
It is more lag caused by the time it takes for information to go from player 1 to the host, then on to player 2 then back again to player 1, that causes the lag and the jinking position of the target as you go to shoot, could be the souncard can't quite process the engine sound of the target as you get close either
Porpoising is quite a valid tactic when trying to build up speed to catch a fast opponent or evade a bandit. Running rabbit involves almost any means of avoiding the lead, though I don't quite agree with stirring the cake mix type method.

RevvinUK
06-02-2004, 05:03 PM
I consider it a cheat, a pretty low-down dirty one too. Just because you're not modifying the code does'nt mean it's not a cheat. If you stick stir you are intentionally using a known problem with the net code to give yourself an advantage. I've seen it done in most online flight sims I've played including Warbirds where they took the rather draconian method of reducing the roll rates of the planes. Personally I kinda liked the way Aces High did it, if you stir the stick you're controls freeze up for a few seconds forcing you to fly with greatly reduced capability, do that with an enemy plane on your six and the stick stirrer gets his just desserts...a lead enema!

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antifreeze
06-02-2004, 05:26 PM
'Stick-stirring' is more-or-less just 'jinking'. When players are caught unaware and tracers start flying over their cockpit, the natural and correct reaction is to jink until you can find out more about the situation.

The problem online is that when a target is flying straight and you are creeping up behind him, his lag is not noticable because your computer's 'guesses' about where he is now and where he is going to be in one or two seconds are fairly accurate; his vector is not changing much, so his future position is easy to compute.

However, when a target starts jinking, your computer can only guess where he will be by using his last known vector. So when his new position is updated, and your computer 'got it wrong', the target appears to jump around.

The point is that your lag is usually pretty consistent. Flying in a straight line or sweeping curves does not betray your lag much. Jinking does. But moving your joystick around does not create lag, it just displays the lag that you already had. Your joystick data is not being sent anywhere; only a snap-shot of your aircraft position and vector is being sent, and this is sent at regular intervals, independent of your joystick movement. Moving your joystick around fast will not create 'extra internet data', as suggested.

So I will continue to jink, as I'm sure most people will. Rapidly, randomly moving your joystick around will not change your vector as much as a slower, more co-ordinated jink, anyway.

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Odranoel1
06-02-2004, 05:46 PM
I have been accused of cheating after having running home towards help while aggressively banking and otherwise moving my plane around. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
The unpleasant part is how people "who know" insult those they believe are cheating but genuinely weren't.
When using the "run for help" tactic, I intend to continue using stick movements that are fast, random. but reasonable from a physics standpoint and aimed at moving my planes' heading or banking (not rotations or god knows what other unrealistic movement).
My goal is to evade enemy fire by being unpredictable without losing my speed. I am assuming that the IL-2 code will punish stupid joystick input with loss of E. If it doesn't there may be some room for improvement?

This said, I have frequently seen planes vanish from a place (like my gunsight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif) and appear in a totally different place, the message "cheat detected" is displayed, but because of my own experience I did not accuse or even react. How does that happen and why don't these cheaters (maybe?) get kicked since the server seems to detect that they did cheat?

antifreeze
06-02-2004, 07:11 PM
Odranoel1, to reply I refer to my previous post:

&gt; only a snap-shot of your aircraft position and vector is being sent,
&gt; and this is sent at regular intervals

When a player has a disrupted connection or packet loss, the above process is disrupted and the new position/vector is not received when it is expected. This results in much more pronounced jumps and/or 'warping'.
Sometimes the game detects the disruption and prints the 'cheating has been detected' message.
That message is totally innaccurate and should be removed. What it really means is that packets of data are being held up/lost. Obviously this usually has nothing to do with cheating and everything to do with fluctuations on the internet.

You can change the message that displays on your hud
(even if the host has the original 'cheating message' still set on his machine):

-open FB/i18n/netmessages.properties in wordpad

-Edit the lines that start:
user_cheating1
user_cheating2
user_cheating3

-For instance, mine now read:
user_cheating1 {0} : connection may be causing lag(1)
user_cheating2 {0} : connection may be causing lag(2)
user_cheating3 {0} : connection may be causing lag(3)

The {0} prints the person's nickname.
There are three messages because the 'auto-kick' settings allow for up to three 'warnings' before dropping a player.

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Training given on request.
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[This message was edited by antifreeze on Wed June 02 2004 at 06:56 PM.]

heywooood
06-02-2004, 07:26 PM
oh brother.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

tttiger
06-02-2004, 08:09 PM
I've never seen any evidence of real stick stirring in IL-2 or FB.

It appears many of you don't even know what it is. It's NOT jinking and it's NOT violent evasive movements and it's NOT a "normal response."

It's vibrating the stick with your hand within a very small area of stick throw. It's also called stick-warping.

In WarBirds it was a very effective cheat but I think it may be more effective in massively multiplayers than hosted servers as FB has. A massively mulitplayer has hundreds of pilots using a single large dedicated server.

To the pilot following a stick warper, the plane ahead of him is bouncing all over the screen like a ping-pong ball.

You definitely know it when you see it. I personally have NEVER seen it in FB.

In WarBirds, it was very frowned upon by the community and getting a rep as a stick warper was likely to result in being shunned by everyone else in the arena. Even the pilots on your own side stopped talking to you. It actually was pretty good self-policing.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's a problem here. If it is used, however, it definitely is a cheat because it makes your airplane appear to do things even a UFO would have trouble doing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ttt

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Atomic_Marten
06-03-2004, 07:13 AM
If u can cheat with just using the joystick, I don't consider it a cheat. So I vote that it is not a cheat. However I've never play online, and not fully understand what it exactly means or looks like --- but problem is in the game not the gamers who are using it.

Diablo310th
06-03-2004, 08:06 AM
if this is cheating then no wonder GoodKight thinks I'm warping all over the place when he is on my six. LOL If you had goodKnight on ur six and u were in a Jug u would be doing anything and everything u could to escape too.

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