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Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 08:08 AM
despite the fact that IL2 is not perfect and it's far from it, but it's the best fligth sim for me today, I like to try do all fligth procedures according to the real life.

I always down flaps, lock tail wheel and apply trottle, at though it was not 100 %.

but today I was already tired of fly and watched the training tutorial about take off. there I find some contradictions with the way I was doing this procedure. the instructor tell to hold down the brakes until reach max trottle. I never do this, I just open the trottle and let the plane roll by itself. the only exection was in runnways and carriers where the planes have chocks engaged.

but if someone could help me my question is, wat of procedures is historical correct ?

I should engage the brakes until reach full trottle or should let the plane roll by itself ?

I'm a little problematic and extremely perfeccionist person, but I'm really in doubth about this.

since now thanks to everyone who read this topic!

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 08:08 AM
despite the fact that IL2 is not perfect and it's far from it, but it's the best fligth sim for me today, I like to try do all fligth procedures according to the real life.

I always down flaps, lock tail wheel and apply trottle, at though it was not 100 %.

but today I was already tired of fly and watched the training tutorial about take off. there I find some contradictions with the way I was doing this procedure. the instructor tell to hold down the brakes until reach max trottle. I never do this, I just open the trottle and let the plane roll by itself. the only exection was in runnways and carriers where the planes have chocks engaged.

but if someone could help me my question is, wat of procedures is historical correct ?

I should engage the brakes until reach full trottle or should let the plane roll by itself ?

I'm a little problematic and extremely perfeccionist person, but I'm really in doubth about this.

since now thanks to everyone who read this topic!

Lt_Letum
01-25-2009, 08:50 AM
You won't get a straight answer for this because
there isn't one. It varied from training school
to training school, airforce to airforce and
pilot to pilot.
Holding brakes and throttling up was certainly
common, but not universal.

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 09:11 AM
moderators, please can you do a favor to me and delet this topic if possible?

sorry for being use this term, but I was a big idiot by creat it.

and thank you very much for your reply and explanations Lt_Letum.

I need keep my mouth shut and training more and not come here rigth for anything and take the time from people here with stupid questions like this.

Fledermaus578
01-25-2009, 09:27 AM
Wildnoob,
I thought it was a very good question.
I was awaiting to see what some of the answers were.
As for myself, I usually give it enough throttle to get me rolling... and then after I straighten out on the runway, push it all the way forward.
With jets, like the ME262 that take some time to fully rev up, I can see using the brakes till the jets come up to full power.
Again, Wildnoob, I think it was a good question and I'm sure some newer members will benefit by the answers that will be posted.

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fledermaus578:
I think it was a good question and I'm sure some newer members will benefit by the answers that will be posted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

really buddy ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I can't belive, but I would change my mind about this topic been delete if you or anyone else have a similary doubth.

in my case I have a irrational perfeccionism, that already bring many troubles to my life many times. I even take some medicine for this. but I'm not insane, despite problems like this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

so, halt the delet of this topic!

and thank you very much and sorry for the persons who think it's a idiot one and came here loosing time.

joeap
01-25-2009, 09:49 AM
Wildnoob, there are no stupid questions. Remember that. Look besides the different military forces recall that taking off from a carrier is very different from land for example. Also, kind of plane, terrain and other factors.

grifter2u
01-25-2009, 09:51 AM
are you sure the full throttle (with breaks on initially) takeoff was not an exception used for a carrier launch ?

under normal field takeoff it would be very rare to launch that way unless it is a quick scramble in an emergency i suspect. for one, on grass or ground you would never want to start your takeoff with a sudden brakes release at full power i think, because your wheels might get stuck or hit bumps, and your aircraft might nose over. a full power takeoff like that would be to risky.

on a concrete runway you might launch at full power, but it would be adding an element of risk that is not needed.

lastly, on normal airfields you would first taxi to the runway, come to a halt on the runway for clearance, then for takeoff start rolling while quickly increasing power as you control the direction of the aircraft with rudders, and once the takeoff direction is stable you max the throttle.

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 10:01 AM
thanks guys. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFYWpr5FNE8

I previosly gonna warned that this is a spoiler from the movie Tora, Tora, Tora.

if anyone watched it, at 22 seconds the chocks where removed by the carrier wing personal and only at 28 seconds the plane start to roll. so the plane stay 6 seconds stoped and just start to roll by the power that was been gradative add by the pilot. sorry for my poor English, but it was not like the chocks in IL2 where the plane can achieve full power while stoped. we can see that the engine was not on full power when the ***** where removed. it was probably iddle trottle, just the engine turned on.

today the Russian navy Su-33's use some retraclable chocks alongside with the sky jump runway. they apply full power while with chocks then they where retraclable and the plane take off.

if anyone can answer me, a similary system was the one that was used during WWII (only the chocks of course) ?

blairgowrie
01-25-2009, 10:02 AM
Wildnoob. It was an excellent question so no need to delete it.

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blairgowrie:
Wildnoob. It was an excellent question so no need to delete it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't have words, thank you very much blairgowrie!

and I hope that maybe we can learn even a little with it.

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 10:23 AM
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8018/chocks2vt2.jpg

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 10:31 AM
at least for me, that T-6 (I mean zero http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) not engaged full power for take off, and like I've say above it took 6 seconds for iniciate take off roll after the chocks where removed.

I belive that a possibility is that he was holding the plane with the wheel brakes. seems strange but it was a quickly conclusion that I manage to have.

sorry for the image above that stay too big. I try make it smaller but couldn't. really sorry, this will not happen anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

mortoma
01-25-2009, 10:52 AM
In civil aviation, you are only taught to do a short field take off when you are taking off from just that, a short field. But military training may have been different in those days. If you have a log length of runway, I don't see a reason to hold brakes until full throttle. In IL2, the only short runways are carriers.

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
In civil aviation, you are only taught to do a short field take off when you are taking off from just that, a short field. But military training may have been different in those days. If you have a log length of runway, I don't see a reason to hold brakes until full throttle. In IL2, the only short runways are carriers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same conclusion.

gonna back to my old take offs, even because I are improving then very well. but like you have sayied mortoma this can be useful for take offs in short fields and even scrambles.

I learn excellent fligth lessons today with everyone on this topic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

really thanks folks!

general_kalle
01-25-2009, 11:43 AM
if your not careful the spitfire is powerful enough to nose itself over just from the sheer power of a fully throttled Merlin monster.
you gotta hold the stick all the way back to prevent it and thus is makes a safety risk theres no need to run.. not even on carriers.

Sillius_Sodus
01-25-2009, 02:32 PM
It's a very valid question Wildnoob,

If I'm flying a tailwheel equipped aircraft and unless I'm taking off from a carrier, or the mission builder purposely made the runways short, I start rolling at around 60% power until I gain a bit of speed then advance the throttle to somewhere between 90%-95%. That way the rudder is much more effective when the tail comes up and I don't need to use so much of it to keep the plane going straight.

DuxCorvan
01-25-2009, 02:44 PM
Mmmm, I guess that doing a sudden release at full power, may make the plane do some harsh stuff, specially the 'rebel' ones with single big engines and lots of torque...

So I guess it also depends on the plane. In WW1 you rarely had the choice: most planes had no real throttle, just 'on' and 'off', and a sensitive valve you'd rather not mess much with...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
we can see that the engine was not on full power when the ***** where removed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Mmmm, I guess that doing a sudden release at full power, may make the plane do some harsh stuff, specially the 'rebel' ones with single big engines and lots of torque...

So I guess it also depends on the plane. In WW1 you rarely had the choice: most planes had no real throttle, just 'on' and 'off', and a sensitive valve you'd rather not mess much with...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
we can see that the engine was not on full power when the ***** where removed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

did I say something wrong DuxCorvan ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

I should had wrote : "at least for ME looks like the engine was not un full power when the chocks where realised".

I would like to apologize if I say some absurd.

K_Freddie
01-25-2009, 03:00 PM
As the sim does not reflect true RL engine power and torque...
As a rule I always hold the stick back (like RL), and before 'walling' the throttle I apply full opposite rudder(and ease up on the pitch)... I hope SOW will make my plane flip when I do this.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

There are some clips around with Corsairs doing carrier takeoffs with full right rudder applied.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

M_Gunz
01-25-2009, 03:02 PM
Some planes can't take full power from stand-still. P-51 is also one of those IRL but in the sim IIRC you can.

IRL with civilian planes you hold the brakes and run the engines up just testing them before flying.
Up, check instruments, down, check instruments, if anything is going to go wrong you want to find out before flying if possible.
At that point it's wind it up, let off the brakes and keep an eye on the instruments throughout, rotate at the proper speed or
in some the plane just lifts by itself so to speak.

Only worry is if the beast won't take full revs with brakes on and since we have a sim we have a refly button so try them all
on full before releasing. The tail will come up sooner if you're in a taildragger and why not anyway, you won't be adding
torque by bringing the power up when it's full blast anyway.

After you leave the ground, while you're still slow, do NOT use side-stick if the plane begins to roll. Use opposite rudder
to the roll to stay level. Left wing drops, rudder to the right in proportion to the roll.

Once you're up, gear up, flaps up, level off if you won't run into something and pick up speed then you're all set.

b2spirita
01-25-2009, 03:03 PM
@Wildnoob
You misspelled 'chocks'. What you wrote is slang for male genitalia.

Don't apologise, it was just funny.

DuxCorvan
01-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Oh no, just a funny typo (a misspelling). 'Chocks' and '*****' are not the same thing, you know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't be so shy. You can ask or say anything you want, as far as you are polite. We don't bite, lad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT: b2spirita, thanks for clearing it out. (Hehe, he wrote 'genitalia') http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Wildnoob
01-25-2009, 03:26 PM
sorry guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

thanks for your good sense, because of course I was talking about was chocks. I don't speak almost nothing of English, but at least in this case it was a error that occur during I was writing the post, a digitation error. good do know wat ***** means, as this was the kind of thing like you commite a mistake and at end learn something. on my case a digitation error lead the word I wanted use to another totally different one that I even know it.

really sorry, I gonna be more carefully while write my posts, but have to say it was very funny to know wat one word means by commited a mistake in write a similary one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

RAF_OldBuzzard
01-26-2009, 02:34 AM
Wildnoob, here is a link to a site that has a number of WWII Training Videos for various US Aircraft.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/main.html

There was at least ONE A/C in the US inventory that did indeed use "brakes on/full power" before starting the takeoff roll. That was the P-38.

squareusr
01-26-2009, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
if anyone watched it, at 22 seconds the chocks where removed by the carrier wing personal and only at 28 seconds the plane start to roll.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are supposed to be japanese carrier planes - if, in the movie, they are anything like the ones in IL-2 they will take off with engines powered down if the carrier goes just a little faster http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jokes aside, it's again a good candidate for the "different airforces, different planes, different situations" rule.

PS: absolutely no reason to delete the question!

mortoma
01-26-2009, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
IRL with civilian planes you hold the brakes and run the engines up just testing them before flying.
Up, check instruments, down, check instruments, if anything is going to go wrong you want to find out before flying if possible.
At that point it's wind it up, let off the brakes and keep an eye on the instruments throughout, rotate at the proper speed or
in some the plane just lifts by itself so to speak. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, that's not usually the way it is. You are right about doing what's called a "run up" but it's not usually done on the runway but in a parking area or other areas set aside by the airport. Usually in a place where your prop blast won't disturb anyone or anything. At least that's the way it's done in the U.S. in most cases. So connecting the run up procedure and performing a check list with being on the runway and ready to take off is wrong. In most cases, by the time you get done with your checks, you reduce back down to idle well before you are done with the check list. So no, you would not release the brakes and just take off right away after revving up again. Normally your take off is only minutes away, depending on how far you have to taxi to get to the end of the runway, but it's not immediate. I have not flown in a long time but I for sure remember all of that. I will say that if I had my own plane and my own private airstrip, I very well might do it something like that, at least be already at the end of the runway anyway. The reason being is that there would not be other air traffic waiting to land, so why not do all that at the end of the runway in the case of your own air strip. You were close though.

WTE_Galway
01-26-2009, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
IRL with civilian planes you hold the brakes and run the engines up just testing them before flying.
Up, check instruments, down, check instruments, if anything is going to go wrong you want to find out before flying if possible.
At that point it's wind it up, let off the brakes and keep an eye on the instruments throughout, rotate at the proper speed or
in some the plane just lifts by itself so to speak. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, that's not usually the way it is. You are right about doing what's called a "run up" but it's not usually done on the runway but in a parking area or other areas set aside by the airport. Usually in a place where your prop blast won't disturb anyone or anything. At least that's the way it's done in the U.S. in most cases. So connecting the run up procedure and performing a check list with being on the runway and ready to take off is wrong. In most cases, by the time you get done with your checks, you reduce back down to idle well before you are done with the check list. So no, you would not release the brakes and just take off right away after revving up again. Normally your take off is only minutes away, depending on how far you have to taxi to get to the end of the runway, but it's not immediate. I have not flown in a long time but I for sure remember all of that. I will say that if I had my own plane and my own private airstrip, I very well might do it something like that, at least be already at the end of the runway anyway. The reason being is that there would not be other air traffic waiting to land, so why not do all that at the end of the runway in the case of your own air strip. You were close though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, its close to 10 years since I ever flew in real life, but the "etiquette" at small airstrips was to do your run ups into the wind in a parking area (preferably with minimal loose gravel unless you wanted to risk some big paint chips) and certainly not on a taxiway or runway that other traffic where waiting on.

As far as the original question goes it really depends (as pointed out above) on the aircraft and airforce. For example it was standard operating procedure to use flaps in take off in a 109 to minimize the risk of undercarriage damage from excess ground speed but it was not normal to takeoff with flaps in a spitfire. No two aircraft are the same.

Wildnoob
01-26-2009, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
but it was not normal to takeoff with flaps in a spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks buddy, you solve me a doubth that I already have for long time.

I never understand why the Spitfire and the Hurricane don't have flaps position set to take off like all other planes. plese if someone can give me just a sumary, why ?

but a plane that don't have elevator trim and flaps mod for combat or take off is the I-16. the only way is to place a flaps in a rotative axis and lower then for take off manually. but depends really of the plane. a good point is take a look at real training videos like RAF_OldBuzzard recommend and pilot's handbook's. Oleg with sure make a good job and at least the most important behaviors of the planes are modeled in the sim.

well again have to thank everyone for the magnific help that I are receiving. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

blairgowrie
01-26-2009, 05:01 PM
I think it was something to do with the wing design of the Spitfire that it wasn't necessary to have graduated flaps. As long as you trim the nose up, the Spit and the Hurri will lift off easily. This becomes really important if you try to take a Seafire off a carrier. If you don't trim up, you will dig the prop in every time.

Waldo.Pepper
01-26-2009, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blairgowrie:
I think it was something to do with the wing design of the Spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think BG is on the right track.

The game is the game and reality is reality. Here is how a real world airshow pilot describes how to take off in a Merlin engined Spitfire. Aside from this being interesting, 'some' of this is applicable to the game.

"The Spitfire that I fly is a Merlin engined version. The later
Griffon engines were a completely different ball game.

Take Off: Lined up on the runway (grass preferred), stick HARD back,
half right aileron applied. If you did not have any aileron applied for
the early part of the roll the ac would be left wing low and crab to
the left.

Power is gently applied initially to ensure the tailwheel is
straight, thus the ac will set off initially in the direction you
want. This lasts for about 20 ft.

Once rolling straight, power is applied in one smooth movement to
around +6 lb Boost (RPM is set at max, which is 3000 rpm). Wartime
they used up to +18 lbs, but we conserve the engines these days, as
well as having a lighter airframe, no guns, ammo, extra fuel or
radio's, etc. The max we can use is +12, which is the certification
for the propellor. We never use it!! +6 is entirely sufficient!
The pilots notes state full right rudder trim, to counter the prop
wash. We actually leave the trim neutral and use the rudder alone.
Some other operators do it by the book. The result is the same,
except if you apply full right then you need to wind off a LOT of
trim about 30 seconds after you are airborne. And that is when you
are at your busiest with the gear retraction/power reduction/climb
angle setting, etc!

So, smoothly up to +6, keeping the ac straight down the grass using
coarse application of rudder initially, then reducing it as the speed
increases. It is very effective from the point you have +6 applied
as there is a HUGE amount of propwash over the tail.
Keeping it straight is a giggle, as you have to use references either
side of the nose until you have raised the tail. It is a bit like
driving your car down the motorway at 60 mph, from the centre of the
rear seat, with the windscreen covered with newspapers!!! Try it
sometime! It can be done...but you waggle your head from side to
side a lot!
Speed now about 20-30 mph, ease the stick forward, and at the same
time ease off the aileron until neutral. Stick goes JUST forward of
neutral and the tail will come off the ground. NO FURTHER! All you
need is it 6" off the grass, to allow the airflow to work on the
rudder. The attitude out the front is slightly nose up, NOT level.
You can see quite well to keep straight at this point.

Keep it straight (not too difficult really), and it does not swing as
violently as the armchair experts will have you believe! However, if
you fail to KEEP it straight, you will develop a ground loop, which
is like a hand brake turn. This will tip a wing onto the grass, wipe
out the gear, then prop, then radiators...

Speed builds VERY rapidly, it bounces along the grass feeling lighter
and lighter on its wheels, while at the same time rocking gently due
to the narrow track undercarriage.

At some point it will just want to fly. This is about 50-60 mph, so
you just let it go with a squeeze back on the stick. There is no
'rotate' as in airliners; you 'feel' it off the ground.

Once airborne, just let it accelerate close to the ground. Forward
force on the stick is required as the airspeed increases, and you
have no hands free for the trim wheel at this stage! The unwary will
pitch up into a steep climb - not safe!

Squeeze on the brakes for 2 secs to stop the wheels rotating, then
left hand on stick (from throttle), right hand onto the gear lever.
That is another chapter, on how to/ how not to, retract the gear!
Once gear is up, swap hands again, reduce power to +4 boost, reduce
RPM to 2250 rpm, and the incredible noise reduces to something more
manageable."

Wildnoob
01-26-2009, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blairgowrie:
I think it was something to do with the wing design of the Spitfire that it wasn't necessary to have graduated flaps. As long as you trim the nose up, the Spit and the Hurri will lift off easily. This becomes really important if you try to take a Seafire off a carrier. If you don't trim up, you will dig the prop in every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much for the informations blairgowrie!

I was now watching a real P-38 training film that I know already some time, but just now that I are trying study this I discovery the P-38's take off procedure.

here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kav71gL5TB8

but have to say that that the training video is not entery by this Youtube link. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

at 4:24 it's tell : "normally it use no flaps, later whe gonna see the conditions where flaps are used".

Wildnoob
01-26-2009, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blairgowrie:
I think it was something to do with the wing design of the Spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think BG is on the right track.

The game is the game and reality is reality. Here is how a real world airshow pilot describes how to take off in a Merlin engined Spitfire. Aside from this being interesting, 'some' of this is applicable to the game.

"The Spitfire that I fly is a Merlin engined version. The later
Griffon engines were a completely different ball game.

Take Off: Lined up on the runway (grass preferred), stick HARD back,
half right aileron applied. If you did not have any aileron applied for
the early part of the roll the ac would be left wing low and crab to
the left.

Power is gently applied initially to ensure the tailwheel is
straight, thus the ac will set off initially in the direction you
want. This lasts for about 20 ft.

Once rolling straight, power is applied in one smooth movement to
around +6 lb Boost (RPM is set at max, which is 3000 rpm). Wartime
they used up to +18 lbs, but we conserve the engines these days, as
well as having a lighter airframe, no guns, ammo, extra fuel or
radio's, etc. The max we can use is +12, which is the certification
for the propellor. We never use it!! +6 is entirely sufficient!
The pilots notes state full right rudder trim, to counter the prop
wash. We actually leave the trim neutral and use the rudder alone.
Some other operators do it by the book. The result is the same,
except if you apply full right then you need to wind off a LOT of
trim about 30 seconds after you are airborne. And that is when you
are at your busiest with the gear retraction/power reduction/climb
angle setting, etc!

So, smoothly up to +6, keeping the ac straight down the grass using
coarse application of rudder initially, then reducing it as the speed
increases. It is very effective from the point you have +6 applied
as there is a HUGE amount of propwash over the tail.
Keeping it straight is a giggle, as you have to use references either
side of the nose until you have raised the tail. It is a bit like
driving your car down the motorway at 60 mph, from the centre of the
rear seat, with the windscreen covered with newspapers!!! Try it
sometime! It can be done...but you waggle your head from side to
side a lot!
Speed now about 20-30 mph, ease the stick forward, and at the same
time ease off the aileron until neutral. Stick goes JUST forward of
neutral and the tail will come off the ground. NO FURTHER! All you
need is it 6" off the grass, to allow the airflow to work on the
rudder. The attitude out the front is slightly nose up, NOT level.
You can see quite well to keep straight at this point.

Keep it straight (not too difficult really), and it does not swing as
violently as the armchair experts will have you believe! However, if
you fail to KEEP it straight, you will develop a ground loop, which
is like a hand brake turn. This will tip a wing onto the grass, wipe
out the gear, then prop, then radiators...

Speed builds VERY rapidly, it bounces along the grass feeling lighter
and lighter on its wheels, while at the same time rocking gently due
to the narrow track undercarriage.

At some point it will just want to fly. This is about 50-60 mph, so
you just let it go with a squeeze back on the stick. There is no
'rotate' as in airliners; you 'feel' it off the ground.

Once airborne, just let it accelerate close to the ground. Forward
force on the stick is required as the airspeed increases, and you
have no hands free for the trim wheel at this stage! The unwary will
pitch up into a steep climb - not safe!

Squeeze on the brakes for 2 secs to stop the wheels rotating, then
left hand on stick (from throttle), right hand onto the gear lever.
That is another chapter, on how to/ how not to, retract the gear!
Once gear is up, swap hands again, reduce power to +4 boost, reduce
RPM to 2250 rpm, and the incredible noise reduces to something more
manageable." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

magnific explanation relate Waldo.Pepper! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

X32Wright
01-26-2009, 06:07 PM
Keep in mind that for some planes, the recommended way to take off is to hit the breaks,trim the plane and throttle up and acelerate. This is specially true for the P-38. This is even in the pilot's manual for the P-38. SO it does pay to read the actual WWII manuals for some of the planes that we fly.

mortoma
01-26-2009, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
IRL with civilian planes you hold the brakes and run the engines up just testing them before flying.
Up, check instruments, down, check instruments, if anything is going to go wrong you want to find out before flying if possible.
At that point it's wind it up, let off the brakes and keep an eye on the instruments throughout, rotate at the proper speed or
in some the plane just lifts by itself so to speak. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, that's not usually the way it is. You are right about doing what's called a "run up" but it's not usually done on the runway but in a parking area or other areas set aside by the airport. Usually in a place where your prop blast won't disturb anyone or anything. At least that's the way it's done in the U.S. in most cases. So connecting the run up procedure and performing a check list with being on the runway and ready to take off is wrong. In most cases, by the time you get done with your checks, you reduce back down to idle well before you are done with the check list. So no, you would not release the brakes and just take off right away after revving up again. Normally your take off is only minutes away, depending on how far you have to taxi to get to the end of the runway, but it's not immediate. I have not flown in a long time but I for sure remember all of that. I will say that if I had my own plane and my own private airstrip, I very well might do it something like that, at least be already at the end of the runway anyway. The reason being is that there would not be other air traffic waiting to land, so why not do all that at the end of the runway in the case of your own air strip. You were close though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, its close to 10 years since I ever flew in real life, but the "etiquette" at small airstrips was to do your run ups into the wind in a parking area (preferably with minimal loose gravel unless you wanted to risk some big paint chips) and certainly not on a taxiway or runway that other traffic where waiting on.

As far as the original question goes it really depends (as pointed out above) on the aircraft and airforce. For example it was standard operating procedure to use flaps in take off in a 109 to minimize the risk of undercarriage damage from excess ground speed but it was not normal to takeoff with flaps in a spitfire. No two aircraft are the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, I actually forgot about the pointing into the wind thing so I guess I didn't remember everything after all. And I'm actually thinking about getting current again. I better study up a bit!

M_Gunz
01-27-2009, 02:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
IRL with civilian planes you hold the brakes and run the engines up just testing them before flying.
Up, check instruments, down, check instruments, if anything is going to go wrong you want to find out before flying if possible.
At that point it's wind it up, let off the brakes and keep an eye on the instruments throughout, rotate at the proper speed or
in some the plane just lifts by itself so to speak. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, that's not usually the way it is. You are right about doing what's called a "run up" but it's not usually done on the runway but in a parking area or other areas set aside by the airport. Usually in a place where your prop blast won't disturb anyone or anything. At least that's the way it's done in the U.S. in most cases. So connecting the run up procedure and performing a check list with being on the runway and ready to take off is wrong. In most cases, by the time you get done with your checks, you reduce back down to idle well before you are done with the check list. So no, you would not release the brakes and just take off right away after revving up again. Normally your take off is only minutes away, depending on how far you have to taxi to get to the end of the runway, but it's not immediate. I have not flown in a long time but I for sure remember all of that. I will say that if I had my own plane and my own private airstrip, I very well might do it something like that, at least be already at the end of the runway anyway. The reason being is that there would not be other air traffic waiting to land, so why not do all that at the end of the runway in the case of your own air strip. You were close though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is really weird since I've actually been in the second seat many times in two planes where before taking off the engine
(in one plane, engines) was run up, down, and then up (EDIT FOR CLARITY: right there at the end of the strip) full for takeoff.
There was NO ONE behind us. (EDIT FOR CLARITY: this wasn't the whole procedure, some was done before then but not the full
power test, perhaps back among the PARKED PLANES it would not have been a good idea? I dunno, I was passenger.) Four times it
was at a small grass strip (EDIT: in Pottstown, PA) but more often at commercial airports.
And funny but yeah, the final run up was done brakes on and not brakes off.

I'm not making this up from any checklist, just relating from when part of a job was going around in a company plane, perhaps
things aren't always the same. Sorry but go knock on another door if you're looking to argue.