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Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 04:12 AM
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5101/guessthegunzb3.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guessthegunzb3.jpg)http://img89.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9982/guessmeyx5.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guessmeyx5.jpg)http://img137.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

CLick images for full size...correct answer posts a new one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 04:12 AM
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5101/guessthegunzb3.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guessthegunzb3.jpg)http://img89.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9982/guessmeyx5.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guessmeyx5.jpg)http://img137.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

CLick images for full size...correct answer posts a new one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
10-14-2008, 05:58 AM
Sturmgewher 44/MP43 (STG44) ??

general_kalle
10-14-2008, 06:14 AM
some post war mp44 reproduktion?
its not the german mp44 / sturmgewehr 44 the barrel looks slightly different. so does the wood thing you press on the shoulder.
also the gunsight is located further back on the mp44

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 06:34 AM
So close, but not correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It IS quite obscure, think close to STG44 but not quite...its from the same period latter half of ww2. Its not a reproduction, nor a copy. Its a gun design in its own right.

It did not enter full production, which is a clue...

Falcke
10-14-2008, 06:42 AM
Think it's an Stg45.

http://www.ingsoc.us/229_162.jpg

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 06:51 AM
I think thats the same gun in the picture, but its not an STG45. This gun was never called the STG44 or 45.

Another clue, think what happened when the Germans needed to develop new weapons, the Tiger tank is a good example....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Possibly its a little too obscure, you would have to really know your German WW2 weapons history to know it...

Sharpe26
10-14-2008, 07:06 AM
It doesn't happen to be an MKB '42?

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sharpe26:
It doesn't happen to be an MKB '42? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hooray we have a winner!

The precise name is the Walther MkB '42 (W). Just by chance it looks very much like the STG44, and used the same magazine. Different internally however.

It was the 'other' design in the Mp43 competition. Walther and Haenel were in the competition and both produced runs of about 3000 guns of each type to see which the troops preffered. The Haenel design was chosen.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as92-e.htm

'In 1939 HWaA (Hitler's army Weapons command) issued a contract for the development of a "Maschinenkarabiner", or machine carbine (MKb for short), chambered for the new 7.92x33 Kurz cartridge, to the company C. G. Haenel Waffen und Fahrradfabrik. In 1940 another company joined in the development of this new type of small arm; the famous German arms manufacturing company Carl Walther, known for its fine and popular pistols. Walther had already been engaged in the development of intermediate-cartridge firearms since 1936, when it produced self-loading carbines for an experimental 7 x 39 cartridge. Later, Walther developed several automatic designs in "full-size" 7.92 x 57, and one of these experimental prototypes, the 7.92 mm A-115, served as a starting point for its 7.92 mm Kurz rifle. Walther began to develop its own Maschinenkarabiner as a private venture, but in 1941 received official approval from HWaA for further development in competition with Haenel, the first MKb.42(W) rifles being delivered to the army in the second half of 1942.
In late 1942, the first small batches of both Haenel and Walther weapons, designated MKb.42(H) and MKb.42(W) respectively, were sent to the Eastern front, for trials against Soviet troops. Initial results were promising, with the Haenel rifles being generally preferred due to their better reliability. The Walther design, which showed better single-shot accuracy, was rejected as unsuitable on the grounds of its questionable annular gas piston system. No further development in this field was apparently taken by the Walther organization, which was already very busy delivering its P.38 pistols to the German army.

The MKb.42(W) is a gas-operated, magazine fed weapon. The gas system has an annular gas piston, located around the barrel, inside the stamped annular handguards. A rotating bolt of somewhat complicated design locks to the barrel via two lugs. The hammer-fired trigger unit allows single shots or fully automatic fire, and the MKb.42(W) is fed using the same 30-round magazines as its rival, the MKb.42(H). The MKb.42(W) fires from a closed bolt.'

Your turn Sharpe!

imageshack is good for a quick upload of a picture. Just be sure to rename it, otherwise the name of the gun is often visible by right clicking on the link.

Sharpe26
10-14-2008, 08:00 AM
This shouldn't be too hard. And I'm not gonna ask about the rifle. I am going to ask for the machine gun though.

http://www.marlowsauctions.co.uk/M2.gif

Uufflakke
10-14-2008, 08:39 AM
Vickers.303??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LEBillfish
10-14-2008, 08:45 AM
Gun????????

The rifle?......Remember which is for fighting and which is for fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

K2

Pyrres
10-14-2008, 09:29 AM
Vickers 0.303 machine gun, as Uufflakke said.

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 11:44 AM
Thne rifle looks like a .303 Lee Enfiled SMLE?

WW1 British arms.

Sharpe26
10-14-2008, 12:31 PM
UUflakke wins this one.

And also the SMLE is correct, but it's the Enfield that british and commonwealth troops carried during the later parts of ww2. They may still be around in places like India.

Uufflakke
10-14-2008, 02:15 PM
Okay, now it's my turn.
Guess what kind of gun this is.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/Hahanicetry.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/Nicetryagain.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/Nosucces.jpg

b2spirita
10-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Looks like one of theose boys anti tank rifles.

Sirrith
10-14-2008, 02:25 PM
Would that be a Russian PTRD 14.5mm anti-tank rifle?

Uufflakke
10-14-2008, 02:51 PM
And the winner is...Sirrith!
To be more specific: it is a PTRD-41.
It is a Soviet Red Army anti-tank rifle which wasn't effective enough against the well armoured German tanks.

If you want you can buy one just for a lousy $ 2000. Seems to be in perfect condition, always good for hunting rabbits I think.

http://www.redleafads.com/21765.html

Sirrith
10-14-2008, 03:39 PM
*bang* *rabbit disintegrates* "hm...."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/sirrith/guess-1.png

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 03:47 PM
I have absolutely no idea but it looks awesome :P

Or anyone else have one?

K_Freddie
10-14-2008, 04:27 PM
Would that be a rocket propelled thingy ?? - Those longggg telescopic sights !!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ImMoreBetter
10-14-2008, 04:29 PM
RT-20.

20mm sniper rifle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

VF-17_Jolly
10-14-2008, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
RT-20.

20mm sniper rifle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rucni Top = Hand Cannon you are not kidding http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sirrith
10-14-2008, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
RT-20.

20mm sniper rifle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yup, you're right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ImMoreBetter
10-14-2008, 04:49 PM
I've always liked the look of this one...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/rustymusket/gun.jpg

K_Freddie
10-14-2008, 04:54 PM
Is not this the Bren's younger brother.. mann I know this one.. it's just on the tip of my ...fingers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

K_Freddie
10-14-2008, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sirrith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
RT-20.
20mm sniper rifle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yup, you're right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
WOW.. who has a head that big...
A short barrel for a sniper rifle ?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Korolov1986
10-14-2008, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
I've always liked the look of this one...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/rustymusket/gun.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Czech ZB vz.26 light machine gun.

ImMoreBetter
10-14-2008, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Czech ZB vz.26 light machine gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope.

Korolov1986
10-14-2008, 05:19 PM
French MAC Mod. 1924/29 light machine gun, then.

ImMoreBetter
10-14-2008, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korolov1986:
French MAC Mod. 1924/29 light machine gun, then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct.

Xiolablu3
10-14-2008, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korolov1986:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
I've always liked the look of this one...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/rustymusket/gun.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Czech ZB vz.26 light machine gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have said the same http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Your turn Korolov...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Korolov1986
10-14-2008, 05:32 PM
Here goes...

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo176/Korolov1986/pistol.jpg

(direct link just in case img tags don't work):

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo176/Korolov1986/pistol.jpg

b2spirita
10-14-2008, 05:39 PM
Walther ppk?

F0_Dark_P
10-14-2008, 06:34 PM
A Korolov 1986 pistol? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Korolov1986
10-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Wrong, both of ya! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Deedsundone
10-14-2008, 09:26 PM
Sauer Model 38H Pistol

VW-IceFire
10-14-2008, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sirrith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:
RT-20.
20mm sniper rifle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yup, you're right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
WOW.. who has a head that big...
A short barrel for a sniper rifle ?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably for similar reasons that the M82 exists. Its a material destruction sniper rifle. Can take out an engine block or go through a concrete wall. If your target is plotting to escape via car...a M82 and one or two .50cal rounds can probably do a good job of disabling the get away vehicle for instance.

For anything else its overkill.

Pyrres
10-15-2008, 05:43 AM
Colt .025?

Pyrres
10-15-2008, 06:00 AM
I say that it is colt 25 or some small caliber beretta. It must be .22 or .25. It looks a lot like colt but the front looks all wrong.

Edit.

Damn, deedsundone must have it correct. It looks like Sauer.

Skoshi Tiger
10-15-2008, 07:32 AM
One of the little Jennings USA automatics?

Korolov1986
10-15-2008, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Deedsundone:
Sauer Model 38H Pistol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is correct.

Deedsundone
10-15-2008, 09:30 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c84/S-8/gun1.jpg

Kocur_
10-16-2008, 12:40 AM
FP-45 Liberator. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator)

Xiolablu3
10-16-2008, 06:07 AM
Thats one crazy pistol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Interesting history on the wiki page too

Deedsundone
10-16-2008, 07:07 AM
And I thought it gonna be a hard one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Kocur_
10-16-2008, 08:01 AM
Naaa... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Difficult one looks like that:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/th_zagadka28.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/?action=view&current=zagadka28.jpg)
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
10-16-2008, 08:17 AM
Can you give us a clue of its era?

Looks like some attempt at a hybrid of Rifle and MG like the Bren,FG42 or BAR.

Sharpe26
10-16-2008, 08:17 AM
The only thing I could find that looks like that is the Sig ke-7

Kocur_
10-16-2008, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Can you give us a clue of its era? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Early 1920s.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Looks like some attempt at a hybrid of Rifle and MG like the Bren,FG42 or BAR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This statement is actually not so far from true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The weapon in question is related to famous lmg, designwise was very close to much later FG 42 and in a little changed version competed against BAR in at least one competition for lmg.

Jex_TE
10-17-2008, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uufflakke:
And the winner is...Sirrith!
To be more specific: it is a PTRD-41.
It is a Soviet Red Army anti-tank rifle which wasn't effective enough against the well armoured German tanks.

If you want you can buy one just for a lousy $ 2000. Seems to be in perfect condition, always good for hunting rabbits I think.

http://www.redleafads.com/21765.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like the gun they modelled in Red Orchestra (ww2 FPS)

Pyrres
10-20-2008, 12:19 PM
Oh come on, give us a little tip. I want to know what that thing is. Have been searching for hours to know what that is at work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

canadiantrout
10-20-2008, 12:37 PM
I think he made it up in photoshop and posted it..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif



I give up.

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 12:40 PM
Told ya it's a difficult one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I'm affraid it's one of "you know or you don't" kind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It's a VERY obscure gun...
The weapon in the picture is an automatic rifle designed by Col. Isaac Lewis, known by famous WW1 lmg and related with it also by some design similarities. After addition of bipod and some minor changes it was offered by French company Societe des Armes Lewis as a lmg. Designated 'Lewis Machine Rifle Model 1924' or 'Fusil-Mitrailleur Lewis Modele 1924' it wasn't adopted anywhere.

And about Photoshop: just open your copy of "The Belgian Snake" from Collectors Grade Publications at page 526 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

canadiantrout
10-20-2008, 12:53 PM
&lt;---- goes to search for his weathered copy of "The Belgian Snake" from Collectors Grade Publications.....

brb http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Xiolablu3
10-20-2008, 01:23 PM
POst a new one Kocur, but please be aware that we dont have libraries of gun books http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 02:04 PM
Ok, there is no book yet about the rifle on top http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/th_zagadka29.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/?action=view&current=zagadka29.jpg)

VF-17_Jolly
10-20-2008, 02:18 PM
Bottoms a FAL top is a bullpup FN ?looks nicer than the SA80 L85A1 or a cleaner FN2000

Bo_Nidle
10-20-2008, 02:26 PM
http://www.shootingtips.com/NewFiles/article/Vain%20Illusions%20of%20Inventors/Gyrojet%20&%20Rocket/gyrojet-Mk2.jpg

This must rate as one of the ugliest handguns in history but its round was pretty unique. It actually featured in a "James Bond" film and I can recall the audience in the cinema laughing when its operating principle was explained...but it was true!

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 02:30 PM
A bullpup (in 7.62 mm x 51 NATO) indeed and having something common with F2000 - and that feature is mentioned in middle letter of three letters making the name - but an US company design. Also not a military weapon. It was first shown at Shot Show couple years ago and was announced to be available to buy this year I belive.

Deedsundone
10-20-2008, 02:30 PM
M.B.A 13mm Gyrojet Pistol
http://www.genitron.com/unique13.html

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
This must rate as one of the ugliest handguns in history but its round was pretty unique. It actually featured in a "James Bond" film and I can recall the audience in the cinema laughing when its operating principle was explained...but it was true! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gyrojet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDTI: a minute later http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
10-20-2008, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Ok, there is no book yet about the rifle on top http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/th_zagadka29.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/?action=view&current=zagadka29.jpg) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a lovely looking bullpup.

I dont know why all Assualt rifles arent bullpups nowadays.

The barrel is far longer for the same length of gun, and all the weight is kept back near teh shoulder so the gun can be kept far steadier in my opinion. Less weight on the forward arm when shooting from the standing position.

Anyone who has fired a rifle knows that as lot of weight on the forward arm usually means a more 'wobbly' aim. Its impossible to keep a gun dead steady when aiming, but with less weight forward, then it would be much easier to keep steady IMO.

I have never fired a bullpup, but have fired many many 'normal layout' guns, and I know that the less weight on the forward arm means an easier gun to keep steady.


For instance a light air rifle is much easier for me to keep steady when standing than a heavy rifle.

Bo_Nidle
10-20-2008, 03:26 PM
For me the biggest drawback of a Bullpup design is that you can only fire from right cover. Left cover means you have to lean out to the left exposing far more of your upper body. You cannot swap from right to left hand as the ejection port is adjacent to your face.

The balance is an issue when bringing the weapon to the the aim as is muzzle rise when firing. Invariably the weight is in the rear of a bullpup design.

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
For me the biggest drawback of a Bullpup design is that you can only fire from right cover. Left cover means you have to lean out to the left exposing far more of your upper body. You cannot swap from right to left hand as the ejection port is adjacent to your face.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a problem at all in F2000... or the rifle I asked about http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Also, although it is kinda awkward, it is possible to use regular bullpup, such as AUG, from over left corner while it ejects rightwards. All it takes in cant the rifle so cases are ejected downwards. Useful in CQB only as there is no way to use sights, but probably enough for fire suppressing (ex-Australian soldier, former very happy user of F88 told me that).

TinyTim
10-20-2008, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Ok, there is no book yet about the rifle on top http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/th_zagadka29.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/?action=view&current=zagadka29.jpg) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a lovely looking bullpup.

I dont know why all Assualt rifles arent bullpups nowadays.

The barrel is far longer for the same length of gun, and all the weight is kept back near teh shoulder so the gun can be kept far steadier in my opinion. Less weight on the forward arm when shooting from the standing position.

Anyone who has fired a rifle knows that as lot of weight on the forward arm usually means a more 'wobbly' aim. Its impossible to keep a gun dead steady when aiming, but with less weight forward, then it would be much easier to keep steady IMO.

I have never fired a bullpup, but have fired many many 'normal layout' guns, and I know that the less weight on the forward arm means an easier gun to keep steady.


For instance a light air rifle is much easier for me to keep steady when standing than a heavy rifle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends I guess. As an amateur photographer I can always make less shaked photos with heavier cameras - simply due to their bigger mass you cannot "shake" it that much. (one of the lens that I was using until recently was half a meter 500mm one, weighing some 6 or 7 kilos!). It does however exhaust your arm much more tho... So, initially when starting firing I'd say heavier barrel can serve as a vibration damper and contribute to better aim, further on it probably worsens it due to arm fatigue.

ElAurens
10-20-2008, 04:19 PM
Keltec RFB.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kurfurst__
10-20-2008, 04:54 PM
OK. Two less known guns.

First, a handgun..

http://www.waffen-wissmann.de/filmwaffen_2/ep/HTM/bilder/EP_17.jpg

Second... well, guessing the type of gun is part of the puzzle, too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
This one is special is several ways.

http://www.haborumuveszete.hu/rovatok/fegyverek/lo/kiraly/th.jpg

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 10:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Keltec RFB.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Third, after F2000 and 2A91, bullpup rifle to cancel bullpup drawbacks related with traditional ejection. And if you ask me, in RFB the matter was dealt with smarter than in F2000 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
10-20-2008, 11:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
OK. Two less known guns.

First, a handgun..

http://www.waffen-wissmann.de/filmwaffen_2/ep/HTM/bilder/EP_17.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stechkin APS, Soviet PDW of 1950s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Second... well, guessing the type of gun is part of the puzzle, too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
This one is special is several ways.

http://www.haborumuveszete.hu/rovatok/fegyverek/lo/kiraly/th.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hungarian WW2 smgs, 39.M (http://www.sunblest.net/gun/Danu39.htm) on top and basically the same gun with secondary changes visible, the 43.M below. 39.M was designed by Pal Kiraly and included his idea of delayed blowback bolt. It had two parts separated with a lever. The lever did the same what rollers did in later StG 45 (and followingguns: CETME,HK G3, MP 5 and so on) i.e. it provides gearing, speeding up rear part of bolt, while front one is being delayed in its movement back. Kiraly left Hungary before Soviets came in spring 1945 and ended in Dominicana, where his design carbine known as Cristobal (http://www.sunblest.net/gun/Cristo.htm) fed with 7,62 mm x 33 round from M1 Carbine was produced serially. Back in Europe Kiraly's bolt idea was used in French guns, first in 7,5 mm x 54 AAT 52 gpmg and then in 5,56 mm x 45 FAMAS.

PanzerAce2.0
10-21-2008, 02:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Keltec RFB.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Third, after F2000 and 2A91, bullpup rifle to cancel bullpup drawbacks related with traditional ejection. And if you ask me, in RFB the matter was dealt with smarter than in F2000 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, I wouldn't call rounds dribbling out the front a solution. Also, the one I handled at SHOT 2008 seemed kinda......wrong to me. I don't know if it was grip angle, cheek weld, or LOP, but it just didn't feel very good to hold. Same with the Bushy ACR. Great idea, terrible execution.

ElAurens
10-21-2008, 04:37 PM
Ok Gents.

What's this then.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7936/mysterydm7.jpg


Actually I rather like the FS2000, but I'm kind of an FN fan boy. Really waiting on the SCAR.

Boosher
10-21-2008, 06:34 PM
I'm probably way out in left field, but is that a Lee Metford Mk.I? It definitely looks like a later bolt-action design.

ElAurens
10-21-2008, 07:46 PM
Nope.

Sharpe26
10-21-2008, 11:09 PM
Krag-Jorgenson rifle and bayonet?

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 01:26 AM
Looks like a 1895 Lee Rifle & accessories. US Navy rifle IIRC

Skoshi Tiger
10-22-2008, 01:51 AM
Is it one of the Canadian Ross .303 rifles?

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 03:36 AM
Actually it does look a lot like a Ross now that you mention it...... but I still think it's a Lee. I think they were actually manufactured by Winchester

general_kalle
10-22-2008, 05:20 AM
Russian Mosin Nagant rifle. Main infantry weapon for the red army during world war 2

ElAurens
10-22-2008, 05:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
Looks like a 1895 Lee Rifle & accessories. US Navy rifle IIRC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ding Ding Ding!!!!

We have a winner!

6mm Lee Navy straight pull.

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 11:00 AM
I recently bought this....

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/pic6565.jpg

PanzerAce2.0
10-22-2008, 11:14 AM
That would be a Hakim. Nice guns for the time period.



Edit:

Never mind. Upon further review (ie, I actually looked at the picture), the top handguard doesn't go far enough forward, there is no muzzle device, and the front sight post is wrong.

It is actually a Ag M/42, otherwise known as a Ljungman rifle.

How much you get it for? I'm always looking for a nice 6.5 swede rifle.

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 11:36 AM
Bingo. That was quick. I paid about $500 Cdn and that included delivery, the original tool kit, bayonet and sling and 2 boxes of ammo.

Kocur_
10-22-2008, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
That would be a Hakim. Nice guns for the time period.



Edit:

Never mind. Upon further review (ie, I actually looked at the picture), the top handguard doesn't go far enough forward, there is no muzzle device, and the front sight post is wrong.

It is actually a Ag M/42, otherwise known as a Ljungman rifle.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me add that the mistake is fully excused as it does take a closer look to tell which is which, for Egitpian Hakim was actually slightly changed licensed Swedish AG m/42.

stalkervision
10-22-2008, 12:30 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Type_97_tank_machine_gun.jpg/800px-

Kocur_
10-22-2008, 01:06 PM
Although looks scary, it's just a tank machine gun dressed up for ball mounting, i.e. with telecopic sight, short buttstock and armour barrel protection for part of it sticking out of the tank. Namely it's Japanese Type 97 (http://images.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=http://mailer.fsu.edu/%7Eakirk/tanks/japan/tankMG.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mailer.fsu.edu/%7Eakirk/tanks/japan/japan-antitank.html&h=398&w=650&sz=32&hl=pl&start=5&usg=__MJvpyucXaApjH48nfvdODEFXpuc=&tbnid=4baUex422JCyaM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtank%2Bmachine%2Bgun%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3 Dpl%26sa%3DG).

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 01:26 PM
You're good Kocur http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

While we wait for Panzerace to submit his, here's another one I have always liked
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/smg.jpg

Xiolablu3
10-22-2008, 01:28 PM
Bergmann Mp28?

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Bergmann Mp28? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're on the right track....but no.

Inadaze
10-22-2008, 01:34 PM
Lanchester?

VF-17_Jolly
10-22-2008, 01:35 PM
MP-35?

stalkervision
10-22-2008, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Although looks scary, it's just a tank machine gun dressed up for ball mounting, i.e. with telecopic sight, short buttstock and armour barrel protection for part of it sticking out of the tank. Namely it's Japanese Type 97 (http://images.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=http://mailer.fsu.edu/%7Eakirk/tanks/japan/tankMG.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mailer.fsu.edu/%7Eakirk/tanks/japan/japan-antitank.html&h=398&w=650&sz=32&hl=pl&start=5&usg=__MJvpyucXaApjH48nfvdODEFXpuc=&tbnid=4baUex422JCyaM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtank%2Bmachine%2Bgun%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3 Dpl%26sa%3DG). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inadaze:
Lanchester? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got it. Interesting smg with a 50 round magazine.

"In 1940, with the Dunkirk evacuation completed, the Royal Air Force decided to adopt some form of submachine gun for airfield defense. With no time to spare for the development of a new weapon it was decided to adopt a direct copy of the German MP28, captured examples of which were at hand for examination. The period was so desperate that the British Admiralty decided to join with the RAF in adopting the new weapon, and played a key role in its design.......

The Lanchester had a heavy wooden butt and stock, a machined steel action and breech block, and a magazine housing made from a favorite naval construction material, solid brass. A few details typical for the era were added, such as a mounting on the muzzle for use of a long bladed British bayonet....the Lanchester also used furniture from the Lee-Enfield SMLE."

Inadaze
10-22-2008, 01:59 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Here's a new one -
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/Inadaze2007/6099.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/Inadaze2007/700.jpg

LW_lcarp
10-22-2008, 03:04 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/lcarp/122007_19521.jpg

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 03:21 PM
Icarp, that looks like a Finnish Mosin-Nagant M-39 - with the cleaning rod missing and the end of the barrel cut off from the photo. Yours?

WTH is that thing from Inadaze??

Kocur_
10-22-2008, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inadaze:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Here's a new one -
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/Inadaze2007/6099.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Mateba (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg186-e.htm) product.

Kocur_
10-22-2008, 03:28 PM
Long before M16 + M203 some other army had this:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/th_zagadka31.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/?action=view&current=zagadka31.jpg)

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 03:33 PM
Yeah it looks like one of the "Griffone" series from Mateba. If it is, once again Kocur - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Inadaze
10-22-2008, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
A Mateba (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg186-e.htm) product. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif The Mateba Grifone, a version of the Mateba Autorevolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Kurfurst__
10-22-2008, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
OK. Two less known guns.

First, a handgun..

http://www.waffen-wissmann.de/filmwaffen_2/ep/HTM/bilder/EP_17.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stechkin APS, Soviet PDW of 1950s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Second... well, guessing the type of gun is part of the puzzle, too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
This one is special is several ways.

http://www.haborumuveszete.hu/rovatok/fegyverek/lo/kiraly/th.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hungarian WW2 smgs, 39.M (http://www.sunblest.net/gun/Danu39.htm) on top and basically the same gun with secondary changes visible, the 43.M below. 39.M was designed by Pal Kiraly and included his idea of delayed blowback bolt. It had two parts separated with a lever. The lever did the same what rollers did in later StG 45 (and followingguns: CETME,HK G3, MP 5 and so on) i.e. it provides gearing, speeding up rear part of bolt, while front one is being delayed in its movement back. Kiraly left Hungary before Soviets came in spring 1945 and ended in Dominicana, where his design carbine known as Cristobal (http://www.sunblest.net/gun/Cristo.htm) fed with 7,62 mm x 33 round from M1 Carbine was produced serially. Back in Europe Kiraly's bolt idea was used in French guns, first in 7,5 mm x 54 AAT 52 gpmg and then in 5,56 mm x 45 FAMAS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfect answers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Its a rather special gun for its kind, as the 39. M had very long barrel (500mm), on the same scale as modern assault rifles; it also fired 9mm Mauser round, which has much longer case - it harder hitting and ballistically more than the standard 9mm Para', so the original 39 M one was actually somewhere between SMGs and ARs; its another matter that 9 mm Mauser was not used by anyone else, so there was no interchangability of ammo on the front with the German army, in fact it was not even interchangable with the pistol ammunition of the Hungarian army. Another interesting feature of it was the ability to fold the magazine - which held 40 rounds - forward, which not only made carrying the gun more pleasant, it also, at least according to some rather naive military thinking at the time in the Army, prevented enemy soldiers telling apart those who carried the ordinary rifles and those who carried the 39M SMG.

Now, the bonus question for the A++ rating. Below is pictures of two other handguns, not particularly difficult to name them of course.

The question is, however: what is the connection between the 39 M Király SMG and these guns?

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/walther_p38_44.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/beretta92fs.jpg

Kocur_
10-22-2008, 04:11 PM
The two pistols are related in an obvious way: Beretta 92 repeats Walther P 38 basic design features - both are short recoil operated guns, with swinging lock under barrel. But there is no connection - except for basic generalities -between the two and Pal Kiraly's delayed blowback bolt. So I presume he also worked on pistols or short recoil operated guns in general, which I never heard of and if that's true it would take a Hungarian to know - Lengyel, magyar két jóbarát, együtt harcol s issza borát is not enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LW_lcarp
10-22-2008, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
Icarp, that looks like a Finnish Mosin-Nagant M-39 - with the cleaning rod missing and the end of the barrel cut off from the photo. Yours?
QUOTE]

Yes it is a finnish Mosin but its an M-27 I have the cleaning rod and it is mine.

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
Icarp, that looks like a Finnish Mosin-Nagant M-39 - with the cleaning rod missing and the end of the barrel cut off from the photo. Yours?
QUOTE]

Yes it is a finnish Mosin but its an M-27 I have the cleaning rod and it is mine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice - the M-27 was my 1st choice but I discarded it for no reason other than it was a lower model # http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Question - is the rifle yours, or just the cleaning rod? Or are you just particularly possesive about your cleaning rod? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (Your wording struck me as funny)

Hey Kocur - what is the last one you posted? It's extremely familiar to me but I can't place it

LW_lcarp
10-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Yes the rifle along with the cleaning rod is mine. Barrel is stamped 1930 and it shoots like a dream and is very accurate at 200+ meters

-HH-Dubbo
10-22-2008, 05:37 PM
Whilst we wait............

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/barrels.jpg
And something that actually made it into production
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/lmg.jpg

Udidtoo
10-22-2008, 07:46 PM
The 8 barreled piece at top is a Colt Defender Mk 1.

Juries still out on second one Dub. Mostly because I hate typing " I think " and then being wrong.

Udidtoo
10-22-2008, 07:57 PM
OK, at 1st glance I thought it was a variant of the Vickers-Berthier.

At second glance I think I don't know but I bet google will help me.

Madsen Light Machine Gun M1924 ? Hard to mistake that mount

Hardly a guess after reading about SAW's for 20 minutes is it.

-HH-Dubbo
10-23-2008, 02:04 AM
Gees mate - you're damn good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Yes on both counts. That Defender shotgun though has got to be the scariest-looking home defence weapon ever, yeah? 2 questions about it - How the hell did it work? What's with the front trigger?
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/profile.jpg

Your turn.........

-HH-Dubbo
10-23-2008, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Long before M16 + M203 some other army had this:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/th_zagadka31.jpg (http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/?action=view&current=zagadka31.jpg) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it some kind of Carcano carbine? Modified with stuff glued all over it for the original series of Battlestar Galactica? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It looks like a M-91 or so but the stuff all over the fore end is throwing me

Kocur_
10-23-2008, 04:00 AM
Carcano is the right direction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The weapon in question is Moschetto di Fanteria Mod. 91/28 con Tromboncino Mod. 28 (http://www.il91.it/Sito/Fucili1891/91-28tromboncino/Dettagli28Tromb/TromboncinoM28.htm) or plainly a Carcano carbine with 38,5 mm grenade launcher attached on the right. The latter was highly unusual gun. Firstly it was both muzzle loader and breech loader. The grenade was loaded from the front, but propelling charge was loaded from rear. And the latter was unusual too, as the grenade was propelled by a rifle cartridge, but regular one - not blank. Moreover the rifle cartridge bullet did not leave the barrel with grenade - as it is today with modern rifle grenades. It was blocked and chamber was so shaped that case mouth opened under pressure around bullet and gun gas would bleed forward and push grenade out. After the shot was fired bolt was opened, case was extracted and ejected and bulled was just shaken out of gun. And that's still not everything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The grenade launcher didn't have it's own bolt. So if the soldier wanted to fire the grenade launcher he had to remove carbine bolt and put it in grenade launcher receiver.

Kurfurst__
10-23-2008, 05:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
The two pistols are related in an obvious way: Beretta 92 repeats Walther P 38 basic design features - both are short recoil operated guns, with swinging lock under barrel. But there is no connection - except for basic generalities -between the two and Pal Kiraly's delayed blowback bolt. So I presume he also worked on pistols or short recoil operated guns in general, which I never heard of and if that's true it would take a Hungarian to know - Lengyel, magyar két jóbarát, együtt harcol s issza borát is not enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good guess! Király had designed a 9mm pistol, the KD Danuvia, a double action automatic, first of its kind amongst short recoil operated guns. I found an old article in an old issue of a local quarterly magazine, which notes German interest in the design, and the the Walther 38 was based entirely on the KD Danuvia's solutions, diferring only in having a shorter barrel and a more ergonomically designed grip. Only 20 prototype examples of the KD Danuvia were built due to the 1929 recession, unfortunately. I could not find any pictures or drawings of it to compare though. Later Király also designed a semiauto rifle, which is said to be pretty good as well; it was not built, either. http://www.haditechnika.hu/Archivum/198704/870410.htm

Udidtoo
10-23-2008, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
Gees mate - you're damn good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Yes on both counts. That Defender shotgun though has got to be the scariest-looking home defence weapon ever, yeah? 2 questions about it - How the hell did it work? What's with the front trigger?
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/profile.jpg

Your turn......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It used a rotating striker mechanism which may sound more complicated than it actually was. Sort of a typical revolver set up but in reverse. Instead of the chambered rounds rotating to the hammer the hammer rotated to the chambered rounds. It was simple and fairly robust. It could also , like a revolver, be manually selected for any desired chamber. In theory this allowed Police personnel to chamber a number of different rounds in a given situation. You better hope when your out there being a commie pinko longhair protester type that Officer Friendly remembers or even cares which chambers the beanbag rounds are in.

Initially the front grip was there for pistol type "instinctive" shooting. Remember that it was primarily designed as a close quarter, heavy brush/jungle counter insurgency weapon. In your 1st picture of the Defender you can see the large amount of space between the barrels.Some variants were intended to house a 40mm grenade launcher. In later variants designed for police use a tear gas dispenser was added and fired with the front trigger.

-HH-Dubbo
10-23-2008, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
Carcano is the right direction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The weapon in question is Moschetto di Fanteria Mod. 91/28 con Tromboncino Mod. 28 (http://www.il91.it/Sito/Fucili1891/91-28tromboncino/Dettagli28Tromb/TromboncinoM28.htm) or plainly a Carcano carbine with 38,5 mm grenade launcher attached on the right. The latter was highly unusual gun. Firstly it was both muzzle loader and breech loader. The grenade was loaded from the front, but propelling charge was loaded from rear. And the latter was unusual too, as the grenade was propelled by a rifle cartridge, but regular one - not blank. Moreover the rifle cartridge bullet did not leave the barrel with grenade - as it is today with modern rifle grenades. It was blocked and chamber was so shaped that case mouth opened under pressure around bullet and gun gas would bleed forward and push grenade out. After the shot was fired bolt was opened, case was extracted and ejected and bulled was just shaken out of gun. And that's still not everything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The grenade launcher didn't have it's own bolt. So if the soldier wanted to fire the grenade launcher he had to remove carbine bolt and put it in grenade launcher receiver. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really interesting appliance - and somewhat cumbersome. Very cool. And thanks Udidtoo for the Defender explanation.

What's this?

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/scp.jpg

PanzerAce2.0
10-24-2008, 01:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
While we wait for Panzerace to submit his, here's another one I have always liked </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to do something a little different, since it's late and I'm tired. Instead of a picture of the gun, you have to ID it off the magazine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4162/2369138357720544d7c1or0.jpg

-HH-Dubbo
10-24-2008, 02:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
While we wait for Panzerace to submit his, here's another one I have always liked </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to do something a little different, since it's late and I'm tired. Instead of a picture of the gun, you have to ID it off the magazine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gees mate - Not a chance from me. Udidtoo? Kocur?

Kocur_
10-24-2008, 03:04 AM
Not a chance for me either because I'm at work and for unknown reason they blocked Imageshack so all I see is STOP sign http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PanzerAce2.0
10-24-2008, 07:34 AM
Heh. I think I'll keep doing stuff like this. Give you guys a picture of the magazine, bolt face, maybe a bolt pulled entirely apart, and see who can get it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

b2spirita
10-24-2008, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
While we wait for Panzerace to submit his, here's another one I have always liked </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to do something a little different, since it's late and I'm tired. Instead of a picture of the gun, you have to ID it off the magazine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4162/2369138357720544d7c1or0.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wild guess at a barret m82/90

Kocur_
10-24-2008, 08:14 AM
At first glance I thought: a magazine with the latch on it's right side = MAS 1949. But it's not and I'm clueless.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
Heh. I think I'll keep doing stuff like this. Give you guys a picture of the magazine, bolt face, maybe a bolt pulled entirely apart, and see who can get it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love the idea http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Sharpe26
10-24-2008, 09:34 AM
I tend to lean more towards the M24 myself.

Jaws2002
10-24-2008, 10:30 AM
Is it some Schmidt & Rubin mag? Model 1900 maybe?

PanzerAce2.0
10-24-2008, 10:42 AM
b2spirita: Nope, not a Barret magazine.

Kocur: You are correct that it is NOT a MAS 1949 mag (though something from a MAS may show up in a later questionhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Sharpe26: I'm not sure which M24 you mean, but whichever it is, it isn't correct.

Jaws2002: Close, but no cigar.


I'm liking this new game already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Enforcer572005
10-24-2008, 11:02 AM
Sheeesh....this scares me. All these weapons of death and mayhem, oh gee.

Heh heh.....yeah right. What really scares me is the fact that I can't ID alot of this stuff and firearms have always been my thing along with aircraft and cameras. That revolving shotgun thingy is a first for me. Glad I'm not a commie pinko, but I have been a protester AGAINST a commie pinko politico or two.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

I had a Carcano in mint shape when I was in High school in the 70s, but I never saw one with a grenade launcher on it...btw, if you think Lee Harvey fired 3 shots that quickly and accurately in Dallas back in 63, you never shot one of those.....things.

I've had about a million types of firearm in my hands and a few score in my own collection (in the past), but I can't ID that mag with the latch on it.

Jaws2002
10-24-2008, 11:02 AM
Swiss Karabiner K-31 in 7.5x55 magazin!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb150/Carteach02/swiss%20k31/DSCF4347.jpg http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb150/Carteach02/swiss%20k31/DSCF4351.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb150/Carteach02/swiss%20k31/DSCF4363.jpg

PanzerAce2.0
10-24-2008, 11:30 AM
And we have a winnar!

Yup, K-31 mag with a load of GP-11 in it.


I'm not going to be on this weekend at all (visiting the 'rents for my mom's bday), so when I get home from class I think I'll post up a bolt face and let you guys tear your hair out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jaws2002
10-24-2008, 11:48 AM
This should be easy:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/pwn.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/tehsuck.jpg

And a pic of my favrite modern gun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/tacticool.jpg

Enforcer572005
10-24-2008, 12:13 PM
i THINK the smg is a Beretta , maybe an M-21? I'm too lazy to get my reference book out. I know a guy that has a class3 pre 68 import one and it was an interesting weapon, though his had two triggers for select fire.

And that K-31...man I knew a cat that had one of those to. That push pull bolt is the BEST bolt action I've ever used as far as speed and smoothness. I should got that, but I just shot it, didn't change the mag. (25yrs ago).

And the modern assault rifle (note I didn't use the idiotic PC term assault weapon) is an FN product whose designation I cannot remember.

Now here's one....WHAT is this sniper rifle? No, really, WTF is it? I think it's a French product, but I can't remember. Man I must be getting old. I know it's not an SSG, but I gotta know. And I didn't take this shot.....was obtained from Patrick Null, Navy corpsman serving in Iraq. Obviously some unconventional techniques being used. Somebody takes the term 'wardog' pretty literally.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/Enforcer572005/dogspotter.jpg

PanzerAce2.0
10-24-2008, 12:30 PM
Jaws:

Looks like a Schmeisser MP-41 almost....almost.
Other than that, I'm at a loss

As for the FN, that's a SCAR-H. They are REALLY nice to play around with.

Enforcer: Looks like an Accuracy International stock to me, no idea what the action is. Could be a AWM or Rem 700

Jaws2002
10-24-2008, 12:51 PM
I'll post few more pics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/11123.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/11125.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/11124.jpg

Jaws2002
10-24-2008, 01:08 PM
And few more: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/1119.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/1118.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/1117.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/1116.jpg

-HH-Dubbo
10-24-2008, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
And few more: http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I got to say - It really looks like a MP41.
Enforcer - no idea. Doesn't the fella's hair seem a bit long for an enlisted type? The guy, not the dog. ;-)

Kocur_
10-24-2008, 02:22 PM
The smg is Romanian Orita (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/static/orita.htm) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (wish I could give proper Romanian military designation, but I have no idea how that would be http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

Jaws2002
10-24-2008, 02:32 PM
Orita model 1941 it is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Great job Kocur_.

It was the standard SMG of the Romanian armed forces during second part of World War II.
High quality reliable SMG, remained in service a decade after WW2.

ElAurens
10-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Jaws, I'm a bit of an FN fan boy myself. I'm hoping FN gets the civilian version of the SCAR-H out before too long.

The FNP series pistols are very nice indeed.
I've dumped my Glocks for them.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
10-24-2008, 04:20 PM
So what do we see here?
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/zagadka33.jpg

ElAurens
10-24-2008, 04:28 PM
Internals of an AK 47 receiver.

Kocur_
10-24-2008, 04:42 PM
Correct.
Basically http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Very small details reveal it is not AK itself but a clone of AKM in 5.56 mm x 45 NATO, namely Polish wz.96 Beryl.

ElAurens
10-24-2008, 04:52 PM
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4824/dscf1425wd9.jpg

We need the model as well as the manufacturer here...

The '46 disk is just for scale.

-HH-Dubbo
10-24-2008, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:

We need the model as well as the manufacturer here...

The '46 disk is just for scale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My initial reaction was an Adams but it's not.
I thought then maybe some sort of Dutch/Belgian Bulldog type - but not quite. Give us a hint.

Kurfurst__
10-25-2008, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4824/dscf1425wd9.jpg

We need the model as well as the manufacturer here...

The '46 disk is just for scale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't say exactly, but this one looks very much like a Webley British Bulldog...

Speaking of less well known revolvers... what is this odd beauty?

http://www.aaengraving.com/restoration/9mm_pistols/silver_l.jpg

Bremspropeller
10-25-2008, 08:02 AM
Kurfy, have you turned ghey lately? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Wanna gun?
http://world.guns.ru/assault/hk417_12-1.jpg

Kurfurst__
10-25-2008, 08:20 AM
Oh... HK's knockoff of the Mattel Toy.

As for the queer thing, I am not sure myself. Evidence presented below - my impression of a modern military firearm.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/mannlicher/STEYR-AUG-A3.jpg

http://www.nato.int/kfor/media/photos/2006/photo_week/b060223.jpg

Maybe its in my genes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

-HH-Dubbo
10-25-2008, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Speaking of less well known revolvers... what is this odd beauty?

http://www.aaengraving.com/restoration/9mm_pistols/silver_l.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1878 Mauser zigzag ~ Zick-Zack-Revolver, cal. 9mm Mauser with beveled rim, factory embellished ?

LW_lcarp
10-25-2008, 10:26 AM
Its a styer AUG

Sharpe26
10-25-2008, 11:34 AM
That wouldn't be Beaumont Adams would it, Elaurens?

ElAurens
10-25-2008, 01:16 PM
Kurfy is close actually. He has the manufacturer right.

I'll give it another day, then if no one get's it I'll divulge the name.

-HH-Dubbo
10-25-2008, 03:08 PM
Webley huh? An RIC revolver perchance? If so, it's in nice shape. What...450 calibre?

ElAurens
10-25-2008, 04:19 PM
Yes sir, a Webley Royal Irish Constabulary model.

Calibre .450 Webley

Well done.

I picked it up at a gunshow a few years back. The guy who sold it to me thought it was Russian, I got it for a song...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

-HH-Dubbo
10-25-2008, 06:01 PM
Sweet deal ElAurens - nice find.

I'm still waiting for an answer to this one
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/scp.jpg
But I'll throw this one out there too

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/GUN.jpg

Skoshi Tiger
10-25-2008, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
Sweet deal ElAurens - nice find.

I'm still waiting for an answer to this one
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/scp.jpg
But I'll throw this one out there too

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr158/dubbo2/Other%202008%20Oct/GUN.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'ld say its a Russian APS underwater assault
rifle?

I think it was developed in the 1970's after KGB agents saw the James Bond film with the lotus Esprit under water!

ElAurens
10-25-2008, 06:54 PM
Darn Skoshi, you beat me to it!

hehe.

-HH-Dubbo
10-25-2008, 07:50 PM
Correct. What about the pistol??

Skoshi Tiger
10-25-2008, 07:57 PM
Pistol, Hmmmmm! Have to think about that one. But while we're waiting how about this little beauty. I don't think it got passed prototype stage and the photo (with it's inventor to make it easy) was for a demonstration. It's WWII vintage.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/marina.grayden/mg.jpg

Perfect for home defence and those pesky varmints!

Kocur_
10-26-2008, 02:38 AM
The pistol is Colt SCAMP (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/scamp.pdf).

As for the mg I keep thinking about WW2 Australian very light and low recoil prototype .50 hmg featuring floating recoil but I just can't recall the inventor's name so I can't find any pic so I'm not sure if thats even close http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Skoshi Tiger
10-26-2008, 02:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
The pistol is Colt SCAMP (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/scamp.pdf).

As for the mg I keep thinking about WW2 Australian very light and low recoil prototype .50 hmg featuring floating recoil but I just can't recall the inventor's name so I can't find any pic so I'm not sure if thats even close http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very close indeed!!!!
It is Australian, uses standard browning .50cal ammo , Low weight, Low recoil!

Heres another picture of it, in a different configuration, the gun on the bottom is a .50cal Browning.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/marina.grayden/mg2.jpg

I've since found out that a test batch of the guns were made in both Australia and Britain in 45. The specification called for a machine gun with the same muzzle velocity as the US standard Browning gun, that was as light and same over all length as the 303 vickers K gun, with the same trunnion reaction of the .30cal Brownings. Unfortunately the war wasn't extended long enough to see late war Spitfires armed with 8x.50cal MG's

-HH-Dubbo
10-26-2008, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Very close indeed!!!!
It is Australian, uses standard browning .50cal ammo , Low weight, Low recoil!

Heres another picture of it, in a different configuration, the gun on the bottom is a .50cal Browning.

I've since found out that a test batch of the guns were made in both Australia and Britain in 45. The specification called for a machine gun with the same muzzle velocity as the US standard Browning gun, that was as light and same over all length as the 303 vickers K gun, with the same trunnion reaction of the .30cal Brownings. Unfortunately the war wasn't extended long enough to see late war Spitfires armed with 8x.50cal MG's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So wait, the inventor is showing us a shoulder-mounted .50 cal machine gun. Cool.

Skoshi Tiger
10-27-2008, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:


So wait, the inventor is showing us a shoulder-mounted .50 cal machine gun. Cool. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/marina.grayden/m3.jpg

Obviously ear protection was not in vouge in the 40's

Heres another blurry picture.

Bo_Nidle
10-27-2008, 11:03 AM
This shouldn't be too difficult from the level of knowledge I've seen on this thread:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatGun.jpg

However this may be more a "knotty one":

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/Whatgun2.jpg

Xiolablu3
10-27-2008, 12:21 PM
Top one is the Enfield EM1/EM2 from the 1950's.

http://lib.irismedia.org/sait/guns/assault/as59-e.htm

Not sure about the 2nd http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SterlingX
10-27-2008, 12:56 PM
The second bullpup is TKB-22

Kocur_
10-27-2008, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Top one is the Enfield EM1/EM2 from the 1950's.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the rifle in the picture is EM 2 or "Rifle, Automatic, No.9 Mk 1" (former was factory designation, the latter military one, assigned after the rifle was adoped - it was!), and it is not EM 1. Those rifles, although developed to the same demand and similar in appearance, were separate designs totally different internally.

Bo_Nidle
10-27-2008, 06:01 PM
Correct on both http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif .(Good Lord but that TBK is f'ugly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif)

Heres another that won't win any beauty contests:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun3.jpg

And this one is just awful http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun4.jpg

And finally this one: http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun5.jpg

Kocur_
10-28-2008, 12:51 AM
From top:

Swedish MKS (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as62-e.htm).

T25 rifle - awful indeed, not for looks actually, but the ideas behind it... Col. Rene Studler of US Army Ordnance for a reason unknown believed that a "light rifle" could replace all other individual smallarms while being fed by full power rifle cartridge. The latter was later adopted as 7.62 mm x 51 NATO. T25 was to be IT, but after it failed - and it was a design far less than perfect, to be gentle - and so did it's development T47, they switched to M1 Garand modification called T44 and started to pretend that this is what they aimed for from the beginning... T44 was adopted as M14.

And finally "the dreadliest weapon that never was" - SPIW rifle and grenade launcher by Springfield Armory, version of 1964. The SPIW was to be ultimate US rifle and M16 was adopted just as a temporary stopgap, until SPIW would be fielded... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bo_Nidle
10-28-2008, 04:58 AM
Darn! You know your stuff! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Okay...okay, let me check in my cupboards, I'll be back later...now wheres my copy of "Failed firearms of the Babylonians", that'll fox him! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SterlingX
10-28-2008, 05:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Darn! You know your stuff! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Okay...okay, let me check in my cupboards, I'll be back later...now wheres my copy of "Failed firearms of the Babylonians", that'll fox him! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be a Kalthoff repeater http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kocur_
10-28-2008, 11:54 AM
What three following items have in common and of course what are they:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/zagadka35.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/zagadka36.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/zagadka34.jpg

A hint: the last one is not a gun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-HH-Dubbo
10-29-2008, 10:07 AM
The first one was designed by a human
The second one was photographed by a human
The third one is a human - and he's holding something. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kocur_
10-29-2008, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
The first one was designed by a human
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All three were http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if those three humans were writing their CVs, all would mention birthplaces not so far from eachother but far from country, where one designed the rifle, the other - the submachine gun and last one - the mine detector (hint, hint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Bo_Nidle
10-29-2008, 10:57 AM
SMG is MCEM-2 experimental submachine gun from the UK. Still working on the top one.

b2spirita
10-29-2008, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
The first one was designed by a human
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All three were http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if those three humans were writing their CVs, all would mention birthplaces not so far from eachother but far from country, where one designed the rifle, the other - the submachine gun and last one - the mine detector (hint, hint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The last on was designed by a polish guy during ww2 whilst in britain..................... i think

Kocur_
10-29-2008, 11:04 AM
Right direction both of you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bo_Nidle
10-29-2008, 03:04 PM
Top pic is driving me nuts. It looks like it could be something to do with the EM1/2 project ?

Bottom picture is obviously a mine detector.

All 3 had Polish designers? Mine detector did, and so did the MCEM2....it's that top rifle... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Bo_Nidle
10-29-2008, 03:29 PM
AHA!!!Stefan Kenneth Janson was an assumed name of the Polish firearm designer Captain Kazimierz Januszewski who was co-designer of the EM1/2.

And the top picture is a Taden Gun another project he was involved in.!!!!!!!!

Phew!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Kocur_
10-29-2008, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Top pic is driving me nuts. It looks like it could be something to do with the EM1/2 project ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indirectly it did. Or perhaps more directly in pure technical way, as receiver suggests, looking almost identical in EM 2 and the rifle in question.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Bottom picture is obviously a mine detector.

All 3 had Polish designers? Mine detector did, and so did the MCEM2....it's that top rifle... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif All three items in pictures were designed by Poles who fled Poland in 1939, managed it to UK and worked there during and after WW2.

The rifle is EM I (Roman numeral one - according to Pattern Room tag), which was designed by Roman Korsak. It seems it was a testbed for bullpup rifle in general before "Ideal Rifle" program, which resulted in EM 2 - also designed by a Pole named Kazimierz Januszewski who changed his name in UK to Stefan Janson.

The smg indeed is MCEM-2 (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg83-e.htm) and it was design by Jerzy Podsędkowski.

And finally the mine detector was designed by Józef Kosacki (ko-sats-ki, not "kosaki") and to my best knowledge was world's first adopted non-manual, electronic landmine detecting device, as Mine detector (Polish) Mark I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_mine_detector). Polish DoD's research and development institute for military engineering - WITI short for Wojskowy Instytut Techniki InĹĽynieryjnej (http://www.witi.wroc.pl/), is named after Józef Kosacki.

Bo_Nidle
10-29-2008, 03:54 PM
Darn it! The EM-1 was next to the picture of the Taden Gun, I looked at the wrong one!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif


Okay try this one on for size!!:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun6.jpg

Kocur_
10-30-2008, 12:31 AM
Springfield Armory 1966 SPIW rifle with semiautomatic 3 shot grenade launcher, bipod and sling but without the bayonet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Note transparent 60-rds magazine, four-rows. Another example of 'dreadliest weapon that never was' - mostly because unrealistc demands, which made every SPIW contender overcomplicated.

Bo_Nidle
10-30-2008, 08:19 PM
Got to say I'm impressed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Are firearms a hobby for you or a trade or both?

Kocur_
10-31-2008, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Are firearms a hobby for you or a trade or both? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunaltely hobby only http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Well, hobby enough to make writing about guns for a Polish magazine (http://www.altair.com.pl/cz-bia-an) my secondary 'trade' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Back to guns: what this picture of Brazilian policemen has to do with Russo-Japanese war of 1904-05?
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/zagadka37.jpg

ElAurens
10-31-2008, 05:42 AM
Well, the Brazilians don't have superior optics and Royal Navy based training.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Could it be that they are finding their .223 weapons as ineffective as the Japanese found their 6.5mm arm?

Sharpe26
10-31-2008, 06:02 AM
it's probably a Brazilian Madsen, that's based on either a design used in the war you mentioned Kocur or as a result of said war the Japanese tested some weapons which ultimately turned out to be the type 27 machine gun.

Kocur_
10-31-2008, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Well, the Brazilians don't have superior optics and Royal Navy based training.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Could it be that they are finding their .223 weapons as ineffective as the Japanese found their 6.5mm arm? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I meant something more related with specific gun visible in the pic, the one with magazine on top http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sharpe26:
it's probably a Brazilian Madsen, that's based on either a design used in the war you mentioned Kocur </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! It is a Madsen and Russo-Japanese was the first conflict, where Madsen lmgs were used (by Russians, while Japanese had Hotchkiss machine guns). Actually it was the debut of light machine gun in general.

PanzerAce2.0
11-01-2008, 04:41 PM
Ok, finally back with another part of a gun to see if anyone can ID the gun just from it. (This one has several possibilities, so if you guess one of them, I'll give it to yah.)

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1693/questiontime2go3.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7466/questiontimera3.jpg

Shouldn't be *that* hard for the other gun guys.

Sharpe26
11-01-2008, 05:35 PM
It was a difficult choice to make, but your second photo makes it clear to me that this is something from a 1903 Springfield rifle.

PanzerAce2.0
11-01-2008, 07:45 PM
ohh, close, but no cigar for the man in the big hat!

ElAurens
11-01-2008, 08:41 PM
Moisin Nagant rifle bolt.

PanzerAce2.0
11-01-2008, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Moisin Nagant rifle bolt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And we have a winner.

The actual rifle is a 1943 Izhevsk 91/30

edit: Sharpe, the bolt handle on a 1903, Mauser, or most any bolt action is going to be the rear of the bolt. The biggest clue in that picture is actually that it ISN'T at the back.

ElAurens
11-02-2008, 01:09 AM
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5672/guessgq6.jpg

Well, seeing as we are now identifying components...

Guess the cartridge.

Extra points for guessing the manufacturer.

PanzerAce2.0
11-02-2008, 02:07 AM
I'm going to guess a new(ish) production .577/450 Martini-Henry.


At the very least, it's an old black powder European design, since here in the US we didn't neck the big bore stuff.

And if you want to go big bores, try IDing the full brass round on the right in this picture. I'll give you guys a hint, that's a 2000gr projectile loaded in it, and the red shell is a 12Ga http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2430DSC00694.JPG

Sharpe26
11-02-2008, 03:36 AM
I'm concurring with Panzerace on this.

and Panzerace,that's BIG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Bo_Nidle
11-02-2008, 07:46 AM
I agree, .577/450 Martini Henry round.

A guess at the round in PanzerAce's picture would be a .500 Nitro Express handloaded with a .50 BMG bullet?

How about these?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun7.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun8.jpg

VF-17_Jolly
11-02-2008, 08:30 AM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/600-img-0070-tm.jpg

.700 Nitro Express & 2 Bore Black Powder Express

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/600-img-0068-tm.jpg

.500 S&W , 45-70 .700 Nitro Express & 2 Bore Black Powder Express

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/2boremuzzle-tm.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/2boresept4.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/2boresept4.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/justin-2bore-tm.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/images-20mm022standingatangle-fp.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/bulletsizes-tm.jpg

These are stupid big and the last one is just odd

Bo_Nidle
11-02-2008, 08:42 AM
Is the one with the blue nose a round from a Hughes 30mm chain gun as used on the AH-64 Apache?

VF-17_Jolly
11-02-2008, 09:14 AM
No apparently the gun above fires it (does look too big though)

.223 Rem (left), .338 lapua, 50BMG and 20mm Vulcan

ElAurens
11-02-2008, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
I'm going to guess a new(ish) production .577/450 Martini-Henry.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct you are sir.

Not sure how "newish" it is. The headstamp is "Kynoch 577/450".

And yes, I have the rifle to fire it in.

PanzerAce2.0
11-02-2008, 12:00 PM
I just said newish because it isn't the old brass foil, but rather is drawn brass.

Bo_Nidle, sorry, but I don't think .500NE holds a candle to the round that I pictured.

Jolly: Anzio also makes suppressors for those 20mm rifles....

-HH-Dubbo
11-02-2008, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
How about these?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun7.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun8.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Winchester Liberator & Colt Defender

Bo_Nidle
11-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Correct -HH-Dubbo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm still at loss as to that round panzerAce pictured? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

berg417448
11-04-2008, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Correct -HH-Dubbo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm still at loss as to that round panzerAce pictured? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

20mm rifle:

http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm

PanzerAce2.0
11-04-2008, 11:45 PM
nope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Esel1964
11-05-2008, 02:02 AM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/Liberator1.jpg

Here's the Colt Liberator,stamped out by the GM headlamp div.,to be given to resistance movements in occupied areas.
Supposedly very painful to fire,due to it's lightweight build(firing a heavy .45 auto 230 gr. round),and all the rough edges from the stamping process.And it's said you had to be within 3-5 ft. to hit your target.
And they were only single shot to keep them cheap to make(but if you've got one now,it's worth some serious coin)!
It did have a magazine in the handle,but it was for storage only,you still operated it as a single shot.

Esel1964
11-05-2008, 02:16 AM
PanzerAce2.0- .600 Nitro Express ?

Sharpe26
11-05-2008, 03:17 AM
a round from one of those Russian anti Tank rifles? those things are something like 14.5 mm.

PanzerAce2.0
11-05-2008, 07:49 AM
Close esel, but it has far less lineage than the NEs do.

Sharpe: Nope, First clue should have been that it's a straight walled case, which rules out any remotely modern military round.

berg417448
11-05-2008, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
nope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I get when I respond to the wrong post!

Choctaw111
11-05-2008, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Is the one with the blue nose a round from a Hughes 30mm chain gun as used on the AH-64 Apache? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The chain gun in the Apache uses a round that is nearly identical in dimension to the MK108 round.
It has no neck, like many famous mobsters, hitmen and bouncers.
Here is a good photo to show their size.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1167/1351247848_145df7aa1a.jpg?v=0

Enforcer572005
11-05-2008, 11:17 AM
well I finally saw one I recognized again, that idiotic .45 liberator single shot pistol. I don't think any were actually used in anger despite the large number built. It was so stupid in concept, using .45 ammo instead of 9mm, which recoiled much less and was plentiful all over occupied Europe, unlike the .45ACP rd.

The same guy that came up with this lunacy undoubtedly is the same one that thought it was a great idea to keep arming Shermans with useless 75mm pop guns well into 44.

It would help if the guys that decide this stuff knew something about firearms and ballistics.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

PanzerAce2.0
11-05-2008, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
well I finally saw one I recognized again, that idiotic .45 liberator single shot pistol. I don't think any were actually used in anger despite the large number built. It was so stupid in concept, using .45 ammo instead of 9mm, which recoiled much less and was plentiful all over occupied Europe, unlike the .45ACP rd.

The same guy that came up with this lunacy undoubtedly is the same one that thought it was a great idea to keep arming Shermans with useless 75mm pop guns well into 44.

It would help if the guys that decide this stuff knew something about firearms and ballistics.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, given the design parameters of the Liberator, the size of it, and the manner in which it was designed to be used, .45 is a FAR better round than 9mm. Short barrel, short range, and all that means that a big, heavy round is the best bet to kill with.

As for 9mm recoiling far less, that's bull****. It recoils differently, and in a way that I personally would hate in a pistol designed like the liberator. Further, remember that 9mm in europe is loaded to higher pressures than 9mm is here in the US. Imagine putting a 9mm +p or +p+ through a liberator.

Also, you are forgetting that FMJ was the only round that was being used, in which case, the larger diameter of the .45 is a huge plus.

Finally, on the Shermans with 75mm question, the reason that they kept arming them with the 75mm was a great idea in terms of just winning the war. Sure, it wasn't as effective as say the long 75mm or the 88s that the Germans had, but the reality is that when the Sherman was *designed* it was a more than adequate round. Then, later on, instead of slowing down the production line significantly by switching to a longer gun, they decided that it was more important to kick out as many tanks as possible. Remember that we also were great at FIXING tanks, so it made sense to swamp the germans simply with to many targets, which let Shermans get close enough at the right angle to allow a kill shot.

Bo_Nidle
11-08-2008, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
Is the one with the blue nose a round from a Hughes 30mm chain gun as used on the AH-64 Apache? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The chain gun in the Apache uses a round that is nearly identical in dimension to the MK108 round.
It has no neck, like many famous mobsters, hitmen and bouncers.
Here is a good photo to show their size.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1167/1351247848_145df7aa1a.jpg?v=0 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They must come in a big tin! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Okay, the level of knowledge on here has made me go and search for the increasingly obscure so try this on for size:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/BoNidle/whatgun9.jpg

One13
11-08-2008, 07:17 AM
Is it the Polish anti-tank weapon, the Kb Ur wz 35?
Also known as the Maroszek.
It fired a 7,9x107 cartridge for a m/v of 1,200m/s.

Correction, found a picture of the Maroszek and its not that. But it is a rifle calibre anti-tank gun. I shall search harder!

Kocur_
11-08-2008, 07:46 AM
Right region of Europe but you hit a little high http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
This indeed is anti tank rifle and it did fire 7,92 mm caliber projectile (I can't remember nor find case lenght), but Czech one, designated ZK-382 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2568355&postcount=89) I belive.
A familiy of ATRs of different calibers and layouts was developed in Brno before WW2 and one of them (ZK-406 I belive) was developed further under German occupation and fielded by Waffen SS as PzB.M.SS.41. It seems that it was the very first bull-pup gun serially produced and used.

One13
11-08-2008, 07:53 AM
You are correct.
The PzB.M.SS.41 fired the German 7.9x94 cartridge. A 14.3g projectile at 1,210m/s.
In US tests it only got to 1,080m/s, but tha might be due to barrel wear.

Edit; Found that the gun in the picture was a pre-war experimental type and fired a 7,92 mm ZVV (7,92 x 145) cartrige.

Uufflakke
11-09-2008, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
Ok, finally back with another part of a gun to see if anyone can ID the gun just from it. (This one has several possibilities, so if you guess one of them, I'll give it to yah.)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7466/questiontimera3.jpg

Shouldn't be *that* hard for the other gun guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watching this part of the gun it reminds me of the rifle I have here at home, which I bought about 25 years ago on a fleamarket! I never knew what gun it was but now it seems to be a 1943 Izhevsk 91/30 with a Moisin Nagant rifle bolt am I right?
But can somebody translate the Cyrillic text on top of it. I think it has something to do with the Russian Revolution because of the 1917 date.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/IMG_7276.jpg
I know...the bolt is damaged but otherwise they were not allowed to sell it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/IMG_7281.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/IMG_7284.jpg

SterlingX
11-09-2008, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uufflakke:
But can somebody translate the Cyrillic text on top of it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Tulskii Imperatora Petra Velikago Oruzheinii Zavod 1917": Tulsk Emperor Peter the Great Arms Factory 1917
(Peter the Great founded it and it's in Tulsk, that's why it's called that)

Uufflakke
11-09-2008, 04:48 AM
"Tulskii Imperatora Petra Velikago Oruzheinii Zavod 1917": Tulsk Emperor Peter the Great Arms Factory 1917
(Peter the Great founded it and it's in Tulsk, that's why it's called that)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Spasieba! Thanx for your quick reply. With all this info I can Google around a bit to find out some more about this rifle.

Kocur_
11-09-2008, 04:49 AM
The city name is Tula and "Tulski" is adjective form (in some languages words are changed a lot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

SterlingX
11-09-2008, 04:59 AM
Ah, that's true, my mistake. I wasn't sure about this and I goggled "Tulsk" to see if I'll get any hits. There were some hits so I left it as "Tulsk". It is Tula, not "Tulsk".

Bo_Nidle
11-09-2008, 12:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifOnce again Kocur has it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Right! Back in a bit!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

I_KG100_Prien
11-09-2008, 12:44 PM
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/gerekeh/B50-217.jpg

go!

PanzerAce2.0
11-09-2008, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uufflakke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
Ok, finally back with another part of a gun to see if anyone can ID the gun just from it. (This one has several possibilities, so if you guess one of them, I'll give it to yah.)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7466/questiontimera3.jpg

Shouldn't be *that* hard for the other gun guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watching this part of the gun it reminds me of the rifle I have here at home, which I bought about 25 years ago on a fleamarket! I never knew what gun it was but now it seems to be a 1943 Izhevsk 91/30 with a Moisin Nagant rifle bolt am I right?
But can somebody translate the Cyrillic text on top of it. I think it has something to do with the Russian Revolution because of the 1917 date.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/IMG_7276.jpg
I know...the bolt is damaged but otherwise they were not allowed to sell it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/IMG_7281.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/IMG_7284.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sweet jesus. I'll say this, that DOESN'T look like a 91/30 to me, that looks like a straight up M1891, which is EXTREMELY rare, since the russians basically rearsenaled all of them to 91/30 specs.

And while usually on a Mosin I would suggest fixing the bolt into firing condition, on a M1891, I'd def leave it as is.

Are there any marks in English on the rifle? Either on the left hand side of the reciever or towards the front on the barrel? If there aren't, you've got a VERY rare rifle.

Where are you located?



Oh, and it's worth absolutely nothing and is dangerous to even store, send it to me for proper disposal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Kocur_
11-09-2008, 12:51 PM
Where does that one come from?

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z237/Kotsoor/zagadka37-1.jpg

ElAurens
11-09-2008, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
Sweet jesus. I'll say this, that DOESN'T look like a 91/30 to me, that looks like a straight up M1891, which is EXTREMELY rare, since the russians basically rearsenaled all of them to 91/30 specs.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a fireable model 91 in my safe.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Tzarist crest has been obliterated with a pin punch, but all other markings are intact.

Also own a 91/30 with a rare octagonal reciever.

Sharpe26
11-09-2008, 01:23 PM
Japan

Kocur_
11-09-2008, 01:55 PM
Correct! It's Japanese Type 62 gpmg. An unusual weapon by combining tilting bolt and front locking. In another words it is front of bolt that goes up and down, not rear of it as in all other - to my best knowledge - tilting bolt designs.

Uufflakke
11-09-2008, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:

Sweet jesus. I'll say this, that DOESN'T look like a 91/30 to me, that looks like a straight up M1891, which is EXTREMELY rare, since the russians basically rearsenaled all of them to 91/30 specs.

And while usually on a Mosin I would suggest fixing the bolt into firing condition, on a M1891, I'd def leave it as is.

Are there any marks in English on the rifle? Either on the left hand side of the reciever or towards the front on the barrel? If there aren't, you've got a VERY rare rifle.

Where are you located?

Oh, and it's worth absolutely nothing and is dangerous to even store, send it to me for proper disposal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have been searching on the internet and it is definately a M91/30 produced inbetween 1930-32 because of the hexagonal receiver and front sight.
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM9130S.htm

There are no English markings to find anywhere on the rifle. And maybe it is a very rare rifle but can't imagine it is worth that much because the bolt is inoperable and the barrel is filled with lead.

And where I am located? You can find the answer somewhere else on this page in another thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
(I don't think it is allowed in my country to have a rifle like this. When it is less innocent than a water gun the authorities will bang on my door. I guess...)

PanzerAce2.0
11-09-2008, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Uufflakke:
I have been searching on the internet and it is definately a M91/30 produced inbetween 1930-32 because of the hexagonal receiver and front sight.
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM9130S.htm

There are no English markings to find anywhere on the rifle. And maybe it is a very rare rifle but can't imagine it is worth that much because the bolt is inoperable and the barrel is filled with lead.

And where I am located? You can find the answer somewhere else on this page in another thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
(I don't think it is allowed in my country to have a rifle like this. When it is less innocent than a water gun the authorities will bang on my door. I guess...) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91R.htm

Take a look at that page http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

There are several things that give that rifle away as NOT being a 91/30.

First off, the communists would have obliterated the reference to the russian csars.

Second, the rear isn't the ramp of a 91/30, but notched like a M91.

Third, the front sight isn't the rounded post inside a ring like a 91/30, but rather appears to be a blade.

Fourth, less obvious, but the wod stock isn't the right shape up by the retaining loop in front of the rear sight. Notice the 'shelf' so to speak? On a 91/30, that is blended into the forarm, and curves more.

Uufflakke
11-09-2008, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce2.0:
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91R.htm

Take a look at that page http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

There are several things that give that rifle away as NOT being a 91/30.

First off, the communists would have obliterated the reference to the russian csars.

Second, the rear isn't the ramp of a 91/30, but notched like a M91.

Third, the front sight isn't the rounded post inside a ring like a 91/30, but rather appears to be a blade.

Fourth, less obvious, but the wod stock isn't the right shape up by the retaining loop in front of the rear sight. Notice the 'shelf' so to speak? On a 91/30, that is blended into the forarm, and curves more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I saw the wrong picture when I googled M1891 but comparing your link with mine I don't see that much of a difference to be honest.
The early 91/30 had a bladeshaped front sight too as you can see in my link.
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM9130S.htm
And actually I am not a connaisseur of rifles and guns. I really don't know wether it is a 91 or a 91/30. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
The only thing I knew it was Russian because of the Cyrillic text but since a few hours I know more about the type etcetera.
Thanx for your input anyway, I will dive deeper into it to find out what type of rifle it is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

PanzerAce2.0
11-09-2008, 03:36 PM
Huh, didn't know the early 91/30s had blades. The real kicked though is the real sight, which never appeared like that on a 91/30.

And I guess if you're in a local that bans even bolt action rifles, I can see why you wouldn't be a gun person http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Looking again, the barrel bands are also wrong for it to be a 91/30, as they never had the screw type, only either regular tension or for a few years a 'button band' whatever the heck that is.

Oh, and the handguard on a 91/30 doesn't come back up above the bands like it does on yours.

ElAurens
11-09-2008, 06:05 PM
The 91/30s are shorter as well.

Esel1964
11-10-2008, 03:41 AM
Here are a couple to mull over.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/noclues2.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/noclues.jpg

Kocur_
11-10-2008, 05:36 AM
Canadian Ross rifle (http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl24-e.htm).
Mexican (by designer and adoption), but in some ways also Swiss (by manufacturer) and German (by combat use) Mondragon self loading rifle (http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl26-e.htm).

TinyTim
11-10-2008, 06:05 AM
How about this one?

http://shrani.si/f/3a/yY/3dRWgA4c/yeahright.jpg

(Kocur, pls wait an hour before answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Skoshi Tiger
11-11-2008, 03:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
How about this one?

http://shrani.si/f/3a/yY/3dRWgA4c/yeahright.jpg

(Kocur, pls wait an hour before answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'ld say its an am120 sub machine gun.

http://splodetv.com/am180-sub-machine-gun

I wish I lived in a less oppresive community and could use one in my back yard! Perfect for pinking beer cans and doesn't disturb the neigbours too much??????

Hunting without beer is like ... well... like fishing without beer!

Esel1964
11-11-2008, 07:28 PM
Kocur-Yep,Ross Mk.II M1907 straight pull bolt action.It's the only straight pull bolt I don't have(I want a M1910),but they aren't exactly falling out of the sky.

And the Sig Mondragon,you of course got,too.

Good work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
-----------------------------------------------
TinyTim-Yugoslav MGV-176

Fires .22 LR @ 1200-1600 r.p.m.
Drum held 161 rd.
Likely a clone of the am-180,but you pictured the Yugoslav version.
http://www.world.guns.ru/smg/smg92-e.htm
------------------------------------------------

Here're a couple of more to try.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/800px-noclues31000739.jpg


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/noclues4.jpg

----------------------------------------------
Kocur-Get these without the use of a book,and come on over to the Dirty Fokker,and I'll buy a few rounds of virtual drinks,and we can talk about the various uses of cordite.LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

PanzerAce2.0
11-11-2008, 08:33 PM
Well, guess like people have given up on the round that I posted earlier. It's a 12Ga FH 'From Hell'.

Esel1964
11-11-2008, 09:14 PM
PanzerAce2.0-Sorry M8,I came to this thread late,and must've missed that one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stalkervision
11-11-2008, 09:36 PM
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/carcano38.jpg

Ba5tard5word
11-11-2008, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/carcano38.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The M91 "Carcano" right?

I'm not a big gun guy but I recently played through Silent Storm and I used that a lot.

stalkervision
11-11-2008, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/carcano38.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The M91 "Carcano" right?

I'm not a big gun guy but I recently played through Silent Storm and I used that a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, a very famous gun btw. Do you know the reason?

Esel1964
11-12-2008, 12:12 AM
Kennedy-Oswald-Dallas

Not a good performer though:

Until 1938, all M91 rifles and carbines were chambered for the rimless 6.5 x 52mm Modello 1895 cartridge, using a round-nose metal case bullet at approximately 2,000-2,400 fps muzzle velocity, depending upon barrel length. At least one small arms authority noted inconsistencies in powder types in arsenal-loaded 6.5 mm x 52 military ammunition, often with different powder types and ammunition lots intermixed within a single clip of ammunition.[1] The practice of intermixing powder types and ammunition lots in clipped rifle ammunition was generally avoided by arsenals of other nations, as it generally resulted in varying bullet velocities and excessive bullet dispersion on the target.

After reports of inadequate performance at both short and long ranges[2][3] during the campaigns in Italian North Africa (1924-1934), and Abyssinia (1934), the Italian army introduced a new short rifle in 1938, the Modello 1938, together with a new cartridge in 7.35x51mm caliber. In addition to the slightly larger caliber, Italian ordnance designers introduced a spitzer-type bullet for the new cartridge, with the tip filled with aluminum to produce an unstable (tumbling) projectile upon impact in soft tissue (a design most likely copied from the British .303 British Mk VII bullet). However, the Italian government was unable to successfully mass produce the new arms in adequate quantities before the onset of war, and in 1940, all 7.35 mm rifle and ammunition production was discontinued; many 7.35 mm Mod. 38 rifles were re-barreled to the old 6.5x52mm caliber.[4][5] Some Italian troops serving on the Russian front were armed with 7.35 mm Mod. 1938 rifles, but exchanged them in 1942 for 6.5 x 52 mm arms.[6]

Approximately 94,500 7.35 mm Modello 1938 rifles were shipped to Finland, where they were known as the Terni carbines.[7] They were primarily used by security and line-of-communications troops during the Winter War of 1939-1940, though some frontline troops were issued the weapon.[8] According to reports, the Finns detested the rifle.[9] With its non-standard 7.35 mm caliber, it was problematic to keep frontline troops supplied with ammunition, and its non-adjustable rear sight (fixed for 300 m) made it ill-suited for use in precision shooting at the varied ranges encountered by Finnish soldiers during the conflict.[10] Soldiers also complained that the ammunition demonstrated excessive bullet dispersion on the target.[11] Whenever possible, Finnish soldiers discarded the weapon in favor of rifles acquired on the battlefield,[12] including standard models of captured Soviet-made Moisin-Nagant rifles (a rifle not ordinarily noted for its performance as a combat weapon). The latter at least had the advantage of using the commonly available 7.62mm X 54R ammunition. By the outbreak of the Continuation War, Finnish Army headquarters had got the message; the remaining Mod. 1938 7.35 mm rifles were issued solely to the Finnish Navy, as well as anti-aircraft, coastal defense, and other second-line (home front) troops.[13]

Enforcer572005
11-12-2008, 12:35 AM
Those AM 180s and derivatives were cool. They looked like a cross between a Thompson and a Lewis, and I think the drum magazines held 177 rds of .22 LR. You haven't lived until you have loaded those blasted things one at a time.

Was a real blast shooting it though. Totally controllable full auto fire. Was like shooting a really loud lazer. Totally dissolved a cinder block with less than a mag worth.

Sharpe26
11-12-2008, 04:19 AM
Esel,are those a Chassepot and a M1888 Mauser respectively.

Skoshi Tiger
11-12-2008, 05:43 AM
I guess this should have been put up yesterday but, theres 2 parts.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/marina.grayden/pistol1.jpg

1) what is it?
and
2) What war did it start?

Sharpe26
11-12-2008, 06:54 AM
I take it Gavrillo Princip started world war 1 with an FN model 1900?

stalkervision
11-12-2008, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Esel1964:
Kennedy-Oswald-Dallas

Not a good performer though:

Until 1938, all M91 rifles and carbines were chambered for the rimless 6.5 x 52mm Modello 1895 cartridge, using a round-nose metal case bullet at approximately 2,000-2,400 fps muzzle velocity, depending upon barrel length. At least one small arms authority noted inconsistencies in powder types in arsenal-loaded 6.5 mm x 52 military ammunition, often with different powder types and ammunition lots intermixed within a single clip of ammunition.[1] The practice of intermixing powder types and ammunition lots in clipped rifle ammunition was generally avoided by arsenals of other nations, as it generally resulted in varying bullet velocities and excessive bullet dispersion on the target.

After reports of inadequate performance at both short and long ranges[2][3] during the campaigns in Italian North Africa (1924-1934), and Abyssinia (1934), the Italian army introduced a new short rifle in 1938, the Modello 1938, together with a new cartridge in 7.35x51mm caliber. In addition to the slightly larger caliber, Italian ordnance designers introduced a spitzer-type bullet for the new cartridge, with the tip filled with aluminum to produce an unstable (tumbling) projectile upon impact in soft tissue (a design most likely copied from the British .303 British Mk VII bullet). However, the Italian government was unable to successfully mass produce the new arms in adequate quantities before the onset of war, and in 1940, all 7.35 mm rifle and ammunition production was discontinued; many 7.35 mm Mod. 38 rifles were re-barreled to the old 6.5x52mm caliber.[4][5] Some Italian troops serving on the Russian front were armed with 7.35 mm Mod. 1938 rifles, but exchanged them in 1942 for 6.5 x 52 mm arms.[6]

Approximately 94,500 7.35 mm Modello 1938 rifles were shipped to Finland, where they were known as the Terni carbines.[7] They were primarily used by security and line-of-communications troops during the Winter War of 1939-1940, though some frontline troops were issued the weapon.[8] According to reports, the Finns detested the rifle.[9] With its non-standard 7.35 mm caliber, it was problematic to keep frontline troops supplied with ammunition, and its non-adjustable rear sight (fixed for 300 m) made it ill-suited for use in precision shooting at the varied ranges encountered by Finnish soldiers during the conflict.[10] Soldiers also complained that the ammunition demonstrated excessive bullet dispersion on the target.[11] Whenever possible, Finnish soldiers discarded the weapon in favor of rifles acquired on the battlefield,[12] including standard models of captured Soviet-made Moisin-Nagant rifles (a rifle not ordinarily noted for its performance as a combat weapon). The latter at least had the advantage of using the commonly available 7.62mm X 54R ammunition. By the outbreak of the Continuation War, Finnish Army headquarters had got the message; the remaining Mod. 1938 7.35 mm rifles were issued solely to the Finnish Navy, as well as anti-aircraft, coastal defense, and other second-line (home front) troops.[13] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bingo... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kocur_
11-12-2008, 07:59 AM
Since I had no idea what was that smg and two bolt action black power rifles, let me offer additional reading on Carcano ammunition: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html (http://personal.stevens.edu/%7Egliberat/carcano/emary.html)
I think that Italian ammo was best in Europe conceptually, I mean it was closest to intermediate cartridge idea. The problem was low lethality of obsolete, round nose 6,5 mm projectiles (very stable in dense medium, read: in human body), hence pretty lousy general-public opinion on Carcanos. Problems with ammunition quality, like those Finns had, didn't make things any better...

TinyTim
11-12-2008, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
How about this one?

http://shrani.si/f/3a/yY/3dRWgA4c/yeahright.jpg

(Kocur, pls wait an hour before answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'ld say its an am120 sub machine gun.

http://splodetv.com/am180-sub-machine-gun

I wish I lived in a less oppresive community and could use one in my back yard! Perfect for pinking beer cans and doesn't disturb the neigbours too much??????

Hunting without beer is like ... well... like fishing without beer! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, close, close.

It's actually Gorenje MGV-176, very similar in appearance to American-180.

Skoshi Tiger
11-12-2008, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
I guess this should have been put up yesterday but, theres 2 parts.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/marina.grayden/pistol1.jpg

1) what is it?
and
2) What war did it start? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on!

Esel1964
11-13-2008, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
How about this one?

http://shrani.si/f/3a/yY/3dRWgA4c/yeahright.jpg

(Kocur, pls wait an hour before answering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'ld say its an am120 sub machine gun.

http://splodetv.com/am180-sub-machine-gun

I wish I lived in a less oppresive community and could use one in my back yard! Perfect for pinking beer cans and doesn't disturb the neigbours too much??????

Hunting without beer is like ... well... like fishing without beer! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, close, close.

It's actually Gorenje MGV-176, very similar in appearance to American-180. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey,I said that 13-14 posts earlier!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif