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jugent
03-14-2005, 05:43 AM
Carriers are hard to sink in general and USN-carriers in particular.
Has anyone managed to sink an American carrier on hyperlobby?
The flak is deadly, the divebombers are very vulnerable, and the carriers seems to take a lot of punishment. I tested Lexington in a homebrew mission and divebombed it with a Stuka and the biggest 1800kg? bomb. But it stayed afloat. Unfortunatly my AI-buddies refused to attack the carrier.
The russian battleships go down when hit by such a bomb.
I know the carriers where hard to sink but where they so hard to sink?
In the battle of Coral see Lexington was hit by two bombs and two torpedo hits and was was burning out of control.
The IJN carrier Shoho was sunk by USN who lost only three planes.
USN disposed 136 a/c of all kinds.
Perhaps the flak is to accurate?
BTW it would be nice to have the TBF/TBM, and the Kate as flyable a/c to make CV launched torpedo attacks possible.
Fly with care

Skarphol
03-14-2005, 05:57 AM
Hi!

Me and a team-mate was flying on HL on a New Guinea map with som US Carriers laying of shore. We were using He-111 as substitutes for japanese torpedobombers, and we hit the ship with 16 torpedoes before it sunk. It is a hard type of ship to sink, yes.
Wether this is realistic, I really don't know.

Skarphol

JG53Frankyboy
03-14-2005, 06:02 AM
you need 2000kg/4000lb to sink a big carrier - no difference in nation - even the UK carriers dont need more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
also 6 US/Japanaese torpedos are enough.
ore teo Tiny Tims http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

1000kg/2000lb for a escort one is enough.
2 torpedos here

thats a proplem for japanese planes because of ther small bombload!

so, i think not the carriers are to tough, the japanese havent enough bombweight to kill one fast enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

well, you need as minimum 14 torpedos with a Heinkel, as i said, minimum !
skip bomb it with 2xSC1000 , carrier is going down after one attack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tigertalon
03-14-2005, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
Carriers are hard to sink in general and USN-carriers in particular.
Has anyone managed to sink an American carrier on hyperlobby?
The flak is deadly, the divebombers are very vulnerable, and the carriers seems to take a lot of punishment. I tested Lexington in a homebrew mission and divebombed it with a Stuka and the biggest 1800kg? bomb. But it stayed afloat. Unfortunatly my AI-buddies refused to attack the carrier.
The russian battleships go down when hit by such a bomb.
I know the carriers where hard to sink but where they so hard to sink?
In the battle of Coral see Lexington was hit by two bombs and two torpedo hits and was was burning out of control.
The IJN carrier Shoho was sunk by USN who lost only three planes.
USN disposed 136 a/c of all kinds.
Perhaps the flak is to accurate?
BTW it would be nice to have the TBF/TBM, and the Kate as flyable a/c to make CV launched torpedo attacks possible.
Fly with care <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carriers are indeed too tough. Last time I took one out using He111, but armed with 2xSC2000, it is enough (it was hit only by me and was not damaged from before). But yes, it needs a lot of D3A 250 and 60kg bombs to go down... Bombs are in general much more effective than torpedoes IMO. When going against ordinary ships, I load up 4xSD250 or SD500 bombs. With two pairs of bombs you can take out two ships.

JG53Frankyboy
03-14-2005, 06:05 AM
a freighter/tanker needs 250kg , a DD 500kg

Spartan_GR
03-14-2005, 06:19 AM
I have sunk freighters with rockets ( of the AP type ). Most of the time two rockets are enough. I dont know how realistic is this ... two rockets sinking a ship ( especially a freighter ).

MajorBloodnok
03-14-2005, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spartan_GR:
I have sunk freighters with rockets ( of the AP type ). Most of the time two rockets are enough. I dont know how realistic is this ... two rockets sinking a ship ( especially a freighter ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Depends on the cargo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Spartan_GR
03-14-2005, 06:53 AM
yeah i suppose that this is true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jugent
03-19-2005, 04:13 AM
I made a test and attacked "generic US CV" with a stuka equipped with the 1800SC bomb at 0.5 sec delay. It took five sorties to kill the carrier. I hit every time, checked with <stat> command.
Isnt 9000kg TNT a little to much for a CV?
The decks below "landingstrip" is equipped with lots of flammable materials.
In my oppinion is the CV overmodelled because it can take to much damage and its flaks is to effective. I got shoot down by on at the distance of 10 km. I flew at 300 m with a Zero. The nearest carrier was one grid away (10km) suddenly my engine cought fire, and I started to look for enemy fighters. The message was xxx was shoot down by a navy gunner. Isnt that to accurate?

T_O_A_D
03-19-2005, 11:18 AM
I find it quite easy to sink one. One pass one kill. Use your heads and you will see it too. I could show you a track but that would make it to easy for you. Enjoy the game and think about it.

VF-19
03-19-2005, 11:43 AM
Some of the smaller ships can be killed with 20mm cannons. However, it'll put a serious dent on your ammo supply. Not to mention your health too, if the ship is actively trying to make you look like swiss cheese.

But I find that carriers are supposed to be tough. It's a big ship, and probably compartmentalized. What I find really annoying is the massive amounts of anti-aircraft fire that comes off of it. They're so unappreciative!

p1ngu666
03-19-2005, 12:04 PM
think american carriers are tougher than japanease ones, should be similer? (wooden decks and all..)

ull need 4 rockets to down the ships, oil and whatever merchant thingy

rockets where used by costal command, AP rounds would cut through the sides of the ships, bounce around inside and come out again. rocket motor would ignite stuff inside

ive seen footage where straffing has hit something and its just gone BANG!! in a BIG way

Tooz_69GIAP
03-19-2005, 12:43 PM
take a He-111 with 2xSC2000 bombs, set dealy to 4 seconds, and skip bomb any carrier in the game. It will go down.

Similarly, take a late corsair and load up with 4,000lbs of bombs, and skip bomb any carrier, and you will sink it, guaranteed.

Maj_Death
03-19-2005, 02:07 PM
You know there is a reason they would send 20+ bombers to sink a carrier back in WW2. Honestly I think the carriers are about right. A few well placed big bombs will send them to the bottom or atleast cripple them.

jugent
03-19-2005, 04:05 PM
Well toad you can talk the talk, lets se if you can walk the walk.
Post the trackfile so I can see talk talk is talk and walk is walk

SithSpeeder
03-19-2005, 04:40 PM
Tooz, et al--

I thought skip bombing meant you MUST set the delay to 0.0. Otherwise, they hit the side, and sink. So I am confused by your post.

In confusium perpetua...

* _54th_Speeder *

p1ngu666
03-19-2005, 06:12 PM
u can use delay on skip bombing now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LW_lcarp
03-19-2005, 11:07 PM
Take a Corsair with the 2000lbs and 2 1000lbs bombs. get some ALT. dive on target level out skip bombs into carrier. Then watch carrier go blub blub blub as it sinks its almost to easy

ClnlSandersLite
03-20-2005, 11:30 AM
In a lightning J, take the 2X1000lbs + Rockets + 100% fuel and dive vertical into their deck. Does the job http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Cess-SGTRoc
03-20-2005, 12:48 PM
The american Carriers had 4" of cold rold Steel overlayed with Teak for the Flight Deck,It would stop a 500lb bomb and cause it to bounce over the side. If it did exsplode it might clean the deck, but they could still use it.
I have found that if I attack the carrier from the side , or dive down and then level out into a glide bomb attack and hit the side of the ship it will go down quicker.
At least it did for me. Give this a try.

jugent
03-20-2005, 02:44 PM
Cess
I compare the effect with bombing the WWI battleship Marat. It has more than 4 inch of cold rold steel on its deck.
A battleship, although a WWI should take more punishment than a carrier build mid 20:ths, dont you think so?

T_O_A_D
03-20-2005, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
Well toad you can talk the talk, lets se if you can walk the walk.
Post the trackfile so I can see talk talk is talk and walk is walk <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hardly need to now some of the others decided to give it up to easily .

I prefure the corsair method the best. But I enjoy High altitude with the B-25 and bombsite Only problem it taks two runs to do it with the B-25.

JoachimvMayern
03-20-2005, 08:48 PM
Too bad the Pe8 isn't flyable. Take one of those up with a 5000kg bomb and that'll take care of any carrier.

VF-19
03-21-2005, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoachimvMayern:
Too bad the Pe8 isn't flyable. Take one of those up with a 5000kg bomb and that'll take care of any carrier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just about everybody else that's too close (at least 1 km from the blast, perhaps more), including you...

Although, I'm wondering if the blast is powerful enough to destroy other ships if they're packed in close enough...

Maj_Death
03-21-2005, 06:05 AM
^try the mistel flying bomb

I'm not sure if that would actually do anything other than make a pretty explosion though, I've never tried hitting a ship with one.

gates123
03-21-2005, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
Well toad you can talk the talk, lets se if you can walk the walk.
Post the trackfile so I can see talk talk is talk and walk is walk <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Toad walks the walk be sure I've seen it. In fact I've seen a number of experten jabo pilots kill a carrier in one pass. Sinking it is one thing but getting out with a swarm of enemy planes above it is another.

jugent
03-21-2005, 12:15 PM
Im still waiting for the trackfile, to convince me about the "corsair method". Otherwise I consider this a bragging.

gates123
03-21-2005, 12:33 PM
I would suggest instead of waiting for Toads "track file" you take a little of YOUR time and skip bomb the carrier with a 4000lbs Corsair bomb load. The "hints" are all there. Then if you figure it out you can come back and brag to us all on how you killed the carrier in one pass. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jugent
03-22-2005, 06:27 AM
I have tried with the stuka 1800kg SC bomb and if the german version of TNT is almost as good as the american version, it would be comparative, dont you think?

Ive hit the generic USN carrier with four bombs set to 2 sec delay and it still was afloat. The fifth bomb sunk it.
Ive divebombed it from 4000m and aimed to the center or the carrier, dropped it at 1000m.
At first I set the fuse to 0 sec but the blast blew my A/C of the sky.

I used the online-gaming that I could use the statistic to see if I hit.

Because of this test, four hits means 7200 kg of HE into a ship would sinkt it.

Also when someone states that he killed a undamaged CV with one 4000lbs (1814.37kg) bombload, I am most surprised.
If not according to the tradition of this game, the effect of what should be equal weapons are reduced to the disadvantage of the german.

JG53Frankyboy
03-22-2005, 07:02 AM
im doing a lot of damage tersts because of VOW mission building - and yes, sometimes the results are funny - last example:
static generic US carrier.

i needed 5 hits Ju87(ACE setting) with SC500 loaded to sink the vessel.
next time only one Ju88 with 2xSC1000 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TheGozr
03-22-2005, 02:02 PM
I certified that Toad and gate can sink a carrier in one pass any time of the day under any weather.

It became a routine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jugent
03-23-2005, 11:15 AM
It seems as if some bombs are more than some other bombs.

I sunk a carrier with four 500kg delay 2 sec bombs from a He111 dropped from 4000m.

I have tried to bomb with the Ki-61 equipped with two 500kg bombs. I made two succesfull attacks out of four, saved the track for evaluation. At one of them there where a F4F on the carrier but it could take of anyway.
Lets state that the damagemodel for a US-carrier is not completed.
This game is like Orwells animalfarm, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

JG53Frankyboy
03-23-2005, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
It seems as if some bombs are more than some other bombs.

I sunk a carrier with four 500kg delay 2 sec bombs from a He111 dropped from 4000m.

I have tried to bomb with the Ki-61 equipped with two 500kg bombs. I made two succesfull attacks out of four, saved the track for evaluation. At one of them there where a F4F on the carrier but it could take of anyway.
Lets state that the damagemodel for a US-carrier is not completed.
This game is like Orwells animalfarm, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tonies have 250kg bombs , so you need 4 succesfull attacks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - as minimum

Cragger
03-23-2005, 12:00 PM
I think some of you need to look up how much of a beating the flattops of WW2 really took before being knocked out of action. The only reason why 3 of the Japanese flattops where knocked out in one attack at Midway was because the SBDs hit them right at the best moment. Planes on deck refueling and rearming, lots of explosive and or flammable material unprotected and with a large contengent of their crew exposed on deck doing recovery and prep.

Its all down to damage control, these ships had thousands of men that where determined not to let their 'home' sink. The Yorktown was hit twice at Midway and put back into action only to get hit again and finally knocked out. The Franklin was hit by a kamakazi at the same moment the Japanese flattops had been caught at Midway. The secondaries from Tiny Tims and Hvars, avgas and ordanance killed 2/3 rds of her crew. Yet that last third faught the fires, got them under control and brought the ship all the way back to the East US Coast for extensive repairs.

Just like inthe air is the men not the machine. Damage control plays the biggest survivability factor in Naval surface warefare.

Enforcer572005
03-24-2005, 12:28 AM
ditto on the Midway info...I think the carriers should NORMALLY take several bomb hits and survive, depending on pure chance and randomness (is that a word?).But 16 fish is a bit much....the super battleships Musashi and Yamato each took between 16 to 21 torpedos and alot of bombs to sink....a less heavily armored carrier should take less.

However, the Essex class was heavily armored around the sides with double hulls that absorbed torpedo damage pretty good, but even those ships should be in danger after 4 or 5 hits. Keep in mind that not one Essex class was lost despite many kamikaze, bomb, and torpedo hits, including Franklin, though not THAT many torpedos.

I THINK the Essex class had wood primarily in the flight decks without adequate armor protection there....they were much easier to temporarily knock out than the British carriers with their armored flight decks (and speed limitations as a result). Youll note that all the carriers built after the war have armored decks, no wood.

the Saratoga class was not nearly as well designed, but even then, Lexington was lost because of lousy damage control....the fires were all under control untill that factor came into play.

Yorktown survived the air attacks, bombs and at least 2 torpedos at Midway, because of good damage control. It was a submarine that sent her down....I think it scored 2 torp hits on the already damaged and listing ship.

In CFS-2, I had to redo the damage profile on all the ships for a cmpaign I designed...couldnt have the Hei sunk off savo Island with one torpedo.

Enforcer572005
03-24-2005, 12:33 AM
oh yeah, I forgot....I think they have the Marat sinkable after one bomb so you can re-enact Rudel sinking it with one bomb from his Stuka....of course, he did put it down the stack I think.

jugent
03-24-2005, 05:52 AM
Yes that is correct about KI I have tried out the best way to attack carriers with two 250kg bombs.

Dive down on them from front or astearn. Get the speed above 600 km/h set the fuse to at least 2 seconds and drop while you pass the front of the carrier.

Last time I tried I made 4 succesfull drops, whit both bombs, out of 5 attempts. Ive survived long enough to RTB once.

I save the trackfile and checked with the >STAT command to check my hits. The carrier smoked as if the cook had forgot the pancaces in the pan, thats all. A F4F stood on the deck during one attack but it survived.


In a D3-A1 I hit the CV 1 time of 5 with lighter bombs.

JuniorUK
03-24-2005, 06:41 AM
An American carrier was sank (online) by two flights of three Ki-84 with two bombs each. It makes 12 bombs in total. The skip bombing technique was used.