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horseback
01-20-2006, 01:18 PM
Members of the community, there has been much debate lately about the handling of various aircraft in the Il-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles series. Some members say that they have no problems with the handling of the Mustang (the most cited victim of the new FMs) and other major aircraft types, and others have tried every 'fix' posted, every variation on their stick sensitivities, and even new controllers without a positive result.

I propose that we all try a series of test flights and post the results for each flight/aircraft. Start the post with your computer's specs: Processor, RAM, Motherboard, Operating System (Windows 98, ME, XP/Home/Pro, Pro 64), Video card, sound card (if any), and controllers (with their specialized software), including things like TIR. Add your in-game pitch, roll, and yaw settings, sensitivity and filtering levels. Then list the aircraft you are testing.

The Flight Plan: A QMB on the Smolensk map, starting at 500m. Head east towards Smolensk along the river at no more than 40m, flying under every bridge as I come to it at the aircraft's approximate cruise speed. Once you reach the city, head north(left) up the first tributary, following the river's course and flying under the first three bridges, then pull up and over to the eastern tributary, and follow it south, under the three bridges before you reach the main river again.

Make a sweeping turn to the northwest, and you should spot a train station on the northwest side of the first tributary you took. It has two pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Fly under them (approximate heading is 315 degrees), pull up & climb to around 800m, roll back down and fly back through the pedestrian bridges, and land (if you haven't crashed at some point).

This has been my 'familiarization flight' exercise whenever I changed aircraft in a campaign since the original IL-2 Sturmovik days. I was able to complete the flight in almost every fighter except the twin engine types (too big to fit under the pedestrian bridges) within three tries back in the 3.03m and the last patch version of AEP.

Start with the I-16, then try the Bf 109F, the P-40E, the La-5F, the P-39, the YaK-1b, the Spitfire Mk Vb(CW), the FW 190, the F-4U, the F6F, and then the P-51B Mustang. Set the fuel to say, 75%.

Take notes for each, and post them (individually). List such things as whether the Turn and Bank (needle & ball) Indicator's accuracy matches the vector indicator in Wonder Woman view, how smoothly the nose tracks, how effective the trim is, how the aircraft feels to you. Make sure to pick out a landmark to shoot at, and record the effect of firing your guns on stability as well.

Each flight will take about 20 minutes (assuming you don't crash).

Post for one flight at a time, comparing to previous flights if you like. If the people experiencing problems all have similar rigs, that will be helpful. Maybe it is all due to a common error in settings or it's a controller issue of some sort.

Maybe there's a real problem that isn't evident without a rigorous test of handling and comparison to different aircraft than the ones we usually fly.

Let's find out.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 01:18 PM
Members of the community, there has been much debate lately about the handling of various aircraft in the Il-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles series. Some members say that they have no problems with the handling of the Mustang (the most cited victim of the new FMs) and other major aircraft types, and others have tried every 'fix' posted, every variation on their stick sensitivities, and even new controllers without a positive result.

I propose that we all try a series of test flights and post the results for each flight/aircraft. Start the post with your computer's specs: Processor, RAM, Motherboard, Operating System (Windows 98, ME, XP/Home/Pro, Pro 64), Video card, sound card (if any), and controllers (with their specialized software), including things like TIR. Add your in-game pitch, roll, and yaw settings, sensitivity and filtering levels. Then list the aircraft you are testing.

The Flight Plan: A QMB on the Smolensk map, starting at 500m. Head east towards Smolensk along the river at no more than 40m, flying under every bridge as I come to it at the aircraft's approximate cruise speed. Once you reach the city, head north(left) up the first tributary, following the river's course and flying under the first three bridges, then pull up and over to the eastern tributary, and follow it south, under the three bridges before you reach the main river again.

Make a sweeping turn to the northwest, and you should spot a train station on the northwest side of the first tributary you took. It has two pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Fly under them (approximate heading is 315 degrees), pull up & climb to around 800m, roll back down and fly back through the pedestrian bridges, and land (if you haven't crashed at some point).

This has been my 'familiarization flight' exercise whenever I changed aircraft in a campaign since the original IL-2 Sturmovik days. I was able to complete the flight in almost every fighter except the twin engine types (too big to fit under the pedestrian bridges) within three tries back in the 3.03m and the last patch version of AEP.

Start with the I-16, then try the Bf 109F, the P-40E, the La-5F, the P-39, the YaK-1b, the Spitfire Mk Vb(CW), the FW 190, the F-4U, the F6F, and then the P-51B Mustang. Set the fuel to say, 75%.

Take notes for each, and post them (individually). List such things as whether the Turn and Bank (needle & ball) Indicator's accuracy matches the vector indicator in Wonder Woman view, how smoothly the nose tracks, how effective the trim is, how the aircraft feels to you. Make sure to pick out a landmark to shoot at, and record the effect of firing your guns on stability as well.

Each flight will take about 20 minutes (assuming you don't crash).

Post for one flight at a time, comparing to previous flights if you like. If the people experiencing problems all have similar rigs, that will be helpful. Maybe it is all due to a common error in settings or it's a controller issue of some sort.

Maybe there's a real problem that isn't evident without a rigorous test of handling and comparison to different aircraft than the ones we usually fly.

Let's find out.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 01:36 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

I-16 Type 24:

LOTS of control input needed with these settings. Needle and ball not visible most of the time. Generally solid, but very slow, cruise speed approximately 310 kph. Noticeable yaw when firing wing guns. No nose bounce when guns fired, just left-right oscillation. No trim inputs, flying at cruise (70% throttle) allows generally level flight without a lot of corrections.

Honest little airplane, but not very fast. Fairly easy to complete the course.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 02:12 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

Bf 109F-4

Smooth and fast. Cruise @ 410kph, no rudder or aileron inputs required at cruise.

Turn and Bank Indicator is practically spot on compared to the vector indicator in the Wonder Woman view (note to purists: record your flight, and then use WW view while watching the track in order to avoid sinning).

Elevator trim is predictable and reliable.

Some rudder input into a roll or bank was needed. Fairly easy to maintain level flight even in the turn.

No pitch or yaw oscillation when firing cannon or MGs.

Easy, easy, easy to fly. Tracks like it's on rails.

Disclaimer: I fly a LOT of Bf 109 campaigns, so I'm very used to it, although these are very new sensitivities, much lower than I have used previously.

cheers

horseback

danjama
01-20-2006, 02:43 PM
Maybe if we could get Oleg to endorse something like this, and promise to change any innaccuricies in the FM if we found errors, it would act as an incentive to do it, caus this testing is alot of time and work!

horseback
01-20-2006, 06:57 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

P-40E

Very smooth, almost in Bf 109 class. Goes where you point it, doesn't fight you.

Cruised at around 375-390kph for most of the course.

Turn and Bank indicator is almost absolutely true.

Requires trim adjustments in rudder, elevator and ailerons, but trims easily and predictably (Note: My trim assignments are joystick buttons rather than axes-your mileage may vary).

A bit nose heavy, climbs slowly, but turns on a dime.

Slight yaw oscillation when the MGs are fired.

Comments? Contradictions? Anybody?

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 07:09 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

La-5F

Very similar to P-40E, but smaller, faster feeling. Actually about the same in speed. Goes everywhere but down in a hurry.

Needed a lot of trim and rudder input at all speeds, but again, trimmed consistantly and predictably. Like 109, putting a little rudder into banks made turns sharper and level.

Turn and Bank indicator 'ball' a bit sloppy, slow to move back to center.

No oscillations when firing cannon; similar to 109 in this regard.

'Jumps' into a climb, needed to be conscious of nose up tendency while approaching bridges to avoid overcompensating.

Fun to fly; a real hot rod. Must have been sudden death at low alts in RL if FM is at all close.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 07:20 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

P-400/P-39D

Similar to the P-40, but a bit sloppier, required more control input, less trim conscious.

Cruised a bit faster, 400-415kph, smoother easier climb. Burns off a bit of E in turns and climbs, but regains it easily.

Turn and bank not always accurate; seemed a couple of steps behind the curve during sudden maneuvers, but eventually would catch up.

Slight yaw waggle when firing wing guns.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 07:34 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

YaK-1b

Unlike previous aircraft tested (may be due to that engine sound; more like washing machine than aircraft engine). Fast and responsive, but felt distant.

Turn and Bank indicator a bit sloppy compared to WW view vector.

Needed a fair amount of trim; more than P-40, less than La-5F. Rudder and elevator trim a bit sloppy, tended to overshoot in both axes.

No oscillation when firing guns.

Fast, but slippery. Climbed well but felt heavy. Needed your full attention at low levels & high speeds. Very conscious of how low in cockpit my point of view was, needed to keep a close eye on altitude indicator.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-20-2006, 07:49 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

Spitfire MK Vb (CW)

Woot! Like a faster La-5F, only less trim, which was elevator and rudder only, quite accurate and predictable.

Tracked at least as well as the P-40, not quite in the same class as the Bf-109 (but I've had a LOT less time in type). There was a very slight tendency to roll left, but I soon adjusted and forgot about it.

Turn and Slip indicator took some getting used to, but it was spot on, and could be relied upon to guide rudder input into smooth tracking turns. At least as accurate as the 109's.

Very smooth, accomodating aircraft. Downright lovable, until you fire the guns. Pronounced yaw (like sawing wood) and slight nose bobbing with cannon or even just MGs. Hitting your target after the first rounds will be tough.

cheers

horseback

WOLFMondo
01-21-2006, 07:13 AM
Computer Specs:

AMD 64bit 3500 (2.2ghz) 939pin
Gigabyte K8NXP Mobo
2GB Corsair XMS DDR3200
X800XT w/256mb RAM
Sound Blaster Audigy 2ZS
Enermax 475 watt PSU
Windows XP Pro#
CH Pro Pedals, CH Fighter Stick both using CH Manager software.

In Game settings:
Pitch, Roll and Yaw all 100 (I use the CH manager to dictate input, there all most maximum negative gain for all 3 axis). Will post a screen shot.

All calibrated before test.

FW190D9 44

Aileron and rudder trim never really keeps the plane centred and needs constant small amounts of correction in the yaw and roll. Tried it on 70, 80 and 90% power throughout the 3 times I tried it and the rudder ball never once centred while cruising. Right wing always begins to dip.

Slip indicator is always showing the plane trying to slip to the right unless corrected. Ball is off centre to the left all the time by at least half the width of the ball.

Once elevator trim is set its a dream to fly. Twitchy ailerons (which I like!) and sometimes a little too fast for comfort but extremely precise to control inputs, especially on the pitch. Always feel completely in control of everything it does, never once have to actually fight it to get it to do what you want.

I did a test on the A6 and the slip and ball were identicle to what happened in the Dora.

WOLFMondo
01-21-2006, 07:24 AM
Computer Specs:

AMD 64bit 3500 (2.2ghz) 939pin
Gigabyte K8NXP Mobo
2GB Corsair XMS DDR3200
X800XT w/256mb RAM
Sound Blaster Audigy 2ZS
Enermax 475 watt PSU
Windows XP Pro#
CH Pro Pedals, CH Fighter Stick both using CH Manager software.

In Game settings:
Pitch, Roll and Yaw all 100 (I use the CH manager to dictate input, there all most maximum negative gain for all 3 axis). Will post a screen shot.

All calibrated before test.

P51D

Only elevator trim needed. ball and slip perfectly centred at cruise without the need for trim.

Very precise control but the elevator is so over sensitive. My set up is very smooth and a little input on the stick produces almost no control movement and is reflected in the Dora and A6 test but the P51D reacts way to much, way to quickly for extremely precise elevator control. Rudder causes no wobble if released slowly.

Not nice to fly so close to the ground with elevators that react violently to such small inputs. It does actually feel like the centre of gravity is well behind the cockpit, I did use 75% fuel though as suggested.

Corsair MkII (Sorry, had to do it, its my pet peave plane, wobbles like a weeble)

Needed a little rudder trim but no aileron trim to get straight. Needs allot of negative elevator trim, it wants to life the nose as soon as you gain speed. Needs allot of attention paid to it over the speed range. Elevator/Rudder wobble even when control is released slowly (IMHO this is the worst of the planes that 'wobble'). Not amazingly responsive, doesn't like having its nose pointed down too much.

Lost my rudder a few times, did it on the 3rd go all the way through.

FW190A4.

I'm with Horseback on the ball, couldn't get it to centre unless at 90% power.

The controls are nice (my set up does suit the 190's though), sluggish in the roll at high speed. I don't experiance any wobbles (again controls set up for this family). Looses allot of height in turns without rudder.

Very much like a slower A6 which is really to be expected.

Made it round the course first time. I do feel this plane has very nice controls though, can be extremely precise 10m above the ground without fear of hitting it or a bridge (unlike the P51). Really well balanced although nose heavy but can be trimmed out.

DaimonSyrius
01-21-2006, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
P51D
Only elevator trim needed. ball and slip perfectly centred at cruise without the need for trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'm surprised that this may be so different from one system to another. For me, the P51D absolutely needs a sizeable amount of right rudder trim in order to cruise straight&level at around 400 Km/h. The right rudder trim has to be decreased as airspeed increases, but even at &gt;600 Km/h I still need some right rudder trim. The way the P51D behaves in my system, it wants constant attention to elevator and rudder trim (I don't need to use aileron trim) and very frequent adjustments when manoeuvering, that is, changing airspeed and attitude. Handling becomes terrible if flying out of rudder trim.

Of course I'm not saying that WolfMondo's report is wrong, just that I'm surprised to hear that in some systems the P51D can fly straight and level with neutral rudder trim.

Cheers,
S.

Controls settings:
Pitch, Yaw, Roll: 20 22 25 28 32 38 48 60 82 100
(No deadzones, Yaw filtered at 0.1)

Pentium4 2.4, 1Gb RAM, XP Pro SP2
GeForce 6800 Ultra, SB Audigy 1
TIR 3 Pro + Vector Expansion
Saitek X52 (Throttle, prop pitch, trims and others)
Saitek Cyborg Evo Force (main stick axes, pitch, yaw and roll)

*Edit* P.S. Wobbling is not a problem for me anymore after much tweaking of the conf.ini joystick settings, the P51 flies smoothly and comfortably now.

rnzoli
01-21-2006, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
*Edit* P.S. Wobbling is not a problem for me anymore after much tweaking of the conf.ini joystick settings, the P51 flies smoothly and comfortably now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would you care to post the new settings?. Or describe what you changed?

WOLFMondo
01-21-2006, 10:09 AM
My cruise was 520kph on 80% power, 75% fuel. The wobble on the P51 was never a problem for me, its always been the elevators that have annoyed me with that plane. Try the test with the Mustang MKIII.

DaimonSyrius, you used 75% fuel?

horseback
01-21-2006, 12:00 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

FW 190A-4

Felt heavy, sluggish, even at 500+kph.

Needs a lot of left rudder input to center ball unless throttle is 90% or better for straight and level flight. I thought the normal trim tabs were adjusted on the ground to set the aircraft for straight and level flight at cruise. Did this thing cruise at 90% power?

Elevator trim is critical; variations of 10-15kph require an adjustment

Nose bobs at times, as though I crossed a 'line' of some sort; a slight pull on the stick can begin smoothly, and then the 'bobbing' starts. More pronounced during turns to the right.

Due in part to the viewpoint, I always feel as if I should be pulling up. The nose is a bit heavy, the aircraft prefers to be going down rather than up or level.

Changes direction quickly, but bleeds speed (too) quickly, doesn't want to climb. On this course, that may be a virtue, because a couple of bridges are not that far apart but have to approached from varying angles.

After three attempts, I got as far as the roll back through the second pedestrian bridge. This FM is a LOT tougher than the last version of AEP (1.22?).

NOTE ON OVERALL RESULTS SO FAR:

I suspect that for the faster a/c, a Force Feedback stick is a huge advantage. There isn't much in the way of audio or visual cues when you're flying at the edge, even with a 5.1 speaker setup.

WOLFModo & DaimonSyrius, I appreciate your inputs very much. Please stay with it.

cheers

horseback

D13th_Toppy
01-21-2006, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
FW190D9 44

Aileron and rudder trim never really keeps the plane centred and needs constant small amounts of correction in the yaw and roll. Tried it on 70, 80 and 90% power throughout the 3 times I tried it and the rudder ball never once centred while cruising. Right wing always begins to dip.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe because it has no rudder or aileron trim?

DaimonSyrius
01-21-2006, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
*Edit* P.S. Wobbling is not a problem for me anymore after much tweaking of the conf.ini joystick settings, the P51 flies smoothly and comfortably now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would you care to post the new settings?. Or describe what you changed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi rnzoli, my new (no-wobble) settings are as I posted above, here's my conf.ini lines:

Ailerons: 1X1=0 20 22 25 28 32 38 48 60 82 100 0
Elevator: 1Y1=0 20 22 25 28 32 38 48 60 82 100 0
Rudder: 1RZ1=0 20 22 25 28 32 38 48 60 82 100 10

This is how the curve looks in IL2-Sticks (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#087), FoolTrottel's excellent tool to adjust and store joystick configurations:
http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/Stick-conf.jpg

The main problem, for me, was the adjustment of the rudder, which I have assigned to the Evo's twist handle. I wanted to:
- Keep the last value at the maximum (100%)because I need full rudder available when I *want* to slip the plane, for slowing down or dodging an enemy. Also needed for ground handling, taxiing, and also the brakes are linked to the rudder on the ground.

- Have a lower sensitivity around the axis center for more accurate inputs, because the twist handle has such a short travel. But if the starting sensitivity value was too low, it gave me a sort of deadzone-like result around the center, which wasn't good either.

So I settled down with that smoothly increasing curve starting at 20, then I applied the same values to the other axes, roll and pitch, since I felt the curve gives a good balance for my joystick. As I see it, the more recent, 'wobblier' FM's just demand that the control inputs are smooth and accurate, and that's the problem with our short-throw, twist handle joysticks. It would be like trying to drive a car with a very small steering wheel, it's so prone to excessive (or not enough) input followed by overcompensation (and that generates oscillations=wobble). I expect pedals would help, but the short-throw problem still remains.

Another point for me has been adjusting the force-feedback, which I find a necessity. I wish someone would make force-feedback rudder pedals too.

Re-reading this before posting, I'm thinking that it may sound as if some conf.ini settings would 'magically' get rid of the wobbliness. It's not so, what I'm trying to say is that the core of the problem is the increased need (increased because more secondary forces are included in the later FM's) for smooth and well coordinated inputs. Adjusting the joystick axes in conf.ini may allow to find a more adequate 'response curve' to allow the user to apply control forces more smoothly and accurately. So when I screw up and put too much rudder or too less or move my ailerons too quickly or too slow at the same time, certainly I still get wobbles. But adjusting my conf.ini lines gives me a better chance of doing smoother inputs, that's the thing.

WolfMondo, in the P51D I need some rudder trim to the right at all speeds, quite a bit when slow, less when fast, but I can't set rudder trim to neutral and have the ball centered at any speed without using the rudder controls. In fact, I find I need some rudder trim at all times in all single-engine prop planes, to the right or to the left according to the propellor's torque. Except the planes with fixed trim, of course, FW's and 109's, and a few others that don't have a rudder trim control, those are hard-set to be balanced at cruising speeds and need rudder to keep the ball centered at other speeds.

As to the fuel, I generally load 50% in the P51, but I know 75% makes it a bit more twitchy. Still, no matter what fuel load I take, 100% or 25%, if I set the rudder trim to neutral (as seen in the turning cockpit wheel) I cannot expect the P51 to fly straight with ball centered and no rudder (pedals) input.

Cheers,
S.

P.S. My apologies to the thread starter for hijacking, I suggest to move the 'wobble' discussions to one of the many threads about it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFMondo
01-21-2006, 12:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by D13th_Toppy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
FW190D9 44

Aileron and rudder trim never really keeps the plane centred and needs constant small amounts of correction in the yaw and roll. Tried it on 70, 80 and 90% power throughout the 3 times I tried it and the rudder ball never once centred while cruising. Right wing always begins to dip.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe because it has no rudder or aileron trim? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its rudder and aileron trim is set on the ground for cruising speed. Its preset so during the cruise your already trimmed out. One of the 190's neat little features is that the trim for cruise works for most of the entire speed range. In theory once your cruising or near cruising the 190's should even out and not need adjustments.

horseback
01-21-2006, 12:53 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

F4U-1A Corsair

Always wants to climb; trimming is a pain, seems uneven and unpredictable. As with the FW, elevator trim was critical, relatively slight changes in speed requiring adjustment. Rudder trim not so bad, didn't feel a need for aileron trimming.

Fairly smooth despite above, considering that this was my first series of flights in this type since patch 3.03m.

Turn and Bank, Climb indicators seemed a bit sluggish, but generally on the mark compared to the vector indicator in Wonder Woman view.

Nose bob is slightly worse than the FW's, but I can't be absolutely sure that it isn't due to the sloppiness of the elevator trimming.

Flew much of the course at around 450kph, which is faster than I would like, but except for the nose always raising on me, seemed to track where I wanted it to go, and the view from the cockpit is better than the 190 or YaK (although the wings look a bit cheesy-too small from the cockpit, I think).

As with the 190, several tries to complete the course, and I haven't so far. The best was the next to last attempt: I got through the first pedestrian bridge at a slight angle, but failed to correct enough for the next one. It's a big bird and you have to judge your centering just right.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> P.S. My apologies to the thread starter for hijacking, I suggest to move the 'wobble' discussions to one of the many threads about it </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely not a problem, DaimonSyrius, this is the whole point of the thread, getting some of the problems fixed, allowing other players insight into why some people aren't having the same problems that they do.

cheers

horseback

WOLFMondo
01-21-2006, 01:10 PM
Horseback, you might find the FW190 allot nice if you reduce your delfection in the elevator, so it starts at 1 and the curve is very gradual. Will make allot of difference for that plane.
Try it with the D9 as well, the 190's all seem to get progressivly more powerful and faster but all keep the same feel about them, the Antons and the Dora's.

horseback
01-21-2006, 04:49 PM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

NOTE: For the Mustang, and most US fighters, I find that it is most effective to set the throttle at about 80% (most of the time; combat and high alts can be another matter) and vary the Prop Pitch with an eye on the RPM dial. I try to stay around the 2000-2500rpm range with the Mustang and Allison engined fighters, and around 1800-2400rpm on the P-47 and other R-2800 fighters.

I've experimented with using the button assignments for the throttle up & down and the normal throttle axis for Prop Pitch (PP), but I've settled upon using my throttle axis for throttle (I'm older now, and easily confused by change) and assigning joystick buttons to Increase PP and Decrease PP. With my Pro Throttle, I have them on a 4-way hat right at my thumb for easy access. For instant response, I also have buttons assigned to 0% PP and 100% PP.

As always, your mileage may vary.

P-51B Mustang

Very trim hungry; rudder and elevator need constant trim inputs with speed or throttle changes -- particularly at lower speeds. Throttle at 80%, Prop Pitch at 55% most of the time.

Very fast. Drop the nose just a bit, and you're soon doing 500kph.

The faster you go, the smoother it tracks. Around 260-270 mph(440kph or so) seems to be the 'crossover' point; prior to this speed, any elevator input (stick or trim) seems exaggerated, with a corresponding nose bounce. Over 270, the elevator and rudder seem to me to be more precise, authoritive, although there is still some residual nose bobble with any change of aircraft attitude.

One factor that really helps you to line your plane up for a precise pass is the gunsight; the Mustang's 'pipper' is bright and visible, in contrast to the Corsair's or Hellcat's, which has a horizontal crossbar that is invisible unless you are in the Gunsight field of view setting. The Spitfire's is a bit better than that, though still a bit pale, while the Soviet fighters' gunsights are so bright and 'busy' as to obsure your view at times.

Just coincidentally, the German gunsights seem to me to be 'just right,' to quote Goldilocks.

Even at much higher speeds, the course is actually easier to fly in the Mustang than it is at 240 mph or below, but you MUST be smooth and coordinate your stick and rudder inputs, which makes the sloppiness and outright dishonesty of the Turn and Bank indicator simply egregious.

The only time the 'ball' is accurate is when you've been flying straight and level for 5 or 6 seconds minimum. Only practice and experience will allow you to overcome this shortcoming.

As has been well documented, firing the guns makes the nose oscillate quite a bit in all four directions. With my new much less sensitive settings, there is no change from the previous bobble, so this appears to be a modelled effect.

Thus endeth my 2500th post. Yippee-aye-oh-kye-yay!

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-22-2006, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

NOTE: For the Mustang, and most US fighters, I find that it is most effective to set the throttle at about 80% (most of the time; combat and high alts can be another matter) and vary the Prop Pitch with an eye on the RPM dial. I try to stay around the 2000-2500rpm range with the Mustang and Allison engined fighters, and around 1800-2400rpm on the P-47 and other R-2800 fighters.

I've experimented with using the button assignments for the throttle up & down and the normal throttle axis for Prop Pitch (PP), but I've settled upon using my throttle axis for throttle (I'm older now, and easily confused by change) and assigning joystick buttons to Increase PP and Decrease PP. With my Pro Throttle, I have them on a 4-way hat right at my thumb for easy access. For instant response, I also have buttons assigned to 0% PP and 100% PP.

As always, your mileage may vary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-47D-10 Thunderbolt

I may just be getting acclimated, but the Jug seems reasonably smooth--although nothing like as exhilerating as the Spitfire Mk IXe. Picks up speed in a hurry if you drop your nose, holds speed better in the turns if you increase PP% (think of it as accellerating into a turn).

I flew it with 80% throttle, and kept Prop Pitch at 55-65% most of the time, keeping my RPMs at around 2000. I averaged around 420kph around the course.

Turn and Bank indicator is reasonably close to matching the Wonder Woman Vector indicator, the trim is accurate and predictable (again, I only used rudder and elevator-aileron trim appears to be there just for looks).

As with the Bf 109, a little rudder into the direction of your banks helps a lot.

The forward view is simply atrocious: windshield & canopy framing are too thick, the instrument panel is out of your field of view when you are looking through the too-pale gunsight in 'Wide' field of view, and aligning your aircraft for the next bridge can be a cast iron &lt;(touchy female of the canine persuasion)&gt; when you're zipping along 4m over the deck at 400kph.

Despite this, I was able to align my mount fairly well due at least in part to my familiarity with the course, and the Jug's willing cooperation with my control inputs. There was no fighting with the elevation trim as speed increased or decreased.

Fitting this monster throught the pedestrian bridges is tough; I had to miss the signal light post going into the last 50m before the first bridge, and correct and center it again for the next bridge. It is doable, a slight bank helps give you more room if you can do it without digging in a wing at 3-4m off the deck.

It took me about 6 tries (and turning off the football playoff game--I love it when the Broncos lose!) before I could make it. I doubt that I could ever do it more than 2 out of five times, but it's a heck of a ride in the Jug.

Unfortunately, a lot of the joy goes right into the dumper when you fire the guns. There's a definite left-right yaw action going on there, a bit silly when you consider the size, weight, and momentum of the P-47. Not as pronounced as the Spit's, but it will take you off your target at ranges over 200m.

Flies honest, shoots like a politician.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-23-2006, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

NOTE: For the Mustang, and most US fighters, I find that it is most effective to set the throttle at about 80% (most of the time; combat and high alts can be another matter) and vary the Prop Pitch with an eye on the RPM dial. I try to stay around the 2000-2500rpm range with the Mustang and Allison engined fighters, and around 1800-2400rpm on the P-47 and other R-2800 fighters.

I've experimented with using the button assignments for the throttle up & down and the normal throttle axis for Prop Pitch (PP), but I've settled upon using my throttle axis for throttle (I'm older now, and easily confused by change) and assigning joystick buttons to Increase PP and Decrease PP. With my Pro Throttle, I have them on a 4-way hat right at my thumb for easy access. For instant response, I also have buttons assigned to 0% PP and 100% PP.

As always, your mileage may vary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

F6F-3 Hellcat

Definitely a trim aircraft, but not as bad as the Corsair or Mustang. Then again, it doesn't gain speed the way those two do. Elevator trim is touchy, but the aircraft can be trimmed for level flight.

turn and Bank indicator is fairly accurate, if you account for the ball being 1/4 to 1/2 width to the right of center for straight & level flight when perfectly trimmed.

The aircraft bobs noticeably during any change of direction, but it can usually be quickly compensated for.

Most of the flight was done at 80% throttle and 55% Prop Pitch, averaging 380-400 kph.

Gains speed fairly quickly in a dive, and left rudder or rudder trim is critical to keeping a ground target lined up.

The gunsight horizontal crosshair is practically invisible in less than Gunsight field of view, making it difficult to line up the aircraft for bridge underflights or for that matter, enemy aircraft.

On the plus side, there is no yawing or bobbling when the guns are fired.

cheers

horseback

horseback
01-25-2006, 09:30 AM
Computer specs:

Pentium P4, 3.06Ghz Hyperthreading
Abit VI7 motherboard with Via PT800 4 in 1 chipset
Windows XP Home
1 Gb DDR400 RAM (2x512Mb)
ATI 9800Pro/128Mb Video RAM, AGP
Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
430W power supply (I forget the brand)
TIR3Pro
CHProducts Combatstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals using CH Manager software to make one 8-axis, 30 button controller

In-Game Settings:
PITCH: 6 8 11 15 22 31 42 53 65 79 Filter:0.1
ROLL: 10 13 17 22 28 35 45 57 72 85 Filter:0.1
YAW: 15 18 22 28 36 45 55 65 75 85 Filter:0.1

FW 190D-9 (1944)

Wow. Just a really fun aircraft to fly. No worrying about prop pitch, just give her enough left or right rudder according to your speed/throttle settings, add a bit of elevator trim, and you're off. As with the Anton, you need to add left rudder to keep the 'ball' centered until you reach 80-90% throttle.

Turn and Bank indicator is almost as accurate as the 109's, if you keep the ball just a touch to the right of center. The climb indicator is a bit sluggish, as in most aircraft modelled in this sim, but you will find yourself fighting the tendency to make a shallow climb until you get used to the cockpit view, which is a bit restricted to the front.

Accellerates quickly and easily, and I found myself scooting along at 450+kph with the throttle set to 50-60%, but even so, it tracks smoothly, much more so than the 190A-4. With my joystick settings, you need a fair amount of mostly left rudder input to keep it tracking straight, but you will quickly get used to this and the Dora responds beautifully when you do. You're still aware of your speed, but control response is such that you aren't terribly concerned about it.

At the speeds this thing likes to fly, anticipating your turns and 'dips' on this course is critical, but I was able to handle everything but the last bit under the pedestrian bridges fairly easily.

At the end, the forward view becomes a bit of a liability, because the train tracks come up quickly and alignment with them is critical to getting through the second pedestrian bridge. Two or three meters off the deck, sudden moves are disastrous, and you must stay in Wide view to maintain a semblance of awareness of your surroundings, and at those speeds you need to be lined up on the tracks with a heading of 313-317 degrees well in advance. Being able to flick from Gunsight to Wide fields of view and maintain control is critical here, because you can't see the tracks in Wide view until the last couple of seconds.

It took me three tries to get it all the way to the landing strip north of town. It was much easier than the P-47, despite the much higher speeds, and the course becomes progressively easier with practice.

There is no bobble when you fire the MGs or cannon, so lining up your target and hitting it should be fairly easy once you master the rudder inputs required.

cheers

horseback