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View Full Version : Ingame turn rate results - G2 IXe FW190 P51 (big pics inside!)



Abbuzze
04-05-2006, 04:29 AM
Hello, first a few words, I´m not a good test pilot, and I´m even not interested in being one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I like to boom and zoom, so turnrates are not that interesting for me, but nevertheless they are important for the FM and even more the energy bleed.

I was thinking about the problem to get ingame figures. Deed in my head I remembered a small tool called "UdpGraph". Found it here http://www.avcsite.ru/il2dl/graph_en.htm and tested it.
Very interesting, the "device link" of FB give us a lot of information! With my old physiks shool book I put a few formulas in UdpGraph´s interface with good results, now this tool is logging:
- IAS (km/h and m/s)
- TAS (km/h and m/s)
- g-forces
- Turning radius
- turntime (needed time to 360 deg turn)
- Heading
- 360lenght (circumference)

Here are my UdpGraph.ini:
UdpGraph.ini (http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/UdpGraph.ini)
(Will paste the mainpart also at the bottom of this post)


And here is a excel template. If you open the *.csv logfiles with excel or Openoffice Calc in the right way you can copy and paste them there, and also get the chart (line 600) you just have to set the range or the chart.
[/URL]VorlageTemplate.xls (http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Vorlage%20Template.xls)

Nevertheless there are some limitations, all of this informations based on TAS and g-load. Devicelink don´t give us a TAS, but there is a simplyfied method in UdpGraph to calculate it, but the best way is to perform all tests downl low! The g-load has another problem, the gravity If you fly perfect straight, no climb no descent you still have 1g and so this tool will log a turning radius and all other turn informations. But if you do high g-load turning test and banking nearly 85 degree the influence of this is very small.

At the end all results suffer of this problems in the same way, so comparing it to RL test is not a real good idea, comparing different ingame planes should be no problem.

Here a few examples, not very good flown, but this should be a job for our testpilots in this forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All test with 100% fuel and radiator out of the box position. No flaps were used in this tests. First I tried to stabilize the plane at 3g and more than 400km/h, then I tried to pull as hard as possible to reach the slowest speed where turning is still possible.



Interesting on the LA5FN is the unablity to stall - take a look at the smooth turning at the end. Full upward trim and elevator deflection full upward, it still turns smooth with some shaking - Thats real a bit Ufo like!

EDIT: Because noone is answering a small analyse of the results.
The SpitV is a very good turner, 300m diameter for a complete circle. MK IXe is worse but still better than the best turning 109 the G2, because it has a similar turning circle, but with a higher speed, so it needs less time for a complete circle! Remarkable is the unwill to slow down, compared to the V. Maybe a to high stallspeed, but also maybe to less energybleed. This would needs a deeper observation. And this is maybe also the cause why people believe Spit turns worse than G2. The 109 slows down more, and therefore flying a slower but tighter circle, which means nothing more than the BF pilot can pull lead.

P51 with 100% is in the same range as the A6 bit smaller circle, but also needs a bit longer for 360 deg.
At the end very similar.

Energybleed: The Spit is not willing to slow down, but achiev a high g-load, resulting a very small circle.
The characteristic is a combination of the 109 and the 190. The FW are don´t want to decellarate, but has a much wider circle. The 109 reaches a small circle very fast, but also gets slow very soon.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_LA5FN.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_P51D20.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_SpitIXe.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_SpitVb.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_bf109G2.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_FW190A6.jpg

2nd Test:

50m altitude, and ~450 km/h simulating an attack from dead 6, I broke left and pulled as hard as possible for a 360 degree turn. As I said upd graph is also logging the circumference, but the numbers are so great, that it is not usefull to draw them in the same chart.

EDIT: I added a new Template, cimcumference/10 is added to the chart (didn´t had the idea before http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/EBleed_FW190A6.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/EBleed_Spitfire%20IXe.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/EBleed_BF109G2.jpg

So have fun!

Here the interesting part of the udpgraph.ini:

[graphs2]


altimeter=1, 1, 2, 1, 16777215, 0.00, 1.00, altimeter
IAS_mps=1, 1, 2, 1, 12632256, 17000000.00, 0.00, ispeed/3.6
IAS_kph=1, 1, 2, 1, 255, 0.00, 1.00, ispeed
TAS_mps=1, 1, 0, 1, 13353215, 0, 600, tas2(ispeed,altimeter)
TAS_kph=1, 1, 2, 1, 16777215, 0.00, 0.00, tas2(ispeed,altimeter)*3.6
gForce_g=1, 1, 2, 1, 16711680, 0.00, 1.00, overload
Radius_m=1, 1, 2, 0, 55295, 0.00, 500.00, (tas2(ispeed,altimeter)*3.6*(1+altimeter/15000))^2/(overload*9.81)
turntime_s=1, 1, 2, 0, 16777152, 0.00, 30.00, 2*3.14159*tas2(ispeed,altimeter)/(overload*9.81)
HDG=1, 1, 2, 1, 2124031, 0.00, 0.00, azimuth
360length_m=1, 1, 2, 1, 16777215, 0.00, 0.00, 2*3.14159*(tas2(ispeed,altimeter)*3.6*(1+altimeter/15000))^2/(overload*9.81)

Abbuzze
04-05-2006, 04:29 AM
Hello, first a few words, I´m not a good test pilot, and I´m even not interested in being one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I like to boom and zoom, so turnrates are not that interesting for me, but nevertheless they are important for the FM and even more the energy bleed.

I was thinking about the problem to get ingame figures. Deed in my head I remembered a small tool called "UdpGraph". Found it here http://www.avcsite.ru/il2dl/graph_en.htm and tested it.
Very interesting, the "device link" of FB give us a lot of information! With my old physiks shool book I put a few formulas in UdpGraph´s interface with good results, now this tool is logging:
- IAS (km/h and m/s)
- TAS (km/h and m/s)
- g-forces
- Turning radius
- turntime (needed time to 360 deg turn)
- Heading
- 360lenght (circumference)

Here are my UdpGraph.ini:
UdpGraph.ini (http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/UdpGraph.ini)
(Will paste the mainpart also at the bottom of this post)


And here is a excel template. If you open the *.csv logfiles with excel or Openoffice Calc in the right way you can copy and paste them there, and also get the chart (line 600) you just have to set the range or the chart.
[/URL]VorlageTemplate.xls (http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Vorlage%20Template.xls)

Nevertheless there are some limitations, all of this informations based on TAS and g-load. Devicelink don´t give us a TAS, but there is a simplyfied method in UdpGraph to calculate it, but the best way is to perform all tests downl low! The g-load has another problem, the gravity If you fly perfect straight, no climb no descent you still have 1g and so this tool will log a turning radius and all other turn informations. But if you do high g-load turning test and banking nearly 85 degree the influence of this is very small.

At the end all results suffer of this problems in the same way, so comparing it to RL test is not a real good idea, comparing different ingame planes should be no problem.

Here a few examples, not very good flown, but this should be a job for our testpilots in this forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All test with 100% fuel and radiator out of the box position. No flaps were used in this tests. First I tried to stabilize the plane at 3g and more than 400km/h, then I tried to pull as hard as possible to reach the slowest speed where turning is still possible.



Interesting on the LA5FN is the unablity to stall - take a look at the smooth turning at the end. Full upward trim and elevator deflection full upward, it still turns smooth with some shaking - Thats real a bit Ufo like!

EDIT: Because noone is answering a small analyse of the results.
The SpitV is a very good turner, 300m diameter for a complete circle. MK IXe is worse but still better than the best turning 109 the G2, because it has a similar turning circle, but with a higher speed, so it needs less time for a complete circle! Remarkable is the unwill to slow down, compared to the V. Maybe a to high stallspeed, but also maybe to less energybleed. This would needs a deeper observation. And this is maybe also the cause why people believe Spit turns worse than G2. The 109 slows down more, and therefore flying a slower but tighter circle, which means nothing more than the BF pilot can pull lead.

P51 with 100% is in the same range as the A6 bit smaller circle, but also needs a bit longer for 360 deg.
At the end very similar.

Energybleed: The Spit is not willing to slow down, but achiev a high g-load, resulting a very small circle.
The characteristic is a combination of the 109 and the 190. The FW are don´t want to decellarate, but has a much wider circle. The 109 reaches a small circle very fast, but also gets slow very soon.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_LA5FN.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_P51D20.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_SpitIXe.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_SpitVb.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_bf109G2.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/Graph_FW190A6.jpg

2nd Test:

50m altitude, and ~450 km/h simulating an attack from dead 6, I broke left and pulled as hard as possible for a 360 degree turn. As I said upd graph is also logging the circumference, but the numbers are so great, that it is not usefull to draw them in the same chart.

EDIT: I added a new Template, cimcumference/10 is added to the chart (didn´t had the idea before http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/EBleed_FW190A6.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/EBleed_Spitfire%20IXe.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/udpgraph/EBleed_BF109G2.jpg

So have fun!

Here the interesting part of the udpgraph.ini:

[graphs2]


altimeter=1, 1, 2, 1, 16777215, 0.00, 1.00, altimeter
IAS_mps=1, 1, 2, 1, 12632256, 17000000.00, 0.00, ispeed/3.6
IAS_kph=1, 1, 2, 1, 255, 0.00, 1.00, ispeed
TAS_mps=1, 1, 0, 1, 13353215, 0, 600, tas2(ispeed,altimeter)
TAS_kph=1, 1, 2, 1, 16777215, 0.00, 0.00, tas2(ispeed,altimeter)*3.6
gForce_g=1, 1, 2, 1, 16711680, 0.00, 1.00, overload
Radius_m=1, 1, 2, 0, 55295, 0.00, 500.00, (tas2(ispeed,altimeter)*3.6*(1+altimeter/15000))^2/(overload*9.81)
turntime_s=1, 1, 2, 0, 16777152, 0.00, 30.00, 2*3.14159*tas2(ispeed,altimeter)/(overload*9.81)
HDG=1, 1, 2, 1, 2124031, 0.00, 0.00, azimuth
360length_m=1, 1, 2, 1, 16777215, 0.00, 0.00, 2*3.14159*(tas2(ispeed,altimeter)*3.6*(1+altimeter/15000))^2/(overload*9.81)

Sintubin
04-05-2006, 10:16 AM
Thx Abbuzze

wil look in to it

very nice tool to have

LA5FN UFO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif we didend now that before http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
04-05-2006, 09:25 PM
Links all broken on those tests.

Hey. Ya don't think that the Spit IXe might go faster around the circle because it maybe has
the power to overcome more drag? Just by any chance?

Ditto for the La-7, a very powerful plane?

You know that Finnish tests tell of 109G-6 stall speed at full power is 130kph?
With the nose pointing very high up? The power keeps it going, you have lift in stall but with
enough power you don't fall while you can ride the stall. Only way out is more power or dive.

In meantime I have found that slats planes ability to do uncoordinated stall turns was more
in 4.0 and less every step so far. But apparently not just slats planes. I ASKED questions
if it is right and good answers backed by history come it may not be so far wrong as I
thought. I did email Oleg and no answer but next patches it was a little less, also answer.
My thought is we are down to fine tuning.

Abbuzze
04-06-2006, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Links all broken on those tests.

Hey. Ya don't think that the Spit IXe might go faster around the circle because it maybe has
the power to overcome more drag? Just by any chance?

Ditto for the La-7, a very powerful plane?

You know that Finnish tests tell of 109G-6 stall speed at full power is 130kph?
With the nose pointing very high up? The power keeps it going, you have lift in stall but with
enough power you don't fall while you can ride the stall. Only way out is more power or dive.

In meantime I have found that slats planes ability to do uncoordinated stall turns was more
in 4.0 and less every step so far. But apparently not just slats planes. I ASKED questions
if it is right and good answers backed by history come it may not be so far wrong as I
thought. I did email Oleg and no answer but next patches it was a little less, also answer.
My thought is we are down to fine tuning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Webtraffic was to much for my webspace. Sorry.

I didn´t judged the results. They are results not more and nothing less. Pity that the charts are not seeable anymore.

The only strange thing is the unstallable LA5FN. Full trim and elevator up and no stall at 85? bank, thats a bit... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
04-06-2006, 10:15 AM
What speed is that? It is important.

Try 109G-6 100% power level flight, how slow can you go without losing altitude?
Or perhaps it is 110% and WEP the Finns used, Jurinko knows as he has the full documents.
What they found If I Remember Correctly is full power stall at 130kph, nose 60 degree though
I was told that is 60 down from vertical so 30 degree pitch up. If you can bank and turn
then... it should not but that is still less than 15% too good.