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View Full Version : Any chance we'll eventually see a P-40 Warhawk in BoB...???



Charlie901
03-13-2005, 10:03 PM
Didn't the U.S.A. Lend lease these to the Brits during the Battle of Britain? If so do you think we'd ever see one, eventually, in BoB?

Or do you think Oleg's running scared of the U.S. Lawyers?

Charlie901
03-13-2005, 10:03 PM
Didn't the U.S.A. Lend lease these to the Brits during the Battle of Britain? If so do you think we'd ever see one, eventually, in BoB?

Or do you think Oleg's running scared of the U.S. Lawyers?

VW-IceFire
03-13-2005, 10:20 PM
They weren't used in combat over Britain. Just training as far as I know.

Spitfires and Hurricanes were sometimes operating at 20,000 feet or more against the 109s and bombers coming in. At this altitude, the P-40s were sluggish and slow in comparison...plus its climb rate was lower. It was not a good plane for combat in defense of England.

I really hope the lawyer situation is cleared up. I was kind of hoping for BOB > Med > D-Day to VE-Day > Eastern Front > Pacific sort of order. But it may be BOB, parts of the Med, and then Eastern Front.

Chuck_Older
03-14-2005, 07:18 AM
Lend-lease went through congress in March 1941. The P-40B first flew two days later, on March 13th.

The French order in 1940 went to England by September of 1940. The now-British Tomahawks were deemed unfit for combat by the RAF(although they were technically operational in I think two squadrons) and relegated to training roles...140 aircraft is the number I recall.

RAF had a terrible teething period in which planes were not of highest quality, prior to WWII

But the Spit and Hurri were in development well in advance of the Battle of Britain (1937ish)

Furies (SuperFuries? must have been) and Gladiators were the main RAF fighters prior to the Battle of Britain and served quite ably as training aircraft. Bulldogs too, I imagine. Hawker Hart or Hind? I don't know, I'm not an RAF expert

horseback
03-14-2005, 02:23 PM
P-36/Hawk 75A was the Curtiss aircraft evaluated for use in the BoB, former French orders for the type being diverted to Britain. It was said to be more maneuverable than the Spitfire, but also slower & more lightly armed (4 or 6 French 7.5mm LMGs were the original armament), and not as fast in the dive as the Spit.

Renamed the Mohawk, it was not used in the Battle, British types being available in sufficient numbers, although it saw later use in the CBI with the RAF.

cheers

horseback

Chuck_Older
03-14-2005, 02:57 PM
Are you sure about that, horseback? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Mohawks and Tomahawk Is that were ear-marked for France went to the UK after France fell.

In April 1940, the French order of 140 Hawk 81A-1s was set to be delivered, but not one was finished for the Armee de l'Air before the fall of France. These Hawk 81A-1s then went to England instead as Tomahawk Is by September, and some went to West Africa as well.

These would be almost identical aircraft to P-40As, with no armor for the pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif, so the RAF said "No thanks" to the Tomahawk Is for use against the Luftwaffe. Later, in '41, No. 2 Squadron would use then for some recon work.

The Mohawks that went to England instead of France were mks. I, II, II, and IV and unless my ref is totally bogus, these were in addition to, not in lieu of, Tomahawk Is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Or</span> am I misunderstanding, and the RAF only evaluated the Mohawk for use in the Battle of Britain? Seems odd to me that they would exclude the Tomahawk, since they had them, too

NetDaemon
03-14-2005, 08:32 PM
I believe the Tomahawk Mk.I was deemed unfit for combat at high altitudes so it was discarded from Fighter Command and sent to Support Command for close air support and recon duties during BoB and beyond.

Same same story with the Mustang Mk.I but a couple years later.

But I`m no RAF expert either so I maybe all wrong here.

Copperhead310th
03-14-2005, 08:45 PM
Never the less we will never see an American aircraft in BoB (Battle of Boring). The Euro ...... i'll stop my self there on that statment.

i doubt we will ever see another americain aircraft in another Maddox sim. Period. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SkyChimp
03-14-2005, 09:00 PM
I'd like to see the Hawk 75 in BoB, since it was signifcant during the Battle of France. But the French Hawk had some peculiararities like a throttle that operated backwards (push forward to decrease power), and 7.5mm French guns, which were underwhelming.

NetDaemon
03-14-2005, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Never the less we will never see an American aircraft in BoB (Battle of Boring). The Euro ...... i'll stop my self there on that statment.

i doubt we will ever see another americain aircraft in another Maddox sim. Period. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh I see, so now it`s Europe`s fault/conspiracy that the yank planes aren`t coming.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

So I guess Europe hired all those greedy american lawyers to keep Oleg from adding yank a/c into his sims.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Chuck_Older
03-15-2005, 04:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NetDaemon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Never the less we will never see an American aircraft in BoB (Battle of Boring). The Euro ...... i'll stop my self there on that statment.

i doubt we will ever see another americain aircraft in another Maddox sim. Period. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh I see, so now it`s Europe`s fault/conspiracy that the yank planes aren`t coming.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

So I guess Europe hired all those greedy american lawyers to keep Oleg from adding yank a/c into his sims.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This statement is at least as silly and prejudiced as the one you're quoting

MEGILE
03-15-2005, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Euro ...... i'll stop my self there on that statment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Smart move Copper http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Skarphol
03-15-2005, 06:53 AM
This is info taken from Joe Baughers articles on the Mohawk and Tomahawk in RAF service:

About the Mohawk:

"Those Hawk 75As which had not yet been delivered to France before the surrender (most of them A-4s), plus those whose pilots had flown them to England to escape the German occupation were taken over by the RAF and given the name Mohawk. The total number of Mohawks impressed by the RAF was 229 planes. Most of them were former French machines, but a few former Persian Hawks and even some Indian-built machines were included in the Mohawk total as well.
There were four RAF sub-variants--Mohawk I, II, III, and IV.
(.....)
Mohawks taken on strength by the Royal Air Force were refitted with British equipment, including 0.303-calibre Browning machine guns. The French throttles were replaced by throttles which operated in the "British fashion", i.e., were pushed forward to increase the power. The RAF decided that its Mohawks were not suitable for the European theater, and sent 72 of them to the South African Air Force (where they were flown by the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Squadrons which operated in East Africa), while others were flown by the 5 and 155th RAF squadrons based in India. At one time, eight Mohawks provided the sole fighter defense of North-East India, and the fighter remained operational on the Burma front until finally replaced by more modern types in December 1943.
12 Mohawks were sent to Portugal."

About the Tomahawk I:

"This was in the days before Lend-Lease, and so the aircraft had only RAF serial numbers and markings, and were not issued USAAC serials or designations. The Curtiss construction numbers were 14446/14545 and 14091/14130. RAF serials were AH741/AH880. At least three (AH774, AH793, and AH840) were retained in Canada but still retaining their RAF serials.
However, Britain quickly concluded that these planes were not suitable for combat, since they lacked armor protection for the pilot, armor-glass windshields, or self-sealing fuel tanks. Nevertheless, since a German invasion was feared to be imminent, they were actually issued to several operational squadrons.
However, the Hun never invaded England, and so the Tomahawk Is were used only for training roles within Britain. Overseas, the first Desert Air Force squadron to be equipped with Tomahawks was No. 112 which exchanged its Gloster Gladiators for the Curtiss fighter. No 112 Squadron became famous for its "shark's tooth" insignia on the engine cowling, and this scheme was later adopted by the American Volunteer Group in China
Tomahawk II was the designation given to a new and improved export Tomahawk, one which was better equipped for combat. It was functionally equivalent to the P-40B and P-40C then being issued to USAAC units. Unfortunately, some discrepancies exist in Curtiss records matching Tomahawk designations to RAF serial numbers and correlations to P-40s. "

Skarphol

NetDaemon
03-15-2005, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NetDaemon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Never the less we will never see an American aircraft in BoB (Battle of Boring). The Euro ...... i'll stop my self there on that statment.

i doubt we will ever see another americain aircraft in another Maddox sim. Period. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh I see, so now it`s Europe`s fault/conspiracy that the yank planes aren`t coming.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

So I guess Europe hired all those greedy american lawyers to keep Oleg from adding yank a/c into his sims.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This statement is at least as silly and prejudiced as the one you're quoting <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



It`s called sarcasm.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But yeah, I`m prejudiced against greedy lawyers all the time.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
03-15-2005, 12:50 PM
Probably not in the BoB, but be certain you will see it and all other aircraft in the expansions/patches. Oleg has already stated in several interviews that he intends to go around the theaters of war again with new engine. May take awhile but it will happen.

horseback
03-15-2005, 04:25 PM
Major reason I cited Hawk 75 is because they were available in useful numbers, and already put together; the Battle of France was over by June, the expected assault by the Luftwaffe was expected to come at any moment after that. The RAF were looking at how quickly they might have to transition squadrons to the new types if British aircraft were not available in sufficient numbers.

The Curtiss Hawk 81 was a brand new type with no proven track record at that time, and the Allison installation had made some serious differences in flight performance.

The Model 75 was also described as having a better climb than the 81, which would have made it preferable for bomber interception at that time. Overall, its flying characteristics may have been more compatible with RAF fighter philosophy in mid-1940.

Certainly, the Desert Air Force's initial use of the Tomahawk/Warhawk later in North Africa does not inspire confidence.

cheers

horseback