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View Full Version : OT T-34 vs. Tiger release date?



josephs1959
11-20-2007, 04:48 AM
Any news on the release date of T-34 vs. Tiger yet?

josephs1959
11-20-2007, 04:48 AM
Any news on the release date of T-34 vs. Tiger yet?

ptg101
11-20-2007, 05:08 AM
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> </pre>Alpha Demo & Info (http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?s=be7f4f05b0a828b1bd0edf917d4680a0&t=10794)

K_Freddie
11-20-2007, 07:51 AM
Euuggghghhhhh!! Pongo discussion in an aviation forum... whip him I say whip him...MODDDDDDDDSSS
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I only left open threads that pertained to IL2, WW2 aviation, WW2 history </div></BLOCKQUOTE> err Froggy where are you?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

T_O_A_D
11-20-2007, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Euuggghghhhhh!! Pongo discussion in an aviation forum... whip him I say whip him...MODDDDDDDDSSS
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I only left open threads that pertained to IL2, WW2 aviation, WW2 history </div></BLOCKQUOTE> err Froggy where are you?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif his loop hole <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Soon I'll lock this one down too, so if you have something to say, get it off your chest soon, This vent hole will soon be shut, and others will be too, short the PM's, and we will all go back to talking about our past time, and things directly involved because of it. (IE)
IL2 Sturmovik and all its versions
WW2 stories, battles and equipment
Any Aviation related topics (by the way I feel any aviation topic should not be listed as OT)
charts, graphs, comparisions, Balistics, etc.
Ourselves, pics, get to know ya etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

josephs1959
11-20-2007, 08:02 AM
Ooops! I didn't know this site turned out to be so strict?

K_Freddie
11-20-2007, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif his loop hole </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ever considered a career in politics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

josephs1959 just put OT (Off Topic) in your headings and it SHOULD be OK - I was having a bit of fun with regard to other threads http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

T_O_A_D
11-20-2007, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif his loop hole </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ever considered a career in politics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly this place is enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif


at least this sim is in the WW2 equipment Genre

VF-17_BOOM
11-20-2007, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by josephs1959:
Any news on the release date of T-34 vs. Tiger yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just discovered the demo,It's very good!! and very playable on my laptop,the sim should be out in USSR now or soon,still haven't heard about a U.S. release.Here's the publishers web page.

http://games.iddk.ru/en/?pg=gm39

The most update info I can find is at Sim HQ here's a link
http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=104&page=1

If you haven't tried the demo,DO IT!!! it's great and highly immersive. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Monty_Thrud
11-20-2007, 09:13 AM
I like the look of that, i hope this title will be expanded on...erm...like, the Churchill vs the King Tiger, etc... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

JG6_Oddball
11-20-2007, 01:09 PM
Tiger vs T-34.....109Z vs P-11 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

S!

josephs1959
11-20-2007, 02:32 PM
A)Monty-Thrud; Although that would be nice,Tiger/Chuchill and the eventual expansion into the Western Theatre. I was thinking along the lines of Panther(me) vs. Js II.(some poor shmuk) @ 1,000 yds.Then I believe it would be down to whomever loads/reloads the quickest.B)JG6 Oddball;Donald Sutherland's best performance! He's a riot in that movie."Woof Woof" "Negative Vibes"

JG52Uther
11-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Ah but Joseph,if you want a realistic sim experience it would be you in the Panther, Vs 300 JS-2's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Metatron_123
11-20-2007, 05:44 PM
Nah maybe 300 T-34/85s I don't think there were that many JSs around at the time

Metatron_123
11-20-2007, 05:44 PM
Nah maybe 300 T-34/85s I don't think there were that many JSs around at the time.

leitmotiv
11-20-2007, 06:42 PM
Downloaded. Made by the same gang which did the excellent Kharkov 1942 T-34/76 demo earlier this year. Ought to be interesting. Would have preferred the infinitely more challenging 1943 situation with T-34/76s vs the early Tiger I.

Daiichidoku
11-20-2007, 07:52 PM
waiting to DL part3 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif



need a KoTS demo now too.......

leitmotiv
11-21-2007, 08:14 AM
KOTS, yes, yes, yes. The only true pacifier until BOB the SOW.

Vacillator
11-21-2007, 08:42 AM
Yes the demo is well worth a look. If you're up for a bit of text editing you can also get to drive the Tiger (although I'm not convinced you actually get the Tiger's gun, needs some exhaustive testing) and you can also add more enemy tanks. I've currently got 4 PzIVs defending the village (hard), and I've also tried adding a Tiger to the defense which made it so tricky I could only win by using a 'captured' Tiger myself!

More details of how to do the editing are at the forum mentioned above:

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=104&page=1

The only fiddly bit to adding new tanks is getting the coordinates right...

The forum also has comments on plans to have add-ons and develop pretty much like the Il2 series did. Sounds great to me.

general_kalle
11-21-2007, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG6_Oddball:
Tiger vs T-34.....109Z vs P-11 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

erhh, its not just a T34
its a T34-85

armed with a 84 millimeter cannon and much heavier tank.

id say T34-84 is better than the tiger.

josephs1959
11-22-2007, 12:02 PM
Better than the Tiger? I believe that a weapon's effectiveness is more than mere specifications.Well their cannon's armor piercing effectiveness are about the same at range, about 5" @ 1,000 yds. Although the Tiger had better more acurate optics for aiming. The T-34/85 had better weight distribution, more maneuverability and speed. BUT, the Tiger was easier to drive and steer. A hydralically powered steering wheel(power steering) instead of steering levers for the T-34/85. The Tiger had thicker hull armor (slopinfg of the T-34/85's hull armor included)and the steel of the Tiger was harder.The Germans hardened their tank steel.The Russians as well as the Americans simply cast their armor. The armor in the turret was equally thick about 4". The T-34 was more mechanically reliable. The Tiger's interwoven wheel-set was more cabaple of withstanding mines although it was harder/longer to repair. MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, the Tiger's crews were MUCH better trained. Individual German tank crew commanders knew what to do in certain situations without having to wait for further orders. EX;A platoon of German Tank Commanders were simply ordered to take that hill for instance by the higher officers. But the individual commanders thought for themsleves on how to do it tactically. Whereas the Russian crews partly because of Stalin's paranoia weren't trusted with too much knowledge and so weren't trained as well.The Tiger had better communications. A FM radio for every tank instead of the T-34/85's one radio for every ten tanks,the Russians used flags for communications. There are numerous occations where T-34/85's would break through the thinly held lines of the Germans and instead of making the most of the tank's speed and range with their outside fuel tanks. Many T-34's were simply shot up standing still while their crews waited for further orders from above by the Germans second line of defence, The 88mm/pak/43's.-12" @ 3,000 yds. (Panzer Battles by Maj. Gen. F.W.von Mellenthin. Ballintine books.Part three I believe chapters 15 or 17)Finally, if you compare the kill ratio of tigers to T-34/85's and visa versa there would be no comparison. Yes the Tigers were outnumbered, (I believe only 5 Tigers were operational on any one front)but for the reasons I explained above are the only explanation for the discrepancies.

JG6_Oddball
11-22-2007, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:

erhh, its not just a T34
its a T34-85

armed with a 84 millimeter cannon and much heavier tank.

id say T34-84 is better than the tiger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A boy and his dog...A man and his tiger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif, some interesting reading for you
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm

S!

joeap
11-22-2007, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by josephs1959:
Whereas the Russian crews partly because of Stalin's paranoia weren't trusted with too much knowledge and so weren't trained as well. ...A FM radio for every tank instead of the T-34/85's one radio for every ten tanks,the Russians used flags for communications. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please no more of this baloney mythology. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Where do people come up with this stuff?? Yes you made some good points and yes, early in the war the Russians used flags but by 1944 a much higher proportion of the tank force had radios (partly due to lend-lease).

joeap
11-22-2007, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG6_Oddball:


A boy and his dog...A man and his tiger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif, some interesting reading for you
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes well one guy can't win a war can he? No disrespect to the guy or the fine tank that was the Tiger, but the comparison of Bf-109Z to P-11 was silly and pretty well...silly. A useless experimental plane and a hopeless obselete fighter. The T-34 was a ground-breaking design when it came out and certainly was better than anything in the German arsenal at the time (41-42). It was poor initial training and lack of skill (and early lack of radios) that nullified their effectiveness. The Tiger was actually under development BEFORE the Germans ran into the T-34 so it was not really a response to it.

The German response was the great "medium" (heavy compared to Western) Panther.

tools4foolsA
11-25-2007, 07:03 AM
T-34 was very good first when it came out in that it had sloped armour plus wide tracks for lower ground pressure and therefore better going on soft ground.

However it was a bad design in such as it had a two man turret which made the tank virtually blind whenever the tank commander was on the gun.
On top no radio made tactical communication on the battlefield next to impossible relying on signal flags of command tank...
Lacking a cupola wasn't smart either, either visibility was very restricted when buttoned up or commander would be exposed to all kind of fire. (Germans put cupolas on captured T-34's...)

Only in 44 the 85mm cannon T-34 came out and then with radios and 3 man turret and cupola it really became a good tank.

Except that by then its hull armour couldn't keep any of the German present day AT rounds out...while Panther and Tiger could resist 85mm hits at longer ranges.

Other niceties of Tiger were easiness to steer, very accurate gun laying (expereinced gunners could do it entirely with the auto traverse, didn't need the hand wheel to fine adjust), good optics, rolled homogenous armor which was quite hard but flexible enough not to crack open.

Tiger vs T-34/76 is bad news for T-34 crew...very bad news...You need to get inside of 500m and a dead on hit. Side only, forget about front. And no angle, if you hit side with angle your out of luck again...

Tiger vs T34/85 is much better for T-34, but you don't want to slug it out at longer ranges...

*****

leitmotiv
11-25-2007, 08:03 AM
The correct designation is T-34-85.

I tried to try the demo---it was a complete mess. Could not get all the controls to work. All I was able to do was to change positions, load and fire the gun, elevate and depress the 85mm, turn the turret, select ammunition, and fire the m.g. I could not get the engine to start by using "E." I was unable to look through the gunner's telescopic sight.

The brand new, improved Steel Fury demo is supposed to be fabulous. I used the old version quite a bit early in the year, and I have the new one, but have not used it. Here it is (at top of list):

http://www.dgames.ru/download.php?L=en&PHPSESSID=edda55...c0e790ee9d5c6725d1b1 (http://www.dgames.ru/download.php?L=en&PHPSESSID=edda5563311bc0e790ee9d5c6725d1b1)

Does anybody know of a link to the TvT demo other than the ones given?

VF-17_BOOM
11-25-2007, 08:19 AM
Hello leitmotiv,I had trouble at first with the TvT demo,The best way to get the T-34 mobile is hit E-[engine start]*-[gets up rpms]A-[puts tank in 1st gear]and finally T-[disengage/re-engage brakes] it takes some getting used to but it grows on you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Also Thank You for the link to the NEW STEEL FURY DEMO as the old one was unplayable for me,I'll try this version and see what happens.

leitmotiv
11-25-2007, 08:23 AM
Thanks, Ace. Y'know, I had no sound, either. I just downloaded from another site, and I'll see if I have more luck with it. If the new SF demo is as hot as the videos show it to be, I think you'll enjoy it. Can't wait for it to come out---the early E Front period is more interesting to me than the late.

Divine-Wind
11-25-2007, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
charts, graphs, comparisions </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry but ROFLOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Okay, on subject. I've downloaded the Steel Fury demo, haven't tried it yet. Will get this one too, always up for some tank on tank action!


Wait that came out wrong.

leitmotiv
11-26-2007, 06:52 AM
OK, Experten! I have an excellent install, everything works, but (1) how do I disengage the frikkin parking brake? (I assume this is why the tank isn't moving when I have her in gear), (2) how do I get my frikkin eye over the tele sight to aim? and (3) how do I get unbuttoned when in commander's slot? Other than the above, I'm really impressed with this baby!

Edit: OK, "T" is the parking brake, and Crtl + F1 gives you the gunner's sight. There are a whole lot of commands that aren't given, like how do you order the driver about? How do you give commands to the gunner? Etc.

Chivas
11-26-2007, 11:18 AM
WWII Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger is scheduled for release in Q1 2008.



Lighthouse Interactive has acquired the European publishing rights to G5's simulation game WWII Battle Tanks: T-34 vs Tiger, a realistic WW2 Tank simulation game allowing players to experience the power of some of the most advanced weaponry of its time and battle the enemy head on during some of the most critical campaigns of WW2.


Steve Wall, Vice President Business Development for Lighthouse Interactive said: "We are very excited to be publishing WWII Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger throughout Europe. This is truly the most immersive World War 2 tank simulation available to date." He went on to say, "The development team has created something special with their attention to detail in all aspects of the game. The combination of gorgeous graphics, realistic physics models, interactive environments and deep and engrossing gameplay is sure to satisfy the most ardent gamer."

Dmitry Demenchoock Head of Games for IDDK said "Our developer G5 Software, ourselves, our volunteer testers and consultants from around the world have put a tremendous amount of effort and passion into creating WWII Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger. A game of this kind requires specialized publishing and promotion abilities from a publisher. Experience, professionalism and real passion for the game are what is required. This describes Lighthouse Interactive perfectly and is why we think that Lighthouse Interactive was the ideal choice for us and we are pleased to be working with them."

more here:

http://www.games-news.de/gotonews/?id=36167&url=%2F

VF-17_BOOM
11-26-2007, 12:04 PM
Chivas,That's great news about a Western publisher http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Maybe will see this one in the
store shelf soon!!!!


I hijacked a screenshot from SimHQ[because I can't figure out how to take my own]to show those who might be having trouble getting the tank rolling.

Looking at the 4 square boxes at the middle bottom of the page,working left to right...


-first box with the"II"in it shows gear,here the tank is in 2 gear.[gear key is -a-]
-second box with "0"shows speed,tank is not moving.
-3rd box shows"1228"this is rpms [activate witth-*- key]
and the 4th box I have no clue!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
-also engage re-engage brakes with the-T- key.
Hope ths helps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/t3401.jpg

leitmotiv
11-26-2007, 12:13 PM
Got it, Boom. I did a test shoot on an accommodating friendly T-34. At about 300 meters I couldn't penetrate the turret rear with 85mm arrowhead until the second shot---hmmm. Tried to de-turret it with ring shots at the same range with AP and arrowhead. No dice! HE drilled a small hole in the hull rear plate and left a monster smoke smudge on the metal.

HerrGraf
11-26-2007, 09:29 PM
When a few of you get done with the demos, could you be so kind as to post what you find. Especially if you can compare both games. I will be really interested aquiring one or the other when they are both released.

leitmotiv
11-26-2007, 10:01 PM
I can tell you from the demo mk1 of Steel Fury that it was the best WWII tank sim I've ever used, and I've used all the classics (Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite, Red Orc). In terms of modeling the peculiar problems of operating the early 1942 flat hex turret (commander has to command tank and shoot the main gun), it was without comparison. You get a work out. If you are commanding a platoon, your job load is incredible. Mk1 had some platoon control problems which may be fixed in the new demo. I'll buy each of these when they come out---I think the same design team did both (too bad they couldn't be merged---each has a different control system).

TheGozr
11-27-2007, 01:25 AM
Track ir ?

leitmotiv
11-27-2007, 02:37 AM
Nope, mouse---unless changed for production versions.

Vacillator
11-27-2007, 07:18 AM
Production version is said to have TIR support. Which will be great as I keep moving my head around and wondering why the view doesn't change http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for another question above, the fourth box on screen simply shows an exclamation mark (!) when the brake is on (activated by T as said above).

Vipez-
11-28-2007, 09:38 AM
About the european relase date:

http://pc.gamezone.com/news/11_26_07_07_00AM.htm

Scheduled to release in Q1 2008 on the PC.

leitmotiv
11-28-2007, 12:32 PM
Bring it on!

VF-17_BOOM
11-28-2007, 01:20 PM
******NEWS FLASH*********

GoGamer has it listed on thier site NOW!!!!says shipsin 24hrs!!!!Also supports TRKIR!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
LINK----

http://www.gogamer.com/WWII-Battle-Tanks--T-34-vs-Tiger...444808VVviewprod.htm (http://www.gogamer.com/WWII-Battle-Tanks--T-34-vs-Tiger--I--PC-Simulations_stcVVproductId29341304VVcatId444808VVv iewprod.htm)

leitmotiv
11-28-2007, 06:45 PM
NO SH-T! ORDERED, TANKS A LOT!

leitmotiv
11-29-2007, 06:05 PM
ALARM! Don't order---it's not due for release until Feb and Gogamer is going to keep my money---swine! DON'T ORDER!

Vipez-
11-30-2007, 07:54 AM
Hope you didn't loose your money.

Manos1
11-30-2007, 09:19 AM
Can you imagine guys that, one day, with our quad core CPUs we will be able to play Tiger vs T34 on the ground having the IL2FB guys doing air support above our heads?

I think the time is not far away...

I loved battle tank sims ever since Microprose's M1-Abraams on my Intel 286...

leitmotiv
11-30-2007, 10:32 AM
I am going to wreak havoc. They seem to assume I don't mind loaning them money for three months!

I wonder about the dream of a unified wargaming system, air/land/sea. It will take a pretty big organization to do it right. Oleg has always hinted that's for what he aims. If it could be done, it would be amazing.

Kurfurst__
11-30-2007, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I wonder about the dream of a unified wargaming system, air/land/sea. It will take a pretty big organization to do it right. Oleg has always hinted that's for what he aims. If it could be done, it would be amazing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://wwiionline.com/scripts/wwiionline/be_info.jsp

Free trial of 14 days.

leitmotiv
11-30-2007, 01:35 PM
Got the refund, all's forgiven.

Not too keen on the research and graphics in WWII ONLINE. The chief designer embarrassed himself by declaring there were no motorcycles in WWII. He was brutally corrected.

Hoatee
11-30-2007, 03:11 PM
WWIIonline is online only (pay to play as well) - no offline mode.

Still, it is indeed the only game out there that does make all three branches of the armed forces playable.

Kurfurst__
11-30-2007, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:

Not too keen on the research and graphics in WWII ONLINE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your loss. If TvT`s, SOWBOB`s DM shall be only half as refined as WW2OL`s, the gameplay just half as immersive, I`d be extremely happy about it. Nobody plays WW2OL for it`s graphics, that`s for true, but OTOH, I don`t even remember what the graphics looked like. I was too busy with something else.. ambushing the other guy, finding the best position, judging range, guessing the direction of their next attack etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The chief designer embarrassed himself by declaring there were no motorcycles in WWII. He was brutally corrected. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you just run into some of the special humor of the Rats. You might want to see a damage log...

VF-17_BOOM
12-21-2007, 03:25 PM
Just a quick update****A nice new video of the Tiger in action!!! well worth the download IMO,this is from a late beta,check it out!

http://www.schwerepanzerabteilung501.de/forum/index.php...msg334;boardseen#new (http://www.schwerepanzerabteilung501.de/forum/index.php?topic=61.msg334;boardseen#new)

Jagdgeschwader2
12-21-2007, 03:42 PM
Wow! I can't wait to take command of a Tiger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Thanks for the video link VF-17_Boom.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

tools4foolsA
12-21-2007, 11:17 PM
youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMYwNo0UfvE)

For those who played the demo so far:

- do terrain features slow down vehicles or is top speed always the same (no mater if you go uphill or through obstacles).
++++

VF-17_BOOM
12-22-2007, 11:49 AM
tools4fools,just to let you and others know the Youtube link you provided is not the vid I am refering to,that one is a least a year old.This is new from the developer useing the most recent beta

Tiger Combat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_***2MGyyE)

....and to answer your question...Yes the tanks are slowed down by going over uneven/ruff terain. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

leitmotiv
12-22-2007, 04:06 PM
Grrrrrrrreat stuff!


http://www.miltontrainworks.com/MTW/services/KCC/images/K_tony_thumbs_up.jpg

leitmotiv
12-22-2007, 04:23 PM
That video is incredible. If the sim plays like that, it will be immersion to the nth level. While it looks like Knights of the Sky is kaput, and BOB is eons away, it looks like 2008 will be a vintage year for WWII tank simulators with this and Steel Fury. So I exchange my wings for tracks!

JG52Uther
12-22-2007, 04:25 PM
Sorry if I missed it,is it going to be multiplayer as well? Ah never mind:

'WWII Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger' includes two single-player campaigns and two multiplayer modes (skirmish and team-play) for LAN and Internet play for up to 16 players.

TheGozr
12-22-2007, 04:48 PM
This looks cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i may want to get this one ..

Can we turn off external views http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ( birds view etc.. ) the video is good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

leitmotiv
12-22-2007, 05:05 PM
If it is like the other sim this company made, T-72 Balkans on Fire, you can switch on/off the bird's eye view, G.

TheGozr
12-22-2007, 06:59 PM
Cool Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Skalgrim
12-23-2007, 07:10 AM
tiger is famous for battle sure

when tiger came battle most wins tiger 1vs1

they have fear those killer

keep in the meed, battle stalingrat the german has only 100 tanks russia had 10 time more tanks

VF-17_BOOM
12-23-2007, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
That video is incredible. If the sim plays like that, it will be immersion to the nth level. While it looks like Knights of the Sky is kaput, and BOB is eons away, it looks like 2008 will be a vintage year for WWII tank simulators with this and Steel Fury. So I exchange my wings for tracks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree,Steel Fury looks absolutely fantastic[unfortunately for me the demo does not play well on my pc]I've been watching the player made videos on Youtube popping up and the battle scenes are incredible,also the battle sounds are very immersive!!

I've been having some fun in the T vs T demo,I switched out the T-34 for the Tiger!!!

ACTUNG TIGER!!!!!!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/SH_0000.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/SH_0001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/SH_0005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/SH_0004.jpg
The Germans were genius to figure out how to mount a AAA high volocity gun on a mobile platform,The 88m gun is incredible,a good German tank Commander could basicly stay out of range of the T-34 gun and pick them off one by one useing the 88m superior range!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/tiger_col1.jpg
Beware Comrade's,may your God be with you!!!

leitmotiv
12-23-2007, 10:28 AM
Against the T-34-76, the Tig I was killing out to 1200 meters. The unfortunate 76 had to close to nearly point-blank range and shoot the rear plate with arrowhead to kill the Tig. At Kursk, only the few "animal killers", Su-152s, could take down Tigers with ease.

joeap
12-23-2007, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skalgrim:
tiger is famous for battle sure

when tiger came battle most wins tiger 1vs1

they have fear those killer

keep in the meed, battle stalingrat the german has only 100 tanks russia had 10 time more tanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were no tigers at Stalingrad buddy.

Kurfurst__
12-23-2007, 11:03 AM
I`ve tried the T34 vs Tiger alpha demo.

GX are nice. Some very nice Sounds just mediocre. Voices are poor. 'Death animantions' are poor - bunkers suddenly disappear into rubble in a big smoke cloud. PaK guns turn from 'Healty PaK gun' state to 'Totally demolished Pak Gun with dead gunners' state.

Gameplay is very un-inspiring. Linear maps, you start at A, enemy is at B, just one kilometer away. Go to B, kill enemy. Duh.

AI as yet appears to be brain-dead. All it knows is to shoot things that come in front of it. Sometimes this means one stationary Pz IVs that shoot the other stationary Panzervier in the back, because it`s between you and him.. Bad sign.
Dumbo PaK gunners unable to turn their gun... infantrymen who shoots (seemingly lifeless save for a ghost-operated MG 42) MG bunker relentlessly from his Mosin rifle, only not killed by it because the MG bunker is too stupid to return fire with small arms. In return, the riflemen is too stupid to do anything else than shooting an earth-bunker with his rifle...

Physics and damage model - mixed feelings. I could run over and squash the PaK gun, that`s nice. Nice! Not much a visualisation of damage though, it feels very sterile, without any feedback on the type of damage done, though penetration holes appear on the texture. The way the tank moves on the ground is very unconvincing - tank suspension seems to be almost non-existant..

The 'Kharkov 1942' demo was in this respect far better done and much more realistic.
I`d vote for that latter. It was quite fun to get some feedback that my lil 34/76 died because it was peppered with tungsten-cored PzGr. 40 munition, and watch the AI infantry and tanks to continue fighting. It seemed realistic.. also, you have 3D, visible, animated gunner, driver models inside the tank in KHARKOV!

joeap
12-23-2007, 11:09 AM
Darn Kurfy, I've been looking forward to driving a Tiger for a year now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Yea well when i upgrade my box next year I'll be getting Steel Fury and looking hard at Tiger vs. T-34 to see if anything has been improved. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

leitmotiv
12-23-2007, 11:16 AM
I'll buy T-34 V TIG regardless. It is a demo after all. The first version of the KHARKOV demo was wonderfully detailed but not very inspiring, and the AI was insipid. Just running these monsters is a kick. I am more concerned about the apparent ineffectiveness of the Soviet 85mm AP vs T-34s at point-blank range (see my observations on page two).

Kurfurst__
12-23-2007, 12:16 PM
That one is pretty cool - STEEL FURY :

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=qpK7beeBGpI&feature=related

Jagdgeschwader2
12-23-2007, 12:32 PM
Holy cow! That Steel Fury video is incredible. I've got both of these tank sims on my list. I'm with leitmotiv I just want to run one of these monsters regardless. They will be a whole lot better than the tanks in Red Orchestra anyway.



http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s3.jpg

leitmotiv
12-23-2007, 01:06 PM
Right you are, JG2, compared to these, RED ORC is CANDYLAND! Being the commander/gunner in the T-34-76 is a huge challenge. Being a gunner is a challenge. I love it.

hsj41
12-23-2007, 01:13 PM
I seen pictures of that sim game t-34 vs tiger it looks great.Be great to sell here in USA i love real sim ww2 games.I play sh4, sh3, red orchestra, and il-2 1946, il-2 merged and waiting for battle of britain storm of war,[t-34 vs tiger].WOW would be great http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
12-23-2007, 01:28 PM
Why do some people judge tanks by formula compare my gun to his frontal armor and his gun to
my frontal armor, square hits only -- as 90% of the story? Armor doctrine of many countries
includes approach or positioning at an angle to the enemy, effective thickness increases.

In battle, maneuver is as important as fire. Tiger side armor is not so great, rear armor was
recorded penetrated and engine killed by a 37mm at 30 yards (M8 scout no less) in Europe.
When you have few compared to the other side and they do get flank shots then that's it.
The other super-tank limiter is your RoF and battleground visibility, numbers mean more then.

If that was not true then the name Patton would mean much less.

JSG72
12-23-2007, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Why do some people judge tanks by formula compare my gun to his frontal armor and his gun to
my frontal armor, square hits only -- as 90% of the story? Armor doctrine of many countries
includes approach or positioning at an angle to the enemy, effective thickness increases.

In battle, maneuver is as important as fire. Tiger side armor is not so great, rear armor was
recorded penetrated and engine killed by a 37mm at 30 yards (M8 scout no less) in Europe.
When you have few compared to the other side and they do get flank shots then that's it.
The other super-tank limiter is your RoF and battleground visibility, numbers mean more then.

If that was not true then the name Patton would mean much less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's just it you see. Much of the time in close combat. It was "Luck of the draw".

However when conditions were favourable.(IE. You made them favourable.)

You would know your weapons advantages. And would place/use them accordingly.

Pound for pund a T-34 wouldn't beat a Tiger.

But 4 T-34s Well.... Thats what happens. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fighterduck
12-23-2007, 01:57 PM
demo demo?!!!! where where?!!

i downloaded the steel fury one but i missed this one!

leitmotiv
12-23-2007, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Why do some people judge tanks by formula compare my gun to his frontal armor and his gun to
my frontal armor, square hits only -- as 90% of the story? Armor doctrine of many countries
includes approach or positioning at an angle to the enemy, effective thickness increases.

In battle, maneuver is as important as fire. Tiger side armor is not so great, rear armor was
recorded penetrated and engine killed by a 37mm at 30 yards (M8 scout no less) in Europe.
When you have few compared to the other side and they do get flank shots then that's it.
The other super-tank limiter is your RoF and battleground visibility, numbers mean more then.

If that was not true then the name Patton would mean much less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are thinking of the Panther. The Tiger I was well-nigh impervious to the Sov 76mm except from the rear at almost point-blank range. The best for which a T-34-76 could hope was a track hit or zapping the gunner's scope from the front or side. In 1943, the Tiger ruled the battlefield unless it was shot by a Su-152, or, later, a Su-85, or Kv-85. The 1944 T-34-85, and JS-2 evened the playing field, but the Tig I remained a beast.

leitmotiv
12-23-2007, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
demo demo?!!!! where where?!!

i downloaded the steel fury one but i missed this one! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to page one!!!!

VMF-214_HaVoK
12-23-2007, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by josephs1959:
Ooops! I didn't know this site turned out to be so strict? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No worries man. The only thing this forum is for anymore is Off topic threads. There just isnt much left to talk about regarding this sim and Olegs ready room is dead since he only post at 1C forums now. I see no problem with discussing other sims or games for that matter. UBI dont seem to mind nor care.

S!

hsj41
12-24-2007, 02:01 AM
Be great if all bugs be fixed in t-34 vs tiger then release it in usa that would be great. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fighterduck
12-24-2007, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fighterduck:
demo demo?!!!! where where?!!

i downloaded the steel fury one but i missed this one! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to page one!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh lol...was so excited i didnt saw it!

tools4foolsA
12-24-2007, 07:00 AM
Both games look interesting.

However I hope that you can throw tracks when going cutting trees and driving through buildings...

Armor Penetration and ballistics should be modeled realistic.

T-34 vs Tiger vid seems Tiger hitting well while driving...hmmmm...

Plus turret seems to rotate very fast - 1 min for 360 degree turn was fastest IIRC...but very smooth, zero gear to adjust speed with foot pedals; good gunners could adjust gun horizontal without fine adjusting by hand wheel - but in game sight just seems to jerk wildly left right, real fast...but then i'm not sure, might have been commanders binoculars view?

Tiger gets track damaged but is able to move on. Hope it's not always like that...


Will wait and see...

Steel Fury Kharkow looks more intersting to me so far.

******

Blutarski2004
12-24-2007, 07:08 AM
Some material germaine ;-] to the Tiger I, culled from "Germany's Tiger Tanks - Tiger I & Tiger II: Combat Tactics" by Thomas Jentz -

... The Tiger I could immediately open fire for effect at enemy tanks at ranges of up to 1200 meters. At ranges greater than 1200 meters, bracketing was to be employed with jumps of 200 or 400 meters, switching to fire for effect when [i.e. fall of shot] within 100 meters of a tank target. The expected performance from a Tiger I on a practice range was that the gunner would hit the target by the fourth round at ranges between 1200 and 2000 meters. In exceptional cases individual Tiger I could fire st stationary enemy tanks at ranges up to 2500 meters. Concentrated fire from the platoon could be used to engage stationary tanks out to 3000 meters. The same rules applied for firing against moving targets; immediate fire for effect up to 1200 meters, and bracketing to 2000 meters. But the Tiger I was not to fire at moving targets at ranges greater than 2000 meters. The expected performance of a Tiger I gunner on a practice range was one hit out of three rounds fired within 30 seconds at a tank travelling 20 kilometres per hour across the front at ranges from 800 to 1200 meters.

- - -

Someone mentioned curious/anomalous AP results displayed by the Soviet S53 85mm gun. Here are some comparative ESTIMATED performance figures taken from Jentz. Target is a Tiger II. Figures are maximum ranges in meters at which the described gun/ammunition could penetrate the given armor with target at a 30 degree inclination to the line of fire.


_____________________Turret Side________S/S Side________Hull Side

US 76mm M1A1
M62 AP_______________1100 m_____________900 m___________1800 m

Br 76mm 17-lbr
APCBC________________2600 m_____________2400 m__________2700 m

Sov S53 85mm
APBC/HE______________800 m______________500 m___________1600 m

Sov A19 122mm
APBC/HE______________1800 m_____________1400 m__________2900 m


Interesting, perplexing, counter-intuitive in certain respects. My best theory is that Soviet AP ammunition perhaps had shattering problems when striking face-hardened plates at significant angles of incidence.

M_Gunz
12-24-2007, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Why do some people judge tanks by formula compare my gun to his frontal armor and his gun to
my frontal armor, square hits only -- as 90% of the story? Armor doctrine of many countries
includes approach or positioning at an angle to the enemy, effective thickness increases.

In battle, maneuver is as important as fire. Tiger side armor is not so great, rear armor was
recorded penetrated and engine killed by a 37mm at 30 yards (M8 scout no less) in Europe.
When you have few compared to the other side and they do get flank shots then that's it.
The other super-tank limiter is your RoF and battleground visibility, numbers mean more then.

If that was not true then the name Patton would mean much less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are thinking of the Panther. The Tiger I was well-nigh impervious to the Sov 76mm except from the rear at almost point-blank range. The best for which a T-34-76 could hope was a track hit or zapping the gunner's scope from the front or side. In 1943, the Tiger ruled the battlefield unless it was shot by a Su-152, or, later, a Su-85, or Kv-85. The 1944 T-34-85, and JS-2 evened the playing field, but the Tig I remained a beast. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I'm not. Back in the 70's and beyond I mucked with loads of war simulation games, pored
through the notes, notes discussions and spent a bunch of time reading armor specs. Tiger I
side armor ain't all that. I got my data through the same sources as Avalon Hill, SPI, Gary
Grigsby (had his Tractics system in 1977, armor given to the mm at degrees slope by part
including turret ring and hatches) and armor books I picked up or got as presents.

What the 76 can't do is penetrate the side until relatively close if we're talking about the
longer barrel 76's of the later marks of T-34-76 and not the early ones. But then I don't
know what you call point-blank?

Another Tiger webpage (http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Penetration Table 02: Sherman A2, Sherman A4.
Tiger I vs. Sherman
(88 mm KwK) Sherman vs. Tiger I
(75 mm M3) Tiger I vs. Sherman A4
(88 mm KwK) Sherman A4 vs. Tiger I
(76 mm M1A1)
Front: Turret 1800 m 0 m 1800 m 700 m
Mantlet 200 m 0 m 200 m 100 m
DFP* 0 m 0 m 0 m 600 m
Nose 2100 m 0 m 2100 m 400 m
Side: Turret 3500 m 100 m 3500 m 1800 m
Superstructure 3500 m 100 m 3500 m 1800 m
Hull 3500 m 900 m 3500 m 3200 m
Rear: Turret 3500 m 100 m 3500 m 1800 m
Hull 3500 m 0 m 3500 m 1700 m
* DFP = Drivers Front Plate
Source : JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; ISBN 0-7643-0225-6 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the difference between 75mm M3 and 76mm M1A1 in side penetration range, the latter
gun is more like what T-34's had by 1942 and they NEVER had weak popguns like the M3 which
is what fits the square hit at point blank on SIDE armor, not even rear. Throw 21 Shermans
at a Tiger and the Tiger loses, I paraphrase a captured German tanker. ;^)

I've gone not just by the numbers but by grogs and what they had to say, it's not my say-so.

Russian armor gunsight optics limited their range even when they had the big guns.

Maybe you think of the VIb, the King Tiger? Or first serial T-34's?

On the bright side, wow they made so many!

I've seen figures on how many PzII's broke down just getting to the kickoff for the Battle
of France and those were marathon runners compared to Tiger I. Need to make more just to
get more than a few to the fight, but once they're on station and maintained they are major
if not THE major players.

Still, a few heavies only carries so much AP and only has so much combined RoF. Once the
smoke starts flying and the hatches button it's no simple matter to knock off a whole wave
of attackers before they overrun your position even without a lot of cover or concealment.

KIMURA
12-24-2007, 08:31 AM
An squadmate of min is a gametester of the alpha version of that game. There's a new ingame video he had capture. Have a look at it, it worth.
Download (http://www.schwerepanzerabteilung501.de/Daten/tiger_in_combat1.zip)

Blutarski2004
12-24-2007, 11:32 AM
AP performance of Soviet 76.2mm L/30.5 and L/41.5 tank guns, as determined by wartime German "WaPruef" tests. Angle of incidence = 30 degrees in all cases -


Weapon__________100___500__1000__1500__2000 meters

7.62cm L/30.5_____72____66____58____51

7.62cm L/41.5_____82____75____67____60____54


It's pretty clear that the early L/30.5 was, barring a lucky hit, ineffective at normal battle ranges against the Tiger I from any direction of approach. The later L/41.5 gun was considerably better, but still quite inadequate.

leitmotiv
12-24-2007, 12:13 PM
Without getting into an inane quarrel, the point of the matter is that the Tiger I could destroy the 1942 and 1943 T-34 production models out to 1000 meters or more, and no T-34 with 1941 standard 76.2 could destroy a Tiger except by coming perilously close to it, which they were not able to do, contrary to Soviet mythology.

VF-17_BOOM
12-24-2007, 12:36 PM
leitmotiv,I concur,of the instances I have read about the Tiger 1 lost the engagement becuase the tank crew lost its advantadge of range to target and/or was pinned down in inner city fighting,lost manuvuerbility and was overrun by superior numbers of enemy units,The Pnz VI simply could not load the 88m fast enough to cope with the multiple salvos hitting it.

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

tools4foolsA
12-24-2007, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">,I concur,of the instances I have read about the Tiger 1 lost the engagement </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We always can find an instance which suits to what we like...
In Carious book there is a description of a night fight with T-34's at very close range and the Tigers still kicked a$$...

37mm rear penetration of Tiger mentioned earlier must have gone through weak spot (exhaust) in rear plate as it is 82mm thick as are the sides.
Weakest overall armour is lower hull of side armor, 82mm at no slope at all AFAIR.

More important than single incidents is 'the norm' which is much harder to determine.

Even large numbers of 76mm armed T-34's can have serious problems to outmanouver opposing tanks (be it Tigers or PzIV's) due to problems of communications and spotting... It doesn't help if you are behind a hill and just need to turn 90 degrees to come into that flank attack if nobody can tell you. It doesn't help either that the tank is virtually blind once butooned up and even more so once the commander is manning the gun...

Just imagine if you get online game with T-34/76 - no team speak, buttoned up much less visibility, and it actually would take time to open turret hatch, climb down to gun, man gun, etc.

You would be at serious disadvantage against opponents with one humabn player more in tank, able to communicate with platoon and being able to spot much better than your team...

Germans welded on cupolas to captured t-34/76's to improve commanders vision, btw.

The T-35/85 addressed those problems and it's more powerful gun was capable of dealing with the Tigers (albeit not reaching out as far as the Tigers).

It's pretty good that they choose T-34/85 vs Tiger I, otherwise it would be rather unbalanced for game play...

Similar would be KV I vs short barreled Pz III and IV early eastern front not much balance.

Myself I still like those uneven match-ups as it is much more challenging task and much more satisfying if you actually manage to win or even just get it to a draw.

+++++

VF-17_BOOM
12-24-2007, 01:41 PM
tools,did you bother to read the rest of my statement?"becuase the tank crew lost its advantadge of range to target and/or was pinned down in inner city fighting,lost manuvuerbility and was overrun by superior numbers of enemy units,The Pnz VI simply could not load the 88m fast enough to cope with the multiple salvos hitting it."[instances]

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blutarski2004
12-24-2007, 01:55 PM
Slightly OT, but has anyone here played "Barbarrossa to Berlin"? If so, what is the general opinion of it?

VF-17_BOOM
12-24-2007, 01:59 PM
Sorry never heard of this one,strategy game?

tools4foolsA
12-24-2007, 02:06 PM
Yes, I did indeed.

You are talking about SOME instance you have read about.
Immobile Tigers,, Tigers in unsuitable terrain (doesn't has to be city necceasrily), Tigers overrun by sheer numbers.

Sure all that happened. So what's the point?

Very much the same there were instances of Tigers in close combat and still winning the fight, city combat and still winning, attacked by big numbers and shooting them to pieces...

So what do those instances show?
Nada. Nothing at all...

That's why I said we have to look for the NORM. Makes not much sense to pick on certain instances that indeed happened.
Much more important is the 'big picture', the real advantages/disadvantages of each tank as a weapons system. It is this that should be modeled well.
And in that sense 'leitmotivs' statement is more the norm:
A 76mm armed T34 will have a rough day going up against Tiger I.
And it's more than only gun and armour protection.
The only advantage is numbers (but how will this be represented in game?) and speed really for T-34/76.
Everything else goes to the Tiger I.
Armour, gun, communication, spotting, command, weapons system...
And most likely T34/76 will be in for a rough day therefore, despites the instances (that sure did happen) you mentioned.

Merry X-mas!

*****

VF-17_BOOM
12-24-2007, 02:12 PM
And in that sense 'leitmotivs' statement is more the norm:
A 76mm armed T34 will have a rough day going up against Tiger I.
And it's more than only gun and armour protection.

I concur.as stated.

Merry Christmas

Kurfurst__
12-24-2007, 02:13 PM
One tactic that would always work for a Tiger I is to find a nice hull down position with a good field of fire. That one makes it an extremely difficult target to cope with, as the Tiger turrets frontal armor protection was extremely heavy - and far in excess in practice that of reported by publications.

Until the 85mm gun became commonplace, the hull and superstructure was also pretty safe, but with the 85mm around, the 100mm hull armor could be penetrated with good propability under 500m; theoretically it was endangerd up to 1000m, but you seldom get a perfect-angle shot on the tank body; a hull down position was thus essential to shield the - relative to the turret - weakly protected hull. In that the Tiger I is resembles the tactical profile of the post-war Leopard 1.

tools4foolsA
12-24-2007, 02:28 PM
CM Barbarossa to Berlin?

Tactical war game, absolutely great interms of game play.
We-go turn system (each player gives orders to his troops and tanks, computer combines two moves and produces a one minute video of unchangeable resulting action). Watch action, give orders and then watch next movie again.
Sounds maybe boring but assure you it isn't...

Very well modeled armor and penetration values plus lots of other stuff.

For example there are command delays. A radio equipped tank will react much faster than one without, a complicated order takes longer until tank starts implementing it than easy task.
The you will have those battles where you have few expensive (units are measured in points for accquiring them) Tigers would go up against masses of T-34/76. As German player you will have those real fast T-34's swarming all over the place - however as Russian player you would face command delays of a minute or more if changing orders while german tanks react within seconds...uhh, no easy task...you will see how difficult it is to coordinate you attacks...

And yes, the 'instances' can happen in the game. Had it all.
Had a 8,8 knocking out a KV I and two T-34/76 in early war within about 60 seconds from 900m and never even been postively spotted by those tanks.
Or was sneaking up T-70 with 45mm gun to Panthers flank, green crew, 100m distance. Missed two shots...just before 3 one would get fired crack Panther blasts little T-70 with first shot into CM heaven...
Or had a Jagdpanther myself behind a crest in ambush position, would just need to advance a few meters to a hull down position overlooking a key position as soon as enemy crosses position. At beginning of game a arty barrage goes of quite a bit away from Jagdpanther but a stray round falls close by, immobilizes Jagdpanther...turning my best AT asset useless...

Great game. You need it all, need to know your weapons and men, what they are capable of and what not, need good tactics and combined arms, coordination, and sometimes some luck on top of it...

If they can get such a good balance in one of those two tanks sims as CM got then it will be a winner for me!
******

tools4foolsA
12-24-2007, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I concur.as stated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you would approve of the instances you mentioned afterwards as opposed to leitmotivs statements...

My mistake, sorry.

Getting late here in Bangkok...

Kurfy, additional to hull down Tiger I could (becuase of good side armour, you don't wann do this with a Panther...)and was often positioned with an angle toward enemy making dead on hits even less likely and increasing protection in a massive way. Kind of ad-hoc sloped armour..

See the Tigerfibel:
sausage time... (http://www.esatclear.ie/%7Egodot/84.jpg)

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Blutarski2004
12-24-2007, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tools4foolsA:
and was often positioned with an angle toward enemy making dead on hits even less likely and increasing protection in a massive way. Kind of ad-hoc sloped armour..
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..... A technique also employed in N Africa.

Blutarski2004
12-24-2007, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tools4foolsA:
CM Barbarossa to Berlin?

Tactical war game, absolutely great interms of game play.
We-go turn system (each player gives orders to his troops and tanks, computer combines two moves and produces a one minute video of unchangeable resulting action). Watch action, give orders and then watch next movie again.
Sounds maybe boring but assure you it isn't...

Very well modeled armor and penetration values plus lots of other stuff.

For example there are command delays. A radio equipped tank will react much faster than one without, a complicated order takes longer until tank starts implementing it than easy task.
The you will have those battles where you have few expensive (units are measured in points for accquiring them) Tigers would go up against masses of T-34/76. As German player you will have those real fast T-34's swarming all over the place - however as Russian player you would face command delays of a minute or more if changing orders while german tanks react within seconds...uhh, no easy task...you will see how difficult it is to coordinate you attacks...

And yes, the 'instances' can happen in the game. Had it all.
Had a 8,8 knocking out a KV I and two T-34/76 in early war within about 60 seconds from 900m and never even been postively spotted by those tanks.
Or was sneaking up T-70 with 45mm gun to Panthers flank, green crew, 100m distance. Missed two shots...just before 3 one would get fired crack Panther blasts little T-70 with first shot into CM heaven...
Or had a Jagdpanther myself behind a crest in ambush position, would just need to advance a few meters to a hull down position overlooking a key position as soon as enemy crosses position. At beginning of game a arty barrage goes of quite a bit away from Jagdpanther but a stray round falls close by, immobilizes Jagdpanther...turning my best AT asset useless...

Great game. You need it all, need to know your weapons and men, what they are capable of and what not, need good tactics and combined arms, coordination, and sometimes some luck on top of it...

If they can get such a good balance in one of those two tanks sims as CM got then it will be a winner for me!
****** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Thanks T4F. I was a bit concerned about lack of sophistication because it is a pretty old game. But your opinion agrees with many other I have received from other people. I'm going to give it a try.

BTW, is it possible to build underground fortresses like Battery Maxim Gorky?

tools4foolsA
12-25-2007, 01:34 AM
Not really.

You got buildings above the ground plus pillboxes and stuff, so in the editor you sure could kind of simulate the above ground of a fortress. You somehow can move troops underground too, they put in some sort of sewer movement for Stalingrad, but not visually modeled, never used it really myself.

Very sophisitcated in terms of game play and historical accuracy, armor and gun penetration values. I have tried ToW since then but didn't like it, it's plain silly after coming from CM in my opinion. Way too much gun fodder and shoot 'em up after playing CM for a long time.

M_Gunz
12-25-2007, 05:07 AM
Since T-34-76 could not have killed Tiger I except by getting impossibly close then it must
never have happened.

tools4foolsA
12-26-2007, 12:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Since T-34-76 could not have killed Tiger I except by getting impossibly close then it must
never have happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
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