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Udidtoo
07-19-2004, 02:12 PM
Just started up a new P-39 campaign last night and since many of the missions have you lugging along one of those 250K bombs it started me thinking.

I'm guessing now but its like maybe only 30% of the time you actually ever get a flight to the target area with bombs in tow. The rest of the 70% they are jettisoned to engage enemy planes.

My question is in real life was this acceptable to high command. With policies like "Not One Step Back" in place its not hard to imagine that failure to deliver the pay load on target was not something you would want to have to report. It makes me wonder if reason and common sense was used or if the commissars had "serious" discussions about wasting Uncle Joe's bombs. I can just hear someone being told they were cowards and should have let the escort fighters tackle the interceptors.

If anyone has any good links on that subject
it would be very appreciated.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

Udidtoo
07-19-2004, 02:12 PM
Just started up a new P-39 campaign last night and since many of the missions have you lugging along one of those 250K bombs it started me thinking.

I'm guessing now but its like maybe only 30% of the time you actually ever get a flight to the target area with bombs in tow. The rest of the 70% they are jettisoned to engage enemy planes.

My question is in real life was this acceptable to high command. With policies like "Not One Step Back" in place its not hard to imagine that failure to deliver the pay load on target was not something you would want to have to report. It makes me wonder if reason and common sense was used or if the commissars had "serious" discussions about wasting Uncle Joe's bombs. I can just hear someone being told they were cowards and should have let the escort fighters tackle the interceptors.

If anyone has any good links on that subject
it would be very appreciated.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

M.R.Maiornikov
07-19-2004, 03:00 PM
Usually during the great patriotic war the situation with pilots wasn't so rough as with infantry and other armed forces.I've read somewhere that a pilot could take his retirement after only 25 or 30 sorties (usually few survived to that date).So my quess is that they could report something like that.Remember that the "no step back " policy was adopted for ground forces to prevent the retreat (althaugh 80% of soldiers were willing to fight(antony beaver'books))

------------------------------------------------------------
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Aaron_GT
07-19-2004, 03:33 PM
When doing a big simulation of a battle at Kirovograd (Camberly staff college - about 100 participants in multiple rooms) we were advised to learn about the Marxist-Lenninist doctrines of war beforehand if we were on the Soviet teams. Initiative is actually one of the praised principles. As to whether this was the case in real life is another matter, of course.

[In the game itself passing the test and becoming a Party member was helpful (I had a flag with an inset picture of Lenin for our room, next to the list of the Principles we put on the blackboard. It helped) . A friend commanding an army that rather unluckily bore the brunt of the German counterattack, and then in the confusion massive friendly fire was not so lucky. His character received a visit from the NKVD in the middle of the night. The way the umpires interpreted the Principles was that if you modified orders on the quiet and won a victory as a result, you were in the clear. If you varied orders and messed up you were for the chop.]

CzechTexan
07-19-2004, 04:11 PM
I'm not Russian but I have read somewhere that some cowardly Russian pilots were punished for not following orders. There were probably isolated cases where there was punishment but I suspect that it wasn't the rule for the whole air force.


***
80% of all German casualties in WW2 were on the Eastern Front.
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crazyivan1970
07-19-2004, 04:28 PM
Completing of the mission was a must. Cowards could be punished badly , up to death penalty. Brining back ordinance, especially bombs and RS was prohibited for all planes with external load. I can give you 100s of links, but they all in russian. If you can get hands on Swatika in gunsight or Attack of aircobras that will give you some ideas of what was going down in VVS.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Usually during the great patriotic war the situation with pilots wasn't so rough as with infantry and other armed forces.I've read somewhere that a pilot could take his retirement after only 25 or 30 sorties (usually few survived to that date).So my quess is that they could report something like that.Remember that the "no step back " policy was adopted for ground forces to prevent the retreat (althaugh 80% of soldiers were willing to fight(antony beaver'books))
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just FYI, Soviet pilots few all day,
Fighter pilots from 3 to 7 missions
Sturmo pilots from 2 to 5
Bombers up to 2 missions

The only way retirement wa possible is...
when you dead
when you wounded and suspended as an active pilot
when you promoted to the point where flying is not neccessary.

Other then that, you flying every day or as much as needed until service is over.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

LEXX_Luthor
07-19-2004, 04:39 PM
If FB planes' next waypoint is Normfly, they they will drop bombs and act as fighters, including R~10, IL~2, and other non~fighter types. They will drop bombs and offensively attack enemy planes, including innocent enemy bombers.

If FB planes' next waypoint is a ground attack waypoint, they will keep bombs and ignore any attacks against them, including Fw~190s and other fighter types.

So the behavior of one Extreme of the other is dependent on the mission builder or 3rd Party mission generator.


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Udidtoo
07-19-2004, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Completing of the mission was a must. Cowards could be punished badly , up to death penalty. Brining back ordinance, especially bombs and RS was prohibited for all planes with external load. I can give you 100s of links, but they all in russian. If you can get hands on Swatika in gunsight or Attack of aircobras that will give you some ideas of what was going down in VVS.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Usually during the great patriotic war the situation with pilots wasn't so rough as with infantry and other armed forces.I've read somewhere that a pilot could take his retirement after only 25 or 30 sorties (usually few survived to that date).So my quess is that they could report something like that.Remember that the "no step back " policy was adopted for ground forces to prevent the retreat (althaugh 80% of soldiers were willing to fight(antony beaver'books))
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just FYI, Soviet pilots few all day,
Fighter pilots from 3 to 7 missions
Sturmo pilots from 2 to 5
Bombers up to 2 missions

The only way retirement wa possible is...
when you dead
when you wounded and suspended as an active pilot
when you promoted to the point where flying is not neccessary.

Other then that, you flying every day or as much as needed until service is over.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeez, up to 7, no pressure eh? and CzechTexan, I was leaning more towards the perception of cowardice than the actuallity of it. I don't question even a little the courage of men willing to fly I-16's against F-2's and F-4's in real life.

Ivans point about bringing back ordanance puts another picture in my head..... After a long and fruitless search, 3 P-39's still have their bombs having failed to find the tanks they were sent in search of.

"Lead to flight, we are,low on fuel, time to return to base."

"But commrade commander, we still have yet to find our targets"

"Well No. 2, speak of the devil and up he jumps, look!! my 2:00! PZK's"

"But commander, those are large rocks!"

"Nyet No.2, look closer, definatly PZK's"

"Commarade Commander, No.3 here....I see them"

after bombing run.

"Well done lads, mission report will indicate that damage was inconclusve after attack, recommend sending Yaks with rockets for follow up"


BTW, the links would be very cool except for my Russian being limited to Da and Nyet and Dasvedanya, if thats how its even spelled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

M.R.Maiornikov
07-19-2004, 07:21 PM
Ivan i found the info about 25 to 30 missions.In a book by victor suvorov "Day M".I'm not sure it's the right number but it's somethung like that and after that they could leave the airforce ( sorry for not giving the details as it's been a long time since i read that book)

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov