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PowerEaz
05-15-2007, 02:40 PM
Hi Oleg, in your next combat sim release please add full support for M$ XBox360 controller as used
in the latest MS Flight Simulator. Its an ideal controller for a combat sim but at the moment things like the rudder controls and only one analog stick can be used. Is there a way to add a patch for the IL-2 1946 release to give greater controller support.

PowerEaz
05-15-2007, 02:40 PM
Hi Oleg, in your next combat sim release please add full support for M$ XBox360 controller as used
in the latest MS Flight Simulator. Its an ideal controller for a combat sim but at the moment things like the rudder controls and only one analog stick can be used. Is there a way to add a patch for the IL-2 1946 release to give greater controller support.

PowerEaz
05-15-2007, 02:56 PM
I meant to say the rudder contols cannot be used which is a shame.

No601_prangster
05-15-2007, 03:44 PM
Joystik...check
Throttle...check
Pedals...check
TrackIR...check
Ketboard...check

...no I think I've got all the controlers I'm going to need thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

FE_pilot
05-15-2007, 04:37 PM
Why would you want to use the 360 controller with a flight sim? That to me doesn't make sense.

XyZspineZyX
05-15-2007, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PowerEaz:
Hi Oleg, in your next combat sim release please add full support for M$ XBox360 controller as used
in the latest MS Flight Simulator. Its an ideal controller for a combat sim but at the moment things like the rudder controls and only one analog stick can be used. Is there a way to add a patch for the IL-2 1946 release to give greater controller support. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi PowerEaz

I do not think this will happen. I disagree strongly, as does, I feel, the developer, that a gamepad has the "ideal" configuration for a flight simulation of any type

MS, naturally, uses support for it's own products

The extremely short throw on every control present on a gamepad is a very limiting factor in a flight sim. The player-pilot has a need for all the fidelity he can get in controls, due to the lack of phyical inputs such as G forces.

A gamepad's sticks are simply too short; they give too coarse a movement compared to a dedicated joystick. It's just so; it is a function of the "throw" of the stick, and this is because of the length of the stick. My flight control stick is 7" tall. My XboX360 controller sticks are not even 1" tall. Moving my flight stick's position 10mm left produces a much more manageable and gentle input than moving the same gamepad stick 10mm left. It can't be; you have moved the gamepad stick more off-center, and it's a coarse adjustment compared to the longer dedicated stick, and the result is better control, and easier control. The same goes for rudder pedals: how can a 2" throw on a fingertip rudder compare with the 8" throw of a real set of rudder pedals? And on a dedicated throttle, you have all sorts of hands On Throttle And Stick (HOTAS) elements as well. The gamepad is a poor shadow of these things

In addition, flightsticks, yokes, throttles and rudder pedals simulate the controls really used in aircraft. The developer likes the historical aspect, and goes to lengths to make it that way. Gamepad support is not a priority

BSS_Sniper
05-15-2007, 06:48 PM
I knew some of you were using a gamepad! There's no way you could stir a stick for some of the arcadish moves I've seen in here. lol :P

Bearcat99
05-15-2007, 08:06 PM
Try this: PPJOY .83 (http://drn.digitalriver.com/product.php%5Bid%5D75176%5BSiteID%5Dsoftwaregeek)

What is PPJOY (http://www.geocities.com/deonvdw/Docs/PPJoyIntro.htm)?

URlNSTlNKT
05-15-2007, 11:37 PM
We'd rather need Linux support than a M$ gamepad... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Lodovik
05-16-2007, 12:19 AM
Dunno, a pad could be just the thing for all those fiddly bits controls that you don't need all the time during flight. Eg. bomb sight controls, some engine management stuff etc.
Then again, I use the Nostromo gaming pad for those things, so no need to go micro$oft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

kptltU-1312
05-16-2007, 02:06 AM
hi guys

mate i reckon its a great idea. i live a nomadic lifestyle due to work. i have a laptop and HDD. i cannot hope to cart around a joystick with me. only recently thought of using a 'playstation' type controller. theory being 1 stick controls view, other controls aircraft. rudders, throttle trigger etc are the other buttons.

i hope it is supported somehow. not everyone has a computer room.

cheers, good hunting.

Woodstock_69
05-16-2007, 03:21 AM
Please Oleg, don't release this in a patch! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

onebox33
05-16-2007, 03:56 AM
i agree about the problems with short stick but if you want it, why don't you buy a usb gamepad?

VW-IceFire
05-16-2007, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FE_pilot:
Why would you want to use the 360 controller with a flight sim? That to me doesn't make sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe not...doesn't make much practical sense to me either. But it would be a way of enticing or appeasing those that know only the gamepad rather than the "old school" joysticks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PowerEaz
05-16-2007, 03:52 PM
I expected a certain amount of antagonism to using a game pad from seing posts on other forums but its missguided. The M$ XBox360 gamepad is currently the best on the market and its really comfortable to use. Having all your controls immediately to hand is ideal for a combat sim. Its also less embarrasing than having a phallic looking object sitting next to your PC. I'm not convinced by the sensitivity issue, it works fine with me and seems no worse than the old joystick I used a few years back. I think its a case of try it and see. If your not convinced try it on Flight Sim X I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

PowerEaz
05-16-2007, 04:07 PM
I should have said most controls at hand and excuse the spelling. On the bottom the the XBox 360 controller there are two analogue (?) buttons which in Flight Sim X is used to finely control the rudder movement, and the right analogue stick controls the view, while the left controls your elevators & ailrons. The "Hat" type switch is used fro trimming I'd probably use it for propellor pitch control etc. Ands theres plenty of other buttons for your weapons, radiator flps etc all on a light controller allowing you to sit back and enjoy the action rather than being pinioned to your desk.

Korolov1986
05-16-2007, 04:19 PM
Have you tried rebinding controls for the sticks/buttons on the gamepad in IL2?

Or is the controller one of the old 15 pin gameport types?

It seems to me that if it works in MSFS, it should work the same in IL2.

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2007, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PowerEaz:
I expected a certain amount of antagonism to using a game pad from seing posts on other forums but its missguided. The M$ XBox360 gamepad is currently the best on the market and its really comfortable to use. Having all your controls immediately to hand is ideal for a combat sim. Its also less embarrasing than having a phallic looking object sitting next to your PC. I'm not convinced by the sensitivity issue, it works fine with me and seems no worse than the old joystick I used a few years back. I think its a case of try it and see. If your not convinced try it on Flight Sim X I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi PowerEaz

Not sure what you mean by antagonism. I don;t see any here

Your point about having all controls to hand is great; however, I do not use a game pad at all, and I gaurantee you that I have more functions on my Hands on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS) setup

I think perhaps you feel that a joystick is just that; and your phallus comments, well, those issues are yours and your alone. I see no reason to try to degrade people with your "Phallic object" comments

Some people don't understand what a HOTAS does. Let me explain.

I have currently 135 controls mapped to my HOTAS and keyboard

Of those, I commonly use 93 of those controls

Of those 93 controls I commonly use, fully 35 of them are on my HOTAS- and I use only One single mode of programmability with it, it supports three, which are toggle selectable without taking your hand off the throttle. If I wanted to, I could program all 93 of my common controls on the HOTAS alone, and never touch the keyboard

How many functions does your gamepad support? On my Stick I have:
two triggers
two 8 way hat switches
four buttons
in addition to the joystick function

On my Throttle, I have in addition to the throttle function itself:

2 rotary switches
a mini joystick
rudder rocker
one four way switch
2 buttons
1 three way mode switch
1 auxiliary toggle (which I don't use but adds even more programability without taking my hand off the throttle)

On my XboX360 control, I see:


three sticks
three buttons under the sticks (press the stick)
four index finger buttons
four colored buttons for my right index finger
back button
start button
XboX360 button

On that score alone, without even using my Auxiliary function or my other two Mode functions, my HOTAS does much more than your gamepad

you have 26 options (I count a stick as 4)

I have 41 in use right now, just on my HOTAS, without using Mode 2 or Mode 3, or my Auxiliary function at all

I'm sorry but my stick and throttle do more than your gamepad...without even mentioning the functions I could additionally program it for, or my keyboard, and I do not yet have dedicated rudder pedals


The gamepad may be great for certain aspects of gaming, and even in a simulation- as noted, if somebody is travelling, it is the right way to go. But for a dedicated control, your gamepad comes up woefully short compared to my (old!) HOTAS

As far as fine controls go, it is completely absurd to say that the control of a 7" or taller stick, or of full rudder pedals, is not better than that of a 1" tall stick. It is simple geometry. I don't need to defend it; it is plainly observable fact. Imagine a steering wheel 24" in diameter, and anouther one 5" in diameter. You can make finer control inputs with the larger wheel because of the radius: the further away from center, the more you need to move to produce any result

The same holds true on a control stick: your stick throw describes an arc. the longer the arc, the more you need to move the stick to acheive full movement. This means more ease of fine adjustment. It's simply fact

You like your gamepad and that's fine. But there probably won't be 'official' gamepad support in the sim. Better and more accurate controls have been out for many years, even if you don't know very much about them.

Since I have both a good quality HOTAS and an XboX360 gamepad sitting here side by side, I can tell you without doubt that the control offered by the HOTAS is not only more complete in terms of functionality, but it also makes much easier and more accurate control. I'm sorry you don't feel that way, but I wonder very much if you have ever used a HOTAS, or even seen one

PowerEaz
05-16-2007, 04:35 PM
That sounds like a sophisticated joystick. There's one error in your XBox360 controller description, two of the "index finger" buttons are not buttons, they allow (can't think of the term) an analogue reaponse; they're used for rudder control in Sim X, and can't be accessed in IL-2. I'm not into building a "cockpit" replica, I just one an accessible controller. Another problem is that I'm left-handed and many joysticks are designed for right-hand use.

PowerEaz
05-16-2007, 04:49 PM
That last sentance is not something you really want to broadcast, is you know what I mean ;-)

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2007, 04:51 PM
With two variable input 'triggers', you still don't come close to the HOTAS, though

The HOTAS is sophisticated, but they have been around for a long time. However, the HOTAS is not for a 'cockpit replica'. Very few people actually have one. I certainly don't, and most HOTAS users don't either. A 'replica cockpit' would have a 3 foot long control column mounted on a plinth set on the floor and between the virtual pilot's knees, a throttle on what's called a "planier" (basically a side shelf), and dedicated, full rudder pedals.

The HOTAS sits on your desktop. Mine is actually on my keyboard tray when I use my flight sims. It's no bigger than two joysticks

The bases are just over 6" in length and width

Here's an independent review of the X45, which is the one I use, and is very much yesterday's news in the flight sim world. As you can see, the review is from 2001

http://www.joy-stick.net/reviews/joysticks/x45.htm

A cockpit replica, it isn't. But still, the HOTAS setup is now the norm for flight simmers. I recommend it highly. You'll be a better virtual pilot, just about gauranteed

VW-IceFire
05-16-2007, 05:26 PM
PowerEaz...you may want to make a post in the Community Help room and see if anyone else has done what you're doing. I remember seeing a few threads a while back...might want to try a search and if nothing comes up maybe ask. Someone might have figured out a way to do what you're asking for already.

PowerEaz
05-16-2007, 05:47 PM
Thanks for the info, it looks very good and a remarkable price. If I was more dedicated to the gaming genera it would definately be worth a look but I don't have the space. I currently use a 17" portable with an nVidia 6800 card. It works well with IL-2 1946, but it may struggle with Maddox's new up and coming flight sim, I'll have to wait and see. I still would like to be able to fully configure the XBox360 controller. I'd imagine MS will make this easy for developers by adding support to DirectX.

PowerEaz
05-16-2007, 06:05 PM
Thanks IceFire, I could be mistaken but I think this is a driver issue, the controller has some unique features. Its strange that MS has not issued a configurable utility. I think it maybe a little arrogance on M$'s part in that they want developers to support the controller within their software; I'm sure they would counter this by saying it makes it easier for the user, and I wouldn't argue with that.

Bearcat99
05-16-2007, 10:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Try this: PPJOY .83 (http://drn.digitalriver.com/product.php%5Bid%5D75176%5BSiteID%5Dsoftwaregeek)

What is PPJOY (http://www.geocities.com/deonvdw/Docs/PPJoyIntro.htm)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bearcat99
05-18-2007, 01:22 PM
Look at this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/5701071065).

NonWonderDog
05-22-2007, 01:41 PM
The special XBox 360 controller support Microsoft wants programmers to code in isn't actually part of DirectX, it's a new API called XInput. It allows the game to speak directly to the controller, instead of going through the generic DirectInput API. Instead of asking for the position of combined axis Z, for instance, the game asks for the position of each trigger on the controller. The game can use the triggers or anything else however it wants, as buttons or axes, and with whatever deadzone deemed necessary. It's basically the exact same input code used in XBox 360 games.

You don't really need XInput support (currently only present in FSX and Madden '07...) to get the XBox 360 controller to work with games, though. The Microsoft driver has horrible configuration support for DirectInput games, but the XBCD driver works very well with the the 360 controller. Installing it will mean your controller is no longer recognized as an XInput device until you switch back to Microsoft drivers, mind.

Go here (http://xbcd360guide.50webs.com/) to find out how to set it up. You should be able to find some collection of axes that work in IL2. (I haven't bothered myself, because I have an X52.) If you've installed the new version of the Microsoft on screen display nonsense bundled with the controller driver you might have minor problems with the XBCD driver, though. The on screen display isn't disabled by the XBCD driver, it's just confused enough to steal focus away from Direct3D apps. You can kill it in the task manager without problems.

Just make sure to set the rumble force to zero or turn force feedback off in the sim. The XBCD driver doesn't disable rumble support in DirectInput mode like the Microsoft driver, but the same signals for force feedback are used for rumble. You'll get really annoying shaking whenever you move the flight controls, is what I'm saying.

(I suppose there's probably a way to hack this so you only have the impact shake, but I haven't tried. I'm on another computer until the rest of my upgrade parts arrive, but if IL2 uses the normal force feedback definitions you should be able to find an editor for them. You might just have to delete a file or two.)



I don't think you'll be able to use the right analog stick for view, but this reminds me of the old TrackIR "support" way back when... maybe one of the old workaround programs will let you do it? I don't know any more than that.

PowerEaz
05-24-2007, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the above post. It's a while since I did any programming.
'Pinacale Game Profiler' works with the XBox360 controller driver and IL-2! Its sadly a $19.95 download but there's a 30 day trial period for anyone interested. It actually works very well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PowerEaz
05-24-2007, 05:01 PM
Here's the site for Pinnacles software:
http://www.pinnaclegameprofiler.com/

Scen
05-25-2007, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PowerEaz:
I expected a certain amount of antagonism to using a game pad from seing posts on other forums but its missguided. The M$ XBox360 gamepad is currently the best on the market and its really comfortable to use. Having all your controls immediately to hand is ideal for a combat sim. Its also less embarrasing than having a phallic looking object sitting next to your PC. I'm not convinced by the sensitivity issue, it works fine with me and seems no worse than the old joystick I used a few years back. I think its a case of try it and see. If your not convinced try it on Flight Sim X I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you will be surprised at what people are using for Joysticks these days. You think your game pad has everything you need? I think you need to do a little research in terms of what's out there before making such a request.

In terms of precision your game pad is a 40 dollar item and I would like to see what it's programming capabilities are and how it would handle real complex sims like Falcon4.

Sorry dude but the game pad is not the tool of choice around these parts.

Good luck with that....

Scen
05-25-2007, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PowerEaz:
I should have said most controls at hand and excuse the spelling. On the bottom the the XBox 360 controller there are two analogue (?) buttons which in Flight Sim X is used to finely control the rudder movement, and the right analogue stick controls the view, while the left controls your elevators & ailrons. The "Hat" type switch is used fro trimming I'd probably use it for propellor pitch control etc. Ands theres plenty of other buttons for your weapons, radiator flps etc all on a light controller allowing you to sit back and enjoy the action rather than being pinioned to your desk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually want to be pinned to the desk as if it where a cockpit. If I wanted to play a video game I would go sit on the couch.

I think you need to look into www.naturalpoint.com (http://www.naturalpoint.com) and check out the Tracker IR. Watch a few movies then get back to me with the idea of sitting on the couch.

Blood_Splat
05-27-2007, 11:41 AM
A controller has to be the worse way to simulate flight.

PowerEaz
06-14-2007, 02:12 PM
Thanks Scen interesting device. It also raises an interesting point in that first person shoot-em-ups the gun automatically follows your line of sight, it might be interesting to be able to look around while having your gun trained in another direction, but that's a separate debate.
On another point, The accuracy of the MS 360 controller is more than sufficient, even gamepad technology has moved on, and you have the keyboard for other non-analogue controls.

Scen
06-14-2007, 04:27 PM
While I can agree they've come a long way they are no where near what you need for some simulations.

Why would you want to use a gamepad for a "Simulation" in the first place. You don't use a gamepad to fly airplanes in real life. It's like using a mouse and keyboard for a racing simulation why not have the wheel throttle and peddle combo?

I'm sure you can make it work I think you will be missing quite a bit of functionality compared to some of the HOTAS capabilities.

Gamepads are great for fighting games and some limited joystick movement and that's about it.

I bet if you where to get into IL2 a bit more and fly against real players you would quickly realize just how much of a disadvantage you are with a gamepad.

Just the viewing system alone would overwhelm your game pad let a lone adding in complex engine management. It's the wrong tool plain and simple.