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sixmillion10
06-22-2007, 08:43 PM
I am trying to learn the BnZ tecnique with the bf-109. I set up a quick mission in the QMB. I fly the BF-109 F4 against the Spitfire V. I thought the 109 was superior to the spit in the climb....but when I try this I can't outclimb the spit as he always catches me and shoots me down....I don't know what I am doing wrong. Should I try a different version of the 109 ? I set up this mission as a head on even altitude fight. When we merge the spit turns and I start a climbing turn but for some reason the spit then starts to climb after me and catches me. Please help.

sixmillion10
06-22-2007, 08:43 PM
I am trying to learn the BnZ tecnique with the bf-109. I set up a quick mission in the QMB. I fly the BF-109 F4 against the Spitfire V. I thought the 109 was superior to the spit in the climb....but when I try this I can't outclimb the spit as he always catches me and shoots me down....I don't know what I am doing wrong. Should I try a different version of the 109 ? I set up this mission as a head on even altitude fight. When we merge the spit turns and I start a climbing turn but for some reason the spit then starts to climb after me and catches me. Please help.

stathem
06-23-2007, 01:08 AM
This one:-
http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/Fw190-3.jpg

Brain32
06-23-2007, 05:36 AM
109 is not a BnZ plane in this game, it's modelled without any kind of elevator, and you kinda need that for BnZ.

neural_dream
06-23-2007, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
109 is not a BnZ plane in this game, it's modelled without any kind of elevator, and you kinda need that for BnZ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
109 is an overall very good plane so it can also be very good at BnZ, providing you have alt to pull it back up. It doesn't have to be a FW to BnZ. It's modelled with bad elevator at very high speeds, because it had a bad elevator at very high speeds.

Brain32
06-23-2007, 06:28 AM
Hehehehe yes, it's just that P11c is better for BnZ but you are correct you can do it with the 109, especially if the guy you are attacking is completely blind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yes the elevator wasn't as good as on other planes but the il2 situation is ridiculous.

mynameisroland
06-23-2007, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
This one:-
http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/Fw190-3.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mind if I use that image as a sig Stathem?

stathem
06-23-2007, 07:02 AM
Roland, check PM. It is a nice pic, isn't it.

stathem
06-23-2007, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Hehehehe yes, it's just that P11c is better for BnZ but you are correct you can do it with the 109, especially if the guy you are attacking is completely blind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yes the elevator wasn't as good as on other planes but the il2 situation is ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has to be said;

The thing is, anyone flying a 109 with an X-52 or simliar set-up does not have the concrete elevator problem if they have the elevator trim mapped to a wheel or slider, since it moves the horiz stab and can give excellent pull outs at all speeds.

And it's neither a cheat nor an exploit - it's historically correct-ish.

Xiolablu3
06-23-2007, 07:32 AM
The Bf109F4 is good for energy fighting vs its 1941 contemporaries, and the speed it fights at, its elevator is still good.

One of my favourite matchups is 109F4 vs SPitfire Vb in 1941, the Bf109 is just made for energy fighting the Spitfire in the vertical.

Rather than using the later 109's for B&Z, I would use the Fw190 instead.

The FW190A can outclass the Spitfire mark V, and although things get tough during 1943-early '44 when the Spitfire IX/La5FN appears the Dora puts the FW190 on the top rung again in late '44.


FOr practice set up QMB with you 2000m above 2 enemy planes and try and keep the advantage while attacking. Try these planes..

You are in the first plane in the matchup :-

Me109F4 vs SPitfire Vb 1941
Fw190A4 vs SPitfire Vb 1941
Fw190A6 vs SPitfire Vb 1943
Tempest vs Fw190A8
Fw190D vs Spitfire IXc

Bf109E vs i16 might be a good one too.

Xiolablu3
06-23-2007, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sixmillion10:
I am trying to learn the BnZ tecnique with the bf-109. I set up a quick mission in the QMB. I fly the BF-109 F4 against the Spitfire V. I thought the 109 was superior to the spit in the climb....but when I try this I can't outclimb the spit as he always catches me and shoots me down....I don't know what I am doing wrong. Should I try a different version of the 109 ? I set up this mission as a head on even altitude fight. When we merge the spit turns and I start a climbing turn but for some reason the spit then starts to climb after me and catches me. Please help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The key word here is 'zoom'.

ALthough the 109F4 is better than the SPitfire Vb in the climb, they are close enough that you still have to be very careful.

Dont try and slowly climb away in any situation where he is close behind, always dive a little (or dive hard and fast if hes within gun range), use you better top speed to extend and gain more speed, THEN slowly climb maintaining your distance and speed.

If the Spitfire is using even a slight zoom climb versus your powered climb he will easily catch you.

Try and stay 'zooming' at all times if posssible. You want to be zooming down fast and hard, taking a shot and then zooming back up. If you do THIS right then the Spitfire can not hope to catch you.

SLow climbs are very risky in ANY plane matchup since you are such an easy target (a diving plane is MUCH harder to hit, and the climb differences between these WW2 planes is not great, especially between 2 such good climbers as the Spitfire and Bf109.

You do understand what a 'zoom climb' is, yes?

VW-IceFire
06-23-2007, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sixmillion10:
I am trying to learn the BnZ tecnique with the bf-109. I set up a quick mission in the QMB. I fly the BF-109 F4 against the Spitfire V. I thought the 109 was superior to the spit in the climb....but when I try this I can't outclimb the spit as he always catches me and shoots me down....I don't know what I am doing wrong. Should I try a different version of the 109 ? I set up this mission as a head on even altitude fight. When we merge the spit turns and I start a climbing turn but for some reason the spit then starts to climb after me and catches me. Please help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not the 109...it'll be your technique in approaching the Spitfires. The 109F-4 is a very good fighter with high performance for its year. But that doesn't mean that it can't be beaten by a Spitfire V. The Spit V is a very good fighter, worthy of allot of respect, so you'll have to pay attention to it. Its climb is very good and not that far behind the 109s. At different speeds and angles the Spitfire V will sometimes be better. If you move yourself up to the Bf109G-2 you'll probably have the greater advantage.

I don't know exactly what your doing...you'd have to post a track file to show us...but you need to make sure you start with a good height advantage (at least 1000m or more), hit the Spitfires, extend (flat out instead of climbing) first, then slowly climb away. If you have allot of extra speed then you can risk a more violent zoom but remember that the zoom runs out and often a great zoom angle for getting allot of altitude fast is not a very good climb angle for sustaining the maximum climb of your fighter.

Its all a numbers game. Keep your speed up whenever possible and think about the angles and how, if you were the Spitfire pilot, would you cut the angles to get a shot in before the 109 got away.

Pretty much all of the 109s are boom and zoom machines. They require a bit of a different technique than the FW190 which is better at high speed. I tend to use one of the German Ace's techniques (I can't remember the name) where I throttle way back in the boom stage so that my speed doesn't climb to a range where the 109s controls get heavy. Then at the right moment as I'm zooming past I firewall the throttle again and get maximum power in the zoom stage. Sometimes a bit of rudder to create some extra drag is helpful with this too.

I'm not an expert at the 109...the 190 is my much more preferred aircraft...especially for boom and zoom techniques but the 109 offers a very nice balance of options including getting into a very tight turn while the FW190 is more extreme to one end where you are a little more limited in what techniques you do but have a greater ability within that narrow band of options.

M_Gunz
06-23-2007, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am trying to learn the BnZ tecnique with the bf-109. I set up a quick mission in the QMB. I fly the BF-109 F4 against the Spitfire V. I thought the 109 was superior to the spit in the climb....but when I try this I can't outclimb the spit as he always catches me and shoots me down....I don't know what I am doing wrong. Should I try a different version of the 109 ? I set up this mission as a head on even altitude fight. When we merge the spit turns and I start a climbing turn but for some reason the spit then starts to climb after me and catches me. Please help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much speed are you losing between dive and zoom climb? You should be going up much faster
than he was flying level. 50kph is not enough difference.

Best thing is make track record and watch it carefully later.

Also dive below the other and shoot from below, your rise will not require big lift up after
shoot, you can begin the climb behind him -- see if he can follow that!

I read from Hartmann that he had his exit paths all planned out ahead to always exit at a
wide angle and behind the target, he made attacks from the side and only turned onto the
target at the last.

If you attack from 6 position and exit along his 12 (nose) and then pull up after passing,
you will by speed fly way out in front before going up and you will be easy target.

If you at least attack crossing his path then he has to turn and come back towards you, not
just point up a little and shoot.

sixmillion10
06-23-2007, 08:37 AM
Guys the info in all of your post are very good and I appreciate it but I think I am getting a little confused....Some people are saying that the 109 is not a good BnZ and others are stating it is ? I usually set up my QMB missions as head on equal altitude. Should I be starting up at a higher altitude ? If the 109 is not a good BnZ then what tactic should I use against the spit V....should I turn with him ?
I have yet to try the FW 190 as I love the 109. Do anybody have any good tracks with how to fight in the 109 ?

PF_Coastie
06-23-2007, 08:37 AM
Just use shallower angles when "Booming". You have to start out with a better E state than the enemy of course. Its more of a "slashing" attack than a BnZ attack.

PF_Coastie
06-23-2007, 08:41 AM
Also, you have to remember that AI cheat. You will not win in a sustained climb because they will not over heat. Start climbing hard as soon as you spawn, then level out when you get closer to gain speed. When he flys under you, roll over and make your first attack, then maintain your speed and zoom climb above him. Rinse, repeat.

Irish_Rogues
06-23-2007, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I usually set up my QMB missions as head on equal altitude. Should I be starting up at a higher altitude ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not a setup for Z&B as you need altitude advantage to start.

LStarosta
06-23-2007, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Hehehehe yes, it's just that P11c is better for BnZ but you are correct you can do it with the 109, especially if the guy you are attacking is completely blind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yes the elevator wasn't as good as on other planes but the il2 situation is ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
P.11 has a fixed pitch propeller. If you overspeed the prop, you fry the engine.

The 109 isn't porked, go make up another problem to cry about.

Brain32
06-23-2007, 09:34 AM
With P11c you can make corrections at 300MPH, with ME109 you can go feck yourself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
But that's fine and historically correct, no 109 ever shot anything down anyway. They were obsolete by 1936...

Xiolablu3
06-23-2007, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sixmillion10:
Guys the info in all of your post are very good and I appreciate it but I think I am getting a little confused....Some people are saying that the 109 is not a good BnZ and others are stating it is ? I usually set up my QMB missions as head on equal altitude. Should I be starting up at a higher altitude ? If the 109 is not a good BnZ then what tactic should I use against the spit V....should I turn with him ?
I have yet to try the FW 190 as I love the 109. Do anybody have any good tracks with how to fight in the 109 ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ANY plane can boom and Zoom, its not limited to one type.

I dont like the later 109's for boom and zoom because they have aheavy elevator and lose a lot of their manouvraibilty. Here I am talking about the 109G10/G14/K4. The G6A/S is quite good and nimble, but the G6 vanilla is not so great vs the Spitfire IX.

The 109E,109F4,109G2 are all great planes in their correct year. Their elevator can get a little stiff as you zoom down at over 600 kph, but as long as you are used to it, it shouldnt bother you.

The 109 CAN be a good B&Zer if you like the plane and if you are good in it. Just like any plane can really

Maybe apart from the useless Russian planes that break up at 600kph, (La5/Yak9/Lagg etc) you canot B&Z properly in these, they just fall apart. (include the MOsquito here too)

However it doesnt matter becaue no La5/Yak9/Lagg/Mosquito ever shot down another plane anyway... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
06-24-2007, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sixmillion10:
Guys the info in all of your post are very good and I appreciate it but I think I am getting a little confused....Some people are saying that the 109 is not a good BnZ and others are stating it is ? I usually set up my QMB missions as head on equal altitude. Should I be starting up at a higher altitude ? If the 109 is not a good BnZ then what tactic should I use against the spit V....should I turn with him ?
I have yet to try the FW 190 as I love the 109. Do anybody have any good tracks with how to fight in the 109 ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has differing levels of ability and I think imagination factors in to this as well. Some people use the 109 mostly as a horizontal turn fighter. It can be made to work but I don't prefer to do that. Its boom and zoom for me and its very good at it. But there is a certain mystique about the 109 as well (much like the Mustang) where its abilities and expectations are often not the same for some people. So cut through some of that and focus on the technique and tactics.

Honestly I would stay with the early war versions first and work your way up. Maybe try a Bf109F-4 versus Yak-1 and work your way up to the Spitfires.

Brain32
06-24-2007, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Maybe apart from the useless Russian planes that break up at 600kph, (La5/Yak9/Lagg etc) you canot B&Z properly in these, they just fall apart. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The limit is more like 700kmh, with some later models going up to 800kmh, besides at 600kmh those planes still retain full elevator control, in a late ME109 at 450kmh you feel like you are standing mid air watching an airshow, other than that all those planes are much, much better angle/turn fighters than a ME109. But hey, it's OK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

On a serious note, only a very strange minded person can recommend late ME109's for BnZ style attack, as they are practically useless for that even at pretty mediocre speeds, like 500kmh. OK there's always the trim thingy, but if you have trim on a keyboard like me - forget the ME109 completely, or get ready to laugh a lot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

neural_dream
06-24-2007, 06:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Some people use the 109 mostly as a horizontal turn fighter. It can be made to work but I don't prefer to do that. Its boom and zoom for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too. I see it as a very good BnZ which can dogfight if I make a mistake and have to. And don't forget that it reaches BnZ altitude much faster than the majority of the others.

mandrill7
06-24-2007, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Maybe apart from the useless Russian planes that break up at 600kph, (La5/Yak9/Lagg etc) you canot B&Z properly in these, they just fall apart. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The limit is more like 700kmh, with some later models going up to 800kmh, besides at 600kmh those planes still retain full elevator control, in a late ME109 at 450kmh you feel like you are standing mid air watching an airshow, other than that all those planes are much, much better angle/turn fighters than a ME109. But hey, it's OK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately for VVS fans, it's nowhere near 700 KPH unless I'm doing something foolishly wrong when I dive my a/c. I just finished a LaGG3-66 campaign and the only way that little bugger would dive 700 or even 800 KPH is without its wings.

Xiolablu3
06-24-2007, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mandrill7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Maybe apart from the useless Russian planes that break up at 600kph, (La5/Yak9/Lagg etc) you canot B&Z properly in these, they just fall apart. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The limit is more like 700kmh, with some later models going up to 800kmh, besides at 600kmh those planes still retain full elevator control, in a late ME109 at 450kmh you feel like you are standing mid air watching an airshow, other than that all those planes are much, much better angle/turn fighters than a ME109. But hey, it's OK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately for VVS fans, it's nowhere near 700 KPH unless I'm doing something foolishly wrong when I dive my a/c. I just finished a LaGG3-66 campaign and the only way that little bugger would dive 700 or even 800 KPH is without its wings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah for the Russian planes in 1941-42 its just over 600kph, they fall apart.

I use vertical energy fighting in a Bf109F4 all the time, the elevator is only a very minor hindrance.

Its the best fighter available in 1941 by far. Only the SPitfire Vb/Vc comes close and the 109F4 is much better than that.

Brain32
06-24-2007, 07:25 AM
Well geeez I do not know for every specific vvs plane, I know La5 series can get to 690-700, Yak9U up to 800, etc. The thing is if you attack a plane that is crusing at 400-500kmh, 600kmh will be enough for a safe exit, heck even less will be enough(especially that early in the war) for an exit because the attacked plane has to evade. Point being you can control your dive to less than 700kmh when attacking and you will be able to make some aiming corrections, in a 109G/K I would have to dive at "insane speed" of 380-400kmh to do that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
06-24-2007, 07:26 AM
Just a question or two about the Channel Battles please? It might be relevant.

1) What form of attack did the FW's use on the Spits in 1942?

2) How does that quote go about the arrival of the FW's and how long the fights went?

3) What should I expect was the standard 109F-4 attack method on Spit VB then?

Anyone?

Polyperhon
06-24-2007, 09:12 AM
The Bf 109F-4 is the best Bf 109 for the beginner but this doesn't necessary mean that is the best BnZ version.Talking about BnZ in a Bf 109 went a bit too far I think after I kept on "flying" it a lot in the past years.A spit or a LaGG-3 can turn tighter than a Bf 109 but they bleed velocity much faster than the Bf 109 and they are more sluggish in acceleration.In other words, if you know what you 're doing, you can mix up with good results.The mistake that you probably make is that you don't climb vertical enough. If you want to take full advantage of the Bf 109s strengths,you have to use immelman a lot.
The fact you have all your guns in the nose calls for a short, accurate burst behind the enemy plane.In that case the 20mm motorcannon and the small 7,9 machine guns are more than enough for the job but using BnZ is difficult to go exactly behind the tail of your opponent,regardless to what I read sometimes inside here.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif ...In that case is better to use wing guns (not available in the F-4 version), because you need to destroy your target as fast as possible (still, someone told me that because I use them, I am not a serious Bf 109 "pilot" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)
If you want to practice in BnZ, try the P-39...makes more sense.

anarchy52
06-24-2007, 09:24 AM
1) Extreme elevator ineffectiveness of the 109 (compared to other planes in the game) is the developer's choice, not a historical fact.

Looks like it's based on anecdotal evidence from british test of an incorrectly trimmed 109 flown by Spit pilots which were used to oversensitive Spitfire elevator.

109 did have stiffer then the average elevator at high speed (probably more due to shorter stick then any aerodynamical reason), but not frozen stiff at 450 kph like portrayed in game.

2) I don't think attacks were made at 700kph. Or turns at 7G.

If you could change the code of the game and introduce pilot stamina as a variable, 109, even the crippled ones we have in the game would be competitive simply because pilot endurance would be the limit.

To put it simply: what's the advantage if your aircraft can pull 9G, mine 7G when our pilots faint at 5G.

DKoor
06-24-2007, 09:28 AM
Elevator on 109 is cr@ppy on all variants there is no "good" 109 variant in this regard.

But the thing is...... 109 can be put to a good use on high speed pretty much if one slows the fight, or if enemy doesn't see you.
Otherwise almost every allied type has advantage over 109 in high speed maneuvers. Especially true for late war engagements where western front allied planes have all, without exception, better elevator authority by a large margin.

That is if you want to bnz with 109.

I don't like to bnz only.
I like to stalk people with 109..... meaning I'll approach at high speed then slow down considerably parking on victims six.... gun him down from close range then rocket back up.
All allied types will have big problems with 109 on 6 and close range except Spitfire whose option is flat turn.... but still that doesn't mean that he can escape tho as 109 can try an 'angle'.

Difference from stalking and bnzing is that in bnz you can firewall the throttle as much as you can all the way - the more the better (all the way up to structure breaking speeds).... stalking doesn't work that way.

Bad thing about 109 when flying this way is a great energy loss..... thus you become vulnerable until you regain alt again.

neural_dream
06-24-2007, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Well geeez I do not know for every specific vvs plane, I know La5 series can get to 690-700, Yak9U up to 800, etc. ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For disputes like this I made my aircraft guide:

I153 - before 600
I16 - around 600
MiG3 - about 700
TB3 - almost immediately
I185 - 800
LaGG3 - a bit over 700
Yak1, Yak7 - 700
La7 - before 800 and La5 before 750

IL2s before 650. Some even before 600.

Xiolablu3
06-24-2007, 09:37 AM
Yep, I admit I was exaggerating, just like Brain32 was exaggeratin about 450kph having the elevator lock up on the Bf109.

I just tried it on the Bf109F4 and got up to 550kph with no problem pulling out/aiming at all, It was 600kph before it started to feel stiff enough to ruin your flying.

The 109F4 is a dream of a plane. I could take on Buddah, Allah and the Holy Jesus CHrist int hat plane with no problems.

DKoor
06-24-2007, 09:42 AM
http://i16.tinypic.com/61z3atj.jpg

Brain32
06-24-2007, 09:51 AM
First the 109 series does not stop with ME109F4 unlike the new history inventors would like us to believe, and while elevator on earlier models indeed is not THAT bad it's still worse than any other plane at speeds that this shouldn't be the case. Try the late G or K model, it's comedy gold. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DKoor
06-24-2007, 10:03 AM
I posted that chart because I wonder..... why bother to make a new model when old one is as good or better, I dare to say better and most players here would chose F4 over G6 flat.
Bomber interception?
Sure.... F4 can be fitted with underwing gondolas..... with some modifications I believe that Mk108 would be a possible option too.
It can carry 250kg bomb too.

So. Why bother to make a worse plane, and what is more important non-competitive for its time (as widely indicated on the boards) escapes me.

M_Gunz
06-24-2007, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
The Bf 109F-4 is the best Bf 109 for the beginner but this doesn't necessary mean that is the best BnZ version. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that one year to the next planes can be compared 1:1. As the war progressed,
speeds raised so you had to move faster to get the same advantage as months went by in WWII.

How was the speed of the F-4 vs Spit VB compared to K-4 vs Spit XIV or high boost IX?

In 1942 Cross Channel, the 109's hit and ran and then the FW's stayed.
So I wonder if expecting big different in the same match is realistic?

109 had its own niche in the combat environment and worked well when used suitably.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The fact you have all your guns in the nose calls for a short, accurate burst behind the enemy plane.In that case the 20mm motorcannon and the small 7,9 machine guns are more than enough for the job but using BnZ is difficult to go exactly behind the tail of your opponent,regardless to what I read sometimes inside here.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn to shoot deflection. There is usually armor behind the seat but not on sides, top or
bottom. Only behind has enough to stop bullets with few exceptions at all. You can't aim
for the motor and cockpit from his six except through tail and seat. To defeat those you
have to be very close. If you are BOOM speed coming in, you have to break soon inside that
range, at only 100kph difference you are closing at ~28 m/s. Who BnZ's with so little an
advantage in speed?

If you hit him from an angle then you can exit at an even bigger angle, he won't be getting
on your trail for long enough for you at superior speed can be out of range even without
worrying about stick force and using trim.

Polyperhon
06-24-2007, 10:46 AM
my friend,


I have a difficulty using deflection shot from the cockpit view of the Bf 109, possibly a combination of slow muzzle velocities and and the known off-center positioning of the gunsight.In the out of the cockpit view is another story, but I avoid to fight like this.Are you sure that you can shoot accurately a deflection shot inside the cockpit? I might making a mistake myself.I tend to add wing guns, and it usually works.
Now about the elevators on the game, I think myself too that in the later models are more stiff than they should...there was no in the modification in the real plane that can justify it.Still, the difference is not so bad to ruin the experience and the K-4 is a formidable weapon if you know what to do.

Brain32
06-24-2007, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Still, the difference is not so bad to ruin the experience and the K-4 is a formidable weapon if you know what to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes this is why you can hear; "Yaaay there are a few 109's in the air, last one to find them get's no free points", on Red comms. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Please, 109K4 is one of the worst pieces of cr@p I ever had a misfortune to fly in any kind of WW2 simulation attempt, calling them "flyable" is almost false advertising.
Just look how long has passed since Hayate Ace posted, either he lost an interest to cr@p on the 109 because the effort of shooting them down matches collecting coins in Super Mario, or he got a job from Oleg to "fix" the 109 FM so he is busy for the next patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

DKoor
06-24-2007, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
my friend,


I have a difficulty using deflection shot from the cockpit view of the Bf 109, possibly a combination of slow muzzle velocities and and the known off-center positioning of the gunsight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's a dream come true compared to the 190.... luckily for 190, it has a lot of guns so chance for hit is greater.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are you sure that you can shoot accurately a deflection shot inside the cockpit? I might making a mistake myself.I tend to add wing guns, and it usually works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>109 is good ac in this regard once you get a feeling for it.

http://www.speedyshare.com/913687552.html

Here is FB V1.00 (quite old) track... player 109G6AS Vs 4xLA-7 on ace level almost pure energy fight.
Back then you could defeat them easily this way.

stathem
06-24-2007, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
1) Extreme elevator ineffectiveness of the 109 (compared to other planes in the game) is the developer's choice, not a historical fact.

Looks like it's based on anecdotal evidence from british test of an incorrectly trimmed 109 flown by Spit pilots which were used to oversensitive Spitfire elevator.

109 did have stiffer then the average elevator at high speed (probably more due to shorter stick then any aerodynamical reason), but not frozen stiff at 450 kph like portrayed in game.

2) I don't think attacks were made at 700kph. Or turns at 7G. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
If you could change the code of the game and introduce pilot stamina as a variable, 109, even the crippled ones we have in the game would be competitive simply because pilot endurance would be the limit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you could change the code of the game and introduce pilot stamina as a variable...

the tight cockpitted, un-pilot-trimmable, heavy elevatored and aileroned 109 would suffer more than most.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
To put it simply: what's the advantage if your aircraft can pull 9G, mine 7G when our pilots faint at 5G. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to look in your Difficulty settings and turn Blackouts and Redouts on...

M_Gunz
06-24-2007, 03:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
my friend,


I have a difficulty using deflection shot from the cockpit view of the Bf 109, possibly a combination of slow muzzle velocities and and the known off-center positioning of the gunsight.In the out of the cockpit view is another story, but I avoid to fight like this.Are you sure that you can shoot accurately a deflection shot inside the cockpit? I might making a mistake myself.I tend to add wing guns, and it usually works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that if a person can get a feel for the timing, how long to how far, and where the
shots are going then they can get close and walk the fire in. I review my gunnery with
tracks and playback until I can relate sight picture to results and tighten up my gunnery
(or just knock some rust off).

At the ranges we have, scale 1/10th km ranges, the bullets take some time to arrive on
target that is also moving. The timing of the shot has a real pause, you see how far the
target moves in that much time and aim ahead by that far. It's the same kind of way you
get a feel for throwing a ball around or shooting arrows. Not precise as machine but good
to very good, quick and easy. Playing Red Baron there is an iron cross and circle but I
just looked over the nose to where I knew the shots would go and it worked fine to good
range for that game.

I find it's hard to fly as clean while in the offset to right gunsight views than in centered
view.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now about the elevators on the game, I think myself too that in the later models are more stiff than they should...there was no in the modification in the real plane that can justify it.Still, the difference is not so bad to ruin the experience and the K-4 is a formidable weapon if you know what to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is because equal limited strength is given to all pilots in all planes. You stick only
controls the effort of the pilot of the plane you fly. Your stick is brain telling arm how
much strength to apply to stick, not where to position stick.

So you want to think about how much nose down trim you add in dive or even fast level flight.
It helps keep nose down but it fights you in pull-up or turn. If you trim for slower level
speed and then fly the dive with stick held progressively forward, you'll see better response.

You can also assign a key or button to nose up trim and hold it about 3/4 sec just before you
start your maneuver. It will continue to relieve stick pressure slowly more and more for at
least 3 seconds later. It ain't nirvana but it's something at all.

mandrill7
06-24-2007, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:
For disputes like this I made my aircraft guide:

I153 - before 600
I16 - around 600
MiG3 - about 700
TB3 - almost immediately
I185 - 800
LaGG3 - a bit over 700
Yak1, Yak7 - 700
La7 - before 800 and La5 before 750

IL2s before 650. Some even before 600. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. Maybe the difference is that I was probably trying to weave or turn in my LaGG as I was diving and chasing 110's, thus putting extra stress on my airframe.