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Bearcat99
07-27-2006, 06:42 PM
As many of you know I have a son now 9 and we are very close. He loves FB and COD. We have watched all the war movies from SPR to WWS... and anything in between. My wife objects to this... she feels that I shouldnt be exposing him to such onscreen violence.... My opinion though is
A) That it is violence in a context i.e. war, which is history.
and
B) He is a manchild. I want him to have no illusions about the horrors of war so that should he chose the life of a soldier or be involuntarily drafted into it, he will have no illusions about what he is getting into. I also want to offset the desensitizing that some games have, and plus since I know he is growing up and out.. and I wont be able to shield him from a lot of stuff but so much, I want him to understand as well as he can some of the consequences of violence, war, and politics...... that it is NOT like in the game.. that it makes NO SENSE sometimes and that there are no gaurantees of glory and fame on the battlefield.

I dont let him watch things that have gratuitious violence for it's own sake. The "Hills Have Eyes" "Scream" "Jason" "Freddie" or even the Tarrantino stuff.... I shy away from for him.. but things like "Gladiator", "BoB"... of course classics like "All's Quiet On The Wester Front" and such.. we have watched.... some several times.

It has been written that in the abundance of many counselors there is wisdom. What do yoyu guys think? As parents.... am I off base?

Bearcat99
07-27-2006, 06:42 PM
As many of you know I have a son now 9 and we are very close. He loves FB and COD. We have watched all the war movies from SPR to WWS... and anything in between. My wife objects to this... she feels that I shouldnt be exposing him to such onscreen violence.... My opinion though is
A) That it is violence in a context i.e. war, which is history.
and
B) He is a manchild. I want him to have no illusions about the horrors of war so that should he chose the life of a soldier or be involuntarily drafted into it, he will have no illusions about what he is getting into. I also want to offset the desensitizing that some games have, and plus since I know he is growing up and out.. and I wont be able to shield him from a lot of stuff but so much, I want him to understand as well as he can some of the consequences of violence, war, and politics...... that it is NOT like in the game.. that it makes NO SENSE sometimes and that there are no gaurantees of glory and fame on the battlefield.

I dont let him watch things that have gratuitious violence for it's own sake. The "Hills Have Eyes" "Scream" "Jason" "Freddie" or even the Tarrantino stuff.... I shy away from for him.. but things like "Gladiator", "BoB"... of course classics like "All's Quiet On The Wester Front" and such.. we have watched.... some several times.

It has been written that in the abundance of many counselors there is wisdom. What do yoyu guys think? As parents.... am I off base?

Mackane1
07-27-2006, 06:46 PM
This thread could get hairy...

My thought is that it's your call as parents...doesn't really matter what we think. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bearcat99
07-27-2006, 06:49 PM
Thanks Mac.... make no mistake though.. I will do what I will do regardless... but I am just curious about how some others feel about the issue. If he were 5 or 6 it would be different.. but he is 9... and he is a mature 9 for the most part. He has a very unique outlook and insight into a lot of the world. We talk politics, current events.... history, the only thing we dont touch on too much at the moment is girls.... LOL.. he is kind of shy about that one at the moment.

Mackane1
07-27-2006, 06:55 PM
I grew up watching war movies and RAT PATROL and Batman and Robin beatin' the **** outta' the bad guys....and I don't think I turned out to be such a bad guy....anyway my wife and kid love me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

berg417448
07-27-2006, 06:56 PM
My brother and his wife tried to keep their son away from the gratuitous violence as much as possible. But in the end he was exposed to it by friends, schoolmates, etc. You can't be with him all the time.

I think that the best you can do is try to talk to him...explain that it isn't like on TV or in the movies. Just be available to answer his questions honestly and he'll turn out just fine.

danjama
07-27-2006, 06:58 PM
I think you are doing it right BC! Although games can sometimes glorify the horrors of the battlefield, so you have to be careful there.

As for what Berg says above me, he brings back a memory of me and a couple of friends grabbing toy guns and "patrolling" the local park for enemy action http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Oh, to be young....

LStarosta
07-27-2006, 07:03 PM
I say, expose the lad to pornography early so that he won't be shocked with what he sees in hike school.

Jambock_Dolfo
07-27-2006, 07:04 PM
Just make sure you talk to him about what you are watching, and make clear YOUR oppinion on the matter. You are the model of his behaviour after all, no problems watching movies as long as he understands your reaction to them.

just my 2c.

-dolfo

Bearcat99
07-27-2006, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jambock_Dolfo:
Just make sure you talk to him about what you are watching, and make clear YOUR oppinion on the matter. You are the model of his behaviour after all, no problems watching movies as long as he understands your reaction to them.

just my 2c.

-dolfo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly..... we discuss some movies scene by scene....

Enforcer572005
07-27-2006, 07:49 PM
yer 100% right....nothing wrong with war movies, history etc. Lots better than most of the garbage so many more kids are exposed to (like some of that god awful music with questionable lyrics-sheeesh).

Nothing wrong with exposure to a warrior mentality (Im a bit of Klingon here)...teaches respect, discipline, honor, self reliance, responsibility.......will serve him well to learn such things later in life.

My dad took me to theatres to see Patton, tora, battle of the bulge, BoB, bridge at Ramagen, and the Blue Max among others.

Later When i was a teenager, he (at my begging and pleading) even took me to see Dirty Harry and Bullit, Bonnie and Clyde.....considered almost classics now. He knew I wasnt gonna be warped by any of this, and that i had considerable knowledge about alot of the material (military history, weapons, firearms etc). Besides, id have gone with my friends anyway to see those.

I wound up wiht a rather large gun collection later in life and a huge library, along with shelves of model planes and tanks. I may not be Billy Graham, but ive never harmed anyone or thier property. What would possibly be offered in place of what you are giving him? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

leitmotiv
07-27-2006, 07:51 PM
Better to have him read THE ILIAD, THE RED BADGE OF COURAGE, or FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS than to watch too many war films---the majority of which are misleading, to say the least. History is another way to maintain a sure grip on reality---the more of it the better. The novels of Gore Vidal on American history are the best tutoring in politics and war a lad could have. A friend of mine was rigorously raised on nature books and not exposed to war films, books, or toys. His mother was horrified by my intake of war stuff. He grew up to be a thoroughly henpecked, emasculated, and dominated husband, and his son is too innocent for the world.

Chuck_Older
07-27-2006, 07:54 PM
I think that a lot of things that we feel are 'wrong for the kids' is just our reactions to the PC world we live in now

Now Bear, your wife of course has a point, but since you're doing this with your son, I can't see the harm. All things in moderation, and Dad's there to explain or talk about it

When I was 7, I saw Pinnochio. When those kids turned into Donkeys, my Dad had to take me home. I bawled. How awful- those kids turned into animals! I couldn't deal with it

My point is that kids can be freaked out by the weirdest things, and what we as adults think is going to scare a kid could be wrong- we're not kids

What I'd be worried about if I had a son is that 'protecting' him from 'bad' things is going to make him awkward and sheltered. Now this is my opinion of course, but I feel that in the last 20 years, something's happened that I call "The P*ssification of America"

Now to me, TPA is what makes us ashamed to have fun, and is also what makes kids into little adults- which i really feel is wrong. Kids should have fun and get scraped knees. When I was a kid, I watched Rat Patrol, Combat!, and Mchale's Navy

I knew they were all fake, probably at around age 9, but I knew what they were about. Kids usually have a much better grasp of reality than adults think, I feel. I also had rockfights as a kid, played chicken with kids on bicycles, fought with my friends, and played with guns (that really looked like guns). So did everyone I know now

We never became violent people, and we never thought violence was 'fun'. We played war, but it was play. You're not turning your son into Alex from A Clockwork Orange if you ask me

The key here is that he's watching these movies with Dad in my opinion. Every generation grew up playing cowboys and Indians and War, except for the ones in the recent past. We have a new crop of overly-sensitive girlymen that I can't stand to talk to nowadays, too. I don't think that's a coincidence. If I had a son, I'd be teaching him how to rebuilt Quadrajet carburetors and check valve stem height on huge V-8s, and then we'd watch The Longest Day during lunchbreak

Hey, do you build model airplanes with your son? I loved that when I was a kid

DxyFlyr
07-27-2006, 08:09 PM
Just the fact that you're giving it some thought is a good indication that all is well. He's seeing it with the benefit of your guidance (as mentioned by others) and that's a great thing.

Hollywood does have a way of glossing over the consequences of all those special effects enhanced action scenes. I suppose if you handed a 9 year old "band of brothers" and said "knock yourself out", that'd be another thing. But sounds like what you guys do is right on.

He'll see those movies when he's older and relive some great memories. You know TBS will still be showing them when he's 38 and HIS wife is questioning him about letting the kids see such things.

I've got 3 boys. Nine, Seven and 2.5. The nine year old is probably ready to see some movies like this, but his younger brothers aren't. It's kind of hard to run them off, so he doesn't see much at all unless its suitable for the younger ones.

Treetop64
07-27-2006, 08:47 PM
As long as you're discussing the context of the violence to your son and he understands it, then I don't see why there should be any problem with it. You're a good parent for doing so.

No point in being naive in trying to sheild kids away from what is becoming an incresingly violent world anyway. Many can learn why history is repeating itself right before our very eyes today by seeing how and why things developed the way they did over half a century ago.

Malik_VII
07-27-2006, 08:56 PM
I agree with everybody else so far. My son is 20 right now and I let him watch and play whatever he wanted. I just made sure that I knew what was going on or what the game/movie was about.
I think that he has turned out to be a well adjusted young man. Not too worried about him sitting on a bridge shooting at cars or trying to hurt others for kicks.
I think the most important thing is we need to be there for our kids on an emotional level not just a physical.
He'll turn out just fine BC. I know this because of the posts that you have done about him and you do things with him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

timholt
07-27-2006, 09:06 PM
I grew up in the post war period (born 1946) when most of the comics, movies and games (we played outside) were either war or cowboys and indians, along with oodles of uncut WW11 documentries at the cinema.
Then along came Korea and war games (played outside in the dirt and grass) were to the fore again.
Neither myself nor any of the blokes I went through school with suffered any ill effects or traumas through these experiences except maybe for the fact that from age 16 I spent 20 years in the military (RAN).
Wars have always been part of life and kids have always played soldiers from the year dot.

Zeus-cat
07-27-2006, 09:16 PM
You are doing a great job BC. Watching the movies together and making sure he understands what you are watching is a great way to educate a child.

It would be great if you two could go listen to a talk from a World War II vet (or any war-time veteran). I went to one a few months ago at the National Museum of the US Air Force and it was fascinating. The guy was a survivor of the Bataan Death March and told us about his experiences during the war. He had a lot of stories about how the Japs (as he always called them) treated him. He had no animosity towards the Japanese after the war except for those specific individuals who were very sadistic. His real anger was reserved for Gen. MacArthur and Secretary of War Stinson. He still could not talk about these men without getting riled up, and this is 60+ years after the war.

Listening to the stories from a vet about how it really was gives you an appreciation for what these men and women did. You don't get that from a movie.

Tooz_69GIAP
07-27-2006, 10:47 PM
Well, I see mother's point, but you can't wrap your children in cotton wool.

I think as you say it's the context that is important.

I grew up watching every war movie I could get my hands on, and I grew up without a father figure, and I feel that having grown up in that way I can appreciate the acrifice that those in the armed forces make, and how horrible war can be.

As yer lad grows up, I think it will be far more important to guide him into reading about the conflicts, rather than seeing dramatic representations. The written word is what really brought it home to me what war was about (as much as books can, having never been in a combat situation).

Books like All Quiet On The Western Front, The Naked And The Dead, The Forgotten Soldier, the war poetry of Sassoon, Owen, Graves, and many many others are things you should encourage your son to discover as he grows older.

Right now, however, so long as yer lad knows that the violence and prejudices, and so on, displayed in these war movies is within a certain context then I see no problem. I think it depends on your confidence as a father and role-model to your child that matters here.

Friendly_flyer
07-28-2006, 12:25 AM
How much war movies are going to give him an unhealthy disposition depends much on how you react to them. At that age, you are still the yardstick to which all is measured. If you enjoy the violent scenes and cry for more blood, you€d be teaching him some very dubious values, but I guess you are a lat smarter than doing that.

The fact that you are spending time with the boy and talking to him is the important part here. I have spent some time as a teacher, and I can tell you not all parents do. Having seen the picture of you and him, I have no doubt you are doing well. The only concern I would raise is that the film list seem a bit monotonous, but I guess you see other things with him as well, not just war movies.

Swivet
07-28-2006, 12:28 AM
I find the "Wizard of Oz" violent.....those flying monkey's gave me nightmares http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I dont think its a bad idea to let the kid see what war is all about...Maybe 9 yrs old is a bit young,,,but nowadays kids think they know it all and seen it all...Those movies like you say are historical and real..Not like the junk that's pumped into theatre's these days...Has he seen "Saving Private Ryan" yet?..Apocolypse Now?....Hamburger Hill?..."Full Metal Jacket"? Blackhawk Down"?.....I mean there can be an obvious limit as to what you want to expose your yungin' too. I find the old classic black n white war movies are pretty good...tho i am no parent that i know of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif..That is one area i would tread lightly on...Even tho he thinks himself to be a manchild or what not, i think it's best to let him decide with your direction of course, on what's best for him and how he would take it..Yeh they think they wanna see all the blood and guts of war, but how would that affect him later on or now....A good movie with tactics and strategy is a good start.....I dunno i am drunk and going to bed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif..Good topic tho Bear http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mattinen
07-28-2006, 03:56 AM
I personally think that a nine year old is a bit young to watch war films. All kinds of war films that is. I think the old, "adventure type", movies (such as "they died with their boots on") are okay, but the realistic, more graphic films may be traumaticing for children as young as 9-years.

I therefore think there might be a conflict of interests here. On the other hand it this quite aceptable and even preferable to give a child a realistic idea of war. But on the other hand, if you want to achieve this, the films must be realistic and graphic. These kind of films, in my opinion, aren't always good for a child as young as yours.

Every child is of course an individual, but in general I think it doesn't do any harm to wait a bit. If a child is nine years old, there is still a lot of "childish things" for him/her, and perhaps his/hers opinion of war and politics can still wait a bit longer.

I myself had my share of warfilms when young. I really can't say what was their effect on me if there was any. One thing is sure though. One of the strongest effects on me when war is concerned, was seeing pictures of KIAs. (I was adult then). Most of the bodies were not in any way mutilated, but seeing the distorted faces of young guys laying in wooden boxes was quite agonycing. It really makes you think what war is and why are they fought.

-HH-Quazi
07-28-2006, 04:32 AM
Children are often "too" sheltered these days. And I can't help but feel this is a bit detremental and sets them up for alt of disappointment in the future.

I have raised three BC and there are two things I sheltered them from until they were 14yrs old or better. First was the sadistic rap gang bangin kill people lyrics\music. And the second was from having access to it in the form of the interent or spending the night away with their school friends. Back then, there weren't the programs and filters there are today, so none of them used the computer at home to surf the net until they were at least 14yrs old and after I had already sit and explained many things to them.

The most important thing I did for them being a father, and this is something fathers are responsible for, is to give them a sense of spirituality, teaching them about the God I pray to. Once they each understood that they could also have a seperate relationship\walk with Him, and once they started doing so, I have never worried about nothing much else. And all three have turned out to be fantstic people. My girls are in their 20's and still have managed not to get pregnant. And the maturity level of my 17yr old son is unbeleiveable.

The main thing here is that you are conscience of it and asking opinions from m8s here that you know will be honest and are already experienced in these things. This fact alone tells me this kid is going to be an awesome individual. What is wrong with the majority, if not all kids in some way, is the lack of a father figure in their lives at critical stages in their growth and development. I told my girls everyday of their lives how beautiful they were from the time they understood what I was saying until they went out into the world so they wouldn't be swept off their feet by the first Tom\****\Harry that told them this. I truly believe this is a major deterent of teenage pregnancy and having the confidence they need in adulthood. Kids, like yours, having a father in their lives will be more likely to suceed and overcome adversity than those that do not. Keep it up BC. He will blow your mind someday.

Friendly_flyer
07-28-2006, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
I told my girls everyday of their lives how beautiful they were from the time they understood what I was saying until they went out into the world so they wouldn't be swept off their feet by the first Tom\****\Harry that told them this. I truly believe this is a major deterent of teenage pregnancy and having the confidence they need in adulthood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tha's actually a very neat tip! Thanks, Quazi!

Crash_Moses
07-28-2006, 07:08 AM
hmm...war movies, okay. But whatever you do, don't let 'em watch the original King Kong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

My kids are still in therapy.

"But, Daddy! King Kong can't DIE!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-28-2006, 07:10 AM
I am a father of five (3 boys, 2 girls) ranging in age from 19 down to 9. My Wife is self-described as a tree-hugging California hippie (which is not a problem as I was raised by one as well). For years, I acquiesced to her wishes of excluding most all things that represented violence (i.e. guns, war movies, scary movies and video games etc,..). A few years ago we talked and it was she who relented a bit after my eldest was watching me play some of the original UT deathmatch stuff (hehe).

As their parents, we certainly have the responsibility to limit and filter their exposure as well as give guidance and explanations as appropriate. We are quite open with our children and have a good relationship with them. At this point, we have some serious UT2004 lan parties when possible...and the 9 y.o. ROCKS at just about any game he plays. He also has a realistic outlook and understanding that it's just a game.

Like discussions about s.e.x., I'd rather my children learn about it from us in a comfortable environment AND from people (parents) who actually know what they're talking about than from friends at school that likely have a slightly unhealthier attitude...ditto violence.

My .02c



TB

zero85ZEN
07-28-2006, 07:24 AM
Have you watched "Piece of Cake" with him? THAT is a good depiction of the real cost and waste of war. AND it has bunch of beautiful Spits flying in it.

I think well made movies that have realistic violence in context are totally acceptable as long as they don't disturb him too much and you take the time to discuss them with him. Something like "Full Metal Jacket" might be more appropriate for when he's a little older though...that movie shook me up when I saw it at 18!

whiteladder
07-28-2006, 07:38 AM
I have always thought that my children should understand how the world works, warts and all.

Generally each night we as a family sit down and watch the BBC news. This tends to lead to lots of questions about things we have seen and why they happen. My view is that anything they can see there make the theatrics in a war movie seem mild in comparison, especially at the moment and what is happening.

All my children have their own personalities,likes and dislikes, Lucy is 7 and likes history. Her favourite film is a Bridge too far, which we have watched more times than I care to remember, Jack isn`t the least bit interested and would rather watch a film about dogs.

The point is parents know their kids and what is a appropriate or not.

F6_Ace
07-28-2006, 07:50 AM
Interesting for someone to think that a Tarantino film contains gratuitous violence but that a war film (or indeed a war) would never do so.

Why wouldn't a Tarantino film, for example, offer your child an insight into being an undercover policeman much in the same way that a war film might give an insight into being a solder? Especially if you consider that a lot of war films are very unlikely to offer a true insight into battle what with blown off heads, massacred civilians, spilt guts, friends being chopped to pieces with mg fire, torture etc as opposed to an hour and a half of celluloid containing a few 'wizard chaps' smoking cigarettes and talking about how they 'stuck one to the Hun' in their 'spiffing kite.' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Besides, your child may well decide to become a stylish ultraviolent and philosophical gangster so watching Tarantino films would be an ideal education.

For the most part, a child shouldn't be watching something beyond the film classification although that doesn't necessarily have to be a hard and fast rule and I think there is as much harm in showing things like SPR, where someone slowly inserts a knife into another living person while maintaining eye contact as there is in some largely unbelievable, almost comedic 'horror' movie.

PikeBishop
07-28-2006, 08:01 AM
Dear All,
Yep, I have 4 sons and each of them has been allowed to see what they wanted to see. None of them has turned out bad or shown any signs of violent influences....in fact it has done the opposite. They are more saddened by the violence erupting in the middle east at the moment and I don't think they will EVER voluntarily go to war for king and country.
I did hear once from my eldest son who is now 22 that when he was about 3, he knew how to put a tape on and press play on the video. He liked "the Time Bandits" and he would often put this tape on when he got up late at night without us knowing. However, the trouble was that he did not know how to wind it forwards, so he had to watch "The Thing" in its entierety which was first on the tape until it got to the "Time Bandits". Believe it or not it does not seem to have bothered him at all as far as I can tell so I currently have very little time for those who complain about sex and violence on TV having long term effects on children. What I will say though is until we get back to the swift clip round the ear treatment in schools to get the kids in line when they are very young we will never avoid nations full of "Spoilt Bastards". Instead we want to tie the teachers hands such that they cannot do anything but exclude........whats the point??
Best regards,
SLP.

PikeBishop
07-28-2006, 08:04 AM
Thats "Spoilt Bastard" from the comic 'VIZ'

triad773
07-28-2006, 08:12 AM
Hey Bearcat I think your son is pretty lucky. Yes I agree it's fine to watch war movies/history stuff because you are there you clarify any misconceptions or questions he may have.

I remember growing up during the Vietnam War my folks were so set against violence they refused me toy guns. Being an imaginative child, I simply unscrewed a dining room table leg and ran around the house yelling "TATATATATATA!"

Hey you are open and wanting to inform; not over-protect. I think that's wonderful.

~S~

WOLFMondo
07-28-2006, 08:12 AM
Bearcat, my dad used to let me watch war films and my grandfather used to take me to airshows. I remember watching Das Boot when it first came out on TV, I thought it was so cool but at the same time horrific.

Both my grandparents talked about there service time and got it into me at a young age that war is ******ed and WW2 should have been the end to all conflict, my surviving grandfather now talks about nothing else! YOu should hear the old guy go on about Bush and Blair and what FDR and Churchill would do to them if they were still alive today! He constantly tells me about Falais and the stench and about the guys he used to pull out of planes with limbs missing, cut in half or with horrific burns. He was in BC then later in the 2nd TAF as a nurse.

My other one told me what it was like to be on a sinking ship (HMS Manchester) and to be dive bombed (he fought in the Malta convoys then later on in Task Force 57) and firing back with pom poms, the adrenaline and the fear.

It puts it all in perspective and I got all this at a young age when I was facinated by it all. What they told me really made me think and still does about what went on. I think I have a greater appreciation and understanding because of it and can seperate real violence from video game violence very easily.

I think you need to pick your films you show him and put it in context. Battle of Britain or Das Boot yes, U571, no. Dirty Harry yes, Natural born killers...wait till he's 18.

WWMaxGunz
07-28-2006, 08:36 AM
BC, those war films are candy-coated next to the reality. People 'die' cleanly in any that
can be shown. The fullness is not even shown in the news from Iraq and area of Israel.
What you need to guard against is the kid thinking it's okay or worse, humming along with
the march-along music and getting excited over upcoming action. Next thing you know.....

Just work with him Big Daddy. Help him keep a perspective and a level head and not jump
into anything on a whim. Also not to build up self-images and go wearing/advertising them.
No should always come with the education of why which he's a into the age where he can
handle reason but for you time is just going to shoot by faster, you won't always have
time to explain. Bond up, take him out and push gently at giving him responsibilities
with small rewards. It needs to be a way of life to sink all the way in, and there's not
many good places for that in our society today. What can I say? TV ads tell us to spend
and indulge how many times an hour? You know it.

Hopefully he learns discipline from you and life, he has a good start I can tell with you
and his concerned rather than flakey Mom. Just keep making time and don't let him get full
of himself and the new hairs.

horseback
07-28-2006, 08:43 AM
In my experience nine year old boys vary quite a bit in intelligence, comprehension, and maturity, and what they can 'handle' in terms of screen violence should be left up to the experts-their parents. You and Mamabear have invested the time, effort and genetic materials that created your son, and you know him not just from watching him and interacting with him, but because he is literally of your flesh; he has a personality similar to your own or one of your siblings, and you KNOW some of the roadblocks and problems he will face, because you faced them once yourselves, or watched someone near and dear to you face them.

On sons, I have to give an involved and interested Father a slight edge over Mom in the major upbringing decisions after the boy is weaned. Boys are profoundly different from girls, and I have observed that women in general tend to follow the popular trends, which in the context of raisng sons I think are currently based on dreamy theories (I call it Oprahfication) that have no basis in observed fact. An awful lot of boys have been raised to be girls in the last 25 years or so (and you all have seen the kind of guys I'm talking about on the job or at school).

Men (at least the grown up ones) tend to stay with what they have seen work rather than experiment with 'live rounds.'

Back when my sons were very young, my ex used to go on and on about how she'd never let her sons play with war toys--and then one day, while she was in the middle of one those sermonettes with some neighbors in the front yard, the oldest, who was about four, picked up a banana and pointed it at her and yelled 'Bang!'...they'll have their war toys one way or the other, and they'll find ways to see the war movies and TV shows Mama doesn't approve of, but if you are there to discuss and channel those natural male energies, they'll be directed in ways that you can influence, and they will be a lot less likely to seek out the kinds of things that would be destructive to them.

cheers

horseback

p1ngu666
07-28-2006, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">YOu should hear the old guy go on about Bush and Blair and what FDR and Churchill would do to them if they were still alive today! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ooh that is a nice thought http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

war movies are normaly fairly tame, specialy when u think about what has gone on in some places.

there are kids his age, who have been forced to kill there friends by biting them to death.

alot of media in the west makes war seem so clean and clinical, but it isnt.

Worf101
07-28-2006, 09:42 AM
Tough call Bearcat. My son's 13 and squeamish.. I can't get him to sit through a war movie of any kind, he gets the bored fidgits. Can't stand horror either, hides his eyes. But he's only been under my roof for 3 years now.. long story. But in real life he's a two sport all-star who love the sting of combat and relishes competition. People are a mystery.

He wants to see "stupid" movies like "Date Movie" and "*******". I squash all attempts at seeing those under my roof. But after awhile you find out he's seen em at friends houses, who's parents give junior any kind of indoor entertainment he wants long as he's "Safe" inside. I'd love to have Ian express a genuine interest knowing what war's about but this world is different.

His school took a field trip to the World Trade Center a year to the week before the attack. He and his mum had to walk off of Manhattan Island on Sept. 11. He's seen things even I as a veteran have not seen.

Bottom line is be a Father, guide, advise, participate with your son in all you can. Do your best and hope for the best.

Da Worfster

shotdownski
07-28-2006, 09:44 AM
Bearcat,

I've kind of been thinking alot about this issue also and have been contemplating just why I (we) have this fascination with war. I think back to the books and movies I enjoyed as a kid (and continue to enjoy), the games played (then and now), and the museums and historic sites I'm interested in visiting, and they almost always relate to war. What the hell is it about such a horrific, wasteful, insane human endevour that so intrigues me? I now wonder if my buying books and movies about war or visiting war museums and battlefields somehow contributes to society's rationalization that war is "normal", glorious, and unavoidable.

Anyway, in thinking about the issue and how to discuss it with your son, maybe check out the follwing book:

"War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" by Chris Hedges (war correspondant)

"Hedges argues that war is both a deadly addiction€"a drug that offers an unmatchable intoxication, the thrill of being released from the moral strictures of everyday life€"and a unifying force that provides a sense of meaning, purpose, and self-sacrifice that can wash away life's trivial concerns. But the meaningfulness of combat, Hedges suggests, depends upon the myth of war. In reality, no matter what grand cause it is supposed to support, war is simply the basest form of aggression: "organized murder." Once war begins, the moral universe collapses and every manner of atrocity can be justified in the eyes of those who wage it, because the cause is just, the enemy is inhuman, and only war can restore balance to the world. Hedges reveals the hollowness of such thinking and makes an impassioned plea for humility, love, and compassion as the human race's only hope for survival. Only when a nation can accept its share of blame and see its enemy with compassion rather than hatred can war be averted and true peace prevail." - from a book group site


Maybe a "war" flick your wife would enjoy also, an old movie I only recently saw for the first time, "The Americanization of Emily". A couple of quotes from the protagonist, LCDR Charlie Madison (James Garner):

"...we shall never end wars ... by blaming it on ministers and generals or warmongering imperialists or all the other banal bogies. It€s the rest of us who build statues to those generals and name boulevards after those ministers; the rest of us who make heroes of our dead and shrines of our battlefields. We wear our widows€ weeds like nuns and perpetuate war by exalting its sacrifices. My brother died at Anzio €" an everyday soldier€s death, no special heroism involved. They buried what pieces they found of him. But my mother insists he died a brave death and pretends to be very proud."

"[Y]ou see, now my other brother can€t wait to reach enlistment age. That€ll be in September. It may be ministers and generals who blunder us into wars, but the least the rest of us can do is to resist honoring the institution. What has my mother got for pretending bravery was admirable? She€s under constant sedation and terrified she may wake up one morning and find her last son has run off to be brave."

Good luck,

Shot

Chuck_Older
07-28-2006, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Interesting for someone to think that a Tarantino film contains gratuitous violence but that a war film (or indeed a war) would never do so.

Why wouldn't a Tarantino film, for example, offer your child an insight into being an undercover policeman much in the same way that a war film might give an insight into being a solder? Especially if you consider that a lot of war films are very unlikely to offer a true insight into battle what with blown off heads, massacred civilians, spilt guts, friends being chopped to pieces with mg fire, torture etc as opposed to an hour and a half of celluloid containing a few 'wizard chaps' smoking cigarettes and talking about how they 'stuck one to the Hun' in their 'spiffing kite.' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Besides, your child may well decide to become a stylish ultraviolent and philosophical gangster so watching Tarantino films would be an ideal education.

For the most part, a child shouldn't be watching something beyond the film classification although that doesn't necessarily have to be a hard and fast rule and I think there is as much harm in showing things like SPR, where someone slowly inserts a knife into another living person while maintaining eye contact as there is in some largely unbelievable, almost comedic 'horror' movie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I think it's because Audie Murphy never screamed "Any of you motherf'n ****** move and I'll execute every last motherf'n one of you" while brandishing a pistol in a diner http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tarantino uses shock a lot; it's his trade. he deals with the base, selfish side of human emotion a lot. His characters generally aren't rolemodels, either

A Sergio Leone or John Ford film, for example, may show seamy or even evil sides of characters, but even the murderous Frank from Once upon a Time in the West is a preferable character for a nine year old to watch when compared to most of Tarantino's characters. If the F word didn't exist, Tarantino's movies would have no dialogue

Bewolf
07-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Personally I am all for teaching children about the way the world is as soon as possible. War included.

That said, 9 years maybe is a bit young after all. I'd wait at least to puberty to expose him to these levels of seriousity, as puberty changes character and mindset to a more mature level. Doing all this before that I have the feeling one robs children a bit from their childhood, yanno, not having to worry about the world, the harshness awaiting them, those lucky days every person only expirience once in their lifetime. Childhood after all.

TC_Stele
07-28-2006, 10:45 AM
I'm with you, BC. My dad was from WW2 and he had me during his mid 50s. A lot of the dads of my friends were born either as baby boomers or later.

My dad told me a lot about what you've covered and I would always watch war movies with him as young as 8. I saw all the classic war movies that even my generation doesn't know about as well as the old news reels and programs like Victory at Sea. He has told me a lot about his generation, war and violence. He too shuns away from the Hollywood violent movies, similar to the ones you mentioned.

I'm glad he did show me and tell me about the many aspects of violence because it has given me a better understanding and appreciation of our history probably more so if I he hadn't told me about them. In fact I feel that its a dad's obligation in one of the many things that a dad must teach his son. This is the boy you grow up with and I'd be damned if I even had some school teacher preach his views on him.

That's my opinion, though.

general_kalle
07-28-2006, 01:46 PM
i think i hugely depends on wheter he dreams about it gets frightened etc.

if he dosnt then no problem...the first game i played was close combat I...if u know it its one of the first real time taktik games...(ww2 normandy)

SithSpeeder
07-28-2006, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What do yoyu guys think? As parents.... am I off base? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
BearCat--

I'm a parent of a 9 year old daughter and a 7 year old son. Most folks find my kids well adjusted, mature, and great kids. (Those are my "credentials" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif --I have to say that being a Dad is THE best job I've ever had. I love to do it and I am truly happy being their parent and their friend. Digressing for a moment, I asked my son "If you could only pick one best friend, who would it be?" (I was leading up to having a sleepover at our house with a buddy). But do you know what he said? "You, Dad."))

Back on the off (but very important) topic...I implore you to repeat back to your wife EXACTLY what the points of her argument for HER position. And when she agrees that you have it right, post her beliefs in conjunction with yours. The truth for your kids will lie somewhere in between.

You ask for our opinion based on what *you* are telling us of your situation (re: manchild/maturity). Does your wife agree with your characterization? Because in the end, she is the only other parent's opinion that matters. She may have a totally different perspective on his "level of manhood" or maturity (perhaps being less of a manchild, or perhaps not being as mature as you may think).

If she agrees with your characterization AND HAS NOTHING ELSE TO ADD TO HIS CHARACTERIZATION, it appears, IMO, that you are doing quite well as a parent. Sharing a common interest, teaching him about life/death, horrors of war, right and wrong, etc. And once he becomes a man himself (however long that takes, not some magical age), then you will be great friends with common interests. Another wonderful thing.

Show your wife this thread (if you dare http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

* _54th_Speeder *

SeaFireLIV
07-28-2006, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
As many of you know I have a son now 9 and we are very close. He loves FB and COD. We have watched all the war movies from SPR to WWS... and anything in between. My wife objects to this... she feels that I shouldnt be exposing him to such onscreen violence.... My opinion though is
A) That it is violence in a context i.e. war, which is history.
and
B) He is a manchild. I want him to have no illusions about the horrors of war so that should he chose the life of a soldier or be involuntarily drafted into it, he will have no illusions about what he is getting into. I also want to offset the desensitizing that some games have, and plus since I know he is growing up and out.. and I wont be able to shield him from a lot of stuff but so much, I want him to understand as well as he can some of the consequences of violence, war, and politics...... that it is NOT like in the game.. that it makes NO SENSE sometimes and that there are no gaurantees of glory and fame on the battlefield.

I dont let him watch things that have gratuitious violence for it's own sake. The "Hills Have Eyes" "Scream" "Jason" "Freddie" or even the Tarrantino stuff.... I shy away from for him.. but things like "Gladiator", "BoB"... of course classics like "All's Quiet On The Wester Front" and such.. we have watched.... some several times.

It has been written that in the abundance of many counselors there is wisdom. What do yoyu guys think? As parents.... am I off base? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have it exactly right. I don`t have time to go into detail,but you`re right.

It`s natural for women to be concerned, it is their way. But your son should know that while playing war in simulations is `fun` real war is not and as we run COD or IL2 a part of us should always reflect upon the terrible reality. I am personally always concerned that not enough kids understand or respect the fact.

T_O_A_D
07-28-2006, 05:27 PM
Well BC I haven't read all three pages.

But I would feel alot better with you next to him answering the tough questions, and feeding him the horors of it as you feel fit, regarding his maturity.

He will find out the truth no matter what if he is interested in it. Its best a Loved one is involved, rather than a stranger.

He will make his own desicions on it no matter what.

But maturity,honor,respect,love,are all learned, we are not born with any of them. Without someone passing them down a person can really turn into a real POS!!!!

Just the history line of Hitler, Stalin, ect. are a strong advicate for the need of nurturing.

Lust, Greed, Hate, ect all seem pretty easy to generate, without nurturing.

My 2 cents.

faustnik
07-28-2006, 05:32 PM
Well, I told my kid he could watch Terminator when he is 12. He's 11 now and counting days.

Based on reality or not, they're just movies. It's not that big a deal.

GR142-Pipper
07-29-2006, 12:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
It has been written that in the abundance of many counselors there is wisdom. What do yoyu guys think? As parents.... am I off base? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You're not off-base whatsoever. If you look at the titles of what you watch, they all have a common underlying theme. That theme is that freedom comes at a price, often at very stiff and violent price. I've watched all the same flicks with my own sons with the same purposes that you likely share: understanding what your country is all about, understanding that you as citizens we all have an obligation to our fellow countrymen and, most importantly, understanding that certain ideas and concepts are worth sacrificing for. They grew up to be straight-up and squared away men that I'm very proud of. Yours will too.

GR142-Pipper

F6_Ace
07-29-2006, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Interesting for someone to think that a javascript:void(0);Tarantino film contains gratuitous violence but that a war film (or indeed a war) would never do so.

Why wouldn't a Tarantino film, for example, offer your child an insight into being an undercover policeman much in the same way that a war film might give an insight into being a solder? Especially if you consider that a lot of war films are very unlikely to offer a true insight into battle what with blown off heads, massacred civilians, spilt guts, friends being chopped to pieces with mg fire, torture etc as opposed to an hour and a half of celluloid containing a few 'wizard chaps' smoking cigarettes and talking about how they 'stuck one to the Hun' in their 'spiffing kite.' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Besides, your child may well decide to become a stylish ultraviolent and philosophical gangster so watching Tarantino films would be an ideal education.

For the most part, a child shouldn't be watching something beyond the film classification although that doesn't necessarily have to be a hard and fast rule and I think there is as much harm in showing things like SPR, where someone slowly inserts a knife into another living person while maintaining eye contact as there is in some largely unbelievable, almost comedic 'horror' movie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I think it's because Audie Murphy never screamed "Any of you motherf'n ****** move and I'll execute every last motherf'n one of you" while brandishing a pistol in a diner http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tarantino uses shock a lot; it's his trade. he deals with the base, selfish side of human emotion a lot. His characters generally aren't rolemodels, either

A Sergio Leone or John Ford film, for example, may show seamy or even evil sides of characters, but even the murderous Frank from Once upon a Time in the West is a preferable character for a nine year old to watch when compared to most of Tarantino's characters. If the F word didn't exist, Tarantino's movies would have no dialogue </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree regarding the dialogue being nothing but swearing - Tarantino's films often have quite intelligent dialogue that make for interesting [but often completely pointless and banal] social comment. In other words, the conversations in Tarantino films mirror a lot of what you might hear in real life "made more interesting" by the notion that hardcore gangsters etc talk about the same cr*p that "normal" people do. Besides, would you expect a gangster to never use expletives but to be eloquent with a rather extensive vocabulary?

I'd agree that there are few role models in the classic sense but there are characters who have found themselves in a situation they want to get out of for one reason or another and are 'trying to do the right thing' to achieve that, which has some parallel with real life.

Also, I'm not entirely sure I'd be overly comfortable with my kid(s) having Tuco, Angel Eyes, Harmonica, The Man with No Name etc as 'role models'; after all, they are trained killers who take lives either for pleasure or money, or are involved in defrauding the state at every opportunity under the guise of 'administering justice' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NerdConnected
07-29-2006, 04:26 AM
Bearcat99,

Well, I can only speak for my self and my own experiences when I was that young. Not all of course, only the things I can remember of that period. Well, let me say, thinking wasn't one of them ;-)

When I wanted to do something, I just did. It was all trial and error, rewards and punishment. If it meant fun, was new and exciting, it was good. When I got punished or got hurt, it meant "Okay, not good".

And what your parents tell you, you simply believe. Afterall, why would they lie to you?

What is lying anyway? At 9 the whole concept of lying was unknown to me. When I told a lie, I did'nt even know I was telling one. I don't think I even blushed when I told one. In all, I cannot remember I had some kind of moral compass when I was 9 years old.

Don't know how the rest fared, maybe some got more of an adult when they were 12 years old or so, but I didn't ;-) I still had a long way to go. When I was 12 I hardly watched television or movies; I couldn't care less. I liked to play outside all day long as much as I could: soccer, tree climbing, making a tree hut, playing soldiers, whatever, but I never really thought of all these things. I just did because it was fun.

When I was 15 or 16 I actually started to 'think' a bit about stuff. The why, why not, and so on. Not very long or hard thoughts of course, that came much, much later.. ;-)

I think I only got fully aware of myself at the age of 25. Okay, apparantly I think, I do stuff and therefore I must exist ;-).

Maybe that's the reason why I think people are more or less adults when they're 25 or so.

Mark

blakduk
08-01-2006, 01:07 AM
Bearcat- my two cents.
People tie themselves in knots over 'what should i let my child watch on tv/cinema' etc. The truth is that kids a lot more from those closest to them than they do from popular media. During adolescence a lot of experimenting goes on with different lifestyles, music, ideas, philosophies etc, but in the long run the greates influence is the parents or other caregivers from a young age.
The Jesuit axiom of 'Give me the boy until age 7 and i'll give you the man' has proven quite robust for the last few hundred years.
Watch how your boy responds to the films- if they are distressing to him dont force them on him. If he asks lots of questions, answer them as honestly as you can. If he starts to find the 'glory of war' too exciting, explain why war is such a stupid idea and should be the LAST resort to resolve issues.
Most of his learning will be via the role-modelling of his parents.
Kids are resilient and have a much better understanding of the world than we often give them credit for. The variability in the way kids are raised is astounding, yet the vast majority turn out okay.

rnzoli
08-01-2006, 03:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Watch how your boy responds to the films- if they are distressing to him dont force them on him. If he asks lots of questions, answer them as honestly as you can. If he starts to find the 'glory of war' too exciting, explain why war is such a stupid idea and should be the LAST resort to resolve issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

That's what I am trying with my son in similar age. Sometimes he watches WW2 documentaries on NG or Discovery channel with me, and the color pictures of rotten dead bodies, or stories about putting the cut-off pen!s back to the tortured soldier's mouth just go way too far. I usually change channel temporarily and only switch back if my son wants to switch back himself - but only after clarifying the context, so he doesn't get too much dragged into the world of those violent pictures. I know which scenes made the biggest impression on him, because he speaks or asks about them many times repeatedly.

Another factor is age. It makes a huge difference whether your son is 6, 8, 10, or 12. Mothers have a tendency to treat their sons younger, and fathers to treat their sons older, than they actually are. Make a nice dispute area between parents http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

By the way, I showed some Il2 movies to my 2 year old daughter, she likes to see the airplanes, but when we got to some action scenes where airplanes explode mid-air, she was truly shocked, nearly cried. I will never show her anything like this, at least not until I can successfully explain to her the difference between reality and simulation.

russ.nl
08-01-2006, 04:12 AM
All I know is that with the younger generation you have to explane them more. Valuas and standards are no longer just given by the perants and community. Parent are getting to busy with there own lives. These children have much more media's then most here had in there younger years. The things shown on these media are becoming very superfisial, mostly just sensation. Unfortunatly this means violence and disrespecting people of all sorts by making fun of them.

You have to watch out with the war movies. They are briliant peases of propoganda.

HotelBushranger
08-01-2006, 04:13 AM
I think a big factor today is that adults deal with child-related problems in an adult frame of mind, not a childs (understandable). Remember that children don't think "jee I'm playing soldiers - I wonder about the serious, real life implications of what would happen if I really WAS a soldier killing another fellow human being in a conflict that will resolve itself in a matter of months/years and will be forgotten in another few, therefore making those soldiers deaths in vain". Honestly. When I was 9, 10 I watched my brother play games like Doom, Quake, Jedi Knight, etc. And up until recently when I really started to 'think' think about stuff like this, my mentality at that age didn't really realise that this was theoretically an actual person - after all it's just a game, right? As I said before, I doubt children at that age put too much spiritual thought into it; they're far too busy having fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All I know is that with the younger generation you have to explane them more. Valuas and standards are no longer just given by the perants and community. Parent are getting to busy with there own lives. These children have much more media's then most here had in there younger years. The things shown on these media are becoming very superfisial, mostly just sensation. Unfortunatly this means violence and disrespecting people of all sorts by making fun of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's actually a very good point. In the 50's and 60's when a lot of these forum members were growing up, there were strong family and moral values in both the community and the media. Nowadays, there is neither around, and children spend a lot of their time in front of the TV or computer, and that becomes their spiritual parent - a very dangerous thing indeed.

Bearcat99
08-01-2006, 06:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
In my experience nine year old boys vary quite a bit in intelligence, comprehension, and maturity, and what they can 'handle' in terms of screen violence should be left up to the experts-their parents. You and Mamabear have invested the time, effort and genetic materials that created your son, and you know him not just from watching him and interacting with him, but because he is literally of your flesh; he has a personality similar to your own or one of your siblings, and you KNOW some of the roadblocks and problems he will face, because you faced them once yourselves, or watched someone near and dear to you face them.

On sons, I have to give an involved and interested Father a slight edge over Mom in the major upbringing decisions after the boy is weaned. Boys are profoundly different from girls, and I have observed that women in general tend to follow the popular trends, which in the context of raisng sons I think are currently based on dreamy theories (I call it Oprahfication) that have no basis in observed fact. An awful lot of boys have been raised to be girls in the last 25 years or so (and you all have seen the kind of guys I'm talking about on the job or at school).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sentiments exactly.... I have 5 daughters... I raised 4 of them and still have one under my roof who is 16. All but one turned out to make me proud.. and that one pisses me off more than anything with some of the decisions she makes.... I didnt raise my oldest son... long story.... who is now 27 and in the Navy.. but we get along great and he is well adjusted.... my youngest son is from marriage #2 and I cut his cord so....

I agree with you about what society in general and American society in particular is subtly doing to me.... Look at most of the men in the media that you see... they are either weak boobs or mindless clods driven by all the typical things that men are supposed to be motivated by....

Thanks for all the input. I just wanted to get some opinions.... I figured maybe I might be a little off base.. and I didnt just want to toally dismiss his mothers opinion without consideration, but if his mother had her way he would be softer... not by her intentions of course... but sometimes.. especially with boys, the whole nurturing coddling thing just doesn't work.... Like John Maer says.... "Boys you can break. Find out just how much they can take. Boys will be strong, Boys soldier on. But boys would be gone without a woman's good, good love." But boys need that foot either planted firmly or in very close proximity, cocked and at the ready to thier behinds, and relatively early too or else when that testosterone hits.... the problems could be worse than if that firm hand was there all along.

My boy gets a good balance.... he went to Camp Narnia this year..... goes to Sunday school, is taught aboy chivalry and I try to make sure I am always mindful of how I speak to my wife, mother, sisters, Mnlaw, aunts etc... I just dont think the violence will be bad for him as long as it isnt a constant dose and in some kind of context.... Someone mentioned Tarrantino.... while QT films do show the seedier side of life.... IMO he doesnt need to see all that just yet.... but the war movies in particular, because they are placed firmly in a historical context, becomes easier to take. He can tell you more about the 21st century than a lot of High Schoolers I know.

justiceboy
08-01-2006, 07:08 AM
A little late with my response but here it goes.

I have 2 daughters, 9 and 10. The 10 year old is like my shadow, she loves pc games and her and i watch the military channel for hours. My wife asked once "don't you think thats a bit much for her?" as we watch a story about the Batan Death March" my daughters response was. "It's what really happened mom, don't cover my eyes." My wife has never interupted our shows, and now she acutally joins us in watching the shows. We try and coax the younger, but she is a true girly girl.
If it is History, and wars usually are, then it is our duty to teach our childred the truth.
Now stupid movies like friday 13th, violence just for the sake of violence, that kind of stuff is rediculous and we don't even turn the channel to that kind of ****. Although she laughed her full head off at Jaws.

GR142-Pipper
08-01-2006, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
My boy gets a good balance.... he went to Camp Narnia this year..... goes to Sunday school, is taught aboy chivalry and I try to make sure I am always mindful of how I speak to my wife, mother, sisters, Mnlaw, aunts etc... I just dont think the violence will be bad for him as long as it isnt a constant dose and in some kind of context.... Someone mentioned Tarrantino.... while QT films do show the seedier side of life.... IMO he doesnt need to see all that just yet.... but the war movies in particular, because they are placed firmly in a historical context, becomes easier to take. He can tell you more about the 21st century than a lot of High Schoolers I know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The best way is simply to lead by example. Children are observant and it's amazing what reflections of us they can be...good or bad.

GR142-Pipper

Bearcat99
08-01-2006, 05:01 PM
True..... and for fathers with daughters..... like it or not.. a lot of what they choose in a man will be a refection of us so..... and as for our sons... a lot of what they become as men will be... us... so...

JG301_nils
08-01-2006, 05:37 PM
Well BC, I agree with what you're doing. I did the same with my son as he grew up. Though my wife too had some hesitations about it, she never expressed them to him.
I think he was a bit older before he showed any interest for this kind of movies maybe 12 or so.
But from the beginning I must admit I hesitated myself, a little to show him these movies. But I thought it's better to see the films with him than without. He would have seen them anyway, someway or another, at home or with friends.
But I always has believed and still do, that "hollywood" war film gives a skew and often false glorifying image of war, than documentaries do. Not saying they are always correct either (I think of the propaganda effect), but at least they depict things that has really happened. Especially kids are often too soft to watch blood splats and open wounds etc on film and somehow I do not believe these movies "anti war" message (if they have any) reaches the young open minds. Those attitudes are developed later in life I think.
But as I said, my son (now a 20 year old navy man) grew up with this stuff around at home both in movies and books, but seems to have kept a sound and objective wiev on wars, and who has been the bad guys in history.
We still have a deep and (hopefully) everlasting father and son relationship that I wouldn't been without.

Bearcat99
08-01-2006, 05:55 PM
I think somne of the newer warfilms do less glamorization.... there was no glamor in SPR... and BoB will always remain a classic to me. My son was so impressed with the whole Oppum affair in SPR..... that he (Oppum) was so afraid and he wondered why.... he didnt understand until we went to the M.A.A.M. WWII weekend and some guys were shooting blanks from a 30 cal..... the noise was defeaning.... I said "Now do you know why it was so scary?" He shook his head looking back and forth from the gun to me... Then he said.... "This isn't like Call of Duty at all dad... this is real loud... " and I said.. yeah.. now imagine this happening all around you, not only the 30, but 50s, M-1s, 45s, grenades, yelling and screaming and heat and fire and you being afraid that you would die....... and you are younger than Leah and older than Shelly (His sisters... 25 & 16) I could see he was really giving it some thought.

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-01-2006, 06:03 PM
As a father of four, I agree with you Bearcat. Your head is screwed on straight my friend so dont second guess yourself as a parent.

Fork-N-spoon
08-02-2006, 01:02 PM
Whether or not your wife is right or wrong doesn't matter. I remember a proverb that goes something like this, "Better to live in a cave full of hungry lions than under the same roof as a nagging wife." And then the other, "Nothing can cause a man more pain than a woman."

Perhaps you should listen to her even if she's wrong.