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View Full Version : Can someone explain what's going on here?



Noxx0s
02-19-2010, 12:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0w12iMk1sM

I really need to learn how to do these kinds of maneuvers.

Specifically, how's he's diving and then rolling inverted and "sliding" across the top up above the bombers (while still maintaining the same heading as the bombers and so staying with them) and then diving again from the other side.

What exactly is he doing with the stick and rudder to do this? If I wanted to achieve a similar result I would have to just turn and go straight in the other direction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif . (which would of course let the bombers pass me since I wouldn't be maintaining the same direction while sliding across like this guy manages)

Noxx0s
02-19-2010, 12:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0w12iMk1sM

I really need to learn how to do these kinds of maneuvers.

Specifically, how's he's diving and then rolling inverted and "sliding" across the top up above the bombers (while still maintaining the same heading as the bombers and so staying with them) and then diving again from the other side.

What exactly is he doing with the stick and rudder to do this? If I wanted to achieve a similar result I would have to just turn and go straight in the other direction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif . (which would of course let the bombers pass me since I wouldn't be maintaining the same direction while sliding across like this guy manages)

M_Gunz
02-19-2010, 12:57 AM
He is using the vertical and rolling to keep his view on the targets.
That first turn, he went up which slowed him down while storing his speed as height. He still turned
hard over the top (started to gray out) but on coming back down he regained his speed to catch up.
At that point and after he maintained higher energy (speed and height combined, height can be turned
into speed, speed can be turned into height; you have to learn the "exchange rate" with you at the
stick for whatever plane you try and it's best to know that well before you get into a fight) than
the bombers by flying up and down while staying mostly behind them yet keeping up.
Lot of roll used there, lot of vertical. Just what he did with the stick and pedals... oh come on,
there was a lot of maneuver there and typing it out would take forever! Answer is practice outside
of combat first basic flying then BCM's (Basic Combat Maneuvers) then ACM's (Advanced CM's) where
you can concentrate on what you're doing and how it works without a load of distraction over targets
and threats.

He went up and down and rolled a lot, LOL! Back stick, center, side stick, center, repeat as necessary.

All the while rudder used to keep the flight coordinated, ie the plane pointing where it is going
which the little black ball in the smiley-curve tube down on the instrument panel shows if you're lined
up right or not. if the ball is to the left then give it left rudder until it's centered. Since you
can't watch the ball and look through the gunsight at the same time you have to practice until keeping
rudder coordinated with stick becomes second nature, your view down enough to see the ball and still
some over the dash and you can't do that while you fight. It's your choice, you won't learn it by
reading posts or watching videos either.

Ba5tard5word
02-19-2010, 12:59 AM
I think he's just kinda pointing his nose up to hold up his horizontal movement while the enemy planes move forward, and then as he runs out of energy diving back down on them. Seems like a good way to get hit by the rear gunners on those planes though, Pe-2's have really nasty and ridiculously accurate gunners.

You can use rudder to control yourself better at low speed and also to make turns more quickly at any speed, it takes practice to avoid spinning out though.

Tully__
02-19-2010, 01:25 AM
It's a very large barrel roll with lots of barrel (vertical change) and very slow roll rate.

There's a basic description of how they work (including a neat little animation) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll {disclaimer: I didn't read this article, just googled it}

BluesmanSF
02-19-2010, 04:39 AM
Yep, as Tully said, it's a big barrel roll, or either very "lazy" rolling scissors. A good manouver as it doesn't bleed your energy THAT much, and gunners have a hard time getting hits on you due to your constant movement both vertically and horizontally. Though it reduces greatly your situational awareness, as I don't think one is very capable to observe anything else than the bombers. So online, make sure not to engage in that kind of fight when there's fighters nearby.

M-Gunz is correct saying it's quite hard to write down everything he does with the "stick 'n rudder" and therefore, I heartly recommend this guide:In Pursuit (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/inpursuit.pdf)

It's quite a hefty article, but the basic and advanced manouvers are VERY good reading. Pictures included =)

6S_Blues

FlatSpinMan
02-19-2010, 06:04 AM
I think this would be better suited to smaller groups of bombers. Against a box of B-17's you might get caught in the fire from other flights.

MikkOwl
02-19-2010, 06:44 AM
Regarding keeping things coordinated with the rudder - that stuff doesn't work on any type of low resistance, little movement rudder pedals I know about, unless you do some mad courving or plain limit the range of input. I did try limiting the range on my G940 pedals, and using no courves it was very fun to fly and lining up the ball with ease (otherwise way too sensitive for that stuff). But the loss of more hardcore rudder work was too much of a sacrifice.

And yes, a big barrel roll (that's the principle at least). Nothing special, just have to make sure one doesn't turn too much left or right as that would take oneself away from their flight path too much to keep this up.

I don't think this would be a healthy thing to do with many big bombers with tons of guns. Twin 12.7mm brownings on roof cupolas, tail gunners, ball gunners, side gunners.. ouch. Also a larger collision probability with a bunch of huge planes.

M_Gunz
02-19-2010, 07:33 AM
I stay coordinated with a twisty stick, pedals should be better but IMO car pedals pressed into service
as airplane pedals are a poor choice since they move independent of each other or at least some do.

I don't recall him taking hits from the gunners. Approaching them he was either changing course or speed
or both and the IL2 AI is not good at predicting anything not steady. I thought that this video would be
a good link to show "sniper gunner" posters how to not get hit.

PF_Coastie
02-19-2010, 07:59 AM
If you do this online against a good bomber pilot, you will die. You may get away with one or two really high speed passes, but after you lose a little bit of that, you will need to climb out a little to start over.

Also, when you are online, the host/mission builders can turn up the gunner accuracy through various settings.

This method surely does not always work.

Jumoschwanz
02-19-2010, 08:20 AM
All that is going on here is that if you want to shoot down bombers, you shoot at them from any angle except from the rear. I have two high-definition videos up on YouTube attacking heavies Online with the FW190A here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx6gh6x2Hv4

It is a two part where I beat up a B-24 and a few B-17s flown by FA_squad......

I recommend the 720 resolution as the best compromise between performance and clarity. The videos were captured at 1280x960 res, so they may be a hair better at 1080, but not much.

You CAN roll around a bomber and stay ahead of the AI gunners and get shots in, but yes, if there is a good bomber pilot who can man one of his turrets manually and is good with it, you may be in trouble. So, vs. AI or a human gunner, FAST off-angle shots from the front, top, bottom and sides are your best chance.

Sillius_Sodus
02-19-2010, 10:42 AM
It's also interesting to see how well he can hit with the gunsight so far of centre of view on some of his passes. I'll have to practice that.

Ba5tard5word
02-19-2010, 12:27 PM
It requires practice to get in hits by doing a pass and firing "blindly" when swooping past an enemy as in that video (or when they swoop past you), as opposed to lining up the shot, zooming in on the gunsights and firing carefully, but it is pretty exhilarating and is a good way to avoid bomber gunners or to shoot down an AI fighter that is being annoying and doing endless cheapo scissors. The Fw-190 is great for it because of its wall of cannon fire.