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View Full Version : How to win a dogfight in a La 5f or fn ?



BAG.LordDante
07-22-2008, 03:49 AM
I realy don´t get it
When im in a FW 190 i feel quite save.
I know what it can do and what it cant because i fly that Bird most of my online Time.
Yesterday on my favorite server, ( by.sturmovik.de ) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif there where so many blue guys that i joined RED took of with La5fn
and got shot down and shot down and shot down
The only thing that worked was to start a turnfight on groundlevel. But suprisingly none of my oponents was stupid enough to let that happen. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Very unsatisfying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

So how do you red aces fly that bird the most effective way?

V

BAG.LordDante
07-22-2008, 03:49 AM
I realy don´t get it
When im in a FW 190 i feel quite save.
I know what it can do and what it cant because i fly that Bird most of my online Time.
Yesterday on my favorite server, ( by.sturmovik.de ) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif there where so many blue guys that i joined RED took of with La5fn
and got shot down and shot down and shot down
The only thing that worked was to start a turnfight on groundlevel. But suprisingly none of my oponents was stupid enough to let that happen. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Very unsatisfying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

So how do you red aces fly that bird the most effective way?

V

PanzerAce
07-22-2008, 04:07 AM
Well, I mostly play on servers with the same plane sets for each side, but this is how I do it:

take off
climbclimbclimbclimbclimb
Enter combat zone, hopefully above the enemy
Dive down (the La series can go surprisingly fast)
Turn to track my target
keep turn fighting untill you die, run out of ammo, run out of gas, or feel like you can get away from the fight and land.

Low level furballs are what the Russian planes excel at. German pilots were even told not to engage Russian planes without a chin oil cooler below 5,000m. (this was mostly for the Yak series, but with La's it applies as well.). Basically, just keep turning and turning.

TinyTim
07-22-2008, 04:08 AM
Like you found out, it's very hard to survive in this plane versus well flown blue opponents. I personally choose Yak over La any day and that's because of two reasons primarily:

1. Yaks can dive significantly better and they have better altitude performance than contemporary Lavochkin, the very two characteristics that hinder La so much.

2. Blue pilots generally underestimate Yak capabilities because it's a disliked plane and not many pilots know how to fly it. That's why many blue pilots approach it overconfident, but a well flown Yak-9 or Yak-1b can both, outturn and outrun a G2 at low altitude.

Remember that FN version has much better performance than F, which is almost the same as ordinary La-5 (down low their performance is identical, but La-5F has supercharger set to other alt than La5). La-5FN can do 590 kph TAS at ground level! La5 and La5F only 557.

If you somehow manage to force one to make a mistake and give up his E advantage, you can run him down and finish him.

TinyTim
07-22-2008, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PanzerAce:
Dive down (the La series can go surprisingly fast)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that can be misleading. Yes, La5FN can go incredible fast in a level flight at low altitude, but it's terminal dive speed is utterly low, being only around 700kph (compare that with 900kph for Fw190). La series are one of the worst divers. Actually I can't remember any other single engined post 42 fighter that would disintegrate so soon... late zeros and Ki-43 maybe.

rnzoli
07-22-2008, 05:27 AM
no, it's true, the la5 dives surprisingly well, after both wings are left behind at 720 km/h...it's a bit shaky up to that point, but with only the fuselage remaining, it can overtake a P47 on a downhill race at any day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RegRag1977
07-22-2008, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
no, it's true, the la5 dives surprisingly well, after both wings are left behind at 720 km/h...it's a bit shaky up to that point, but with only the fuselage remaining, it can overtake a P47 on a downhill race at any day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Also note that a burning fuel tank can give some extra propulsive effect. So don't hesistate to dive to escape any Luftwaffe aircraft...

BAG.LordDante
07-22-2008, 06:47 AM
The fire is also a good warningsignal for your teammates to stay away !
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But serious now... the only thing it can do is to fly straight fast or turn slow, tight and low
do i get this right ?
no sissors, no high or low yoyos?
There is no secret trick to turn it into a devastating uber plane that rules the skys over
russia ?
no ?

ok, then im not such a noob after all ( phew ) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

JadehawkII
07-22-2008, 07:43 AM
From someone who knows this bird and flies it more than anything else, I can tell you you guys are using it all wrong. The Yak 1's and 9's in my opinion are far worse than the La5, La7 series. You just don't go max diving like that's the only way to fight in this bird, No and No and again No. However, you can BnZ very well in this if you know the limits and stay within them and I can tell most of you are inexperienced flying this and it shows. Keep in mind, this is not a high altitude plane and was not designed that way either. They did most of their fighting within 4000 meters of the ground closer to the troops as that was part of the Soviet combat doctrine. So the best way you can fly this is through TEAM WORK. That's how they did it in WWII and you should too. Fly and fight alone and your dead.

Yes it's a good TnB fighter and as you said, most of the seasoned Fw-190 pilots are smart enough not to engage or get trapped in one. If you can get an opponent into a TnB then take advantage of it and nail his/hers butt. Another point I want to make is making active use of the combat flaps which I do more flying the La5 series than any other airplane. It does respond better but if you use then too much and at the wrong time, you would be better off not using them at all.

Lastly, I would suggest you fly more to gain experience flying this and YES your gonna have your butt handed to ya until you learn how best to use this plane. So quit hiding behind that Uber Fw-190 and strap on a La-5FN.
If you need more help, I know for a fact in the past this came up many times. Try the search function and you should fine more threads about fighting in this airplane.

Bottom line is, the Fw-190 can be beat...if you know what your doing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Metatron_123
07-22-2008, 09:13 AM
There was a time when people were wondering how to beat the La-5FN! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-22-2008, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Metatron_123:
There was a time when people were wondering how to beat the La-5FN! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. There was a time the La5fn was slated as the easy `noob` plane. Every axis pilot hated it and did everything to try and pork it via Oleg.

I still fly the La5fn a lot and see it as the Eastern front `Spitfire` I enjoy it so well. No FW190 has a chance when I`m in that... well not often.

How things change.

DKoor
07-22-2008, 09:30 AM
Just bounce someone for heck sake... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
With a good performance plane (+nice weapons too) such is LA-5 you shouldn't have a problem downing everything that flies.
Those ShVAK cannons should be always used to max advantage in a term that you should hit most of the times when you have opportunity during scissors (that is what axis guys often use), with a few holes in wings scissor maneuver becomes noticeably harder to perform.
Also when they try to run, I can assure you up to 600m and more you can hit them hard with those cannons, regardless of the server settings (or offline) you fly at.

Recently I shot down three 109's online although I'm not really versed to this fighter and in spite of the fact that my adversaries weren't exactly newbies (spit vs 109 server guys). I bounced first one - shot it down, then two others, his buddies bounced me in turn, shot one of my ailerons off and I still managed to shot both of them down.

This fighter delivers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

LEXX_Luthor
07-22-2008, 09:35 AM
Good stuff Jade.

I always thought of La-5 series, or Spitfire, is what the Zero should have been, although the Zero's actual characteristics allowed fantastic long range which saw it in multiple places at one time (without re-basing to new airfields), while Spit and La both suffered short range. I'd be interested in accounts of using La-5 vs Zero.

The second greatest story never told was Japan vs Soviets starting about 1940, a story never possible to tell until Pacific Fighters merged with Forgotten Battles. Now its possible to tell the story. Some interesting plane matchups possible there, and with modding, some fascinating maps are possible in the very far East.


JadeHawk:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You just don't go max diving like that's the only way to fight in this bird, No and No and again No. However, you can BnZ very well in this if you know the limits and stay within them and I can tell most of you are inexperienced flying this and it shows. Keep in mind, this is not a high altitude plane and was not designed that way either. They did most of their fighting within 4000 meters of the ground closer to the troops as that was part of the Soviet combat doctrine. So the best way you can fly this is through TEAM WORK. That's how they did it in WWII and you should too. Fly and fight alone and your dead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The greatest story never told is LeMay vs Savitskiy, starting about 1947. This story remains impossible to tell in any of The Sims. Although Luthier Korea screenshots do show us an F-82 which is something new in computer gaming. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

RegRag1977
07-22-2008, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Exactly. There was a time the La5fn was slated as the easy `noob` plane. Every axis pilot hated it [...]

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif It's still true as far as i know: it's still considered as a noob plane, and for good reasons in my humble opinion: apart from high speed dives and very high alt fight, you can't do much wrong with this powerful, fast, agile, well armed/armoured aircraft.

BAG.LordDante
07-22-2008, 10:31 AM
ok i will be more acurate !
How to win a dogfight in a La 5f or fn against a ME 109 G2 or FW 190 A5

What does it better than those two ?

Korolov1986
07-22-2008, 10:37 AM
The La-5FN climbs well, accelerates better than most planes, and has a turning ability out of this world. Against LW planes, you simply need to lure them into a vertical turning fight or a horizontal turning flight. Both of those will work eventually because LW planes will be unable to both match your turning capability and climbing ability at the same time.

Also, the La-5FN will not snap-stall like every other plane in the game. You can jerk the stick all you want at speeds above 240kmh and it will not wing over like the Fw-190 or Bf-109 will.

JG53Frankyboy
07-22-2008, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BAG.LordDante:
ok i will be more acurate !
How to win a dogfight in a La 5f or fn against a ME 109 G2 or FW 190 A5

What does it better than those two ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

il2compare is very acurate in comparison of these three planes.

And the La5F/FN have a very good around view.

realy its only bad point, in comparison, is its relativ low max dive speeds.

JtD
07-22-2008, 11:29 AM
In a La-5FN, your dogfight direction should usually be downwards. The plane has best performance there and generally a not so great climb rate, so it will suffer in climbing fights. In this plane I don't dogfight G-2 above 3000 meters, if I happen to meet them there, I drag them down in a fast shallow dive.

All German planes bleed more E in a turn.
The 109's controls get heavier at high speed than the La-5FN's.
Against a Fw just make sure you don't overshoot, at low alt you're better than him at everything.
Check your six more often than you do in blue planes, they need a way shorter firing time than red ones.
Don't go for snapshots, the firepower is insufficient. You'll need a good burst on target.

Eventually, you forfeit the initiative but have the better dogfighter. If you fly high, almost all German planes are faster and better climbing than you. Thus they have the initiative, can decide if and how to engage. If you fly low, they are higher, so they can decide if and how to engage. For me, that's the main problem.

Personally I'm getting my best results when flying between 2000-3000 meters. Usually means the other guy comes in high. I then dive as fast as possible (&lt;720km/h IAS) and drag them down. I then turn, if they do, I'll continue and as my sustained turn is better, I'll get them. If they don't, they usually pull up. So will I, now on their six and fire. Usually from far away and miss, but it sometimes scares them and they start to maneuvre. Then I get them. If they climb up to stall speed, I'll level out and run. As my plane is faster than theirs at the low altitude I fight at, they need to dive rather steeply in order to catch up - and waste E in the process. Eventually, we repeat the above procedure, but they have less E now. Excluding lucky shots, it's down to who makes the first mistake and time is on my side. In particular if I don't run in a random direction but towards my base.

I think you need more stick time with the plane. Just learn to pull it hard. Coming from Fw, it is quite a transition.

TinyTim
07-22-2008, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BAG.LordDante:
ok i will be more acurate !
How to win a dogfight in a La 5f or fn against a ME 109 G2 or FW 190 A5

What does it better than those two ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's hard to say "that these two", because "these two", 190 and 109 are completely different birds. Anyway, here are some observations:

1. Down low FN is faster than both. G2 can do 540km/h, A5 can do 570km/h, La5FN can do 590km/h and La5F can do 557km/h.
However, G2 and A5 become faster than La5FN at altitude of about 2 to 3 km.

2. La fighters turn better than Fw190A5, but Bf-109G2 turns better than any of the Las!

3. La5FN climbs better than G2 and A5 but only very low, only to altitude of about 2 - 3 km! After that, G2 climbs better, and A5 climbs approximately equal to La5FN.
La5F climbs worse that G2 at all altitudes.

4. A5 and G2 have both much higher terminal dive velocity than La5F/FN. Don't follow them in a dive!

5. Pilot workload in La5F/FN is higher, because you have to manually take care of shifting supercharger (at an altitude of 3.500m) and adjusting mixture to get the most out of aircraft

6. La5F is significantly lagging behind La5FN in everything. FN is much better plane than F overall - always pick this one if possible.

Bottom line: Try to fight them as low as possible where your performance is best relative to theirs. This will probably not easy to achieve, as smart blue pilots won't come low. They will stay high where they completely outclass a La5F/FN.

Assuming you fly La5FN:
1. Versus A5: Try to draw a him into a close knife fight where you can easily shoot him down. Also, if he tries to run away, you can catch him because you are faster at the deck. (but again, watch out during diving, at 700kph your plane will start disintegrating!)

2. Do NOT try to turn fight versus a G2, because it turns slightly better (at slow speeds it will outturn even a SpitIX), and is also better in riding the stall. Instead pretend that you are running away, on the deck, picking up speed. He will not be able to follow, his max speed being 540 and yours 590. Then start zoomclimbing and fight him in vertical, where you should be able to kill him.

Obviously, despite all its advantages La5FN has two serious drawbacks: very poor altitude performance, and very poor terminal dive speed. Keep that in mind.

JtD
07-22-2008, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:

2. La fighters turn better than Fw190A5, but Bf-109G2 turns better than any of the Las! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at low altitudes. They may cut inside you, but in the sustained level turn below 1500m the La-5FN easily beats the G-2.

TinyTim
07-22-2008, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:

2. La fighters turn better than Fw190A5, but Bf-109G2 turns better than any of the Las! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at low altitudes. They may cut inside you, but in the sustained level turn below 1500m the La-5FN easily beats the G-2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say G2 will complete turn faster. What I ment by "turns better" is that it can turn tighter at slow speed, and achieve higher AoA - the very same thing that you stated - and I agree with you that FN is able to complete full circle faster than a G2, both flying at their respective optimal speed. A question remains tho how much of an advantage that really is for a FN, because G2 can turn tighter and gain a solution.

By my experience stall riding turning contest between these two flown by experienced flyers is quite a struggle, but with G2 more likely to come out on top. I have (when I was sure there is no other reds around) repeatedly defeated very experienced SpitIX pilot in a G2 in a 1v1 match that evolved into turning contest. Likewise I got my **** handed to me in the majority of the occasions when I tried turning versus a well flown G2 in a FN.

Turning in a La-5FN versus G2 is not the best option anyway, since you do not use the characteristic of your plane that is truly superior to a G2 - level speed. (given fight is at low alt)

JadehawkII
07-22-2008, 10:31 PM
I have turned tighter than any of the Bf-109's. Take note of my use of combat flaps and remember, when and how to use them in a turn makes a big difference. I have been able to cut inside them with ease and squirt off a burst that will knock em out of the turn and if they are not on their toes, they will end up crashing or in a stall. Just a few in the wings or engine is all it's needed.
Having said that, if you dont know what your doing when you use the combat flaps, your gonna end up losing too much E and then your opponent will trun the tables on you. But remember, the Bf-109's lose E far more faster than the La-5FN in a turn. That's why you will never see a seasoned veteran Bf-109 pilot engage a La-5FN or La-7 in a turn fight as it's not their game.

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WTE_Galway
07-22-2008, 11:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Metatron_123:
There was a time when people were wondering how to beat the La-5FN! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah I can remember the whines when it came out as well. Oleg was basically accused of pro-Russian bias and cheating.

Unless the FM has been drastically changed it seems to me the new online dogfight crowd might be a bit spoilt by flasher rides http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BAG.LordDante
07-23-2008, 01:40 AM
Ok thats the info i wanted !

thx guys ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

And NOW : practise practise practise...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

chunkydora
07-23-2008, 03:15 AM
Especially heed the advice of HadeHawkII and JtD. They know what they are talking about. And PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!

TinyTim
07-23-2008, 03:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JadehawkII:
I have turned tighter than any of the Bf-109's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Frankly, I have on several occasions outturned a La5FN with a FW and take off flaps (especially when I jammed them, and had no other option http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Thy were so surprised to see me turning with them, that they got confused and tried to run or reversed the turn insted of tightening the turn, using flaps themselves.

Question is: are you able to turn tighter than G2 in your FN consistently, versus even the most experienced pilots?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JadehawkII:Take note of my use of combat flaps and remember, when and how to use them in a turn makes a big difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When turning really tight, at around 160kph, (where using takeoff and even landing flaps if needed, is imperative), G2 will come out on top.

DKoor
07-23-2008, 04:38 AM
This all depends really on the initiative.
And the initial positions.
Speaking from my own personal experience, G2 is really pretty much a dead meat vs FN, especially in turn.
However, G2 has, as TinyTim pointed out ability to cut inside - and the experienced players know that.

That's why they sometimes get involved in such close up melee with Lavochkins and even win vs seasoned players. But really unless they cut inside in first loop or two they stood no real chance because FN will (rather slowly, controlled) outturn and outrun them afterwards.

On altitude Germans have an advantage and they will probably damage/shot down Lavochkin thru series of close maneuvers and cutting inside.
Things pretty much reverse closer to the deck.
G2 is a fighter with capability, and on low/medium speed posses extraordinary capabilities "outturning" (more like cutting inside in prolonged turnfights I give rats **** on G2 vs Spitfire or even Lavochkin) Spitfires isn't rare thing to see online.
Very agile fighter.

K_Freddie
07-23-2008, 06:13 AM
Having flown all of the above, I can say that... at low and slow, the BF and FW are very stable platforms compared to the Yak and LA.

Not that one is better than the other, but the Russian planes in these conditions, are very 'twitchy' and require a lot more work to keep them in the air.

In this situation the best bet for the Yak/LA, is to turn climb at stall speed - This is where they hold the advantage over the Axis planes.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

TinyTim
07-23-2008, 06:16 AM
Exactly DKoor, G2 should be dead meat IF:
1. it doesn't have a substantial alt advantage,
2. the fight is below 4km (12kfeet)
3. La5FN pilot uses his superior level speed (50kph more), his superior climb, and his superior turn rate at high-ish speeds.

Actually the only thing I'd change personally in your post would be replacing the "low/medium" with "extremely low".

To back up my claims, I went searching for numerous tracks that I piled up during the years only to horrorly find out they are all gone after my recent formatting... since I forgot to back them up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

However, I managed to find this one from some mail attachment.

It's a 1v1 duel on UKD2 with me in a G2 and a SpitfireIXc, flown by, in my opinion one of the top 3 spitfire pilots that I know. Exactly the same argumen about "which plane turns better" lead us to this duel. We started head on at 3k, with lights on, no guns on first pass, and then fights starts. It lasts some 5 minutes! Not just a single "cut in", I was able to stay inside the spit turning for most of the time.

Track. (http://files.filefront.com/TTvsNSrar/;11183996;/fi)

I was able to defeat him this way consistently, this was not a single instance.

I am more than willing to repeat this scenario versus anyone in a La5FN since I consider it to be "not as hard as Spit" (and by no means "easy") to fight it in this kind of fight.

(note: download, unpack, copy to your /records folder, run the sim, go to view the tracks, view "TTvsNS.ntrk")

FatCat_99
07-23-2008, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:

It's a 1v1 duel on UKD2 with me in a G2 and a SpitfireIXc, flown by, in my opinion one of the top 3 spitfire pilots that I know. Exactly the same argumen about "which plane turns better" lead us to this duel. We started head on at 3k, with lights on, no guns on first pass, and then fights starts. It lasts some 5 minutes! Not just a single "cut in", I was able to stay inside the spit turning for most of the time.

Track. (http://files.filefront.com/TTvsNSrar/;11183996;/fi)

I was able to defeat him this way consistently, this was not a single instance.

I am more than willing to repeat this scenario versus anyone in a La5FN since I consider it to be "not as hard as Spit" (and by no means "easy") to fight it in this kind of fight.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even think about it, that will end up with same result as your fight with Arnie. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FC

TinyTim
07-23-2008, 08:35 AM
So, you are up for it then, FC? You already know what the result will be, so what can you loose? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FatCat_99
07-23-2008, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
So, you are up for it then, FC? You already know what the result will be, so what can you loose? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have some PC problems lately but if you make a mission on one of those empty maps it might be possible.

FC

DKoor
07-23-2008, 09:34 AM
You guys are nuts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

JtD
07-23-2008, 10:10 AM
There wasn't much sustained turning in that track. When there was, the Spit outturned the 109.

TinyTim
07-23-2008, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
I have some PC problems lately but if you make a mission on one of those empty maps it might be possible.

FC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh my God, I was sure you are gonna say nay...
Anyway, PM sent http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
You guys are nuts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure! We are all simmers, duh! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
There wasn't much sustained turning in that track. When there was, the Spit outturned the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Call it what you want, a well flown spit got outmaneouvered and shot down by a 109G2 in a close turning dogfight. I never claimed G2 could sustain turn better (what's "better" anyway, turn radius, turn rate, rate of E bleed in turns,...?). I claimed G2 is better in a close, low speed turning fight. OK, better than a FN and maybe somewhat on a par with SpitIX.

Yes, the spit outturned my 109 at some point but that was only due to the fact that I had my flaps jammed in a takeoff position from very soon - which didn't bother me in turning as I'd use them anyway - but consequently I couldn't accelerate much and bled E like hell whenever not in turn.

I also got many more fire solutions through entire fight than him, but due to my utterly bad shooting I didn't manage to hit him till the very end. He hit me on the only firing solution he had - fortunately for me not fataly.

Problem I see in this debates is that people tend to change
I have, flying plane A, once outturned plane B
into
Plane A easily outturns plane B.
(Note the "once" and "easily")

Same mistake RL pilots are making, considering that there is much less of those who were outturned.

Grrr I'm still mad about not backing up other similar tracks where I didn't jam flaps or get outturned or hit at any point, especially those versus Las. http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/images/smilies/wall.gif

na85
07-23-2008, 12:12 PM
I'll guinea-pig for you. Can't say I've ever flown a lavochkin before, though.

JtD
07-23-2008, 12:46 PM
Nto to bash the other pilot, but basically he was flying scissors in front of you while you were flying straight.

He does a 180? to the right, you do 90?, he loses his nerves and does a split s. 90? advantage - gone. He comes up from the split-s, starting to turn left. You're still in the split-s, simply roll and are still behind him. etc.

When he used the maneuvre his plane was clearly better at, he beat your plane.

JtD
07-23-2008, 01:04 PM
Found a track where I fight vs a G-2. I used sustained turns and beat him. If anything, I had more fuel and the dude isn't a bad pilot.

Might be a good track for you to watch as well, Dante.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/5FNvsG2.ntrk

TinyTim
07-23-2008, 07:23 PM
*holds a tissue to his bleeding nose*

Ok, this didn't go as planned. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fatcat flying La5FN beat me flying 109G2 3:0 in the slow, turning fight at low level.

Than we switched the rides... he beats me again 2:1 lol. Every fight lasted at least couple of minutes, with many firing solutions for both of us. I guess I got really rusty in a year-long break...

So, the only thing we actually proved is that I'm a lousy pilot (dang, why did they remove the hammer smiley). Majority of my problems emerging from a fact I didn't manage my E well enough and that I was shooting like crap (which means I got firing solutions anyway - but to be frank usually they were hard to realise).

Anyway, since the only kill I got was in a 5FN and not in a G2, I am taking back what I said about G2 being superior. They seem to me an extremely close match down low in a sharp, high AoA, maneouvering combat, maybe indeed the FN having uper hand for a tiny bit.

Unfortunately I forgot to record the tracks (took only first one, but the map reset inbetween each of fights).

And a big S~ to FatCat! It was a real pleasure to fight such a skilled pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


JtD, I watched the track. Impressive! The G2 offered some puny resistance although I must question the skill of the pilot because he tried to outclimb you, having considerably lower initial E which was obvious from the track - no wonder you caught him when he was on the peak of the climb). The G-6 didn't stand a chance once alone...
But still, much much more than sustained turn you used your far superior level speed and climb to build E advantage (the very things I am claiming to be superior and to be used when in a La5 from the beginning). You also traveled quite some km during fighting (to pick up speed and to climb), while I didn't (on the posted track). Your average turn rate on the track is far below mine. Your average speed on that track was faaaar greater than the one on mine. and AFAIK we were discussing slow speed fighting here...

So somehow I fail to see the grounds of the claim that you did use sustained turns, and that I didn't. (Again, yes you turned sharply just before you killed the G2, but he was on a top of a straight climb, which he entered with less E than you. If that's outturning...).

And, actually I wouldn't like to hear an explanation from you, because I'm afraid it might be just another mocking short nerved biased bashing (wonder who'd you call me that time), but an opinion from a third party if there is anyone interested in these tracks anyway, which I doubt.

JtD
07-23-2008, 11:39 PM
At 3:00 in the track I start a left turn, 180?, wait until the 109 followed through, then I start a right turn, which goes on for about 3 and a half turns at the end of which I have a firing solution on the G-2 which started on my tail. Yes, it helped that he pulled up there and it helped again when he pulled up a second time a few seconds later. 3 and a half turns is still more sustained turning than there was in your track, the maximum I found there is about 3 turns which was when the Spitfire outturned your G-2. Before that, there were usually turns of 180? to 360?, but freely distributed over vertical and horizontal planes, thus allowing the pursuing aircraft shortcuts.
Interestingly, my opponent had more E for quite a while. Even close to the end you can see that he was co level and pulling away from me before split-sing and zooming up. After the split s my E was better. I must have gained in in the 230? turn involved in the maneuvre.
The first three minutes of the track are there to show Dante what to do:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally recommended by JtD:
Personally I'm getting my best results when flying between 2000-3000 meters. Usually means the other guy comes in high. I then dive as fast as possible (&lt;720km/h IAS) and drag them down. I then turn, if they do, I'll continue and as my sustained turn is better, I'll get them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A bit different here, as their altitude wasn't the problem, but their numbers. So I just ran, basically level. They followed, I turned, I got them. The turning part thus doesn't start before 3 minutes into the track.
My turning speed was close to the best turning speed for the La-5FN, which is the key to the thing. If I go at these 310...350 km/h, the G-2 will not outturn me, meaning it cannot maintain the rate of turn I can maintain. It will, however, be able to cut inside in the first phases of the turn, but will sacrifice E in order to do so. And when it's done doing that, it's done. Unless it got a firing solution and hit. I think that turning at your planes best turning speed is slow speed fighting. No point in going slower if it doesn't help.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...another mocking short nerved biased bashing (wonder who'd you call me that time)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg you pardon? Who/what have I called you so far?

Chevy350
07-24-2008, 12:34 AM
could someone give me a good rundown of the la5? i cant really find a bunch of good info on it. like best climb rate and like what altitudes and speeds for certain prop pitches and fuel mixtures? i am trying to learn complex engine manegment and im ok with it but stil dont fully understand when to change everything. right now this is pretty much the only plane i fly so i only need info for this. thanks

WTE_Galway
07-24-2008, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chevy350:
could someone give me a good rundown of the la5? i cant really find a bunch of good info on it. like best climb rate and like what altitudes and speeds for certain prop pitches and fuel mixtures? i am trying to learn complex engine manegment and im ok with it but stil dont fully understand when to change everything. right now this is pretty much the only plane i fly so i only need info for this. thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not really my bird so take this with a pinch of salt ....

Stage 2 supercharger at 3500m
80% mixture around 5000 m or so
best climb/glide speed 260 kmh
best turn speed is about 300 for the F and 315 for the FN

JtD
07-24-2008, 02:51 AM
In the La-5 you best change charger gear at 4500 meters. You need to do that a bit higher than with the later models (F,FN). You can set mixture to 70% at take off, it doesn't have any drawbacks. So much for the complex engine management.
I usually fly rads open and pitch 100%, as long as you go fast not literally on the deck you can fly full power without overheating.

Going fast is a good idea anyway, because of the hun in the sun.

The bird climbs best about about 250 km/h IAS. But the climb rate is not good. In fact, even a 109 G-6 will outclimb you on most altitudes.

BAG.LordDante
07-24-2008, 05:09 AM
soooooo after some PRACTICE http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
im getting it: KEEP IT LOW !
and aim with less deflection.

Sokol__1
07-24-2008, 07:21 AM
From Frugalsworld, a example of how put springs in U-Join:

http://users.accesscomm.ca/9thumbs/u-joint.jpg

http://users.accesscomm.ca/9thumbs/u-joint+electronics.jpg

http://users.accesscomm.ca/9thumbs/floor-mount3.jpg

Sokol1

na85
07-24-2008, 07:57 AM
I think perhaps sokol1 is in the wrong thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JtD, how do you figure out the best turn speed for a certain aircraft?

DKoor
07-24-2008, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chevy350:
could someone give me a good rundown of the la5? i cant really find a bunch of good info on it. like best climb rate and like what altitudes and speeds for certain prop pitches and fuel mixtures? i am trying to learn complex engine manegment and im ok with it but stil dont fully understand when to change everything. right now this is pretty much the only plane i fly so i only need info for this. thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You have a document named Aircraft Guide.pdf in your IL-2 installation folder, it explains pretty much everything. JtD's advice regarding fuel mixture is nice, you certainly have one thing less to think about.

About prop pitch you don't have to change it, you gain nothing regarding performance. However, you can gain the opportunity to cool engine thru dive while not loosing much speed which is a nice thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .
So you can use it thru this 'maneuver'.

K_Freddie
07-24-2008, 05:25 PM
(give the movie upload at least 3 hrs from time of this post)

Most of you have probably seen this.. but for the 'rookies'
Here's a LA-v-FW190 (51MB) (http://htttp://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/UsAndThem.avi) movie.

I love it when people refer to a/c charts and graphs - welcome to the real world
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ICDP
07-24-2008, 06:19 PM
If you are flying the La5-FN and your opponent is flying a Bf109G6 (or G6 Late) then at no time does the 109 have a speed advantage. Down low the La5-FN has a major advantage and it drops to about parity at around 4200m. The two have fairly similar speeds all the way to 10000m.

So if you are flying a 109G6 don't make the mistake of thinking you have a big advantage the higher you go. All you can hope for is parity, apart from in a prolonged dive.