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View Full Version : Oleg, will there be any more improvements to AI?



XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 09:58 PM
S~!

The AI has been greatly improved in how it reacts and responds in air combat, but unfortunately the AI seems to lack some basic piloting skills. I have a track recorded that shows a Veteran AI P-40M going in to ditch in a field with engine dying. The AI did its flare-out about 20 meters above the ground, then stalled and crashed. Maybe just have a "switch" in the code to turn off the flare-out routine when engine is damaged? I would be happy to send in my track if anyone is interested. BTW this is in FB 1.21.

S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 09:58 PM
S~!

The AI has been greatly improved in how it reacts and responds in air combat, but unfortunately the AI seems to lack some basic piloting skills. I have a track recorded that shows a Veteran AI P-40M going in to ditch in a field with engine dying. The AI did its flare-out about 20 meters above the ground, then stalled and crashed. Maybe just have a "switch" in the code to turn off the flare-out routine when engine is damaged? I would be happy to send in my track if anyone is interested. BTW this is in FB 1.21.

S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2003, 08:37 PM
S! Just wondering. Lots of people making observations on AI behaviour. Since the majority of people play off-line, this would seem to be something worthy of dev. attention. Also, AI for level bombers (i.e. B-17), is it the same as for Stuka? They don't hold formation like they did in real life.

Thanks for listening!

S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 01:57 AM
Please no!......I'm getting my as* kicked enough now...

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 02:51 AM
Buz, I don't think they are asking for improvements to the way they fight persay...the AI is actually very very good at doing that. Its combat abilities are second to none. Its the other things like holding formation during bombing runs, attempting to belly land instead of flaring and stalling, that sort of thing.

The way that the AI fights is excellent...leave it alone! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2003, 10:34 PM
no way

the AI SHOULD be fixed, at least on some points

First of all, sometimes, they just forget that there is a dogfight or combat or whatever. even when bullets hit their plane they wont even take evasive maneuvers. Easy kill

Second, the friendly AI keeps on shooting burning planes!!!

For now, it is more dangerous to attack a single bomber that to engage combat against fighters, even vets or aces

oh yes one last thing, the AI doesnt correct shooting angles, they just keep wasting ammo instead of correcting it. So the trick is, just let all ennemies waste their ammo on you while you perform a slight turn, then shoot em down when they ignore the bullets that hit their planes

Voila

...

pls fix the AI /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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LuftKuhMist
12-18-2003, 12:55 PM
I agree with my collegue Aeroburst, the AI is one of the most important things to fix.

1: I get shot down by my wingmen more often than by ennemy fighters.

2: They CAN'T deflection shoot at all.

3: Changing formations in flight often ends up in accidents.

4: They often IGNORE orders without event answering. Sometimes they simply forget the fight.

5: They steal kills, they shoot down burning wreckages.

6: Either they don't shoot on head on passes or they shoot and NEVER miss.

7: They often fly near-stall speed and still manage to pull acrobatics. I overpassed a diving messerschmitt 109 G6 exiting a dive in a lagg3. Next thing I knew he regained his speed magically AFTER I outpassed him. (this magic skill did not save his skin) I also saw a fw190 doing acrobatics at 500 meters 200KM/H... If I tried that I would be a smoking crater in no time.

8: Bomber gunners are too accurate, often got my engine busted after a head-on pass on a B17 formation. This tactic was used by the luftwaffe because the gunners weren't able to aim at a 800KM/H moving target, in IL2FB, 25% of the time your engine is damaged or busted.

9: Bombers don't stay in formation. I can understand a DB3 doing evasive manoeuvers.... but a PE8 or a B17 is absolutely ridiculous. This, with the deadly accurate gunners, is absolutely frustrating and makes bombers more dangerous than fighters.

That's all I can think of for now but everytime I play I have new examples of stupidity.

Anyway I am not a programmer but there must be a way to fix that without decreasing frame rate. Maybe make the bomber routines less complicated in favor of the fighters? At least make the fighters do realistic manoeuvers?

269GA-Maxmars
12-18-2003, 05:07 PM
Agreed.. If you know the "tricks", it's almost impossible to be shot down by a fighter. "Almost" because they may take you by surprise.

Re: bombers.. I think the increased accuracy makes somewhat up for the lack of huge formations of such big birds. I would surely like to see them perform as they should, in terms of maneuvers they can pull off.

LuftKuhMist
12-18-2003, 10:30 PM
That said the game is the best sim I've ever played despite the stupidity of the AI, I still have a lot of fun flying.

But a challenging dogfight would be great sometimes, no?

Ah and I forgot also, AI sees through clouds and when gunners hit you it's 75% of the time in the engine or cockpit.

LuftKuhMist
12-20-2003, 01:23 PM
I can't believe people here argue more on a stupid P51 landing gear than on AI, come on it's the heart of single player gaming!

By the way, I got my butt shot by my wingman again.

WhtBoy
12-20-2003, 01:41 PM
One of the easiest fixes for some AI problems would be to have them bail out more often. It seems that they try and ditch all too often, especially considering that they totally suck at ditching. Unles you're out of alt, ditching a damaged aircraft is MUCH more dangerous than bailing out. If you have time to set up a ditch, you probably have time to bail out.

A heavily smoking engine can quickly lead to a fire. In the real world, only an idiot would risk the chance of fire against bailing out when the bailing is good. Obviously, there are some mitigating circumstances such as location of friendly lines, will the canopy open, etc., but, all in all most people would jump.

I haven't tested it but aside from fixing the pathetic ditch attempts, it might also prevent the AI from shooting aircraft that are obviously going down if the pilot has bailed. Of course, if the pilot is dead in the cockpit it won't help but I've seen many AI's diving in flames level out and try to ditch.

-WhtBoy.

Recon_609IAP
12-20-2003, 01:42 PM
AI lacks good bnz techniques

S!
609IAP_Recon

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BillyRayBobJoe
12-20-2003, 02:54 PM
AI don't respond to shots fired, but gunsight positioning of the player. That's annoying, you can manouver kill them when out of ammo just by placing the sight constantly over them. They'll go beserk indefinitly over this and eventually crash. A human would figure your out of ammo in 30 seconds and go offensive on you. This is an exploit and you see guys using it in coops to slaughter AI for easy kills.

In single play, one is far safer having an Ace or Vet on your six, they're no threat behind you. Out front it's a whole different game, they'll pluck your eyes out at extreme angles and ranges. That's simply silly, game is very weak in this department.

Wetwilly87
12-20-2003, 03:48 PM
Also dont forgot that the 5 AI will go after on fighter while the rest of the enemy fighters are raping your transports and you, this happens alot when transfering bases during the a Finnish campaign.

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p1ngu666
12-20-2003, 06:52 PM
my pet annoyance is the brake they nearly always do at 30-27, even if there blind to u
that, the no blackout etc
oh and certain levels of ace will not miss in a head on

LuftKuhMist
12-21-2003, 12:14 AM
AI seems to be able to break really fast and accelerate even faster. Pretty annoying...

Got shot down by a zero while flying a thunderbolt, reason was my wingman wasn't able to understand my order to COVER ME... he prefered to steal my kill...

Hmm I'd like to know how the AI makes decisions, to see if it's hard to make it better. Anyway for the shooting friendlies thing, maybe you could put a line pointing 500 meters in front of the fighter (or four, disposed as a cone) and if something not enemy comes through that line during an attack the AI could break attack or cease shooting. I know in many shooters it was used to check aiming... but then again... this is not a shooter.

Anyway in my point of view the ai is THE flaw of this game. This makes me an AI whiner?

tenmmike
12-21-2003, 05:27 AM
BillyRayBobJoe...........haha is that your new name ray? LOL..ya got fish with a better luer the that......LOL ....i only hate the ai knowing my gun convergence and able to see me when im low on his 6....good post though rbj

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WWSandMan
12-21-2003, 10:46 AM
German -probably Russian as well- AI landing procedures could use some serious looking after. I lose most of the folks in my squadron on each campaign mission I fly. I don't know if it's related to how the final waypoint at landing is set up or what, but I've witnessed 109's drop flaps and gear and do a Stuka-style dive-bombing approach for landing. Needless to say, they don't pull out and wind up as smoking craters near the end of the runway.

Very frustrating to have a successful mission end with me as the only survivor from my unit because the AI pilots all crashed on their landing approach. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

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SKULLS_LZ
12-23-2003, 01:03 PM
Looks like there's at least a few hundred interested in this issue. In fact AI is *the one* aspect of FB that EVERYONE agrees on. Thanks in advance for your reply Oleg!

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clint-ruin
12-24-2003, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWSandMan:
German -probably Russian as well- AI landing procedures could use some serious looking after. I lose most of the folks in my squadron on each campaign mission I fly. I don't know if it's related to how the final waypoint at landing is set up or what, but I've witnessed 109's drop flaps and gear and do a Stuka-style dive-bombing approach for landing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the complaints in the thread so far, including this one, can be gotten around through using [and understanding] the wingman commandsm, and setting up the .mis sions properly.

I find it pretty amazing that DGen/DCG pull things like setting a high alt waypoint right before landing. Most people have it figured out inside a week of making missions that this doesn't work.

Same story with wingmen 'kill stealing' or fraticide. I would say - 99% of the time - 'rejoin', 'attack my target' set to a different padlocked target, or even a quick flick between 'cover me' and 'attack fighters' and back again will make them break off.

There are a lot of silly things the AI does - terrain avoidance in low level flights, energy conservation, and other basic flight/combat concepts could use a fair bit of polish. But a lot of them can be worked around, or at least worked around so they happen less often.

I would suggest that making wingmen AI in future sims 'robot' like in obeying every single command would be almost as bad as them ignoring the player totally. Part of what makes the games AI enjoyable, or at least a little less predictable, is that they make some fairly classic mistakes from time to time. Target fixation, pulling too tightly into turns and spinning out, not realising there's something behind them occasionally - all adds to the immersion, I think.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

plumps_
12-24-2003, 06:05 AM
In another forum Oleg said that we will soon get patch 1.22 with improved AI behaviour.

http://oldsite.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=006236;p=2

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Collisions: In 1.22 patch, that will be released soon we did all possible with current AI system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-----------------------------------
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warriorbear
12-24-2003, 06:28 AM
I would like to see a RANDOM choice.

not every pilot in each group were vets or aces.

warriorbear

clint-ruin
12-24-2003, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by warriorbear:
I would like to see a RANDOM choice.

not every pilot in each group were vets or aces.

warriorbear<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This could easily be done, even just by editing the text file yourself.

Eg.

[usa0100]
Planes 4
Skill0 3
Skill1 1
Skill2 3
Skill3 2
skin0 5406-P47D-11HoytsHoss.bmp
skin1 Capt Quirk unmarked P47D10.bmp
skin2 5609-P47D-4FireyGingerIV.bmp
skin3 Capt Quirk unmarked P47D10.bmp
numberOn0 0
Class air.P_47D22
Fuel 50
weapons tank

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

LuftKuhMist
12-24-2003, 02:10 PM
Wingmen are terribly impotent... often I have seen my wingman doing acrobatics to keep up with me but neglecting covering my six. I simply don't count on wingmen when I fight with the AI, I consider him as a non shooting plane flying with me. Number 3 I consider him as a flying danger for me when I line up on my victim.

LEXX_Luthor
12-24-2003, 02:48 PM
I rarely communicate with wingmen, but I do notice that in big dogfights the AI wingmen do defend their leader, although sometimes too late. Again, AI perform much better in big dogfights, I guess mostly because you can't make much sense out of all the happenings. Put like this in a big dogfight the player is confused and so is lowered to the level of AI. This works out pretty good.


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LuftKuhMist
12-27-2003, 02:25 PM
Bah they defend their wingmen but often neglect them. They often collide. Try changing formations in flight, you might loose someone. Or escort slow planes such as ME323, your flight will behave erratically and often this will lead in 4 planes lost in collisions.

In dogfights, check what YOUR wingman is doing. Not much actually.

Anyway what I don't understand is that folks just don't seem to care... but they DO care a LOT about a stupid landing gear, strut or something on their fanboy pick of the day plane.

Sincerely, the only thing I'd like to have changed is AI. Sure this or that plane is not 100% like reality, but it will never be, and this game is the closest thing we have now! With THIS range of planes, weapons and theaters, it would be great to kill and be killed by something else than dozens of ******fliegers?

clint-ruin
12-27-2003, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuftKuhMist:

In dogfights, check what YOUR wingman is doing. Not much actually.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By default, your wingman will try to stay in formation with you and 'cover' you, without actually doing much. Standard orders like "attack fighters" to either your flight or the whole squadron will not apply to your wingman, or indeed, most of the flights wingmen. Notice how in a 4 plane formation, the order "cover me" is always rejected by plane number 4 if plane number 3 is still active? Right :>

Orders like "attack flak" or "attack bombers" will apply to each plane in the flight seperately, though. They can be picky about what they want to do depending on what enemies are in range and what their fuel/ammo/etc state is at the time. It's just a matter of experience watching them to work out what they're likely to do.

You are going to need to tell your wingman - actively - to engage a particular target. Your wingman is supremely effective at disrupting enemy attacks regardless of his skill level - AIs that realise they're in another planes sights will very often break off whatever attack they're currently doing. Use padlock to designate a target for your wingman - preferably whoever's on your 6 at the time - and watch him go to work when you give the order to attack your target.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

LuftKuhMist
12-27-2003, 03:47 PM
Yeah, THAT I know, number 2 covers 1 and 4 covers 3... the thing is that their cover isn't worth a wooden nickle.

I got attacked successively by two P51, meaning I could not get rid of one without the other pounding me... but my wingman just flew happily and watched this happen. What a cover! he should have at least engaged ONE of the P51. Even when one of the P51 was flying alongside him he did NOT do anything despite my relentless orders... anyway if you care to know how the fight ended, my LA7 was damaged but I managed to kill the two bastards... (LA7 vs P51 for a simili Corea)

ZG77_Lignite
12-27-2003, 03:58 PM
Quoted above
"Anyway what I don't understand is that folks just don't seem to care... "

If it seems like I don't care, its because I don't have any of the troubles seemingly mentioned here.

I am rarely able to get more kills than my wingmen (please no comments about my competency, as I am reasonably capable). My '#2' wingman does exactly what I tell him, whether it be cover me, or attack the enemy, break, rejoin, I'd call him quite capable, if he was real.

I rarely if ever see collisions in my group, and since 1.21 I've been forced to TIGHTEN my formation, as they straggle over about 600m now, it looks like hell. Admittedly I only mainly Finger 4, with some Echelons, Line Abreast and Line Astern formations, depending upon the tactical situation.

Also I've been flying flight leader lately (consequence of a long campaign), but it did not seem particularly difficult to maintain a 'loose' formation with the group while escorting bombers, it is wholly necessary to do SOME sort of manuever, as most bombers in FB travel considerably slower than their contemporary fighter escorts.

Admittedly I have lost about 8 pilots (both vet and rookie) in my current Kursk campaign, most of which occur due to airfield under attack and forced to scramble (AI is a bit slow in getting off the ground in emergency), the only other losses (2, maybe 3) were lost due to enemy Ace action, my apologies as I am unable to remember the La5FN ace in question (but he was damn sharp).

Feel free to leave an email, I suppose I could save a track after a mission, for anyone that is skeptical.

LuftKuhMist
12-27-2003, 04:57 PM
Strange, I always get more kills than the AI, I am no ace pilot and I know at least one person who gets as much kills as I do.

LuftKuhMist
12-27-2003, 05:02 PM
Oh and the flight leader thing, I also am. Consequence of STARTING a long career unfinished and an absurdely high number of kills in 1942. Anyone over here hasn't been flight leader?!?

Anyway it has always been like that in any sim I guess.

(by the way even if not perfect the career is a big improvement over IL2)

SeaFireLIV
12-27-2003, 06:16 PM
Wow. Had a read of Oleg`s reply in SimHq. It`s quite detailed. It seems he responds alot in there. oes he like SimHQ better than UBI? I guess so.
I feel sorry for Oleg sometimes, he does seem to try and respond to every one and answer their problems. I just hope he realises he can`t please everybody- ever.

`Man is an embodied paradox, a bundle of contradictions.` Lacon.

LuftKuhMist
12-28-2003, 12:23 AM
Yeah, I have red it too.

Well it's true that the AI in FB is more challenging than in EAW or BOB or Mig Alley. In WWII Fighters it was quite challenging if I remember well but it wasn't a sim in the same sense as IL2.

The thing is that the way the AI fights makes some planes perform less than they were able to. They behave like ******s often, this is excusable I think. But sometimes they make impossible manoeuvers and they never keep their energy, I am quite tired of outpassing a messerschmitt exiting a dive in any plane.

Anyway... I have posted a lot here, I am quite a whiner, so I'll shut up now.

clint-ruin
12-28-2003, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuftKuhMist:
Yeah, I have red it too.

Well it's true that the AI in FB is more challenging than in EAW or BOB or Mig Alley. In WWII Fighters it was quite challenging if I remember well but it wasn't a sim in the same sense as IL2.

The thing is that the way the AI fights makes some planes perform less than they were able to. They behave like ******s often, this is excusable I think. But sometimes they make impossible manoeuvers and they never keep their energy, I am quite tired of outpassing a messerschmitt exiting a dive in any plane.

Anyway... I have posted a lot here, I am quite a whiner, so I'll shut up now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you're really whining here at all - there are inconsistencies in the AIs performance - but honestly, such a thing as a "non cheating" AI is very rare in computer games. Usually it's a function of turn based strategy games and other non-realtime things. In a lot of ways it's more expensive to limit what the AI can do than let it do 'unbelievable' things. Buglets like the AI missing its shots by a few degrees in slight turns are probably more a result of the code that makes the AI able to miss than code that makes the AI hit its shots.

Inside the limitations of FB, and in terms of its own consistency [reproducibility for track playback, making the AIs fight the same way regardless of where the camera is, running each plane within a reasonable degree of the planes performance envelope], FB does pretty well. There are certainly a few problem areas like ground avoidance, shooting, formation flying, etc, but they might not be fixable in the current system at a reasonable cost.

Making the AI avoid hills and mountains better will probably involve making it more 'aware' of what's in front of it .. every single metre in front that it scans for terrain avoidance has a cost in memory and CPU time. Let's say that problem is fixed at a cost of 5% more CPU time per plane ... sounds good? Something like that will absolutely assuredly guarantee 'performance whines' if it was done. "OLEG WHY DOES 1.22 RUN LIKE SH1TE!?!??" would become a fairly common topic from those who run the game at the 1.21 performance borderline. Other games can indeed run 'better' with more planes in the air, but it's a fairly sure bet the AIs don't have the same scope/performance/awareness that FBs ones do individually.

Making a sophisticated game - one that runs on a home PC at least - is a fairly intense juggling act.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

LuftKuhMist
12-28-2003, 12:53 PM
I know, I worked on some games.

But as a player these are my feedbacks... sincerely I don't really care if the planes do not handle 100% as the real ones. I have enjoyed many flight sims that were not really accurate, such as Red Baron II. I enjoy a lot IL2FB, that's the best ever if you ask me.

But the AI is predictable and I begin to know their routines pretty well. Another thing I don't understand is, for instance, you have an I16 turnfighting a BF109E... the I16 stops the turning suddently and begins manoeuvering to shake the 109 off him or just fly straight. Why? Personnally I would continue turning with the 109, eventually (pretty fast in fact) the I16 will have the upper hand. Often the AI will stop their attacks and begin to fly straight. They HAVE to retreat but they don't seem to choose the right moment at all.

SKULLS_LZ
12-30-2003, 03:50 PM
Citizen's Sticky he he http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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Yeah I vulched ya. Now put a cork in it and pick another base before I bust a c@p in your sorry @ss.