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Pigeon_
10-31-2007, 08:28 PM
So, today I was flying in a server with historic missions. I shot some guy's bomber up pretty bad and he was burning badly and just above the water. Later I found out I had killed his engines as wel, but I didn't know that at the time. I turned into him again and shot his wing off.

After his bomber fell into the water and just floated there for a minute, the guy hit refly and so his plane disappeared from the water. Then he started complaining about me shooting him while his plane was burning and he had no engines. He said I could at least had let him bail out (or ditch, I don't remember correctly). And that I was messing up his K/D (I'm guessing that's his kills to deaths ratio? He wouldn't tell me. He said that I should know when flying like I did).

Now, thinking this over myself, he couldn't have bailed at that altitude and ditching... well, isn't that what he did anyway in the end? I guess he was just a bit annoyed by me killing him for the second time in a row.

But that's not what this is about. I'd like to know if there's some sort of 'Code of Honour' that honourable pilots follow in these kind of situations? I always try to respect other pilots and fly with honour, so if there are any 'unwritten rules' I'd like to know them...

Some times, when my enemy is shot up badly or he's signaling with his lights, I stop firing and fly on his wing for a second and flash my lights. I'm not doing it much, because 1. I'm not a very god pilot and 2. After you brake away from him there's a 50% chance of him trying to take a shot at you! It has happened to me a couple of times that I was downed by the guy who's life I had just spared!

Anyway, in this particular case I decided to finish the bomber, because he had a <1% chance of surviving anyway. I thought it wouldn't matter...

Your thoughts on this please.

Pigeon_
10-31-2007, 08:28 PM
So, today I was flying in a server with historic missions. I shot some guy's bomber up pretty bad and he was burning badly and just above the water. Later I found out I had killed his engines as wel, but I didn't know that at the time. I turned into him again and shot his wing off.

After his bomber fell into the water and just floated there for a minute, the guy hit refly and so his plane disappeared from the water. Then he started complaining about me shooting him while his plane was burning and he had no engines. He said I could at least had let him bail out (or ditch, I don't remember correctly). And that I was messing up his K/D (I'm guessing that's his kills to deaths ratio? He wouldn't tell me. He said that I should know when flying like I did).

Now, thinking this over myself, he couldn't have bailed at that altitude and ditching... well, isn't that what he did anyway in the end? I guess he was just a bit annoyed by me killing him for the second time in a row.

But that's not what this is about. I'd like to know if there's some sort of 'Code of Honour' that honourable pilots follow in these kind of situations? I always try to respect other pilots and fly with honour, so if there are any 'unwritten rules' I'd like to know them...

Some times, when my enemy is shot up badly or he's signaling with his lights, I stop firing and fly on his wing for a second and flash my lights. I'm not doing it much, because 1. I'm not a very god pilot and 2. After you brake away from him there's a 50% chance of him trying to take a shot at you! It has happened to me a couple of times that I was downed by the guy who's life I had just spared!

Anyway, in this particular case I decided to finish the bomber, because he had a &lt;1% chance of surviving anyway. I thought it wouldn't matter...

Your thoughts on this please.

leitmotiv
10-31-2007, 08:34 PM
Code of honor in WWII? !!!!

You K.O.ed a bomber which you thought had a marginal chance of returning. You did the right thing.

VW-IceFire
10-31-2007, 08:40 PM
I'm pretty big on code of honour and treating each battle with a certain degree of respect for the other guy no matter who he (or she) is. That said this is not one of those moments. You crippled the target and made the decision to finish the target off and that I think was well within your bounds as a fighter pilot taking the battle to the enemy. Logistically you could have spent those bullets elsewhere but in terms of honour you had choice. He could bail out and ditching may or may not have been possible (I don't know).

Frankly his behavior and mention of his K/D ratio (that is indeed kill to death ratio) coupled with the insinuation that your behavior suggests that you would know what the K/D ratio means is hypocritical.

Personally I would have left the bomber to burn unless there were kill stealers about. Still I don't think at that stage it was a matter of honour and it was up to you to decide to finish the target off for good or let it try and run.

Kongo Otto
10-31-2007, 09:24 PM
The only Code of Honor i know is this one.
So for your little problem see Number 6. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
1. Legionnaire, you are a volunteer serving France faithfully and with honor.

2. Every legionnaire is your brother-at-arms, irrespective of his nationality, race or creed. You will demonstrate this by an unwavering and straightforward solidarity which must always bind together members of the same family.

3. Respectful of the Legion's traditions, honoring your superiors, discipline and camaraderie are your strength; courage and loyalty your virtues.

4. Proud of your status as a legionnaire, you will display this pride, by your turnout, always impeccable; your behaviour, ever worthy, though modest; your living-quarters, always tidy.

5. As an elite soldier, you will train vigorously, you will maintain your weapon as if it were your most precious possession, you will keep your body in the peak of condition, always fit.

6. A mission once given to you becomes sacred to you, you will accomplish it to the end and at all cost.

7. In combat, you will act without relish of your task, or hate. You will respect the vanquished enemy and will abandon neither your wounded nor your dead, nor will you under any circumstances surrender your arms.

Rjel
10-31-2007, 09:32 PM
I wonder when people take this sim so seriously, does it become more work than fun? If so, what enjoyment do they get from it?

Widowmaker214
10-31-2007, 09:34 PM
Messing up his K/D ratio?

What a crock. I mean.. if its that important to him, than he should strictly fly fighters at 30,000 feet and only attack old women in biplanes.

You are in a fighter aircraft.

Your job is to destroy the enemy.

Period.

He has no right to expect you to do ANYTHING other than blow him out of the sky.

If he expects anything else, he needs to go play world of warcraft or something and make magic leather belts.

Bombers can and do fly quite a good distance with heavy damage. You are not just within your rights to drop his bird.. its what you are expected to do.
Otherwise.. why even shoot at him in the first place?

Dude is a whiner. You should have shot him down again.

Aviar
10-31-2007, 09:38 PM
When you are in a public server, the only obligation you have is to obey the rules of that particular server.

Beyond that, there is no 'Code of Honour'. Don't let anyone tell you any different.

Most of these players who cry about 'honour' are just trying to protect their precious statistics.

War is Hell. Deal with it.

Aviar

Snodrvr
10-31-2007, 09:39 PM
In general, My code of honor has consisted of three items.

(1) Be a wingman, Find someone and stick on his wing, unless someone finds you first
(2) Don't attack an enemy aircraft your wingman is currently engaged with unless he is about to fire on said wingman
(3) If an enemy plane is moving, it's a valid target (Subject to server rules, Which should be obeyed at all times)

Since you were breaking none of these at the time, I say Good kill.

ElAurens
10-31-2007, 10:02 PM
It is your duty to kill the enemy.

Period.

Kill him, and kill him again.

If that joker had said something about his K/D ratio to me I would have made it my mission to hunt him, and him alone, for the rest of the session, and I'd kill him in his chute when he bailed, every time.

Stats tracking scripts are the worst thing that ever happened to this sim. (Well, except for hacking).

Be sure.

-HH-Quazi
10-31-2007, 10:08 PM
Do unto others...yadda yadda yadda. I would have let him go seeing as he was no longer a threat. Mainly because I would want someone to do the same for me. But that is just me. That sort of thinking probably has no place in a situation like that. I don't expect many to feel the same way.

na85
10-31-2007, 10:25 PM
Simply because he was whining about his score would have meant to me that he was then Public Enemy #1.

I bet when he's not flying bombers he TnB's in an La-7 3xB20 at sea level.

gdfo
11-01-2007, 03:52 AM
Follow the rules of the server you are on.

Monty_Thrud
11-01-2007, 04:10 AM
STAB HIM!

Thats another reason i gave up flying online..."mess up my K/D ratio"...feckin ponce... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

WOLFMondo
11-01-2007, 04:14 AM
I hope you flew over to his base, avoided the AA and shot him as he took off.

SeaFireLIV
11-01-2007, 04:20 AM
Everyone has their own code of honour, even in real life.

It`s just some code of honours are less honourable than others, ie as in very bad.

Don`t get your hopes up for the good ones.

Pigeon_
11-01-2007, 04:39 AM
Thanks guys! I think it's clear to me now what to do the next time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rjel:
I wonder when people take this sim so seriously, does it become more work than fun? If so, what enjoyment do they get from it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me, it adds another dimension to the game and makes it more fun. I've always liked the WW2 stories about German pilots escorting British pilots and vice-versa. I think it's the ultimate show of respect to your enemy (in the game: the guys who you're flying with on-line) and I've come to deeply respect the guys who let me go at times... (even more the pilots in those stories!)

It's just how I personally feel about it. I think it greatly contributes to the community to pay respect to each other. You're free to feel differently, of course, and I will certainly not get mad at anyone who shoots me down in a situation when I would have let them go.

ViktorViktor
11-01-2007, 05:25 AM
Once in a while when I shoot someone up badly, they flip on their lights/wingtip smoke but keep on struggling towards home without ditching or bailing out.

Isn't this cheating ? Isn't he supposed to ditch or bail out at first opportunity ? If he makes a landing back at base then I don't even get a kill in my log, right ? Or is he thinking something else ?

I know that if this isn't specifically mentioned in the server rules then anything goes, but by taking the action of flipping on his lights, the enemy pilot has initiated an appeal to my sense of ethics, right ? He should thus feel obligated to follow thru if I spare him.

PFS_BlackBird
11-01-2007, 05:26 AM
Don't know if it is the right place to post, and i don't post a whole lot around here, but this thread sparked a memory of a topic i opened almost a year ago.

http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1707


BB

LEBillfish
11-01-2007, 05:32 AM
Frankly......As all i'm going to say about this pertains to the Kill to Death ratio......

It can only work like this..0:0, 1:0 to Infinity:0..........As the second you get 1 death (ex. 7:1)....It's over. It all resets back to zeros. Anything more is trying to game life, and life has a trump card, it's called death http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Rjel
11-01-2007, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rjel:
I wonder when people take this sim so seriously, does it become more work than fun? If so, what enjoyment do they get from it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me, it adds another dimension to the game and makes it more fun. I've always liked the WW2 stories about German pilots escorting British pilots and vice-versa. I think it's the ultimate show of respect to your enemy (in the game: the guys who you're flying with on-line) and I've come to deeply respect the guys who let me go at times... (even more the pilots in those stories!)

It's just how I personally feel about it. I think it greatly contributes to the community to pay respect to each other. You're free to feel differently, of course, and I will certainly not get mad at anyone who shoots me down in a situation when I would have let them go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, my comments were directed towards the other pilot in your post.

Pirschjaeger
11-01-2007, 06:07 AM
Before entering the server, he knew the risks.

Has his virtual family been notified? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I recommend an Irish wake. Who's buying?

Fritz

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-01-2007, 06:15 AM
LMAO!... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

K/D? He decided to destroy it when he got into that bomber. Where was his escort?

I think scripted servers are great because they give a stronger motivation to do something other than furball-at-1km midway between the two closest bases.

Honor system? The only real honor system exists between friends and usually on the same team. Otherwise, it's nonextant.

slipBall
11-01-2007, 06:24 AM
I would have left him after seeing the fire

Pigeon_
11-01-2007, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rjel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rjel:
I wonder when people take this sim so seriously, does it become more work than fun? If so, what enjoyment do they get from it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me, it adds another dimension to the game and makes it more fun. I've always liked the WW2 stories about German pilots escorting British pilots and vice-versa. I think it's the ultimate show of respect to your enemy (in the game: the guys who you're flying with on-line) and I've come to deeply respect the guys who let me go at times... (even more the pilots in those stories!)

It's just how I personally feel about it. I think it greatly contributes to the community to pay respect to each other. You're free to feel differently, of course, and I will certainly not get mad at anyone who shoots me down in a situation when I would have let them go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, my comments were directed towards the other pilot in your post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, I see... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

F19_Orheim
11-01-2007, 07:39 AM
Honestly? I'd do what you did. Whining when shot down is lame.

Freelancer-1
11-01-2007, 08:03 AM
Honor?

On a D/F server?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Try this:

Join any server that has externals enabled and just spawn and stay put.

Now, use your Shift F2 and Ctrl F2 to watch whats going on.

I think you see how much 'honor' there is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ratsack
11-01-2007, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
STAB HIM!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

And then stamp his fallen standard into the mire of his blood...


cheers,
Ratsack

BaronUnderpants
11-01-2007, 08:52 AM
I would probably have let him go because as u say he was allredy shot up badly and was burning just above sealevel.

Go arround a second time at that point is a waste of time, energy and ammo. And its usually at the that second run that the AI gunner nail u in the head from 1200m. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif


As far as honour?

Well, im in the habit of giving the benefit of the doubt.

If anyone abuse that benefit ( like your ex. with flashing navlights ), i take so much more plesure in slapping them silly in the future, and i can do it with a clear "consious" to boot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Its a game and are supose to be fun, this "kill or be killed" alot of pople rant about is waaay to seriouse for a game.

P.S. As u soon will discover, there are so many grey shades of "honour" online its scary.

Pigeon_
11-01-2007, 09:01 AM
Very good topic, Blackbird! Made for a very interesting read. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, for all the guys who said they would have left the bomber alone... I'm wondering about your motives. Would you really feel sorry for the guy? Or would you just do it to save ammo?


And about the lack of honour and/or sportsmanship on some servers... I don't care where I fly or who I fly with. I'll always respect my enemies, even if they don't respect me. Why should I drag myself down to their level?

F19_Orheim
11-01-2007, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
...Or would you just do it to save ammo?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be the only reason to leave him.

ops... passed the mighty 2000

PFS_BlackBird
11-01-2007, 09:09 AM
There are roughly three reasons why some would shoot untill the aircraft blows up:

1. It is still a threat
2. There is a possibility someone else will take it
3. "I like fireworks"

I don't see this game as a job, but i am a realism freak when it comes to playing games. In real life the only reason to blow it out of the sky is reason 1. That same reason is the criterium for me to leave it; if it's not a threat anymore it is time to move on.

PS: congrats Orheim, i've still got a long way to go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


BB

Poker_4H
11-01-2007, 09:13 AM
I would have liked to have left him to try and return to base.
BUT ..... usually there's some ******** who will dive in on a burning bomber and steal the kill.
With a bomber .. I try to make them drop ordnance before target .. if they've done that, they are no threat until their next sortie .. why bother wasting ammo on them, or risk getting shot down yourself by the AI snipers ?

Quite frankly, for our objective based servers, it is better to let the injured bomber go ... the longer they take nursing a crippled bomber back to base, the less time they have to sortie once more against the targets. .... but many don't think that way.
They are just interested in the kills. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

X32Wright
11-01-2007, 09:18 AM
Well my squad has a policy of not shooting planes with 'dead engines' or planes that 'run out of fuel' as well as ammo. Of course situations vary, if they pilot still flies like they will pose a threat to my teammates it will get shot down no matter what. In most cases however planes with dead engines or burning wont be a threat at all.

Now having said that, Peter Townsend (of 'Duel of Eagles' book fame) said that airmen are airmen even in war and after an enemy has been crippled the situation now switches from enemy to 'airmen in distress'. This is where the code of honor comes and I think this is situational even in WWII as well as in the game.

Pigeon_
11-01-2007, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PFS_BlackBird:
There are roughly three reasons why some would shoot untill the aircraft blows up:

1. It is still a threat
2. There is a possibility someone else will take it
3. "I like fireworks"

I don't see this game as a job, but i am a realism freak when it comes to playing games. In real life the only reason to blow it out of the sky is reason 1. That same reason is the criterium for me to leave it; if it's not a threat anymore it is time to move on.

PS: congrats Orheim, i've still got a long way to go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


BB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh yeah! I like fireworks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif It was part of the reason why I brought him down. Reason #1 played the biggest part though...

I haven't been playing very long yet and I have trouble with estimating the threat an enemy plane poses to me and my team mates. I know that a fighter on fire is very unlikely to make it back to base or even to the ground. Many times when I was on fire, I couldn't even bail in time. However, some bombers have fire extinguishers and can make it back to base after putting out the fire and feathering the prop... Do you guys have some tips for me on this?

ElAurens
11-01-2007, 10:58 AM
The term "sportsmanship" has no place in a simulation of war.

This isn't a bloody cricket match.

Retrofish
11-01-2007, 11:21 AM
Personally I would have taken his comment as a joke...no matter if it was or not.

Going on a personal vendetta against someone because that, would just stink up the server further.

DKoor
11-01-2007, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
I'd like to know if there's some sort of 'Code of Honour' that honourable pilots follow in these kind of situations? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Go for PK.

Pigeon_
11-01-2007, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
I'd like to know if there's some sort of 'Code of Honour' that honourable pilots follow in these kind of situations? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Go for PK. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PK?

FoolTrottel
11-01-2007, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
I'd like to know if there's some sort of 'Code of Honour' that honourable pilots follow in these kind of situations? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Go for PK. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PK? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Polite Kill...

PFS_BlackBird
11-01-2007, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
The term "sportsmanship" has no place in a simulation of war.

This isn't a bloody cricket match. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you don't play this game because you enjoy war?

I myself am playing a game to have fun. Fair play, respect, honor and sportsmanship will help it remain to be fun. If you neglect that, you're one of the players that is ruining it for others.

To use your analogy, there should be less war and more sport in a game arena or else everything will end up just as bloody as your cricket match.

But as i said, this is probably the wrong place for such a debate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


BB

T_O_A_D
11-01-2007, 02:01 PM
If there is any chance at all he may have help coming, I'd of saved my amo for them.

If I was 90% certian it was just him and I and I knew he would not make it home, and I had no kill stealers around, I'd of let him go.

If there was a chance he could make it home, I'd of finished him off.

Honor is cool and all, but I choose to protect myself or wingman over honor anyday of the week.

What I really enjoy doing is seeng someone, on my side getting hosed. Then I drop in and cripple his attacker, just enough to hold him at bay, and save my ammo to defend the situation, and let my crippled team mate turn around and give it back to him. weither I know this crippled team mate or not. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Pigeon_
11-01-2007, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
If there is any chance at all he may have help coming, I'd of saved my amo for them.

If I was 90% certian it was just him and I and I knew he would not make it home, and I had no kill stealers around, I'd of let him go.

If there was a chance he could make it home, I'd of finished him off.

Honor is cool and all, but I choose to protect myself or wingman over honor anyday of the week.

What I really enjoy doing is seeng someone, on my side getting hosed. Then I drop in and cripple his attacker, just enough to hold him at bay, and save my ammo to defend the situation, and let my crippled team mate turn around and give it back to him. weither I know this crippled team mate or not. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So how is one to know if a bomber can make it back? I hate taking chances. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

T_O_A_D
11-01-2007, 02:09 PM
Experience, is the only answer I have.

Is he burning,
Is he Decending
Is he loosing speed
how far is his journey to a safe ditching point, behind his lines.

No, I'm not always right either.