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Col_Tibbetts
07-16-2006, 10:38 PM
It is amazing how perfectly this sim reels you into an immersive experience and then cruely pulls out the rug from under you when the AI is involved in ANYTHING!!!!!

Why do we as a community tolerate the severely flawed AI in this game?! Why do we tolerate Zekes that can outrun late model Corsairs in a dive? Why do we tolerate SBDs that can't put their bombs anywhere near an enemy carrier even when set on ace? Why do we tolerate wingmen who scatter and then RTB when you call for help? WHY, WHY, WHY?!

What kind of people run a business this way? Our Russian author needs to learn how capitalism works! Is there a Better Business Bureau in Russia?

Oleg has had YEARS to make the AI something better than simplistic waypoint following idiots! Some perfectionist/genius he is!

OK, so those who play offline, how do you complete a mission without your entire flight trying to turn and burn with Zekes? How do you get your flight home without them crashing into mountains in the landing pattern? HOW DO YOU POSSIBLY HAVE AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE OFFLINE AT ALL WITH THIS MESS???

Which version of the game has the best AI flight model? You know the one where the AI cannot bat turn or accelerate to Warp Factor 9? I can't believe I have to DOWNGRADE something I paid for. Again, who runs a business this way?!

Oh and mods, you have no reason to lock this thread. I haven't insulted anyone or broken any rules. Locking this thread will only prove that this forum is no longer a place for non-biased discourse.

Thank You

Col_Tibbetts
07-16-2006, 10:38 PM
It is amazing how perfectly this sim reels you into an immersive experience and then cruely pulls out the rug from under you when the AI is involved in ANYTHING!!!!!

Why do we as a community tolerate the severely flawed AI in this game?! Why do we tolerate Zekes that can outrun late model Corsairs in a dive? Why do we tolerate SBDs that can't put their bombs anywhere near an enemy carrier even when set on ace? Why do we tolerate wingmen who scatter and then RTB when you call for help? WHY, WHY, WHY?!

What kind of people run a business this way? Our Russian author needs to learn how capitalism works! Is there a Better Business Bureau in Russia?

Oleg has had YEARS to make the AI something better than simplistic waypoint following idiots! Some perfectionist/genius he is!

OK, so those who play offline, how do you complete a mission without your entire flight trying to turn and burn with Zekes? How do you get your flight home without them crashing into mountains in the landing pattern? HOW DO YOU POSSIBLY HAVE AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE OFFLINE AT ALL WITH THIS MESS???

Which version of the game has the best AI flight model? You know the one where the AI cannot bat turn or accelerate to Warp Factor 9? I can't believe I have to DOWNGRADE something I paid for. Again, who runs a business this way?!

Oh and mods, you have no reason to lock this thread. I haven't insulted anyone or broken any rules. Locking this thread will only prove that this forum is no longer a place for non-biased discourse.

Thank You

FritzGryphon
07-16-2006, 11:09 PM
If you're really surprised by this, you must not have played many sims.

AI sucks, get used to it. Play online.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2006, 11:31 PM
Well I am your foil Col_Tibbetts, the A/I is just that A/I, I have flown this sim offline for over 2 years now & have loved it, A/I yes generally do perform in the planes better than us but big deal, we can out smart them. I find that with a few adjustments within DGEN you can tune the sim to your liking.

justiceboy
07-16-2006, 11:33 PM
Col_Tibbets

call 1-800-waaaaah.

Geeze, its not enough that you can play a flight sim, it's not enough that you can immerse yourself in a WWII situation. Video games have come along way young chap. If you think you can do better, then get on it. If you cant than just shut your pie hole and fly.
You sound like a little ingrateful spoiled brat.
mommy daddy this game isn't right, the AI aren't perfect, WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH.

Sorry I had to vent. When I hear people put down the video games of today, it drives me insane. Go play space invaders, or asteroids, then tell me this game is weak. Oh I got one, go play pacman.

geeeze

Scharnhorst1943
07-16-2006, 11:46 PM
Try Paul Lowengrin's DCG. I think that you will find it fills in several holes and helps make up for the AI.

The link to the download is here (http://www.lowengrin.com/download.php?list.3). Also in the download pages is the documentation. If you have any questions there are several offliners here who can help you set it up.

A sizable portion of the offline comunity says DCG is the only way to go. There are those however that prefer DGEN. Try it and see. The advantage is you can create your own or edit campaigns to your liking. You can also do it realatively easily.

tagTaken2
07-17-2006, 12:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
What kind of people run a business this way? Our Russian author needs to learn how capitalism works!

Which version of the game has the best AI flight model? You know the one where the AI cannot bat turn or accelerate to Warp Factor 9? I can't believe I have to DOWNGRADE something I paid for. Again, who runs a business this way?!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could try the All-American CFS3. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

When you come crawling back, I'd suggest the most fun patch was 4.01, 4.03 for new planes.

The AI are less frustrating if there are more in the sky, 2 * 2 in the qmb is a waste of time now, but if you play campaigns where you'd get crushed historically (early red, late blue), it'll feel more immersive.
Or even try going bomber for a while. I found a whole new diversion with anti-shipping.

Friendly_flyer
07-17-2006, 01:15 AM
Want to have fun? Want AI to do their job?

Go torpedo some ships in an He-111, and have Hurricanes Mk.I chase you. That will show you AI that actually does its work.

Col_Tibbetts
07-17-2006, 09:10 AM
OK, so now that we have all had our fun jabbing at my post lets get serious.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If you're really surprised by this, you must not have played many sims.

AI sucks, get used to it. Play online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if you bought a car and the brakes didn't work would you tell people "Brakes suck, get used to it. Use the parking brake to stop." Get real people. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Geeze, its not enough that you can play a flight sim, it's not enough that you can immerse yourself in a WWII situation. Video games have come along way young chap. If you think you can do better, then get on it. If you cant than just shut your pie hole and fly.
You sound like a little ingrateful spoiled brat.
mommy daddy this game isn't right, the AI aren't perfect, WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ingreateful spoiled brat? You people treat Oleg as your God. He didn't give you this game as a parent provides food for a child, HE SOLD IT TO YOU FOR A PROFIT!!! Grow up people. He is a business man and his product should be held to high standards!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Posted Sun July 16 2006 22:46
Try Paul Lowengrin's DCG. I think that you will find it fills in several holes and helps make up for the AI.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I have tried DCG and it IS a great tool. It attempts to make this sim what it should have been. The problem is that since the AI is just following waypoints, when things arise during the mission that fall outside of the waypoints the AI is clueless to deal with it. EXAMPLE, I created a mission where I was to bomb a target. I set in DCG a 100% chance for intercept and DCG created a patrol pattern over the target for the enemy fighters. However since I was late to get to the target the enemy fighters finished their patrol waypoints and flew home before I got there. They were just outside their "react to threat" bubble so they just simply flew home while I bombed their factory. I guess the Germans didnt have radios in 1944! Now if there was some simple code that stated "IF target is attacked THEN spawn fighters to intercept attackers" we then would have AI that could respond to on the fly threats! IF WE CAN WHINE AND WHINE ABOUT THE STUPID BAR BELOW THE FW190 RETICULE THEN WHY DONT WE WHINE ABOUT THIS!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ou could try the All-American CFS3. Mocking

When you come crawling back, I'd suggest the most fun patch was 4.01, 4.03 for new planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are now comparing IL2 to CFS3 eh? Oh how the mighty have fallen...

So I pose the question again. How do you have fun offline? How do you have fun when you fly 45 mins to a target and when your wingmen are instructed to attack they just throw their bombs into thin air? HOW!?

bird_brain
07-17-2006, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
So I pose the question again. How do you have fun offline? How do you have fun when you fly 45 mins to a target and when your wingmen are instructed to attack they just throw their bombs into thin air? HOW!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To begin with, I agree with you that the AI has been fairly well porked in the last couple of patches. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

With that said, I will give you my solution and how "I" manage to have fun flying offline. I create my own historically based scenarios and scale them to be manageable, challenging, difficult, but possible. I sometimes have to fly certain missions two or three times to complete them, but that is the challenge. I have learned in the last few months to operate as a "Lone Wolf" tactics-wise, and let the rest of the bozos do what they will. I choose my engagements carefully and try not to get in over my head by charging madly into a furball. I suppose that is how it was really done, so in fact, the AI has done me a favor now that they bumrush the player, single out your aircraft for destruction, ignore everyone else, and are in turn ignored by my AI wingies who I have actually witnessed flying formation with enemy AC and not attacking despite repeated commands to do so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In short, I feel your pain and it is EXTREMELY frustrating sometimes, but I see it as just another challenge to figure out how to survive it. I am sure it will be changed again.... for better or worse, I don't know, but it will be different. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

You are welcome to try any of my offline campaigns and see if it helps. I am not very impressed with DGen myself. (Nothing personal Starshoy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

cawimmer430
07-17-2006, 11:05 AM
I hear you man. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Sometimes, when I tell my dip**** wingman to cover me, there is an enemy fighter behind me blasting away and my wingman just watches. You have to press TAB and 7 for him to physically do something. And I read somewhere that you can only give 10 Tab commands of any kind before your AI squadmates won't respond.

My solution? When those ****** are in trouble ans screaming for help, I let 'em die. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dew-Claw
07-17-2006, 12:19 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/foodheroes/images/cheddar_300x193.jpg


Ahhhh,
Thats what this thread needed.

russ.nl
07-17-2006, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by justiceboy:
Col_Tibbets

call 1-800-waaaaah.

Geeze, its not enough that you can play a flight sim, it's not enough that you can immerse yourself in a WWII situation. Video games have come along way young chap. If you think you can do better, then get on it. If you cant than just shut your pie hole and fly.
You sound like a little ingrateful spoiled brat.
mommy daddy this game isn't right, the AI aren't perfect, WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH.

Sorry I had to vent. When I hear people put down the video games of today, it drives me insane. Go play space invaders, or asteroids, then tell me this game is weak. Oh I got one, go play pacman.

geeeze </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif need there be sad more?

StellarRat
07-17-2006, 05:10 PM
I've been programming computers for 25 years and I can tell you that AI is the most difficult thing to write. The routines are immensely complicated and can always be improved to handle new circumstances. Oleg also has to take into account how much CPU time and memory he is using for the AI. Remember it has to run in real time without causing lag. This is a severe restriction on what he can do. The smarter the AI is the slower your game will run.

MLudner
07-17-2006, 05:46 PM
Remember, Herr Oberst: The smartest computer can just manage to match wits with your average bee.

If it runs into a bright bee it's toast.

And, our most excellent rat is right and I think not needs be reiterated.

Col_Tibbetts
07-17-2006, 10:11 PM
Please read the posts here completely before you reply. I am not asking for advanced intelligence here. I am just asking for some simple IF THEN routines. Like "IF the defined target is attacked THEN send the nearest fighter wing to intercept" or "IF the airfield is being attacked THEN switch all planes in the landing pattern to attack mode". Very simple AI code that has been done many times before in many other sims. These simple things DO NOT happen in IL2 because they are simply not coded.

Even easier than that how about allowing for flights larger than four planes. That would make bomber formations much more realistic. Furthermore Oleg had the AI somewhat plausable before the last few patches. What is wrong with asking him to fix what he has broken???!!!!

I just dont get it. Some here treat Oleg as some diety and defend him and his product like God and his Bible.

Jim Jones would be jealous. Cool Aid anyone???

Oh and please, if you are not an offliner DO NOT bother with this thread. You in no way can understand our pain.

AVG_WarHawk
07-17-2006, 11:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tagTaken2:
You could try the All-American CFS3. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch! That really hurt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

justiceboy
07-18-2006, 12:21 AM
COL_Tibbets said
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So if you bought a car and the brakes didn't work would you tell people "Brakes suck, get used to it. Use the parking brake to stop." Get real people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOU are comparing the AI in this game to the brakes of a car. LMAO. Breaks are the most important part of the car. AI are not the most important part of the game. Flying would be the most important part, and guess what it flies. So lets compare it to say something similar. Performance of Engine. OK so you thought the engine would make you go from 0-60 in 5 sec and awe man it takes 5.6 sec. You don't like the way it performs, then don't buy the next product. If you dont like it, don't play then. And another thing a car can cost thousands of dollars and can take years to pay off. This video game with all disks is maybe $60.
Very poor analogy.

col tibbets also said
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please read the posts here completely before you reply. I am not asking for advanced intelligence here. I am just asking for some simple IF THEN routines. Like "IF the defined target is attacked THEN send the nearest fighter wing to intercept" or "IF the airfield is being attacked THEN switch all planes in the landing pattern to attack mode". Very simple AI code that has been done many times before in many other sims. These simple things DO NOT happen in IL2 because they are simply not coded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK....and the 1st time your wing man leaves you because of the code that tells him to intercept and you get shot down, here we go with the crying again......."It's not perfect.....they should be real and after the game the AI and I should be able to trade baseball cards and chew gum."


One more thing, I never made Oleg out to be a god, nor do i want is autograph or photo or anything else. I bought the game and I am not going to complain. I feel it was money well spent. I have been enjoying this game since it came out and enjoyed Sturmovik for about 6 months befor FB came out. And I am confident I will purchase BOB when it comes out.

Unless of course Col. Tibbets developes the most awesome flight sim ever created by mankind.

Looking forward to your 1st release Col.Tibbets.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Prop_Strike
07-18-2006, 02:19 AM
Do you fly online?

It beats offline hands down.....there is nothing better than downing a "real pilot".

Since playing online, I only ever play offline for practice now.
When I first went online I only had 56k, and it still worked ok.....I don't know how the latest patch would go.
If you do fly online, then why waste your time flying against 'Artificial Idiots'.....especially when it's more fun killing REAL idiots... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MO_JOJO
07-18-2006, 02:28 AM
I think tweaking the AI is a valid request. If they can create the buggers to fly like hummingbirds around the sim, why can't they just as easily make things a bit more realistic? That's what we want, afterall.

Col_Tibbetts
07-18-2006, 10:17 AM
Ahh, here we go again. I need to address another point missed...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> OK....and the 1st time your wing man leaves you because of the code that tells him to intercept and you get shot down, here we go with the crying again......."It's not perfect.....they should be real and after the game the AI and I should be able to trade baseball cards and chew gum." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was NEVER referring to my flight. As flight leader I am in control and I decide if my wingman breaks off or not. I was referring to the ENEMY flight. The AI is in control of the enemy flight leader and therefore should react to the threats I pose, not just mindlessly follow the waypoints in the .mis file.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> YOU are comparing the AI in this game to the brakes of a car. LMAO. Breaks are the most important part of the car. AI are not the most important part of the game. Flying would be the most important part, and guess what it flies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have got to be kidding right? Flying is the most important part of MS Flight Simulator. That sim is a flight simulator. Flying AND FIGHTING is the most important part of an air combat simulator which is what IL2 claims to be. If the AI is worthless then the FIGHTING part is pretty much pointless.

You obviously are an online only player. I will agree that in the online world this sim is wonderful. However, before you go running your mouth off about how perfect this sim is please be respectful of those stuck in the offline world. That is where this sim is complete rubbish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think tweaking the AI is a valid request. If they can create the buggers to fly like hummingbirds around the sim, why can't they just as easily make things a bit more realistic? That's what we want, afterall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU MO_JOJO. Finally someone with some common sense. All I am asking for is some basic tweaking to the current AI. I am sure we can all agree that the AI in Falcon 4.0 is much more robust than in IL2. If those coders can pull that off then our perfectionist/genius Oleg Maddox should be able to do the same. Especially when he starts selling patches.

JG53Frankyboy
07-18-2006, 10:29 AM
cant give an answer , i play only online........ guess why http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


even AI bombers in COOP missions are sometimes breathtaking (=VERY annoying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) when they start their manouvers when beeing attacked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MEGILE
07-18-2006, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
cant give an answer , i play only online........ guess why http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


even AI bombers in COOP missions are sometimes breathtaking (=VERY annoying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) when they start their manouvers when beeing attacked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you mean 1 second 360 degree rolls aren't a real defensive meneuver? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FI-Skipper
07-18-2006, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
Ahh, here we go again. I need to address another point missed...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> OK....and the 1st time your wing man leaves you because of the code that tells him to intercept and you get shot down, here we go with the crying again......."It's not perfect.....they should be real and after the game the AI and I should be able to trade baseball cards and chew gum." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was NEVER referring to my flight. As flight leader I am in control and I decide if my wingman breaks off or not. I was referring to the ENEMY flight. The AI is in control of the enemy flight leader and therefore should react to the threats I pose, not just mindlessly follow the waypoints in the .mis file.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> YOU are comparing the AI in this game to the brakes of a car. LMAO. Breaks are the most important part of the car. AI are not the most important part of the game. Flying would be the most important part, and guess what it flies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have got to be kidding right? Flying is the most important part of MS Flight Simulator. That sim is a flight simulator. Flying AND FIGHTING is the most important part of an air combat simulator which is what IL2 claims to be. If the AI is worthless then the FIGHTING part is pretty much pointless.

You obviously are an online only player. I will agree that in the online world this sim is wonderful. However, before you go running your mouth off about how perfect this sim is please be respectful of those stuck in the offline world. That is where this sim is complete rubbish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think tweaking the AI is a valid request. If they can create the buggers to fly like hummingbirds around the sim, why can't they just as easily make things a bit more realistic? That's what we want, afterall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU MO_JOJO. Finally someone with some common sense. All I am asking for is some basic tweaking to the current AI. I am sure we can all agree that the AI in Falcon 4.0 is much more robust than in IL2. If those coders can pull that off then our perfectionist/genius Oleg Maddox should be able to do the same. Especially when he starts selling patches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agree Colonel.But don't worry....you'll soon be able to fork out for some fantasy planes in the next addon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2006, 11:33 AM
ColTibbets:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"IF target is attacked THEN spawn fighters to intercept attackers" we then would have AI that could respond to on the fly threats! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't go there -- there is something better, and its been done in flight sims from last century.

We need real Combat Air Patrol Orbit waypoints. Su-27 Flanker 1.0, way back in 1995, offered mission builders two very interesting waypoint types -- "begin loop" and "end loop" waypoints -- where the fighters would loop or fly waypoints between these two "loop" waypoints (until out of fuel) and wait for and attack enemy aircraft that came within visual range, if they had ammo remaining.

What happened to YOU (Tibbets) in FB/PF was lack of what I call "air warfare" AI programming that the (very ancient) Su-27 Flanker offered. The enemy AI you encountered was surely programmed by the campaign generator to make just one pass over the factory, time to coincide with your bombing arrival, which you failed to meet for whatever reason (sounds like real life navigation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). That is NOT combat air patrol.

Please do NOT ask for fighters to magically exit HyperSpace just because the player's plane happens to come near a HyperSpace JumpGate. You can get a Babylon-5 or StarTrek space sim for that. We need all fighters to take off from their airfields, fly functional AIR WARFARE type of waypoints such as combat air patrol orbits.

What is sad is "flight simmers" have been dumbed down in Hopes and Expectations by Developers over the last 10 years of flight simming...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">AI sucks, get used to it. Play online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Online play is largely responsible for AI not advancing with other flight sim features such as Fancy Grafix and Perfect Polygons. Online play is a personal Hobby of most (not all) combat sim developers, and that combined with their failed idea that "online" would replace the need for fundamental advances in AI programming for flight sims, has caused AI development to largely stagnate (not entirely) over the last ten years.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Now, Oleg does have some of the best AI in the business today (and a great AI programmer -- look at the ESCORT function!), but it still fails to keep up with other overall advances in flight sims over the last decade. A first solution is to look back to the last century and combine all the *features* of AI programming into one sim, just for starters. For example -- If Oleg used a form of Combat Air Patrol waypoints like original Su-27 1.0, then ColTibbets would have met orbiting fighters waiting for his/her bombers.

Another *great* example -- Su-27 Flaker 1.0 had heat seeking missiles distracted by the sun, and it WORKED brilliantly. The Flaker Sun routinely made IR missiles miss targets. Now, the same concept of the Sun could be applied to AI pilots, and the AI pilots could be blinded by the sun, at least to some extent, thus allowing the Hristo-ical Bounce from the sun against AI planes. Programming AI planes to make offensive use of the sun may be far more tricky, and require further advances in AI development. They say that *great* AI is the hardest part of game development, and so its not a coincidence that its the most worthwile to accomplish.

Just...don't ask for enemy fighters jumping out of HyperSpace simply because the player's plane is near some special point in space. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MLudner
07-18-2006, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Col_Tibbetts:
Please read the posts here completely before you reply. I am not asking for advanced intelligence here. I am just asking for some simple IF THEN routines. Like "IF the defined target is attacked THEN send the nearest fighter wing to intercept" or "IF the airfield is being attacked THEN switch all planes in the landing pattern to attack mode". Very simple AI code that has been done many times before in many other sims. These simple things DO NOT happen in IL2 because they are simply not coded.

Even easier than that how about allowing for flights larger than four planes. That would make bomber formations much more realistic. Furthermore Oleg had the AI somewhat plausable before the last few patches. What is wrong with asking him to fix what he has broken???!!!!

I just dont get it. Some here treat Oleg as some diety and defend him and his product like God and his Bible.

Jim Jones would be jealous. Cool Aid anyone???

Oh and please, if you are not an offliner DO NOT bother with this thread. You in no way can understand our pain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry, Herr Oberst, it would seem I overestimated your intellectual capacities. I promise it won't happen again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tomtheyak
07-18-2006, 11:59 AM
Well Tibbetts, if its complete rubbish u can uninstall it then.

The AI has its strong and weak points. Recently enemy AI is far less likely to TnB with u on vet settings and I have been in some very difficult dogfights with AI of late - I enjoy both on- AND offline flying so I am in a pretty good position to compare.

They no longer instantly turn into you and lose all their energy, they climb for alt and get out of your way pretty quickly when attacked.

However, they do have a tendancy to bat-turn and the ability of some a/c to out-run known faster opponents and the all-seeing eye that they seem to possess are frustrating.

I have experienced the awful bombing, the 'blind to enemy next door' behaviour and a myriad of other complaints, but the difference between us apparently is I deal with it. Sure if someone brings it up as a discussion topic I'll back him up and recognise the deficiencies, but at the moment thats ALL you're recognising. What about the thousands of other details that make this such a great experience?

You troll in here with a combative and aggresive post and cut down anyone who dares counter your arguement, with no room for acceptance. I think you'd better get off your high horse mate.


"PLEASE! Help me have fun offline. I'm begging!"

Here's a suggestion. Grow a perspective you arrogant a$$.

Col_Tibbetts
07-18-2006, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We need real Combat Air Patrol Orbit waypoints. Su-27 Flanker 1.0, way back in 1995, offered mission builders two very interesting waypoint types -- "begin loop" and "end loop" waypoints -- where the fighters would loop or fly waypoints between these two "loop" waypoints (until out of fuel) and wait for and attack enemy aircraft that came within visual range, if they had ammo remaining.

What happened to YOU (Tibbets) in FB/PF was lack of what I call "air warfare" AI programming that the (very ancient) Su-27 Flanker offered. The enemy AI you encountered was surely programmed by the campaign generator to make just one pass over the factory, time to coincide with your bombing arrival, which you failed to meet for whatever reason (sounds like real life navigation Wink). That is NOT combat air patrol.

Please do NOT ask for fighters to magically exit HyperSpace just because the player's plane happens to come near a HyperSpace JumpGate. You can get a Babylon-5 or StarTrek space sim for that. We need all fighters to take off from their airfields, fly functional AIR WARFARE type of waypoints such as combat air patrol orbits.

What is sad is "flight simmers" have been dumbed down in Hopes and Expectations by Developers over the last 10 years of flight simming... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You hit it right on the head Lexx. THANKS! That is what I am on about. Sorry about the spawning solution but I was just thinking of quick fixes.

Why, if Oleg is the perfectionist/genius everyone says he is, could he not figure out AI code that was present in 1995!!!! At least he could have added it along the way in one of the many patches. Instead we get the 109Z and other irrelevent planes. I like your sig BTW! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You troll in here with a combative and aggresive post and cut down anyone who dares counter your arguement, with no room for acceptance. I think you'd better get off your high horse mate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I :ahem: POST here with a "combative and aggresive" tone because that is the way the Oleg worshippers chose to respond.

Fight fire with fire I say! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Dash_C.
07-18-2006, 01:41 PM
I have to agree with Col. Tibbetts, the AI is the most dated part of the game.

Any amount of time spent using the FMB to make a mission can quickly turn tedious and frustrating because AI seems to defy logic in certain situations.

Again, it's not some advanced AI routines that are needed, just some simple conditional checks that would make a HUGE difference in AI as well as gameplay, which after all, is the point of a game.

Dash_C.
07-18-2006, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
...if its complete rubbish u can uninstall it then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since when has this been a solution to anything? Seriously?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
The AI has its strong and weak points. Recently enemy AI is far less likely to TnB with u on vet settings and I have been in some very difficult dogfights with AI of late - I enjoy both on- AND offline flying so I am in a pretty good position to compare.

They no longer instantly turn into you and lose all their energy, they climb for alt and get out of your way pretty quickly when attacked.

However, they do have a tendancy to bat-turn and the ability of some a/c to out-run known faster opponents and the all-seeing eye that they seem to possess are frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
I have experienced the awful bombing, the 'blind to enemy next door' behaviour and a myriad of other complaints, but the difference between us apparently is I deal with it. Sure if someone brings it up as a discussion topic I'll back him up and recognise the deficiencies, but at the moment thats ALL you're recognising. What about the thousands of other details that make this such a great experience? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait a sec. I want to make sure I understand this part...

Before critisizing any one aspect of this game, one must first go through the obligatory praises of every single other aspect?

MLudner
07-18-2006, 01:55 PM
Allow me to rethink my above .....

Seriously overestimated ...

tomtheyak
07-18-2006, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dash_C.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
...if its complete rubbish u can uninstall it then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since when has this been a solution to anything? Seriously? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Meant slightly ironically; i.e. if in fact Tibbetts believes it is complete rubbish why does he a)have it on his hard drive, & b) come in here mouthing off like he's been sodomised by Mr M himself? He's entitled to his opinion naturally, but his delivery could use as healthy portion of tact and just plain good manners.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
The AI has its strong and weak points. Recently enemy AI is far less likely to TnB with u on vet settings and I have been in some very difficult dogfights with AI of late - I enjoy both on- AND offline flying so I am in a pretty good position to compare.

They no longer instantly turn into you and lose all their energy, they climb for alt and get out of your way pretty quickly when attacked.

However, they do have a tendancy to bat-turn and the ability of some a/c to out-run known faster opponents and the all-seeing eye that they seem to possess are frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
I have experienced the awful bombing, the 'blind to enemy next door' behaviour and a myriad of other complaints, but the difference between us apparently is I deal with it. Sure if someone brings it up as a discussion topic I'll back him up and recognise the deficiencies, but at the moment thats ALL you're recognising. What about the thousands of other details that make this such a great experience? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait a sec. I want to make sure I understand this part...

Before critisizing any one aspect of this game, one must first go through the obligatory praises of every single other aspect? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Negative. Just his tone - drama queen wades in:
"OMFG! What a pile of ****, why isnt it better? I deserve it, u lazy developer, gimme gimme GIMME!"

A brief history of this ongoing game shows we have recieved a great deal of free stuff, a developer who is responsive (if stubborn!) to complaints/ideas/bug reports/3rd party data etc, and is currently working on a successor which even by objective accounts is looking very promising, and will hopefully go a long way to address some if not all of the AI issues we deal with currently.

And remember guys, the engine for this sim is 6 yeras old and now obsolete. Even allowing for updates, tweaks and additions there are restrictions and as has already been pointed out in the delicate balance for CPU power allocation somethings suffer. Flight sims are hugely resource hungry software.

Maybe we could have all singing and dancing AI but at the detriment of FM fidelity, DM fidelity, grafix, sound. And you can gaurantee no matter how you prioritsed these there would be complaints. I have seen moans about sound, AI, FM, DM, some grafix too. I think the balance aint bad personally but guess being a pragmatist helps.

Hows about how much time you spend playing it?

How about the thrill of the chase?

That edifying feeling when you blow away some SoB you've sweated thru a 10 min dogfight with?

Or surviving a hairy crash landing at base after being seived in a maelstrom of flak and a dicey 15 min flight home on a failing engine?

The satisfaction of pulling off the perfect three pointer?

Putting your own personalised skin on your a/c?

Formation aeros with a mate?

Setting up a campaign/making a skin to share with others?

You start seeing why I think his attitude stinks. This game has given me and I imagine a great number of others a huge sense of enjoyment.

Tibbet walks in here like some damned fool ignoramus, shouting loudly bout a 'rubbish game' and 'cr@p AI' like its the be-all and end-all.
Theres no need for it.

I have no qualms with his arguement, just his attitude.

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2006, 03:55 PM
Tibbets:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You hit it right on the head Lexx. THANKS! That is what I am on about. Sorry about the spawning solution but I was just thinking of quick fixes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks.

Aw shucks, everybody asks for HyperSpace Spawn, at some desperate point, mainly out of frustration, as the idea was forced on flight simmers sometime in the 1990s by developers. Su-27 Flaker never used this trick.

Tibbets:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why, if Oleg is the perfectionist/genius everyone says he is, could he not figure out AI code that was present in 1995!!!! At least he could have added it along the way in one of the many patches. Instead we get the 109Z and other irrelevent planes. I like your sig BTW! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I do like idea of 109Z for Offline high speed long range jabo in a fictional campaign, and I doubt the AI programmer was dragged away from his/her (actually fantastic) AI work to model the -Z. Yes, Oleg's AI is fantastic but there needs to be MORE of it, endlessly more in infinite development for the Offline base, unless he can make Online Pay-To-Play work for BoB And Beyond where he won't need Offline customers any more.

Ya, my SiG never changed in years, but just gets a little longer now and then, depending on the gems posted by the community, and when I added the Gladiator part, we stopped getting Where Is The Gladiator threads once every 2 or 3 days after the AEP was releaced.

Col_Tibbetts
07-18-2006, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hows about how much time you spend playing it?

How about the thrill of the chase?

That edifying feeling when you blow away some SoB you've sweated thru a 10 min dogfight with?

Or surviving a hairy crash landing at base after being seived in a maelstrom of flak and a dicey 15 min flight home on a failing engine?

The satisfaction of pulling off the perfect three pointer?

Putting your own personalised skin on your a/c?

Formation aeros with a mate?

Setting up a campaign/making a skin to share with others?

You start seeing why I think his attitude stinks. This game has given me and I imagine a great number of others a huge sense of enjoyment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have a problem with MY attitude? Check your attitude matey. The above quote shows narrow mindedness, self centric thought, and an absolute disregaurd for people outside your perfect online world. Just for a second take a moment and realise that for people in the offline world there are no "mates" to form up with nor are there 10 min dogfights with some SOB. Offliners need at the least AI that can bomb a target for an immersive, enjoyable experience. That does not exist now and that is why IL2 is no longer a source of enjoyment.

So walk a mile in someone elses shoes before you claim that those shoes are perfect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2006, 04:14 PM
Actually, massive future advances in AI can equally benefit Online Air War and Offline play. For Online War, AI can fill out the ranks of dozens or (future) maybe hundreds of aircraft if there are not enough humoid players available. Thus, even two Brothers/Sisters could play within a massive Online War, one on each side, over a LAN, from their bedrooms, late into the school night, with AI taking all the pilot seats but two. And neither Brother/Sister knows what plane the Sister/Brother is flying, until Mom spawns and shoots them both down so they get some sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tomtheyak
07-18-2006, 06:14 PM
Hey Tibbets, try reading you bloody fool:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
The AI has its strong and weak points. Recently enemy AI is far less likely to TnB with u on vet settings and I have been in some very difficult dogfights with AI of late - <span class="ev_code_RED">I enjoy both on- AND offline flying so I am in a pretty good position to compare.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My reference to 10 min dogfight is to both on AND offline. But being a narrow-minded imbecile obviously doesn't help much in comprehending such arguements v. your *AHEM* broad minded opinion.

Look again; at what point have I disagreed with you? At what point have I said you are talking untruths? I have agreed with you, yet you seem to lack the capacity to comprehend that I have a problem with your presentation, your attitude with your arguement and to the responses of those who believe that reponding to you might actually be of some worth - which incidentally is a stance I am rapidly deciding is a fools errand now anyhow.

Your sweeping generalisations, blinkered viewpoint and a stubborn refusal to accept or even consider *with deliberation* any opinions that don't conform to your own just goes to show why you're unhappy offline and why no-one in any position to modify the AI will ever listen to a word your saying.

Try some goddammt manners - you'll find you make a lot more friends and actually learn sumthin.

Xiolablu3
07-18-2006, 07:03 PM
You still havent learned how to get along with people have you Colonel Tibbets...

Think suggestions rather than whining http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Col_Tibbetts
07-18-2006, 08:25 PM
Tom

You are the one who took this to the personal level, not I. Check all my posts and I have never singled out any one person (other than Oleg) with any sort of derision unless provoked. I may call out types of people (Oleg Worshippers) but never have I singled out any individual. People who take attacks on Oleg as personal attacks on themselves have just defined themselves as Oleg Worshippers. Whats wrong with calling that out?

Now there has been one exception. I admit I took your bait and returned fire to your personal attacks but I reserve the right to defend myself.

Therefore this personal business stops right now. My counter attack has derailed the whole point that Oleg should fix the AI that he broke. If you think I'm an idiot, fine. Listen to Lexx since he has it spot on. If sims in 1995 had better AI than IL2 does in 2006 then why doesn't Oleg just fess up and fix it. He's supposed to be the best, right? Why does he let a sim coded in 1995 outclass him in any way? Implementing just the simple items Lexx brought up would make the offline experience 100 times better.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

BfHeFwMe
07-19-2006, 12:19 AM
Typical, infant lobbyists who could care jack less about offline AI bleating the holy grail trumpets.

Everyone knows they've never done it, Mommy, no fair, Gen. Billy Bobs plane should not hang with mine, I need true to life lasers, FIX IT now or else a 60 page thread, again.

How much bloody screaming did it take to get the all seeing AAA fixed. It was the offline crowd that picked up early on every gun on the map was tracking the players. They made it known, but it didn't get any support to fix it till the onwhine crowd figured out it was killing their frame rates too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Sure it stinks bad a little, but boy do we love the smell of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Keep the hostility up, it'll win converts and help your game live a long life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Markku38
07-19-2006, 01:18 AM
OK everyone...calm down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

I'm offliner and AI p***** me too but I can live with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

This is probably always same time when waiting new patch or add-on...everybody has fire his a** and frustrating and so on...

maybe add-on is door http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Col_Tibbetts
07-19-2006, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Typical, infant lobbyists who could care jack less about offline AI bleating the holy grail trumpets.

Everyone knows they've never done it, Mommy, no fair, Gen. Billy Bobs plane should not hang with mine, I need true to life lasers, FIX IT now or else a 60 page thread, again.

How much bloody screaming did it take to get the all seeing AAA fixed. It was the offline crowd that picked up early on every gun on the map was tracking the players. They made it known, but it didn't get any support to fix it till the onwhine crowd figured out it was killing their frame rates too. Too Happy

Sure it stinks bad a little, but boy do we love the smell of it. Wink2

Keep the hostility up, it'll win converts and help your game live a long life. Mean Happy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good show BfHeFwMe! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Great example of how constructive criticism IMPROVES the overall greatness of IL2. Yes, in the beginning the AAA was ridiculous. People like me who point such things out, in the face of persecution mind you, do so much more to improve this sim than anyone here. Sitting back and slowly sipping the company Kool Aid does nothing to further the progress of the IL2 series. Pointing out problems and creating a grass roots movement for change does!

csThor
07-19-2006, 10:51 AM
There is a marked difference between "constructive criticism" and blatant whining. And then of course there's the "fanboy calling" ... and everything is mixed into this thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Get real people! This game series is finished. The stuff to be added yet has been started over a year ago and means little work for Maddox Games. Their top priority is BoB - to expect anything else is incredibly naive.
And calling people fanboys who dare to comment on the futility of such requests is not any better than "true fanboism" - just on the opposite side of the scale. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Sorry Col Tibbets - you will have to live with the AI as I somehow doubt there will be noticeable changes in the few patches/AddOns to come.

Col_Tibbetts
07-19-2006, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Sorry Col Tibbets - you will have to live with the AI as I somehow doubt there will be noticeable changes in the few patches/AddOns to come. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for proving my point. That is why I am so upset with Oleg. He will be selling a product with KNOWN problems and making no attempt to fix those problems, before or after the sale. 4.05 has all the issues of the past. I can completely understand releasing a flawed product for free, but when you charge for it thats a whole other matter.

In my professional life when I produce something for my customers I make darn sure that it is right before I let it leave my hands. And if something goes wrong I make every effort to make it right. That's just good business. That's doing the right thing.

It's very simple. Oleg shouldn't sell a product if he has "no time to fix it".

csThor
07-19-2006, 11:34 AM
Ever looked at the "great sim developers" and their products? CF$ series? EAW (which never had an AI worth mentioning until someone hex-edited some part of the code)?

The whole Il-2 line is at the end of its life-cycle and is being used to test features for BoB (namely some parts of the FM - this is what makes the AI problematic as it wasn't written to cope with that FM). Getting worked up about it is simply a waste of breath and in my eyes a weird reaction. Maybe it's my character that I mostly shrug off what makes other folks's blood boil.

MrMojok
07-19-2006, 11:44 AM
SURELY there is going to be an AI fix in one of the upcoming paid addons.

Won't there..... ???

csThor
07-19-2006, 12:06 PM
Improbable, because the AddOns were made by Luthier's team - external folks. They won't fiddle with the AI.
Maddox Games is working full-time on BoB - no time for AI fiddling in a "closed project".

JSG72
07-19-2006, 03:00 PM
Sorry guys.

But I just don't understand the complete point of this thread.
I understand about Product not meeting the specification as advertised/Sold to public.
And maker not doing his duty.
Just cannot relate it to this Sim!
Bought when released. As far as I was concerned it was "Nirvana".
Then I realised there were Foibles and erm... that was 5 years ago.
Jeez! I am now on my third computer since. Just soas I can play this 60 Sim Offline.
That is to say. I am more than happy with what has been produced.
But having to Fork out Thousands of pounds/Dollars to Upgrade my computer system is more annoying.
Sure it is the price of progress.
The Sim remains the same.

Would you be prepared to pay that money for the Sim The way you would like it to be as well.
I am sure it wouldn't cost Thousands to improve this Sim the way you would like it.
But the boat has been missed by Miles/Years.

BoB is coming along and Manpower?expenditure. is required for this.
Just as a matter of interest. I don't know what product Col_Tibbets Sells/Manufactures.
But I can guarantee that Five years down the road someone will have produced something that is an improvement.
And it surely won't be him because his is the "Only One " anyone will ever need.
Yeh! Pull the other one.


Off course it's good service. But good business?
Go tell the Bigger hitters.

MMmmm. Must Post FORD to tel them to upgrade my '93 Sierra To '07 spec.

It's gone man ...Solid gone.

This is a Parody? Right.

MLudner
07-19-2006, 05:50 PM
No.

Completely overestimated ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

And he doesn't even know why.

Treetop64
07-19-2006, 08:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
No.

Completely overestimated ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

And he doesn't even know why. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I don't think you can progress the "estimation" and "overestimation" enough, bro.

Seriously though, the AI is admittedly flawed, but not to the point of me making a post like I've had a few too many Starbucks four-shot venti mochas...

Want to have fun offline, Tibbetts? I've said it before and I'll say it again: I never fly offline without DCG 3.28 and Stab 6.1. Those two applications are just about the greatest things (along with Hyperlobby) that has ever happened to the IL-2 sim. Get them. Learn them. Utilize them to your optimum preferences. Then you WILL have fun offline. I guarantee it!

One gotcha regarding the AI while playing offline: You're best turning OFF "Engine Overheat" in the difficulty options. Trust me, I was highly against this at first, but once I actually turned that off for offline campaign play I discovered that it was not bad to play that way at all. I actually enjoyed offline play more. You will still have to manage your throttle use due to the infinate variances of mission dynamics, however. Also, depending on your DCG settings you might fly long missions, and you will still have to manage your fuel.

Oh, and PLEASE turn OFF all of the map display options (Icons, Flight Path, etc.). That, IMHO, is the biggest immersion killer in the game.

You might want to be a bit bold and turn off the warning and engine settings messages that show on the middle right side of the screen also. I highly recommend this.

Just go easy, man. O-kay? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-19-2006, 08:28 PM
TreeTop:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You might want to be a bit bold and turn off the warning and engine settings messages that show on the middle right side of the screen also. I highly recommend this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I turn them off too. But with the cyclical radiator settings, I must turn off engine overheat too (it seemed to be always porked in this sim anyways, so why not). One of the best exceptions is I-185 with the cowl flaps that you can see, thus you don't need the arcade hud glare writing all over the canopy telling you your rad flap positions.


TreeTop:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Seriously though, the AI is admittedly flawed, but not to the point of me making a post like I've had a few too many Starbucks four-shot venti mochas... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I found Tibbets (and csThor) to be the most level headed poster in this thread, once *somebody* here can directly address the concerns Tibbets has. These concerns of Tibbets are costing Oleg his Offline customers right now.

Tibbets you are correct in all things here, but csThor is a great puller for the Offline customers, and he/she is right about it being too late for this sim, which is why I have left it behind already (no 4.05+ for me), although TreeTop has some *great* ideas that I had used for adding some Offline immersion within the limits imposed by this mostly Online, closed sim.

At least Tibbets is still flying this sim, where I stopped...like how Oleg gave up on developing Eastern Front air war which is what made this sim unique and the best sim, really the only sim, above all others...3 years ago. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

-------


csThor, we know that Oleg is going to "open" map making to the community for BoB And Beyond, but Oleg said he will only allow open modding of restricted small maps to reserve large "theater" maps for his later releaces.

This is a contradiction -- Large, object-heavy "Gulf of Finland" type maps cannot be used for Online play, but the Offline modding community will be restricted to the small restricted maps that are usable only for Online play. Modders of small Online dogfight maps are the only ones who benefit here. Again, as always, Oleg is making a descision that cripples the sim for Offline players.

3rd Parties can *always* make better maps than flight sim developers themselves, by using the map making tools created by the developers. You and IanBoys are prime examples of this. Sales of any "Beyonds" to BoB And Beyond won't be hurt by large full scale community made 3rd Party maps. Such "Beyonds" that Oleg may releace will feature primarily new Flyable and AI aircraft which should be closed to modding. Shucks, if I recall, we got your Kurland map for free, you see what I mean?

And why is Oleg *still* saying that any attempt to simulate air warfare, also called dynamic campaign, such as Lowengrin's work, is "arcade?" You told us that Oleg had found new people or friends to listen to.

...PS, I could never use Kurland because its too dark. I heard your map modding team used a new map tool/technique that caused this. By contrast, although the StrikeFighters series is the worst, out of box, for dark landscape and overall game-play crippling dark Gothic lighting, its open enough that I fly it as a totally different sim with great lighting and contrast during day missions and realistic blackness in night missions (I make my own (amatuer!) maps far larger than the developer makes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

csThor
07-19-2006, 09:46 PM
Lexx - at first I have to correct you in a tiny little fact:

I have never "made" a map and I have never had the mapping tool myself. This was done by Ian alone - I was just the nitpicker in historical questions, the researcher ... So I don't know what "new mapping technique" you're talking about. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On the "problem" you described:

I do have a potentially unique outlook on user invovlement in combat sims. I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes by saying this, but in my eyes most users should stick to using the sim and forget about fiddling with it in any way. Simply because they either don't have the knowledge (e.g. I couldn't fiddle with FMs as I lack knowledge about that part) or the maturity to do so.
IMO it would be better to drastically limit access to the mapping tool as it was done in the Il-2 line. The initial recipients would be those who had the mapping tools for the Il-2 line, too, and they could "teach" folks they trust to use it.
I don't think a widespread use of the mapping tools would benefit the sim and the community. Simply because Maddox Games has a business plan and they need to protect it - also from overeager modders who can't wait to see Theater XYZ in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tagTaken2
07-19-2006, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
You might want to be a bit bold and turn off the warning and engine settings messages that show on the middle right side of the screen also. I highly recommend this.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto. I lose the every bit of text on the screen, subtitles incl, except for that compass heading (don't think it can be removed, not that intrusive anyway.)

Just something else, when purchasing anything, the onus is on the customer to make sure of what they're getting. I'll sit back and wait for comments and reviews before I purchase. If people aren't happy with something, they can return it. Constructive criticism is great, but squealing like you now own Maddox Games because you coughed up a miserable fifteen bucks makes people come across as self-important fools.

Anybody who feels differently is welcome to kiss my onus. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEBillfish
07-19-2006, 11:23 PM
If I only have 10 numerals, isn't it neet how it reflects oh so many threads of late all posted to try and instigate a revolt that will never happen for good reason....Lets try it out shall we?

0..1..2..3
.............
9..........4
.............
8..7..6..5

How interesting, due to it being static text, we do NOT have a full circle yet a full rectangle. Sadly, we still end up back at 0.....Ah well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

knightflyte
07-19-2006, 11:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What kind of people run a business this way? Our Russian author needs to learn how capitalism works! Is there a Better Business Bureau in Russia? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL. You're absolutely right. Oleg needs to learn capitolism like we practice here in the good old USA.

We got this thing up here called the BIG DIG!!!!! (A tunnel and bridge system connecting the Northshore and Southshore areas of Massachusetts to Boston) A $14,000,000,000.00 to $15,000,000,000.00 (yes BILLIONS) boondoggle that just killed a lady on her way to the airport. 14 billion dollars (originally estimated to cost 2 billion) and we can't be assured of its safety.

Almost every hand in MA government has been in the cookie jar one way or the other. One of the men responsible of overseeing the construction project has fought tooth and nail to avoid independant inspections and investigations throughout construction. Traffic around Boston will be a mess for weeks if not months trying to 'fix' this situation. (That's if they find nothing significant.)

And you know who's going to pay for THAT? You n me dear taxpayers.

Capitolism at its finest!

Sorry, just trying to add a bit of perspective.
Kinda makes complaining about a game look like whining.

MrMojok
07-20-2006, 12:09 AM
I was waiting for someone to flame Treetop for his suggestion to turn overheat off when playing offline against the AI. Usually, some of you L33t pilots respond with insults to the manhood of someone who dares to suggest such a thing.

You must be napping, I will check again in the morning.

But first, I'll fly a mission or two from one of my downloaded campaigns with the engine burnout turned off, since to do otherwise is insane and masochistic.

Treetop64
07-20-2006, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by knightflyte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What kind of people run a business this way? Our Russian author needs to learn how capitalism works! Is there a Better Business Bureau in Russia? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL. You're absolutely right. Oleg needs to learn capitolism like we practice here in the good old USA.

We got this thing up here called the BIG DIG!!!!! (A tunnel and bridge system connecting the Northshore and Southshore areas of Massachusetts to Boston) A $14,000,000,000.00 to $15,000,000,000.00 (yes BILLIONS) boondoggle that just killed a lady on her way to the airport. 14 billion dollars (originally estimated to cost 2 billion) and we can't be assured of its safety.

Almost every hand in MA government has been in the cookie jar one way or the other. One of the men responsible of overseeing the construction project has fought tooth and nail to avoid independant inspections and investigations throughout construction. Traffic around Boston will be a mess for weeks if not months trying to 'fix' this situation. (That's if they find nothing significant.)

And you know who's going to pay for THAT? You n me dear taxpayers.

Capitolism at its finest!

Sorry, just trying to add a bit of perspective.
Kinda makes complaining about a game look like whining. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just heard on the news today that they just shut down another one of those tunnels for you guys in Boston. Inspectors actually found thousands, thousands of loose bolts holding the tunnel ceiling panels.

Quite a sorry situation with that tunnel system.

knightflyte
07-20-2006, 05:35 PM
Approximately 8 BILLION of that 14 to 15 BILLION dollars comes from the NATIONS taxes. Quite frankly I'm surprised this isn't a bigger story.

I'm not positive of the exact amount the US gave to help rebuild Eorope after WW2, but I think the BIG DIG is more....or close to that amount. (I'm sure someone better informed would know)

WWMaxGunz
07-21-2006, 12:24 AM
When Oleg bends to please the majority any more it's time for me to quit buying his sims.
The reason is simple: the majority don't know more than about 25% of the reality of flight.
The majority know arcade compared to this series, especially since 4.0x came out.
Not saying this series is perfect or has every factor modelled so closely you can't tell
because no PC combat flight sim can. Or even has every factor and again no PC CFS can.
But this one at this time has more than I've seen elsewhere and as I've seen time and
time again it has a lot more than Johnnie "I was an Ace in other sims and they were real"
Yank-the-Joystick knows about or will ever bother to learn about.

The upshot is the downside. When a maker caters to the vocal whining majority then the
sim turns down arcade street, a detour I'd not care to follow.

I do know and spend time with actual pilots and one pilot inspector (he flies up with the
crews on commercial jets to evaluate their performance, trains them in sim boxes, etc).
All of the ones who fly this series will say straight out that no it's not perfect but it
is the best out there and they don't have complaints.

We have another pilot who USED to come here, TxEcoDragon, who is a competition aerobatics
pilot and he is pretty much the same.

But oh on, Oleg should cater to the ignorant loudmouths who are only the majority in
posting complaints and not the majority of his customers.

Ain't.
That.
Just.
Sweet.

MLudner
07-21-2006, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
No.

Completely overestimated ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

And he doesn't even know why. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I don't think you can progress the "estimation" and "overestimation" enough, bro.

Seriously though, the AI is admittedly flawed, but not to the point of me making a post like I've had a few too many Starbucks four-shot venti mochas...

Want to have fun offline, Tibbetts? I've said it before and I'll say it again: I never fly offline without DCG 3.28 and Stab 6.1. Those two applications are just about the greatest things (along with Hyperlobby) that has ever happened to the IL-2 sim. Get them. Learn them. Utilize them to your optimum preferences. Then you WILL have fun offline. I guarantee it!

One gotcha regarding the AI while playing offline: You're best turning OFF "Engine Overheat" in the difficulty options. Trust me, I was highly against this at first, but once I actually turned that off for offline campaign play I discovered that it was not bad to play that way at all. I actually enjoyed offline play more. You will still have to manage your throttle use due to the infinate variances of mission dynamics, however. Also, depending on your DCG settings you might fly long missions, and you will still have to manage your fuel.

Oh, and PLEASE turn OFF all of the map display options (Icons, Flight Path, etc.). That, IMHO, is the biggest immersion killer in the game.

You might want to be a bit bold and turn off the warning and engine settings messages that show on the middle right side of the screen also. I highly recommend this.

Just go easy, man. O-kay? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was going easy, until I was insulted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The AI is flawed, no argument. It stems from what they're trying to do with the AI. They're trying for a dynamic, more human-like behavior. The problem is that computers aren't yet smart enough for that. What our Most Excellent Rat said also applies.