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View Full Version : Very irritating bug about relative speed when pursuing AI planes



almarton2005
07-25-2005, 07:25 PM
I€m writing to ask community collaboration to solve one doubt of mine around what I think is a major bug in this great game.

First of all I would like to say that I am an experienced pilot (hobby) and the bugs I€ve been seen on the simulator go completely against what happens in real flight.

Ok said so, lets describe the €œbugs€ (almost all concerning relative speed between planes human vs AI plane):

When flying a faster airplane like P39 in pursuit of a much slower one (G4M1-11 Japanese bomber) the bomber can evade the faster pursuer by flying in a steep ascension. What should happen in a situation like that is the pursuer (P39) plane being faster and flying straight and level could overtake the bomber fairly easily horizontally, but despite going in full ascension the bomber continues to fly very fast and thus postponing the overtaking by an awful amount of time.

I would like to add that I never use control for mixture or prop pitch in my combats, so my plane (human controlled pursuer plane) is always assumed to be using the auto mode , is that right? I understand that when I do not handle mix and prop pitch they€re would always be in an auto optimum mode and so my plane€s flying speed. Is that correct?

On other more simple example I was in a P51D fighter being pursued this time by one A6M5 Zero Japanese fighter (known to be much slower plane than the P51) and despite I was flying on indicate airspeed in excess of 500 km/h and the A6M5 coming from far behind and on the same level it managed to close in very fast!!! It happens a lot, be it P51 vs KI-43, A6M5 etc.. (and my plane was in perfect condition €" no hits or overheating and 100% power and flaps and gears up , off course I said was over 500 km/h).

Concluding - from playing experience - I always noticed those problems of relative speed pursuing or being pursued AI planes. When I am the pursuer it takes forever to reach the prey (the only exception is when I start the pursuit from above and DIVE to increase speed) and when being pursued the AI planes they can, despite their far slower planes, close in fast.

This bug is very irritating (to say the least) on such a great simulator. And I almost sure this is a real bug and not a lack of knowledge of mine of dealing with the game mixture and prop pitch or any other resource to gain speed once I seem to be always flying on the planes envelope top speed horizontal speed (510 km/h on evading a Zero is not slow is it?).

Please help me providing your opinion/analysis about the issue, by the way did you notice that problem yourself?

In case I am right I strongly feel we should take it to the lead programmer of the simulator because this bug should be of easy fix and not doing so compromises a lot the realism and the joy of the game €" I myself even stop of playing it out of pure frustration with this €" Please explain this up for me.

I look forward for your response, and thank you in advance best regards;

Alexandre Marton.

almarton2005
07-25-2005, 07:25 PM
I€m writing to ask community collaboration to solve one doubt of mine around what I think is a major bug in this great game.

First of all I would like to say that I am an experienced pilot (hobby) and the bugs I€ve been seen on the simulator go completely against what happens in real flight.

Ok said so, lets describe the €œbugs€ (almost all concerning relative speed between planes human vs AI plane):

When flying a faster airplane like P39 in pursuit of a much slower one (G4M1-11 Japanese bomber) the bomber can evade the faster pursuer by flying in a steep ascension. What should happen in a situation like that is the pursuer (P39) plane being faster and flying straight and level could overtake the bomber fairly easily horizontally, but despite going in full ascension the bomber continues to fly very fast and thus postponing the overtaking by an awful amount of time.

I would like to add that I never use control for mixture or prop pitch in my combats, so my plane (human controlled pursuer plane) is always assumed to be using the auto mode , is that right? I understand that when I do not handle mix and prop pitch they€re would always be in an auto optimum mode and so my plane€s flying speed. Is that correct?

On other more simple example I was in a P51D fighter being pursued this time by one A6M5 Zero Japanese fighter (known to be much slower plane than the P51) and despite I was flying on indicate airspeed in excess of 500 km/h and the A6M5 coming from far behind and on the same level it managed to close in very fast!!! It happens a lot, be it P51 vs KI-43, A6M5 etc.. (and my plane was in perfect condition €" no hits or overheating and 100% power and flaps and gears up , off course I said was over 500 km/h).

Concluding - from playing experience - I always noticed those problems of relative speed pursuing or being pursued AI planes. When I am the pursuer it takes forever to reach the prey (the only exception is when I start the pursuit from above and DIVE to increase speed) and when being pursued the AI planes they can, despite their far slower planes, close in fast.

This bug is very irritating (to say the least) on such a great simulator. And I almost sure this is a real bug and not a lack of knowledge of mine of dealing with the game mixture and prop pitch or any other resource to gain speed once I seem to be always flying on the planes envelope top speed horizontal speed (510 km/h on evading a Zero is not slow is it?).

Please help me providing your opinion/analysis about the issue, by the way did you notice that problem yourself?

In case I am right I strongly feel we should take it to the lead programmer of the simulator because this bug should be of easy fix and not doing so compromises a lot the realism and the joy of the game €" I myself even stop of playing it out of pure frustration with this €" Please explain this up for me.

I look forward for your response, and thank you in advance best regards;

Alexandre Marton.

Atomic_Marten
07-25-2005, 07:33 PM
You are right as far as AI speed is concerned. AI posses more energy than it really should.

Also I can not tell for sure, but seems to me that it also accelerates better than human player controlled aircraft.

Anyhow one thing is for sure: AI do not share FM with human controlled aircraft.

FritzGryphon
07-25-2005, 07:43 PM
I've tested acceleration of AI planes, and there is definitely a problem with ascent and descent. With a P-40E.

In level flight at sea level, an AI plane will accelerate at the same rate as human. If you start at the same speed, and 'race' an AI plane at 100% power, you will find that the AI plane will maintain the exact distance behind you. if you use 110% power, you will pull away. If you fly uncoordinated, the AI will catch up. This much is correct.

However, this does not apply to dives. Starting again, at the same airspeed. If you dive your aircraft, then level out, with an AI plane in pursuit, the AI plane will rapidly overtake you after the dive is completed.

The problem appears to be that, once an AI plane has accelerated to a point above it's maximum leevl speed, it takes a very long time for it to bleed off the extra velocity. The human plane will lose the extra speed quicker, allowing the AI plane to catch up.

I observe the same phenomenon in climbs. At the initial start of a climb, the human plane will rapidly bleed it's airspeed. The AI plane will take much longer. The AI plane will therefore catch up.

Eventually, the AI will stabilize in the climb at the same speed you are, but not before gaining a lot of distance.

As if, in all modes of flight, the AI plane resists slowing, more than a human plane does. Perhaps using a simplified inertia model, or an error somewhere.

In any case, I'm sure the dev team is aware of the issue. It's immediately aparrent that 4.01 AI planes are more slick that their 3.04 counterparts.

almarton2005
07-25-2005, 08:06 PM
Thanks FritzGryphon , after all it is really a bug so, I was sure of that...

What surprises me most is that such a compromising but is not solved after all those versions... IL2, Forgoten Battles and now Pacific Fighters.

I don't know if u guys ever heard of a game called Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, it is stone aged game and has ludicrous graphics . But it is only 1.44 Mb and for only that it models air combat with a perfection that scraps IL2 out of the sky (it can be noticed differences between plane models in combat speed, ceiling climb, gun effectivenes)
As I said just forget that the graphics is **** (beyond crapness) but if the FM of IL2 could copy some of the realistic simplicity of Chuck Yeager Air Sucess it would be an sucess unheard of in the history of PC Simulators....
I remark here that I consider IL2 a great Simulator, fantastic graphics and history fidelity to things and facts but the FM SUCKS BIG TIME!!!!

quiet_man
07-25-2005, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by almarton2005:
...
I don't know if u guys ever heard of a game called Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, it is stone aged game and has ludicrous graphics . But it is only 1.44 Mb and for only that it models air combat with a perfection that scraps IL2 out of the sky (it can be noticed differences between plane models in combat speed, ceiling climb, gun effectivenes)
As I said just forget that the graphics is **** (beyond crapness) but if the FM of IL2 could copy some of the realistic simplicity of Chuck Yeager Air Sucess it would be an sucess unheard of in the history of PC Simulators....
I remark here that I consider IL2 a great Simulator, fantastic graphics and history fidelity to things and facts but the FM SUCKS BIG TIME!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?

Maby you should give this hint to some companies and airforces, they spend incredible amounts of money to big flight simulators

quiet_man

FritzGryphon
07-25-2005, 10:08 PM
The FM is just fine. As for the AI, it sucks in all games, to varying degrees, and almost always cheats.

You are thinking of a rosy past that did not exist http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FoolTrottel
07-26-2005, 11:21 AM
Is nog bug. Is probably intended this way. (Well, it could be intended this way)

Why?
- Programming AI in a way it'll work 'close' to what the human brain is able to do, is not yet doable on current hardware.

So, by the AI 'cheating', offline play can still be a challenge to us human pil2ots, and remain a challenge for a longer period... thus... more fun for us!

(AI is not so very bad here, when compared to Chuck Yeager's Air Combat!)

Have Fun!

Chuck_Older
07-26-2005, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by almarton2005:


I don't know if u guys ever heard of a game called Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, it is stone aged game and has ludicrous graphics . But it is only 1.44 Mb and for only that it models air combat with a perfection that scraps IL2 out of the sky (it can be noticed differences between plane models in combat speed, ceiling climb, gun effectivenes)
As I said just forget that the graphics is **** (beyond crapness) but if the FM of IL2 could copy some of the realistic simplicity of Chuck Yeager Air Sucess it would be an sucess unheard of in the history of PC Simulators....
I remark here that I consider IL2 a great Simulator, fantastic graphics and history fidelity to things and facts but the FM SUCKS BIG TIME!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pure, unadulterated, biased opinion. I flew this sim, and you are making out the relative differences between aircraft in it to be correct on the pure assumption that distinct, easily recognisable, and coarse differences are correct every time with no exceptions.

Your opinion, pure and simple is all this is

Brain32
07-26-2005, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So, by the AI 'cheating', offline play can still be a challenge to us human pil2ots, and remain a challenge for a longer period... thus... more fun for us!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can agree, but this issue is not challenging, I mean once(few days after release of 4.01) I just decided to follow AI no matter what, the flight took 45minutes and ended(esc key) at 5000m!!! I tried everything and just couldn't catch it.

There is a temporary(until the fix) cure for that; just disengage in direction of your 3 or 9 o'clock keeping your eye on the AI, it will then turn and try to follow you so you turn on him and end up head on, and the useless, boring part of flight is over http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-26-2005, 12:56 PM
AI flies with mathematically precise control of stick and always does the right things.
Differences of Green to Ace seem to be in tactics used only.

Brain32
07-26-2005, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> AI flies with mathematically precise control of stick and always does the right things.
Differences of Green to Ace seem to be in tactics used only. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the fact is that ACE is the fastest and others are slower in linear order, I have no probs with Avg. or Vet. but if I fly a similar(or even slightly faster) plane ws Ace AI they fly like they have a hidden rocket engine somewhere.

FritzGryphon
07-26-2005, 05:05 PM
In level flight, all AI levels accelerate the same. I noticed no difference at all in races versus rookie or ace. In both cases, they only use 100% power, and will merely keep pace with a human plane with same power.

I'd imagine the same applies to climb and dives, though I didn't test that (the inertia bug should apply to all AI levels equally).

In a dogfight, I find no noticable difference in acceleration, climb speed retention, etc between different AI levels.

If anything, the opposite. Ace is easier to catch, simply because it generally turns more in certain planes. Rookie flys in boring lines and curves.

Brain32
07-27-2005, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If anything, the opposite. Ace is easier to catch, simply because it generally turns more in certain planes. Rookie flys in boring lines and curves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't think I'm pulling your nose, but my expiriences are totaly opposite...

Grey_Mouser67
07-27-2005, 06:36 PM
I'm glad to see the dialog...I posted this as a bug on oleg's bug list.

I have countless examples of aircraft climbing and diving faster than they should relative to the aircraft I am flying...very aggrevating.

I fight a lot of Fw's and 109's offline and I've noticed many times the 109's up to 8,000 meters performing better than lightnings and just a little less than a Mustang...the Mustang was something like 70+km/hr faster at that altitude!

I don't see this being any better than the weird bat turns of 3.04 so here's to hoping Oleg will address it...it is a personal opinion of mine, but I feel online play has been degraded by the new FM and bugs and now even the offline play with this speed bug and the damage model of the Fw has been degraded...not a good way to end a sim imho

ManicGibber
08-01-2005, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I'm glad to see the dialog...I posted this as a bug on oleg's bug list.

I have countless examples of aircraft climbing and diving faster than they should relative to the aircraft I am flying...very aggrevating.

I fight a lot of Fw's and 109's offline and I've noticed many times the 109's up to 8,000 meters performing better than lightnings and just a little less than a Mustang...the Mustang was something like 70+km/hr faster at that altitude!

I don't see this being any better than the weird bat turns of 3.04 so here's to hoping Oleg will address it...it is a personal opinion of mine, but I feel online play has been degraded by the new FM and bugs and now even the offline play with this speed bug and the damage model of the Fw has been degraded...not a good way to end a sim imho </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a trk of AI MiG-3UD diving in on a group of BF109-E, they left me far behind stupidly trying in vain to catch up. My plane started to shudder then aileron broke off then left half of elevator then left wing go bye-bye and the AI are still accelerating way past 650km/hr, this is definately irritating.

italianofalco
08-02-2005, 10:55 AM
I totally agree with all you M8 about the fact that 4.01 patch is a bad patch about relative speeds of planes Hope they will correct it as soon as possible- S!all -Falco

F19_Ob
08-03-2005, 07:00 AM
I agree with some that Ai is bad in all sims and have different capabilities than the player.
I think it is ok though, and that ai must have the accelleration a bit better because even aces are easy to take out in close combat when flying the same plane. This ofcourse bacKfires in pursuit-situations as described.
Imagine how easy they would be if the flight model was the same.

I remember an old sim , CFS 1 and 2, where the ai had better capabilities aswell.
Since the code was open to anyone it was possible to tweak ai planes so they were a bit harder to maneuver. Impossible to get it balanced though.
Some things are good and others less good and I think it's unlikely to get all aspects of the ai to funktion after specs.


well, my thoughts.

italianofalco
08-03-2005, 11:59 AM
.."ace AI" ? You mean that all AI of this CRAPPY 4.01 PATCH MUST BE ace? and ALL PLANES FLY AWAY from you -ONLY- or better, when you are about to fire distance? (....)

arrow80
08-03-2005, 12:04 PM
AI jus simply has to cheat!!! If you have problem shooting down AI's then I can recomend you just one thing: Learn to fly! AI is a piece of cake against human players and if it would not cheat a bit it would be just shooting of drones and no fun. I think it is now fine and probably many of those who claim something about AI don't know a thing about how hard is it to make it balanced with current computational resources.

Brain32
08-03-2005, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> AI jus simply has to cheat!!! If you have problem shooting down AI's then I can recomend you just one thing: Learn to fly! AI is a piece of cake against human players and if it would not cheat a bit it would be just shooting of drones and no fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes humans are harder to kill, but vs human you can actually use capatibilities of your plane over his disadvantages, with AI, you never know... But you missed the point of this thread, I and all others here have no problems shooting AI down, and I agree it's not that hard, but the point here is about pursuit, because you can't shoot a plane thats like 800-1000m away from you...

quiet_man
08-03-2005, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arrow80:
AI jus simply has to cheat!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

noone doubt this and few have issue shooting down AI, but sometime it is rediclious

something from 3.04
I was attacking an single IL2 with an 190A8, I climbed to dive behind him and attack from low aft, he started climbing at very slow speed
when I came close to the "magic" 300m he pulled the nose up, accelerated into the scy and pulled a loop behind me???

I won the fight, but this rocket climbs are still wrong and killing tactics

quiet_man

Grey_Mouser67
08-05-2005, 09:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arrow80:
AI jus simply has to cheat!!! If you have problem shooting down AI's then I can recomend you just one thing: Learn to fly! AI is a piece of cake against human players and if it would not cheat a bit it would be just shooting of drones and no fun. I think it is now fine and probably many of those who claim something about AI don't know a thing about how hard is it to make it balanced with current computational resources. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand why when someone addresses an issue or fault, the ego of another has to come out and show how wrong everyone else is and how right they are...

Anyways, shooting down AI is not the issue...it is immersion...and the issue doesn't have much at all to do with computational resources....this bug appeared with 4.01. We had weird bat turns and super G force ability in the last patch and super speedy AI now...neither are correct. It is a code/logic issue not computing power. AI should have overheat limits and follow the laws of physics. I was lead to believe by something I read that the AI would use the same FM as we do and for the most part, it does seem to be bound by many of the same rules...just something wrong with speed...I've noticed it most at high altitude, but that may be because I fly offline a lot at high altitude.

Hopefully Oleg will look into this for the offline folks anyways...doesnt affect the onliners.

italianofalco
08-06-2005, 06:08 AM
"Hopefully Oleg will look into this for the offline folks anyways...".. this is the only right thing to do by mr. Oleg if they still wants to preserve this game as "SIMULATION" and not an arcade one -I think-. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif -Falco

BrotherJayne
07-25-2007, 03:55 PM
BoB Wings of Victory II does a fine job of having the ai use the same damn flight model as the humans... I don't see why IL-2, with it's fewer aircraft, could do an even better job...

Aymar_Mauri
07-25-2007, 05:28 PM
Thread necromancy at it's best...