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View Full Version : More on the spiral climb and scissoring with the Bf109.....



Jumoschwanz
05-06-2010, 09:50 PM
If you are scissoring with an opponent and they are a bit behind you taking shots, then as you cross their guns you want to go up or down a bit so their shot goes below or above you. It also helps a lot if you roll level as you pass to present a side profile so they do not have a good shot at your wings.

All the while you are doing this you are slowing down and trying to get them to overshoot you so you can have a turn taking a shot.

Often, I have noticed when a foe takes a shot in a scissors he will make what I call a "sacrifice shot". He will execute a maneuver that will allow him to get a shot in, but to do it he will have to either stall or give up whatever scissoring advantage he had. Look for this right after the opponent fires, it is at that moment that you will most likely have the chance to take control of the scissor!

On to the spiral climb. This is not all it is hyped to be. It is often talked about concerning the Bf109 over the Spitfire.

You are not going to approach a Spitfire with close to equal Energy in a Bf109 and just start turning and climbing and get over top of it without getting shot down. The Spitfire is too good at climbing and hanging on it's prop, and it's guns are too good.

The best way to do this, and the best chance you have at it working is if when you approach a Spitfire in a Bf109, then you have to be going AT LEAST at your top speed and you have to approach the Spitfire at some off-angle head-on.

THEN after you have successfully dodged the shot it takes at you in that head-on, you go into a shallow climb with a slight curve.

The reason for the above, is that he will have to turn 180 to follow you, thus losing E, the slight curve in your shallow climb is so if he shoots when he gets turned around his shot will have to be a long lead shot and his chances of hitting you are slim.

Watch as you approach the spit at top speed, he may not have the stomach to take a shot at you and you may see him break and start to turn early, this is your opportunity to take a shot as you pass...

Next, after the climb has decreased your speed to 300km/hr, level it off a bit and turn it a bit more sharply so the Spit starts to catch you, but at bit lower altitude. When the Spit is back in firing range, and you have to time this just right, wait until it fires then dramatically tighten your turn and steepen your climb.

Usually when the Spitfire fires while turning after a higher target it is because the pilot senses he has approached the best time for his shot, makes sense, so if at that moment he fires you do tighten your turn and go to maximum climb without stalling, then not only will the Spitfires shot miss, but his chance at firing will have passed. If you maintain your tight, full-throttle, near-stall turn at this point, then you will see the Spitfire fall off your six.

At that point when he falls off your six, if you have the distance you may be able to split-S and come down on him and take a shot, or you may want to straighten out a bit, get back up to 300km/hr and loop up and back on him. You have to do something like this because if you straighten out for more than a few seconds the spit will get it's nose back up and take another shot!

Done right though, getting the Spit to fall off, turning on it, taking a shot and then zooming away again to repeat, you should keep gaining a bit of E on the Spitfire each time and start to turn the fight more to the vertical.

Harrowing and a lot of work, it is not my idea of a good time to Energy fight with Spitfires that have the same E as my bf109, especially MkVs that can easily out-turn the bf109 with a good pilot at their stick.

Remember, one hit in the wing or engine of your Bf109 and it is no longer any good at all for energy fighting, so you have got to really know what you are doing if you are going to attempt this!

Vs. the later Spits, I would much rather go ahead and just start scissoring with them.

As far as trying the same thing with the FW190A, you can forget it unless you have a big E advantage to begin with, as they have poor acceleration compared to the Spits. The Dora is another story, you can get above Spitfires, and just about anything else with it very successfully.

Often when making a fast run on a late Spitfire with the Dora9, the Spit will turn more sharply than you can follow. That is OK though, just what you want as they are losing all their E, turn with them but not nearly so sharply while you climb above them at the same time. If the Spit pilot is good he may scissor on you and take one shot, which if you are good you will avoid! But after this one shot then the late Spit will fall off below you and you can come down at full throttle, take a shot and zoom away in the direction of his six so he has to turn 180 to follow and shoot again....

S!

Jumoschwanz
05-06-2010, 09:50 PM
If you are scissoring with an opponent and they are a bit behind you taking shots, then as you cross their guns you want to go up or down a bit so their shot goes below or above you. It also helps a lot if you roll level as you pass to present a side profile so they do not have a good shot at your wings.

All the while you are doing this you are slowing down and trying to get them to overshoot you so you can have a turn taking a shot.

Often, I have noticed when a foe takes a shot in a scissors he will make what I call a "sacrifice shot". He will execute a maneuver that will allow him to get a shot in, but to do it he will have to either stall or give up whatever scissoring advantage he had. Look for this right after the opponent fires, it is at that moment that you will most likely have the chance to take control of the scissor!

On to the spiral climb. This is not all it is hyped to be. It is often talked about concerning the Bf109 over the Spitfire.

You are not going to approach a Spitfire with close to equal Energy in a Bf109 and just start turning and climbing and get over top of it without getting shot down. The Spitfire is too good at climbing and hanging on it's prop, and it's guns are too good.

The best way to do this, and the best chance you have at it working is if when you approach a Spitfire in a Bf109, then you have to be going AT LEAST at your top speed and you have to approach the Spitfire at some off-angle head-on.

THEN after you have successfully dodged the shot it takes at you in that head-on, you go into a shallow climb with a slight curve.

The reason for the above, is that he will have to turn 180 to follow you, thus losing E, the slight curve in your shallow climb is so if he shoots when he gets turned around his shot will have to be a long lead shot and his chances of hitting you are slim.

Watch as you approach the spit at top speed, he may not have the stomach to take a shot at you and you may see him break and start to turn early, this is your opportunity to take a shot as you pass...

Next, after the climb has decreased your speed to 300km/hr, level it off a bit and turn it a bit more sharply so the Spit starts to catch you, but at bit lower altitude. When the Spit is back in firing range, and you have to time this just right, wait until it fires then dramatically tighten your turn and steepen your climb.

Usually when the Spitfire fires while turning after a higher target it is because the pilot senses he has approached the best time for his shot, makes sense, so if at that moment he fires you do tighten your turn and go to maximum climb without stalling, then not only will the Spitfires shot miss, but his chance at firing will have passed. If you maintain your tight, full-throttle, near-stall turn at this point, then you will see the Spitfire fall off your six.

At that point when he falls off your six, if you have the distance you may be able to split-S and come down on him and take a shot, or you may want to straighten out a bit, get back up to 300km/hr and loop up and back on him. You have to do something like this because if you straighten out for more than a few seconds the spit will get it's nose back up and take another shot!

Done right though, getting the Spit to fall off, turning on it, taking a shot and then zooming away again to repeat, you should keep gaining a bit of E on the Spitfire each time and start to turn the fight more to the vertical.

Harrowing and a lot of work, it is not my idea of a good time to Energy fight with Spitfires that have the same E as my bf109, especially MkVs that can easily out-turn the bf109 with a good pilot at their stick.

Remember, one hit in the wing or engine of your Bf109 and it is no longer any good at all for energy fighting, so you have got to really know what you are doing if you are going to attempt this!

Vs. the later Spits, I would much rather go ahead and just start scissoring with them.

As far as trying the same thing with the FW190A, you can forget it unless you have a big E advantage to begin with, as they have poor acceleration compared to the Spits. The Dora is another story, you can get above Spitfires, and just about anything else with it very successfully.

Often when making a fast run on a late Spitfire with the Dora9, the Spit will turn more sharply than you can follow. That is OK though, just what you want as they are losing all their E, turn with them but not nearly so sharply while you climb above them at the same time. If the Spit pilot is good he may scissor on you and take one shot, which if you are good you will avoid! But after this one shot then the late Spit will fall off below you and you can come down at full throttle, take a shot and zoom away in the direction of his six so he has to turn 180 to follow and shoot again....

S!

TX-Gunslinger
05-06-2010, 10:06 PM
Great instructional post, Jumo.

Great contextual blend of tactical/technical.

Almost makes me want to fly Il2 again!

I see those Nasty Spits are still around http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

Gunny

Jumoschwanz
05-06-2010, 10:14 PM
P.S.:

Another important thing to watch for in a scissor, is if it gets going a bit vertical and your opponent is really slow and has his flaps down, while you are at your highest point you can be the first to raise flaps, zoom past him at full throttle and try to spiral above him. This can work well if the opponent does not expect it and follow suit very quickly, you will gain a LOT of E on him and by the time he gets his flaps up he may quit a bit below you...

FA_Diablo
05-07-2010, 06:36 AM
The spiral climb works very well in a Jug vs. a 109/190 at high altitude. If they turn to tight and continue to climb with you they will lose E and eventually stall out then the Jug can jsut drop it's nose and do a gun run. Needs to be above 18,000 ft tho where the Jug has the advantage.

raaaid
05-07-2010, 06:41 AM
the spiral climb is my favourite manouber, wroks very well in a spit and you can face multiple foes with this method

kimosabi79
05-07-2010, 08:03 AM
What if the bogey on your six during scissors does a barrel roll to keep his advantage?
What if the meeting Spit does an Immelmann, or chandelles from right below you and parks right on your six?

Kettenhunde
05-07-2010, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as trying the same thing with the FW190A, you can forget it unless you have a big E advantage to begin with, as they have poor acceleration compared to the Spits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not disputing what you are saying about the game.

FWIW, from about ~218mph (+) the FW-190A8 has better acceleration than the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 66 +18.

That reflects the general trend in these designs.

In fact, any aircraft that is faster at a given altitude will have better acceleration on the front side of the curve as a general trend.

TheGrunch
05-07-2010, 05:09 PM
It's quite a well-known fault in the game, the 190's sluggish acceleration.

stalkervision
05-07-2010, 05:59 PM
I don't like scissoring whatsoever. Far too many opportunities for your opponent to score some good hits on you IMO.

Kettenhunde
05-07-2010, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's quite a well-known fault in the game, the 190's sluggish acceleration. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh!

Well that explains a few things in a thread or two!

No wonder players use the FM like they do....