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SabreF-86
03-05-2005, 10:17 PM
heard of or read reports of people on the ground being killed by falling projectiles from an air battle?

I have read of people being told to stay in shelter for a few minutes after the all clear, but have never heard of anyone being a casualty from falling slugs or explosive shells fired by aircraft.

It must have happened, what with all the billions of shells fired during WWII, and I can imagine poor farmer Ivan slopping the pigs while a battle rages overhead, getting hit in the head by a expended round, or maybe his pig catching one.

Starts you to wonder where all that stuff ended up doesn't it?

Sabre

p1ngu666
03-05-2005, 11:24 PM
ive wondered that. thought that mk108 would be pretty deadly. mk108 had a timed fuse or similer, exploded after so long.

PR mossie pilot corkscrewed successfully while 262 shot the sky to bits, till he ran outa ammo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

pourshot
03-05-2005, 11:38 PM
I read once about a guy in England who was watching the air battles overhead from his garden when he was hit in foot by a AP projectile.

You know every time I see the news on TV and those guys with AK47's start shooting in the air I think, well what goes up must come down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
03-05-2005, 11:43 PM
heard of ppl getting shot by falling rounds from that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

-HH-Dubbo
03-06-2005, 01:22 AM
Wasn't part of the Soviet case against Erich Hartman hinged on this factor? That based on an ammo load carried by a 109 times the amount of sorties he flew compared to the amount of kills he had scored, he had to have killed a large number of civilians (3000?) on the ground (because the spent ammo had to go somewhere) and was therefore a war criminal an not entitled to rights under the Geneva convention. So they kept him........

Von_Zero
03-06-2005, 01:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -HH-Dubbo:
Wasn't part of the Soviet case against Erich Hartman hinged on this factor? That based on an ammo load carried by a 109 times the amount of sorties he flew compared to the amount of kills he had scored, he had to have killed a large number of civilians (3000?) on the ground (because the spent ammo had to go somewhere) and was therefore a war criminal an not entitled to rights under the Geneva convention. So they kept him........ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
iirc they accused him that he "undermined the soviet war effort" by destroying so many planes, killing some 700 ppl or so, and destorying a bakery (tough i don't remember exactly where i've read this, so don't quote me) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

SabreF-86
03-06-2005, 02:19 AM
Interesting, hadn't heard that about Hartmann. Funny that the Soviets would use "undermining the soviet war effort" as a reason to hold him. Isn't that what the opposition is supposed to do in a war????

As for killing 3000 people because of spent ammo, I'd sure like to see the evidence produced.... Oh, silly me, this is the Soviet Union! Who needs evidence?

I have read of peoples' recollections of the sound of AA shrapnel pattering on the roofs during an air raid, so I suppose this could also include spent rounds. But I have never read any accounts of someone injured as a result of falling spent ammo. I imagine an explosive 20mm landing on your roof would make enough of an impression to be reported to the authorities, not to mention blowing a nice hole in your roof.

Sabre

triggerhappyfin
03-06-2005, 03:01 AM
Once I heard this episode told by my grandfather to one of his veteran friends. My grandfather was a truckdriver during Fenno-Russian war. Once when they were at some dispersal area near front unloading they were attacked upon by Russian aircraft(bombers) and the AA started firing. Some Finnish fighters appeard on the scene. This caused them to step out from shelter to watch the airbattle above.

Suddenly shrappnel began to fall all over the place and one guy standing som 5 meters from my granddad got it. A shrappnel hitting him in the head splitting it wide open!! Killed him on the spot!! All the others instantly hit for shelter. So regarding to my past away Granddad it sure happened.

Zyzbot
03-06-2005, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SabreF-86:
heard of or read reports of people on the ground being killed by falling projectiles from an air battle?

I have read of people being told to stay in shelter for a few minutes after the all clear, but have never heard of anyone being a casualty from falling slugs or explosive shells fired by aircraft.

It must have happened, what with all the billions of shells fired during WWII, and I can imagine poor farmer Ivan slopping the pigs while a battle rages overhead, getting hit in the head by a expended round, or maybe his pig catching one.

Starts you to wonder where all that stuff ended up doesn't it?

Sabre <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Check this link for info on "friendly fire" civilain deaths at Pearl Harbor...many due to anti-aircraft fire:

http://www.gonebutnotforgotten.homestead.com/CivilianStory.html

jugent
03-06-2005, 12:19 PM
Whats comes up must go down. But a small calibre projectile wont have high velocity because it wobbles and tumbles in the air.
A steel helmet must give you good protection.
Large calibre projectiles is another matter, they can be lethal.
The firecracker AK-47 fired in the air by militia is more a matter of uneducated militia whoose undiciplined behavior is more dangerus to themself than to their enemy.

womenfly
03-06-2005, 12:32 PM
My Dad, while stationed in England, witnessed a low level dogfight. He and his fellow soldiers run outside when they heard the sounds of the planes in the distance. A Me109 was being chased by a P-51 and flew right over them and their barracks. The P-51 firing as he chased the 109. My Dad said that after they passed the casings, from the P-51, fell all over the ground and pinged off the metal roofed barracks like hail.

He said, €œwhere the bullets went was anybody€s guess€.

So its possible people did get killed by falling debris such as; spent casings, spent bullets, plane parts and downed plane, etc €¦.. sad.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

P.S. My Dad was a Medic in WW-II and I am very proud of him! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

p1ngu666
03-06-2005, 04:35 PM
my grandad was a medic in burma, and im very proud of him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ElAurens
03-06-2005, 05:09 PM
During the AVG's and RAF's defence of Rangoon it was common for civilains to watch the airbattles from a certain golf course outside Rangoon. They would pop open their umbrellas or wear "Tommy" helmets to protect themselves from the falling spent shell cases.

blakduk
03-06-2005, 05:41 PM
My great-uncle worked in the Ford factory in Dagenham (London) during the BOB- he described hearing all the shell casings falling like rain on the tin roof of the factory. Every so often they would hear a 'bang' as something larger would hit, but he said the only injuries from that sort of material were minor.
He also said they had a guy on the roof with red flag- if any plane looked like it was getting too close he would wave it and blow a whistle. This meant they all had to jump under their machinery until he gave the all clear. He tells of getting into trouble from the foreman for watching the planes rather than working.It was a just in a days work for them!!!!

SabreF-86
03-06-2005, 10:34 PM
I wouldn't be too sure about small caliber slugs not being dangerous when falling. The pistol club I am a member of was sued for a couple of million dollars and was shut down for very expensive mods to the baffle system after one of our members missed the berm at the end of the range. It was a .38 caliber target slug, which flew about 2 miles before hitting some guy in the upper leg. He ended up in hospital for a week, and won his case. After 2 miles, the slug isn't driven anymore, and is only on a ballistic path.

Sabre

Monson74
03-06-2005, 11:55 PM
My parents bought an old house a few years ago & their neighbours told them that the house was hit by fire from a lonely American bomber flying very low trying to defend itself from a German fighter. The bomber crashed & burned not far away killing the entire crew - they're buried there at the local graveyard & I think they were Canadians. The casings were all over everything & they've still got some of them. When my dad was fixing the roof & the attic he found multiple large projectiles (must be .50s) - some of them all twisted & bend but others were in a remarkable good shape. They must have bounced about up there & then fallen to rest.

F19_Ob
03-07-2005, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SabreF-86:
heard of or read reports of people on the ground being killed by falling projectiles from an air battle?

...but have never heard of anyone being a casualty from falling slugs or explosive shells fired by aircraft......
Sabre <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite common in all theatres.
Maintenance crews working on ac near or on the airfield and other workers quite often got killed even during battle of brittain.
Later the germans made so kalled "milkruns" flying a predetermined route to england, often on low level to avoid radar.
Main purpose was to draw fighters but also to fire on trains and ofter facilities such as airfields. Bf110 also did this.

The allied strafed and bombed everything that moved later in the war. Many german planes were taken out landing or taking off. Mosquitos did that at night hunting nightfighters.

I have read quite a few accounts from the BoB where civilians were hit or had to throwthemselves on ground while watching low level dogfights.
Remember a 109 hitting a house with its shells later in the war while chasing a Spitfire at low level. As I remember no one was hurt but the appartment was destroyed.

only a few examples.

horseback
03-07-2005, 09:42 AM
Small arms rounds fired into the air do kill people all the time. In Southern California, right before New Years & Cinco de Mayo, you get a flood of Public Service announcements on TV and radio reminding people that the rounds always come down somewhere, and every year, it sounds like a firefight at midnight, & someone, often a small child, is killed or wounded by a falling round.

horseback

LuckyBoy1
03-07-2005, 10:38 AM
I live in a combination redneck and hospanic neighborhood. Pick yer holiday and I can predict 100% chance of hail! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The shell casings I'm wondering about are the big, like P-39 cannon rounds that drop like tall boy beer cans from the plane as you fire the gun. Anyone hear anything about those beer can sized empties dropping on someone?

Ping! Tell gramps we all know and appreciate what he did! The Japanese decided that it would hurt our morale if they targeted the medics. All it did was stiffen the soldier's resolve to fight, but still, either way, it was kinda tough on the medics!

blakduk
03-07-2005, 05:57 PM
I think some have misunderstood the original question- as i understood it, it referred to material FALLING from battles overhead, not being targeted by aircraft strafing targets on the ground. Large objects such as aircraft or engines etc will of course cause destruction on the ground- shell casings will typically only cause minor wounds. For more info you can try to catch an episode of a TV show i watched recently where some crazy yanks who call themselves 'The Mythbusters' were challenging the myth of a penny falling from a skyscraper killing someone on the ground. In the case of bullets, the acceleration due to gravity is countered by air resistance particularly when it begins to tumble. The rifling of the guns barrel spins the bullet to keep the pointy-end forward (anyone with a technical background will probably whince at my description). This typically keeps stability for only a few seconds. When the range gets out to a couple of miles the bullet has typically gone subsonic (around 160kph)- enough to cause injury but not necessarily a tragedy.
Couple these facts with the odds against such stray bullets hitting anyone (typically air battles such as those over large population areas took place above 4000metres meaning the range that a burst of fire spread over was vast)and you can see why there was little real danger to those below.
As for bombs.....