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Zen--
03-12-2004, 10:55 AM
Many people have commented on the stalling habits of the Ta152, I'd like to give my impressions of it so far.


I've been flying the 190 through the past 2+ years since IL2 Original version 1.02. During that time I have seen many changes to the FM's and handling of the series and have learned to fly them appropriately. With the release of FB 1.0 I have been flying the D9 '44 pretty much exclusively, I'd say that perhaps 80% of my total time in game has been on that model alone and I fly nearly every day since the release of FB.

It goes without saying that for me the 190 series is my favorite of all time and so I tend to fly them regardless of what else is out there that might be better. The plane I have been most looking forward to is the Ta152 and since the release of AEP naturally I have been flying it most of the time.

On the whole it's a nice plane and many of the features are well modelled. It certainly feels like a 190 in general handling and in a roundabout way the same flying style suits it as well as the rest of the series. It takes a light hand on the stick just as the rest of the 190's do. Without a doubt I like the plane and it performs mostly as expected, at least based on the written accounts I've read and some logical deduction on my part.

What is surprising to me though are it's stalling characteristics. I'd say they seem to be extremely harsh and to be out of character for what history implies to be a plane regarded as well behaved and one that was a distinct improvement on the Dora. My main issue is not with the normal FW stalling tendency to wing over that the Ta152 does, it's with the spins.

What I don't understand, and this is the point of my post, is the activity immediately after the wingover. In the Ta152, a flat spin occurs almost instantaneously with often disastrous results. And this is what does not make sense...why does the flat spin itself occur at this moment, with such consistency? The 190 is pretty well documented as having a wingover that occurs without warning but is also noted for easy recovery. In AEP we still have the wingover, but it is followed by a very fast flat spin that is darn near impossible to avoid. The Dora has the same tendency, though not as harshly as the Ta does. I've gotten into flatspins with them both, and it's surprisingly easy.

If the real life 190 characterstics are to be believed, there is no evidence for the spin to come on so rapidly, but this point is obviously debatable. I would never make the claim that one cannot spin a FW at all but what I see now is something closer to the spin being a predictable phenomenon that is in essence effectively part of the stall itself.

I say effectively part of the stall because there is virtually no delay before the Ta152 spins after it stalls, its a natural and quite rapid progression of the stall itself. I don't have the greatest reflexes mind you, but the spin happens so quickly for me that I often cannot take any action at all before it's too late and the plane is fully committed.

Logic tells me that if it were this consistent, real life pilots would have had something to say about it. They didn't, IIRC. I don't presume to be the expert on FM's in this game or RL by any means either, I'm just making an observation of in game behavior, contrasting that a little with real life accounts I've read and using a bit of logic.

To compare real life perceptionss about the FW regarding how it spins, look instead at the general perception of the P39 and it's supposed spin characteristics. Pilots apparently complained about the vices of the P39 and it got a bad reputation for the spinning, but how often did the P39 really spin? On the same logic, pilots didn't seem to complain about the 190 spinning and how often did the 190 really spin? I don't have a factual answer for either plane, but one has a reputation of spinning and the other does not. The P39 got it's reputation for a reason I assume, just as the 190 got it's reputation as well. One supposedly had a bad spin and one supposedly did not. What we see now in AEP is a 190 and Ta152 that has a very bad habit of spinning after the wingover, something that pilots did not appear to comment on in real life.


Keep in mind that I don't have an issue with how flat spins themselves work in the game either, that is not the point I'm trying to make. I've got no problem with needing 3000+ meters and a bunch of tricks to get out of them, they seem to be well done and for whatever it's worth I think they make the game feel more realistic. My issue is that the spins seem to occur too often in the 190 series, in particular the Ta152. I don't also argue against a stall resulting in a spin either, they are something that pilots must take care to avoid because few planes have an envelope that is spin free. I do not say that the Ta152 should not spin period, I only question why the spin is so consistent and so predictable when it seems to run contrary to real life accounts.

The Dora most definatley did not fly this way in FB 1.22. The wingover was there and was predictable, it was also easily corrected for once you got used to the plane. While acceleration, level speed and other 'hard' figures on the plane seem the same in AEP compared to FB 1.22, whatever global change in the physics engine that has occured in AEP has made the Dora develop the same bad habits as the Ta152 though to a lesser degree. I also see very clearly that all planes appear to stall more often than they used to and all planes suffer from more severe effects when they do..the stalls are a tad more difficult to prevent and a tad more difficult to recover from.

People might say that I need to learn how to fly or that I am not qualified to speak on the subject. Both might be true ofcourse, and I'm not taking the moral high ground on this, I'm expressing my observations of the Ta152 and the Dora in AEP, nothing more. I am also fully aware that the Ta152 is a high altitude plane and make no claims whatsoever that it should perform well down low. But the common denominator of the two is their stalling and spinning characteristics, one is slightly more forgiving of the other, but their tendancies are the same. They are extremely similar characteristics in game despite being optimized for different roles, so I cannot dismiss the Ta152 handling as 'it's not supposed to be good at low altitude'...both the Dora and the Ta fly too closely for me to just go with that statement.


As I said, the issue I am having is not with the how the 190/Ta152's spin. And it's not with the how they wingover or when, my issue is that because the spin is so rapidly induced, it is now imho effectively part of the stall characteristics of the series, in particular the Ta152. I question the accuracy of this, because after all these years playing IL2 and FB, I have been led to believe that the 190 series did not have harsh stalling characteristics resulting in spins, something that coincides with real life documentation and pilot accounts.

Yet in AEP we now seem to have planes that are very unforgiving in overall handling, contradicting what the sim itself has shown patch after patch and contradicting anecdotal real life accounts of their handling. I am always open to a sim getting progressively better and IL2 has continued to improve as the years went by...but what is more accurate here? AEP handling or FB 1.22?


Just my observations on how the TA152 seems to spin too often.


<S!>

-Zen-

Zen--
03-12-2004, 10:55 AM
Many people have commented on the stalling habits of the Ta152, I'd like to give my impressions of it so far.


I've been flying the 190 through the past 2+ years since IL2 Original version 1.02. During that time I have seen many changes to the FM's and handling of the series and have learned to fly them appropriately. With the release of FB 1.0 I have been flying the D9 '44 pretty much exclusively, I'd say that perhaps 80% of my total time in game has been on that model alone and I fly nearly every day since the release of FB.

It goes without saying that for me the 190 series is my favorite of all time and so I tend to fly them regardless of what else is out there that might be better. The plane I have been most looking forward to is the Ta152 and since the release of AEP naturally I have been flying it most of the time.

On the whole it's a nice plane and many of the features are well modelled. It certainly feels like a 190 in general handling and in a roundabout way the same flying style suits it as well as the rest of the series. It takes a light hand on the stick just as the rest of the 190's do. Without a doubt I like the plane and it performs mostly as expected, at least based on the written accounts I've read and some logical deduction on my part.

What is surprising to me though are it's stalling characteristics. I'd say they seem to be extremely harsh and to be out of character for what history implies to be a plane regarded as well behaved and one that was a distinct improvement on the Dora. My main issue is not with the normal FW stalling tendency to wing over that the Ta152 does, it's with the spins.

What I don't understand, and this is the point of my post, is the activity immediately after the wingover. In the Ta152, a flat spin occurs almost instantaneously with often disastrous results. And this is what does not make sense...why does the flat spin itself occur at this moment, with such consistency? The 190 is pretty well documented as having a wingover that occurs without warning but is also noted for easy recovery. In AEP we still have the wingover, but it is followed by a very fast flat spin that is darn near impossible to avoid. The Dora has the same tendency, though not as harshly as the Ta does. I've gotten into flatspins with them both, and it's surprisingly easy.

If the real life 190 characterstics are to be believed, there is no evidence for the spin to come on so rapidly, but this point is obviously debatable. I would never make the claim that one cannot spin a FW at all but what I see now is something closer to the spin being a predictable phenomenon that is in essence effectively part of the stall itself.

I say effectively part of the stall because there is virtually no delay before the Ta152 spins after it stalls, its a natural and quite rapid progression of the stall itself. I don't have the greatest reflexes mind you, but the spin happens so quickly for me that I often cannot take any action at all before it's too late and the plane is fully committed.

Logic tells me that if it were this consistent, real life pilots would have had something to say about it. They didn't, IIRC. I don't presume to be the expert on FM's in this game or RL by any means either, I'm just making an observation of in game behavior, contrasting that a little with real life accounts I've read and using a bit of logic.

To compare real life perceptionss about the FW regarding how it spins, look instead at the general perception of the P39 and it's supposed spin characteristics. Pilots apparently complained about the vices of the P39 and it got a bad reputation for the spinning, but how often did the P39 really spin? On the same logic, pilots didn't seem to complain about the 190 spinning and how often did the 190 really spin? I don't have a factual answer for either plane, but one has a reputation of spinning and the other does not. The P39 got it's reputation for a reason I assume, just as the 190 got it's reputation as well. One supposedly had a bad spin and one supposedly did not. What we see now in AEP is a 190 and Ta152 that has a very bad habit of spinning after the wingover, something that pilots did not appear to comment on in real life.


Keep in mind that I don't have an issue with how flat spins themselves work in the game either, that is not the point I'm trying to make. I've got no problem with needing 3000+ meters and a bunch of tricks to get out of them, they seem to be well done and for whatever it's worth I think they make the game feel more realistic. My issue is that the spins seem to occur too often in the 190 series, in particular the Ta152. I don't also argue against a stall resulting in a spin either, they are something that pilots must take care to avoid because few planes have an envelope that is spin free. I do not say that the Ta152 should not spin period, I only question why the spin is so consistent and so predictable when it seems to run contrary to real life accounts.

The Dora most definatley did not fly this way in FB 1.22. The wingover was there and was predictable, it was also easily corrected for once you got used to the plane. While acceleration, level speed and other 'hard' figures on the plane seem the same in AEP compared to FB 1.22, whatever global change in the physics engine that has occured in AEP has made the Dora develop the same bad habits as the Ta152 though to a lesser degree. I also see very clearly that all planes appear to stall more often than they used to and all planes suffer from more severe effects when they do..the stalls are a tad more difficult to prevent and a tad more difficult to recover from.

People might say that I need to learn how to fly or that I am not qualified to speak on the subject. Both might be true ofcourse, and I'm not taking the moral high ground on this, I'm expressing my observations of the Ta152 and the Dora in AEP, nothing more. I am also fully aware that the Ta152 is a high altitude plane and make no claims whatsoever that it should perform well down low. But the common denominator of the two is their stalling and spinning characteristics, one is slightly more forgiving of the other, but their tendancies are the same. They are extremely similar characteristics in game despite being optimized for different roles, so I cannot dismiss the Ta152 handling as 'it's not supposed to be good at low altitude'...both the Dora and the Ta fly too closely for me to just go with that statement.


As I said, the issue I am having is not with the how the 190/Ta152's spin. And it's not with the how they wingover or when, my issue is that because the spin is so rapidly induced, it is now imho effectively part of the stall characteristics of the series, in particular the Ta152. I question the accuracy of this, because after all these years playing IL2 and FB, I have been led to believe that the 190 series did not have harsh stalling characteristics resulting in spins, something that coincides with real life documentation and pilot accounts.

Yet in AEP we now seem to have planes that are very unforgiving in overall handling, contradicting what the sim itself has shown patch after patch and contradicting anecdotal real life accounts of their handling. I am always open to a sim getting progressively better and IL2 has continued to improve as the years went by...but what is more accurate here? AEP handling or FB 1.22?


Just my observations on how the TA152 seems to spin too often.


&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-

WUAF_Badsight
03-12-2004, 11:05 AM
it sure is easy to spin it isnt it

being fast & hard with the turn fighting requires a REALLY smooth action or your spinning

i say spinning instead of stalling because the spin seems to happen with the stall nearly every time

(i hate to stall out at all pride myself on the fact that i try to be a smooth stick but when i have stalled the TA-152 so far the spin has come on)

all planes can get into a flatspin more eaisly now in v2.0 but that Ta-152 sure does it eaisly

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 11:05 AM
I don`t get it Zen... maybe it`s your joystick settings or something? This is not a first post i see that people say that TA stalls too easy.. to me it just doesn`t. I would never say to you learn to fly, you know it. But to me TA152 feels more like ...G6 - G6 /late then FW. Only fast one hehe. I can e-mail you my stick settings if you want.. maybe that`s the key?

V!
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TX-EcoDragon
03-12-2004, 12:26 PM
Zen said:
"I say effectively part of the stall because there is virtually no delay before the Ta152 spins after it stalls, its a natural and quite rapid progression of the stall itself. I don't have the greatest reflexes mind you, but the spin happens so quickly for me that I often cannot take any action at all before it's too late and the plane is fully committed. "

This observation is one I agree with, though it seems to be the nature of the FM across the board. Even the stall/spin resitent aircraft still skip right into the developed spin feel. The fact is that in the real world there is a stall, then (only if the pilot has improper rudder for the roll)the incipient phase of the spin, then the developed phase of the spin. . . and in this sim the stall and incipient phase are next to non-existent. normally a spin will not develop from a stall unless the aircraft is skidding (yaw is in excess of the roll inputs), in fact a common training technique I encourage in the real world is the so called falling leaf stall. This is a maneuver in which you bring the aircraft into a normal wings level power off stall, at the stall break you pull the stick all the way back (ailerons must be held neautral) and then hold wings level, and maintain heading using rudder. The aircraft will descend at a fairly rapid rate, but will not spin, nor even pivot off heading if the pilot is using his/her feet properly. Many of the heavier, thinner foiled aircraft I have flown are not as comfortable here, but nevertheless it is still more or less the same behaviour. The point is, proper rudder to maintain coordinated flight has no real rewards in the sim as it does in real aircraft. In aircraft that at least allow a recovery within the incipient phase of the spin (that is usually 1/2 to 1 1/2 turn)I find this tolerable because even though they dont realistically reward proper rudder use in the stall they reward it shortly after, aircraft that do not recover even before the incipient phase of the spin begins AND have trouble recovering at all (when in fact they were recoverable design under normal circumstance) do however grate on me because the errors in the stall/spin model then become far more obvious.

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BBB_Hyperion
03-12-2004, 12:45 PM
After all he is Crazy (Ivan) and might already summed up 100+ Hours on this Ta so it might be a little easier to hold the balance with it .).

The Problem is not to avoid spinning for me but how to get out of one once you needed to get into.

A quick reaction in the first seconds gets you out of it fast. Well thats for starters. Its almost impossible to recover from a fast flatspin but works too (with alt). However was this kind of spin that common on that plane ?

Testflight from Tank himself revealt it happened once but couldnt be reproduced in other instances. The Report lacks of some Information Special Fueltankusage. This needs to be considered like on the p51d for cg shift.

Regards,
Hyperion

WWMaxGunz
03-12-2004, 12:54 PM
One possible explanation is power. And I did look for any mention of power or rpm settings before posting, I apologize if I missed any.

Any single engine prop plane with a high amount of torque for the plane will stall and quickly spin out if it gets slow enough. The 190's were noted for this especially with rookie pilots. One P-38 ace used that knowlege to get home alive from being chased by a whole string of 190's, he went into a steep tight spiral climb with the P-38 full open and as the 190's got slow they one after the other rolled over and spun down. They tried their best, they ran opposite rudder till the speed aouldn't support even that. Rookies in the 190 down low would jam on full to try and get speed as quickly as possible and they'd often enough die for it. That is not a mistake that Kurt Tank or any good pilot would make so you won't see a black mark because it's something to work with and not "fix". The "fix" would be less power and I don't think they wanted that.

The same goes for Mustangs. They can flip over faster than you can think about it at high power and low speed. You might get the transition to that in a hard turn or a nose up turn... I know I did and went around twice before let the stick go and reduced power. It was quick and talk about roll rate! Shame you can't do the same just any time!

Planes that can enter maneuvers fast are going to be touchy. If they can't then they'll be mushy. They can be one way in one speed range and another at another or they can be GA dude-horse planes and be tame all the time. Powerhouse planes have the stall and spin when they're wound up. That's basic flight physics. No quirks, no big power or performance unless you're either in a super fly-by-wire faster than human computer controlled jet or you run the power and use the controls both wisely for what you're doing.

Caution: Forces At Work.


Neal

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 12:54 PM
Actually i have only about 2 hours in it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and flatspinned only twice so far...both recovered after 3-4 spins relatively easy. I didn`t do anything special, really...stick forward, full throttle and opposite rudder, it just comes out of it. But i think the trick is... lower throttle when spin just started...and floor it after first spin... that pushes TA forward due to ecellent accelration and allows you to lower nose down and come out of it on 3rd 4th spin. Thank god that we are sitting in comfy chairs and not experiancing actual flat spin.

V!
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TX-EcoDragon
03-12-2004, 01:28 PM
Even many of the above poster's so called "dude-horse" planes will roll opposite the engines torque at higher power settings and minimal airspeeds, my presumption is that the pilots had proper training, and if they did this combination would have been of limited importance other than for takeoff or more importantly for go-arounds. In a dogfight situation if they were in a climbing spiral to teh left (CW rotation) at speeds just above the stall speed then it would be an issue, but again, of limited importance under msot circumstances. Of course listed power settings for take off, coupled with proper power application would prevent much of the troubles that might be associated with torque effects at the 1G stall, for a greater than 1G stall the effect is much less pronounced, and elevator is usually enough in and of itself to decrease the angle of attack below critical without much worry of a spin unless you were skidding. . .even in warbirds like the P-51.

Perhaps the reason some players are recovering more easilly is because they are using technically improper techniques, I have found some aircraft in the sim like flaps extended, and generally thats a big no-no in spins due to aerodynamic sheilding.

In the real world the way you make a spin go from conventional to flat is by adding power (and sometime opposite aileron helps to flatten it further), in his statement above a poster used this technique to recover, in the real aircraft this would have prevented recovery, If you went to full power and pushed stick forward in actual aircraft during a conventional spin you would transition to an accelerated flat spin, which I do plenty of in the Extra and the Raven, but would not be very fun in a warbird when attempting to df. . . once established in the spin if power is at higher values there is no control input combination that will lead to recovery in most aircraft (other than perhaps very low powered ones). (There was an exception in teh Turb-Raven which had a greater than 1:1 power to weight ratio, it could climb vertically, stop in a hover, and then accelerate vertically out of it, and given this amount of thrust it could also power of a spin, but this was an anomoly that no other aircraft to date is capable of.)

I am not sure what techniques you are using Zen but I trust that your using something like the PARE type technique that I used to do in TX training. This is an acronym applied by Rich Stowell to what is also known as the NASA standard method. (In most aircraft in the sim this works reasonably well, depending on which version of the game we are in.) I am not a big fan of using game techniques for recovery that are counter to actual techniques, and just liek when im flying real world aerobatics I run the same mental checklists, for me this is more than an immersion thing, it is a matter of practice that I employ in all of my flying, be it simulated or not.

The PARE acronym is as follows

P-Power off
A-Ailerons neutral
R-rudder full opposite the rotation
E-Elevator through neutral (usually full forward in the sim even though in real aircraft this can tuck you into an inverted spin)

S!
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[This message was edited by TX-EcoDragon on Fri March 12 2004 at 12:39 PM.]

Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-2004, 01:32 PM
My chair isnt very comfy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Sorry, couldnt resist.

Flamin_Squirrel
03-12-2004, 01:36 PM
Theres an easy way to check if its the engine torque thats causing these violent spins - see if you always snap into the spin in the same direction. Im not sure because ive never paid much attention, but i shall do from now on.

TX-EcoDragon
03-12-2004, 01:42 PM
The sim doesn't model the low speed high power torque effects much at all, and as such the aircraft seem to spin either way just as readily. They also dont really ever tighten up into a flat when the power is added, even though they behave as if the power is still in.

S!
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WWMaxGunz
03-12-2004, 01:48 PM
I've always done the power to idle, opposite rudder and stick forward in sims and it usually works. The stick forward part is to get the sim spin axis off being straight along the flight path and get the gyro being twisted thing going to soak energy off the spin. Many sim spins get well, geometric perfect along an axis.
I remember on the Delphi forum back in 89 in spin discussion there was experienced pilots saying if you're going to use ailerons then set them with the spin.

Never did a spin in real. Never even been in an aerobatics rated plane IRL either.

The dude horse planes... there's some built ultra tame. I don't mean like 152's but newer designs I've been directed to sites for. Extra dihedral, extra root twist, low power and 2 or 4 seats. Made to be aerial family station wagons. Behave like old tired out dude horses except for the nose of one in the butt of the other part.


Neal

Zen--
03-12-2004, 01:48 PM
Eco,

That is the method I use in general and I'm about 50/50 for recovering overall. I don't push the stick down and perhaps thats the problem...the in game Ta152 might prefer that but it runs contrary to what I've learned. I'll have to try that and see what the Ta thinks.
(grrbbraawk)


Ivan,

I've flown the Ta152 pretty much non stop since the release of the game in the US...I'd say between 30 and 40 hours total so far. (yep, I'm pretty much an AEP junky right now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) Perhaps your stick settings might do me some good, I'm open to suggestions. If it's as stable as you say it is, naturally I'd be delighted. I'm just not having such good luck with it because of the spin issue.

-Zen-

TX-EcoDragon
03-12-2004, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
The dude horse planes... there's some built ultra tame. I don't mean like 152's but newer designs I've been directed to sites for. Extra dihedral, extra root twist, low power and 2 or 4 seats. Made to be aerial family station wagons. Behave like old tired out dude horses except for the nose of one in the butt of the other part.


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes The Lancair Comubia series and the Cirrus SR-20 and 22 have restricted rudder travel (to the left) to remove the ability of the pilot to spin it, as well as outboard leading edge cuffs which are designed to make aileron inputs effective in levelling the wings in a stall when in all other aircraft that would lead to an unusual attitude/spin. These are certainly not low powered though, The Columbia is based on the Lancair IV which is the fastest production single engine piston in the world, with a max cruise of 345 mph. . . only a few shy of the P-51, I wouldnt call it a station wagon.

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Gunner_361st
03-12-2004, 02:32 PM
"As I said, the issue I am having is not with the how the 190/Ta152's spin. And it's not with the how they wingover or when, my issue is that because the spin is so rapidly induced, it is now imho effectively part of the stall characteristics of the series, in particular the Ta152. I question the accuracy of this, because after all these years playing IL2 and FB, I have been led to believe that the 190 series did not have harsh stalling characteristics resulting in spins, something that coincides with real life documentation and pilot accounts. " - Zen


Interesting Zen. I have flown all the new aircraft and most of original ones since AEP was released, and the only thing I've managed to put in a flat spin so far is the GO-229. and that was not pretty. :P Looked like a boomerang falling straight down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I will try out the Dora and TA-152 some more though, and see if I experience similar things. I flew the Dora a bit in a dogfight room, but never managed to stall it (I fly her gently though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

What I would try doing is re-calibrating your joystick and try modifying the elevator sensitivity input in Forgotten Battles input. After doing this, I usually can feel a stall coming and correct before it occurs in almost any plane.

"I'd say between 30 and 40 hours total so far. (yep, I'm pretty much an AEP junky right now )" - Zen

Wow! You must sure love the FW190. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I agree she is a great plane, but in my opinion you are missing out. There are so many wonderful airplanes we have available to us now, but its all about preference I know. ~S~

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flyingskid2
03-12-2004, 03:19 PM
ivan,
could you please post your joystick settings. i too am interested in anything that might improve my experience with this plane. i've only used it once but no sense to start from scratch if i can learn from experts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
03-12-2004, 03:34 PM
The Dora is my main ride, and I fly her 99% of the time. And compared to the Ta 152 I experience her to be more stable. Particularly during aiming. But the Ta 152 wasn't as stable as the D-9 was in RL either. Sure the Ta 152H-0's were much more unstable in flight than the Ta 152H-1 we have in game, but I'm not sure if they ironed out all the stabiliy issues. I have flown the Ta 152 alot lately and I've probably entered 20 some stalls and flatspins. And to be honest, I haven't managed to survive a single one. I've tried all the moves in the book, but nothing helps. When she's settled into the spin(which is pretty much instantly)she will stay there. Same goes for the Dora actually, even though it takes alot more getting her into a flatspin. When she's spinning she stays spinning.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Hunde_3.JG51
03-12-2004, 03:37 PM
Too much to read in this thread but I will say that I have never went into a flat-spin before 1.21. Then with engine torque modelled I would spin once in a blue moon at the top of a hammer-head. Since AEP I have spun more times in my 190A and in Ta-152 than all previous times combined. The Ta-152's is even worse (though I really have to be rough with the stick) than 190A but it is capable of more severe maneuvers so it doesn;t surprise me that much. As for the 190A I have never read about any severe stall characteristics other than the wing dipping and putting you on your back (which I think was done perfectly pre-AEP). Now instead of wing dipping there is a good chance you will simply go into a stall and right into a spin. This is pretty annoying since the ability to take a high AOA snap-shot was one of the major strengths of the 190. Now that is gone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. I can't speak for other planes, only the 190 since I fly it so much. Like Zen said, I'm not whining or crying "bias", I'm just wondering if this is accurate and if other planes suffer the same. Basically I just want to be able to pull my nose further for a split second like I used to and stall, but not go into a spin. If the way it is currently is more realistic then I'm fine with it, but it doesn't feel like it.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Fri March 12 2004 at 02:53 PM.]

Blottogg
03-12-2004, 03:39 PM
What I've seen so far messing with the Ta is that if I don't catch the spin within two turns or so, it fully develops and becomes unrecoverable. I took one up to 10,000m and spun it to try various techniques. The standard Tweet "idle, neutral, aft, opposite, forward, recover" (similar to PARE, with a couple of extra steps for the Tweet's T tail, and Air Force bureaucracy) was a no-go, and "rocking it out" a la Viper didn't work either. Pro aileron (into the spin) should work (like Neal mentioned) by increasing induced drag on the outside wing, but doesn't seem to be modeled. A shame since the long wings of the Ta would probably make this technique more effective. I agree with Eco that torque effects are very tame, and probably don't have enough affect to vary spin behavior to the left or right much in the sim. After the usual stuff, I started getting creative with flaps, gear, engine power etc. (it was a long spin.) Towards the end, I had a little success using pro rudder to wrap up the spin, followed by opposite rudder to "pop" out of the spin. I ran out of altitude before I could mess with the timing much, but that was the closest I came to recovering from a fully developed flat spin.

Eco, we'd teach the "falling leaf" stall in the T-38 too (though we called it the "aft stick stall demo".) Stick full aft, power at idle, configured for landing, with the nose on the horizon and the VVI pegged at 6000+fpm down, along with lots of wing rock. It got the student's attention as to the mixed signals possible with traffic pattern stalls.

The lesson I've learned so far is that the Fw family has rather abrupt stall characteristics in the sim, as they reportedly did IRL (though I think Oleg made them more tame than IRL to compensate for the lack of "seat-of-the-pants" feedback.) I've still got some more reading to do on the Ta's particular stall quirks, but it seems to me that flying these the emphasis has to be on prevention or rapid recovery (a quick jab of opposite rudder and releasing the backstick pressure as the plane rolls off usually catches it for me) rather than recovery.

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 03:55 PM
I`ll post my stick settings and if i`ll find someone to host track will post that too, with recoveries and low speed flying. I`m definitely not the best pilot out there...maybe just a lucky one LOL

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Zen--
03-12-2004, 04:11 PM
You can send them to me if you like Ivan, I've got a small web server setup at http://209.163.146.67

I'm going to be posting some of Hunde's tracks on damage model discrepancies and I've got some of the D9 executing a scissors there already. Don't worry about bandwith either http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

clyndes@hotmail.com if you like, works for IM as well.

I'd appreciate the joystick settings alot as a matter of fact, I want to try out as much as I can to get a handle on this spin problem.

&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-

Magister__Ludi
03-12-2004, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blottogg:

The lesson I've learned so far is that the Fw family has rather abrupt stall characteristics in the sim, as they reportedly did IRL (though I think Oleg made them more tame than IRL to compensate for the lack of "seat-of-the-pants" feedback.) I've still got some more reading to do on the Ta's particular stall quirks, but it seems to me that flying these the emphasis has to be on prevention or rapid recovery (a quick jab of opposite rudder and releasing the backstick pressure as the plane rolls off usually catches it for me) rather than recovery.

Blotto
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Blotto, Fw-190 was criticized for the accelerated stall at high speed, but only in Allied tests not by German pilots. The reason is that Allied test pilots unfamiliar with the plane flew it in improper trim. This is very similar with the famous high speed stick heaviness of Bf-109, when in fact Bf-109 could do a 6G pull out at very high speed (above dive speed limit) with minimal stick force if put in proper trim. If flown in tail heavy trim (max setting) the plane could stall in a dive pull out, but this was not a problem for a pilot familiar with the plane. Allies pilots were not accustomed with movable elevators of the German fighters because they flew none before. They'll flew a lot in the following years because today almost every plane that flies in transonic regime without going over Mach 1 uses the same configuration: movable horizontal stabilizer plus elevator (for supersonic flight all moving tail is better).

You can read here Tank's own evaluation of Fw-190 stall characteristics, the plane had no vicious characteristics and was very difficult to put in a spin. Try this in FB:


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bogdandone/FW190_stall.jpg

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 04:55 PM
Zen i sent ntrk to your hotmail, hope it fits lol.. 500kb zipped. I did it with default stick settings at work. MS FFB2. Crashed at the and... but would recover if i was home... not really comfy here haha.

Hope that is someting you looking for. I wanted to add you to my messanger.. but it appears to be down... add me if you like syp_crazyivan@hotmail.com

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

[This message was edited by crazyivan1970 on Fri March 12 2004 at 04:08 PM.]

Zen--
03-12-2004, 05:19 PM
Got it Ivan, ty very much. I'll try to have yours and Hunde's tracks up soon, though tonight is starting to look unlikely due to my wonderful beloved and her impromptu rescheduling of my evening http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm also going to take a long look at your track and compare styles, perhaps I could learn a few things. I feel like I know the 190 series very well after all this time, but am never going to say I know it all. As for the spin, perhaps I just don't know how to control it properly or am taking the wrong approach to it. I'm open to learning more though, so I'll give it a good look.

Thanks again, I'll let you know when the track is posted.

&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 05:21 PM
don`t post it before you look at it lol.. maybe it`s not something you needed haha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Zen--
03-12-2004, 05:22 PM
lol, wilco!

-Zen-

Zen--
03-15-2004, 07:25 AM
Is there any talk of the stall characteristics being looked at?

-Zen-

Gunner_361st
03-15-2004, 07:55 AM
I have not heard anything, Zen.

and Ivan, you WERE lucky. Lucky up until you strafed my virtual parachute, you monster! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now only bad things will happen to you, Mwahaha. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Fehler
03-15-2004, 08:24 AM
Zen,

I flew the 152 for the first time yesterday for a good bit and I made some observations.

First, let me preface this by saying that the 190 IS my ride of choice. I especially love the Dora even though for some it seems twitchy.

My stick settings are all geared for flying the 190, and I rarely if ever stall the plane... But I do know how close to the edge I can fly it before stall.

OK, so I took up the Ta and after these initial observations (Listed below) that the plane was impressive up high (Over 7k)

First thoughts:
1. Someone gimme a saw so I can cut a few feet off these glider wings they put on my Dora!
2. What's up with the bolts?
3. Man, these cannon rock!

Then I took her a little lower to do some energy fighting. I managed to get a couple kills with her right off the bat, so I got even cockier. I thought, OK, lets try and do some fast turn fighting... Nothing harsh, less than 60 degree turns keeping the speed up. Roll, pull back on stick... Vvvvvvppp stall. OK, I recovered the first one. Try that again, little less stick... Vvvvvvppp stall, flat spin, kiss the ground.

I managed to do that a few times before I decided to keep my attacks purely linier and vertical.

My point to all of this is I am sort of glad this plane is difficult to fly. It will be fun when/if I ever master it. That means people wont be calling it a noob plane when I start roasting them with it. But wow, the slip stall is like stepping on a handful of grapes in a grocery store.. and EVERYTHING you do with the plane has to be gentle or you will either stall or burn energy really fast. It got great dive speed, good zoom, devastating firepower, decent climb, and excellent high alt characteristics.

I like it! I think I will still prefer the Dora, however...

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

FW190fan
03-15-2004, 08:31 AM
Zen:

It is obvious you are on a crusade to make German planes better than they were in real life and at the same time cripple the Allied planes.

This kind of "luftwhining" has got to stop!


HAHA, JUST KIDDING BRO! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

Zen--
03-15-2004, 08:53 AM
Aw heck, am I that obvious lol?

No complaints really...just think that the stalling characteristics don't match real life accounts. If the spin and the stall could be seperated by a little more time, the plane would be probably be much more realistic in that area.

Most other things I am fine about, always have been.


-Zen-

BBB_Hyperion
03-15-2004, 08:56 AM
Zen btw you can add my Flatspin Recoverys to your server too . Also Crazy Ivan send me an Archive of his Flatspin attempts even in K4. Maybe a archive of illustrating Tracks can show user how to deal with it.

Regards,
Hyperion

Zen--
03-15-2004, 08:57 AM
Certainly Hype, I'll add yours as well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-