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ACfreak357
09-21-2010, 06:40 PM
Ok hey guys if theirs a topic like this already then dont flame me.

But I just want to know can you have your Brotherhood walking around with you when your just roaming the city cause I really am looking forward to that?

ACfreak357
09-21-2010, 06:40 PM
Ok hey guys if theirs a topic like this already then dont flame me.

But I just want to know can you have your Brotherhood walking around with you when your just roaming the city cause I really am looking forward to that?

iamdan28
09-21-2010, 06:46 PM
from what i see in videos you can call them to kill at any time butt i have yet to see or here that you can walk around with them

ACfreak357
09-21-2010, 06:57 PM
Well in 2 videos that I have seen you see Ezio walking on a roof with them with no targets around but it looks like they are ABOUT to assassinate someone here are the 2 videos if you wanna check for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLYaMkhs0Nk

AT 3:07 You can see the short clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU3lLlALCuk

And in this one from 1:12 to 1:21 the clip shows up 3 times.

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 01:44 AM
I seem to remember seeing them running along side Ezio in one of the gameplay trailers. It was the one where he was on the horse just before he recruits another man into the brotherhood and before he goes after one of the Borgia towers. The camera pans off to the left, and, for a brief moment, it looks like there are at least two assassins running among the buildings/terrain. I could be wrong... it was a very brief view of what I'm talking about.

I too want to see this. I wouldn't see why they wouldn't include the brotherhood members you've got as bodyguards. You had the thieves following you in ACII. Maybe Ubisoft figured out a way to make them smarter (or just appear off camera before you look for them).

jimbo11235813
09-22-2010, 02:40 AM
I don't think that you will see them unless they are programmed to be seen because it is probably very difficult to program AI to follow you and also get into position quickly when you target a character and call the brotherhood.

There have been videos where the brotherhood are seen climbing or running along ledges in buildings, but I'd assume that its because the player has to use them at that point (maybe its like a tutorial mission).

But, these are as good as guesses as I'm not a programmer.

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 02:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimbo_323:
I don't think that you will see them unless they are programmed to be seen because it is probably very difficult to program AI to follow you and also get into position quickly when you target a character and call the brotherhood.

There have been videos where the brotherhood are seen climbing or running along ledges in buildings, but I'd assume that its because the player has to use them at that point (maybe its like a tutorial mission).

But, these are as good as guesses as I'm not a programmer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it's too hard to get them to follow you. Not only that, but I've also seen some stuff where programmers use the fact that something is off screen to move it into another position. So if you have to look away from your brotherhood members to call them to attack those guys over there, then they can be moved while you aren't "looking" at them.

Or they could just shoot arrows, throw knives, or something else at your target. Or... and I kind of like this even better... you have to wait for them to get into position before you can call them to attack. Makes it more real that way.

So a combination of all those things (not just one individual idea) makes it not too difficult for the programmers to get it "right" I'd think. And, again, I'll mention the fact that they did have ******s, thugs, and thieves following you all the time in ACII. Adjust where and how they follow you, and...

EzioAssassin51
09-22-2010, 03:05 AM
At about 1:20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3i-PNcOAKo&feature=sub) of this Video, you see the Brotherhood running along side Ezio at a fair distance and in another gameplay trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K7zmXZvg9Q), you see a member running from a rooftop to assassinate a guard and then run off, and in that same vid, you see them getting into position to fight before they are called!

So it seems likely they will be close by so you can see them at some points, but not all the time.


And the ACFreak vids are silly examples (no offense) because they are like that just to show them and to look cool! It's highly unlikely you will actually be able to do that In-Game!

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioAssassin51:
At about 1:20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3i-PNcOAKo&feature=sub) of this Video, you see the Brotherhood running along side Ezio at a fair distance and in another gameplay trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K7zmXZvg9Q), you see a member running from a rooftop to assassinate a guard and then run off, and in that same vid, you see them getting into position to fight before they are called!

So it seems likely they will be close by so you can see them at some points, but not all the time.


And the ACFreak vids are silly examples (no offense) because they are like that just to show them and to look cool! It's highly unlikely you will actually be able to do that In-Game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first video was the one I was talking about.

And the second video has examples of some of my other ideas. LOL. Arrow shower. Oh, and I'd bet the assassin that ran in from nowhere and went to nowhere was using my idea of having them appear off camera and disappear off camera. When they can't be seen by the player, they just don't need to exist.

JohnConnor2012
09-22-2010, 04:09 AM
I can't see why they can't follow all the time technically--hired groups like thieves can, after all--but doubt they will on grounds of clutter and diminishing novelty.

Personally, I think it would soon get pretty annoying anyway as they're bound to work overtime on novel ways to plummet from great heights, drown themselves or alert guards, just like any other dumb-as-dirt AI companions.

I accept that (probably near the finale) that it'll probably be scripted for the whole brotherhood to turn up and fight, but would be cautious about arguing from promo vids, even if not actually labelled 'Not actual gameplay'. No doubt they go through a lot of material to just edit in the coolest-looking highlights.

EzioAssassin51
09-22-2010, 04:26 AM
Keep in mind John, that UBI aren't gonna rpogram them to be as dumb as thieves or mercs from AC2! You're going to be spending time on this, so I'm betting UBI are going to make sure they are very smart and won't die in every fight they get in!

And yes, they would get the best so it looks good and people will think it'd cool, but i doubt the rest is all horse manure that is so crap that by showing it it will destroy the game (over-exaggerated i know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JohnConnor2012:
I can't see why they can't follow all the time technically--hired groups like thieves can, after all--but doubt they will on grounds of clutter and diminishing novelty.

Personally, I think it would soon get pretty annoying anyway as they're bound to work overtime on novel ways to plummet from great heights, drown themselves or alert guards, just like any other dumb-as-dirt AI companions.

I accept that (probably near the finale) that it'll probably be scripted for the whole brotherhood to turn up and fight, but would be cautious about arguing from promo vids, even if not actually labelled 'Not actual gameplay'. No doubt they go through a lot of material to just edit in the coolest-looking highlights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I understand, those were gameplay videos. They mentioned in the second one that the sequence wasn't an actual mission, but they said it was meant to show off the gameplay... What part of the videos do you think should have been labeled 'not actual gameplay'? It looked very similar to ACII gameplay to me with a few new features that the videos were meant to show off.

I don't think you understand the concept of intelligently programmed brotherhood members. I'm betting that a lot of the time you won't even see them before (or even after) you call in an attack. The arrow shower only comes when you target a group of victims and activate the attack. In fact, I'd bet that any time you call in the brotherhood you have to target an enemy... know what that means?! The camera is going to lock on to the enemy which frees up the AI to appear where needed (out of view), move into position (entering view), to attack intelligently, and escape (leaving view to disappear).

I still think there will be many times where you can look to your sides to see brotherhood members present. But there will probably be very few times where those guys running beside you can be called to attack an enemy that's visible at the same time they are (due to camera locking onto the enemy).

I bet your argument about falling from great distances will be negated by the Leonardo-made parachute. And enemy AI can be trained to ignore certain other AIs. This means that your brotherhood members may, in fact, never alert guards unless they are ordered to attack. Heck, the AI for those brotherhood members could be programmed to avoid guards at all costs. Oh, and your drowning argument... Did you even play ACII? You can swim just fine, and I'd assume it won't take too much to allow a few brotherhood members to swim rather than drown.

Give the game designers and programmers some credit. I don't even work for a game company, and I can think of creative ways to ensure what you're CONVINCED will happen won't happen. I'm not saying it would be easy to program such features, but it is possible.

Why such a negative outlook on something that could, quite easily, be so cool?

JohnConnor2012
09-22-2010, 11:49 AM
Wow, you sound tiresomely irate, don't you? I could point the fanboy finger at you but, frankly, think people will be too busy laughing at the idea of the rest of the Brotherhood having equippable Leonardo-style parachutes available. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Kind of sums up just how much you're overcompensating here.

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JohnConnor2012:
Wow, you sound tiresomely irate, don't you? I could point the fanboy finger at you but, frankly, think people will be too busy laughing at the idea of the rest of the Brotherhood having equippable Leonardo-style parachutes available. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Kind of sums up just how much you're overcompensating here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not overcompensating, I'm creatively troubleshooting. I'm sure there are other ways to prevent them from falling to their deaths, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that you will have a Leonardo made parachute in Brotherhood. Is it really that laughable?

Checked with Amazon and here's a quote:
"Swiftly eliminate your enemies using tools such as poison darts, parachutes , double hidden blades, hidden guns, and an advanced flying machine at your disposal"

So unless they remove that feature before gold is released... please explain why that is so laughable?

And I wouldn't call myself a fanboi, I'm more of a game designer brained person. If there isn't already a solution, think of a creative way to fix the problem. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JohnConnor2012
09-22-2010, 01:45 PM
It's laughable to suggest that what is clearly a highly specialist item--apparently, you can steer it much like Leonardo's AC2 glider so that Ezio can, for instance, land on a horse's saddle from 20 floors up or whatever--is going to be issued to cookie cutter NPC assassins as standard issue.

You'll see that the customisation options--bought from off-screen mission experience--are like no armour/weak armour/tough armour with slightly more variety on weapons, costume colours and incidental sundries - pretty broad brushstrokes. Can't see the parachute fitting in with this picture or especially sophisticated 'extra' AI.

Ubi are solving the limitations of AI rather more easily than handing out parachutes. Ezio's back up won't be around long enough to get themselves into serious trouble - just BAM and gone, which is what I said in my original post and which provoked your rather amusing outraged reaction.

I accept if Ubi are improving combat AI across the board, then guild members will perform better. Not that inclined to call many to join Ezio in a big rooftop fight though....

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JohnConnor2012:
It's laughable to suggest that what is clearly a highly specialist item--apparently, you can steer it much like Leonardo's AC2 glider so that Ezio can, for instance, land on a horse's saddle from 20 floors up or whatever--is going to be issued to cookie cutter NPC assassins as standard issue.

You'll see that the customisation options--bought from off-screen mission experience--are like no armour/weak armour/tough armour with slightly more variety on weapons, costume colours and incidental sundries - pretty broad brushstrokes. Can't see the parachute fitting in with this picture or especially sophisticated 'extra' AI.

Ubi are solving the limitations of AI rather more easily than handing out parachutes. Ezio's back up won't be around long enough to get themselves into serious trouble - just BAM and gone, which is what I said in my original post and which provoked your rather amusing outraged reaction.

I accept if Ubi are improving combat AI across the board, then guild members will perform better. Not that inclined to call many to join Ezio in a big rooftop fight though.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First I want to say that neither of my previous responses to you were meant to sound "irate" or "outraged" as I was and am neither. I must admit that your misinterpretation of me and slightly condescending remarks about my ideas are beginning to make me slightly aggravated, but nothing more. I'm sorry if I didn't more explicitly say that I wasn't upset in my posts. I just didn't even think that would be something you'd infer.

As for the parachutes idea, I did state in my previous post that there are other ways to prevent them from plummeting to their deaths. But I guess you've whittled away all my good creative ideas/solutions to only make fun of the one I stretched a bit to produce: parachutes. And why would a basic parachute be so difficult to reproduce for the rest of the brotherhood? I haven't seen the design yet, but I'd guess it isn't too complex for the time period. Is it really that much of a stretch?

Why do you feel the need to attack me in such a way (sorry if the word "attack" sounds too harsh, I just can't think of a better, softer word at the moment)? I do admit. There were one or two phrases that were a bit harsh toward you in my first response, and I'm sorry if that offended you. I didn't think they were TOO harsh. I am sorry though.

And if you look at my first response, I actually mostly agree with what you just said, "Ezio's back-up won't be around long enough to get themselves into serious trouble - just BAM and gone..." I'm just saying that there could be another separate AI Brotherhood group that is meant to follow/flank you so you can look over and see them. You know... for an ambient feel of, "Wow. Look at that... they have my back." That way they aren't always or mostly invisible throughout the game unless scripted to do so or called to attack.

EDIT

And if you look at my two posts before your first post to this thread, I agree with you again. Appear off camera to enter view, attack, and leave view to disappear. We just don't agree on the difficulty of getting the flanking brotherhood to be smart enough to be considered smarter-than-dirt.

I know I want them to be there to see whenever I want to look over. I'm excited to see if they get it to work, as ACfreak357 seems to feel as well. Don't you think it would be cool if they got it to work well?

JohnConnor2012
09-22-2010, 03:16 PM
Phrases like "I don't think you understand..." and "Did you even play...?" really don't suggest an even or polite tone. Obviously, I do understand and have played, so the only reason to include such rhetoric is to belittle (i.e. patronise). You could have learned something from the much more even-toned post that preceded yours.

Still, now you have recovered your good manners, I am happy enough to reciprocate.

You don't really address my point about the parachute being highly specialist equipment that requires a lot of player (rather than AI) guidance to use properly and so not likely to go to other guild members but, quite rightly, you appreciate it's not the crux of the argument. Even if they land safely, there'll be all that climbing up again - the point, surely, is for them to be smart enough not to fall off the roof in the first place.

The real argument is whether Ubi are going to go to an extra special effort with NPC assassins or whether their AI is going to be pretty much on a par with other NPCs like thieves or escort mission types, who occassionally do pretty dumb things. I accept that there's likely to be a bigger range of options in terms of defence / offensive tactics, likely generated out of how the selected guildmembers are equipped, but doubt Ubi are going to put much extra work in beyond this. There are limits re. processing power, but otherwise I can't see why they don't crank up pathing and combat AI across the board (e.g. for guards) if they have a model that works for NPC assassins in particular.

In terms of 'sideways glances', the problem is deciding when Ezio's alone and when he isn't. Probably more economical to leave 'companions' out of the picture entirely until BAM is activated.

A small final point on gameplay: all I said is that in them even if it's not wholly scripted, you're seeing the very best in trailers, not what ended up on the cutting room floor, so it's difficult to argue about its general quality from them.

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JohnConnor2012:
Phrases like "I don't think you understand..." and "Did you even play...?" really don't suggest an even or polite tone. Obviously, I do understand and have played, so the only reason to include such rhetoric is to belittle (i.e. patronise). You could have learned something from the much more even-toned post that preceded yours.

Still, now you have recovered your good manners, I am happy enough to reciprocate.

You don't really address my point about the parachute being highly specialist equipment that requires a lot of player (rather than AI) guidance to use properly and so not likely to go to other guild members but, quite rightly, you appreciate it's not the crux of the argument. Even if they land safely, there'll be all that climbing up again - the point, surely, is for them to be smart enough not to fall off the roof in the first place.

The real argument is whether Ubi are going to go to an extra special effort with NPC assassins or whether their AI is going to be pretty much on a par with other NPCs like thieves or escort mission types, who occassionally do pretty dumb things. I accept that there's likely to be a bigger range of options in terms of defence / offensive tactics, likely generated out of how the selected guildmembers are equipped, but doubt Ubi are going to put much extra work in beyond this. There are limits re. processing power, but otherwise I can't see why they don't crank up pathing and combat AI across the board (e.g. for guards) if they have a model that works for NPC assassins in particular.

In terms of 'sideways glances', the problem is deciding when Ezio's alone and when he isn't. Probably more economical to leave 'companions' out of the picture entirely until BAM is activated.

A small final point on gameplay: all I said is that in them even if it's not wholly scripted, you're seeing the very best in trailers, not what ended up on the cutting room floor, so it's difficult to argue about its general quality from them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said, one or two phrases that were a bit harsh. If those tainted the entire, long-winded post, I'm sorry for that. I don't think my second response lacked manners, but at least I apologized. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with you not insulting or making fun of my ideas in your last response.

Who says the use of the parachutes has to be complex. For AI's it could just be an animation of them falling slowly and landing with no control on the part of the AI (though that's pretty overly simply in terms of what could be done).

I don't agree that Ubi will not put in the effort. The game is subtitled "Brotherhood" after all. I'd imagine that any way they can effectively show off or feature the brotherhood would go with the theme and make the game better.

Why would Ezio need to be alone to see the brotherhood moving off in the shadows? I'd bet they could even have areas or zones where they make themselves more visible and zones where you just can't see them at all. Maybe the flanking brotherhood will even just stay on the ground or climb minimally (to remain more incognito). And what if the economical issue isn't there at all? What if the AI can be there without causing any issues?

It seems like you're arguing to not have them there for some reason. I want them there. I think it would be cool to have them flanking me almost all the time (maybe just not visible on major missions or when I'm spotted and being chased... when they'd be being http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif more stealthy).

Don't you think it would be cool if they were there and work just fine? I think that would add to the dimensions/dynamics of the game. Don't you?

MolochXX
09-22-2010, 03:52 PM
I won't be particularly heartbroken if the brotherhood isn't constantly within sight. Not only do I not think it practical, the idea doesn't even sound very appealing. There's too many opportunities for the AI to do something stupid and shatter the immersion. I'd like to be able to leave it to imagination, to imagine them almost always hidden but ready to strike at your call. Having three guys constantly around you would just end up being annoying.

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MolochXX:
I won't be particularly heartbroken if the brotherhood isn't constantly within sight. Not only do I not think it practical, the idea doesn't even sound very appealing. There's too many opportunities for the AI to do something stupid and shatter the immersion. I'd like to be able to leave it to imagination, to imagine them almost always hidden but ready to strike at your call. Having three guys constantly around you would just end up being annoying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well of course not. Having them be visible all the time would require them to be walking right next to you or in front of you all the time. And, yes, that would just get annoying after a while. If they're off screen to the sides and behind you, flanking you, then it would make it less annoying. Wouldn't it? You'd only see them for a while if you turn the camera to the side(s).

If they don't pull off the flanking brotherhood members well, then I can agree with you and JohnConner. If they pull it off in an elegant and economical way, then I think it would be good.

ACfreak357
09-22-2010, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MolochXX:
I won't be particularly heartbroken if the brotherhood isn't constantly within sight. Not only do I not think it practical, the idea doesn't even sound very appealing. There's too many opportunities for the AI to do something stupid and shatter the immersion. I'd like to be able to leave it to imagination, to imagine them almost always hidden but ready to strike at your call. Having three guys constantly around you would just end up being annoying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys im not talking about having them constantly around you im just talkin about pressing a few buttons or doin somthin in the menu that makes them follow you around in free roam then when you dont want them to just undo what you did.

RandomRansom
09-22-2010, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfreak357:

Guys im not talking about having them constantly around you im just talkin about pressing a few buttons or doin somthin in the menu that makes them follow you around in free roam then when you dont want them to just undo what you did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh... that's an even better idea. More power to the player. I'd even want to combine your and my concepts. The flanking brotherhood guys (with all their AI stuff I mentioned) that you can turn on and off. Or maybe you could even specify a distance for them to follow you. "Stay within 15 meters of me." "Stay within 2 meters of me."

Now I'm making things too complex, aren't I? LOL

TheMusingMoose
09-22-2010, 05:53 PM
Thank you, RandomRansom for reading the Original post... Also, all the assassins having parachutes would make it less fun to use...

tyman1122
09-22-2010, 09:18 PM
Like I said many times.....I am not having a Brotherhood help me. I am more than capable on doing it BY MYSELF!!!

EzioAssassin51
09-23-2010, 12:38 AM
Ok, we get it tyman. You don't have to post this is every thread about the Brotherhood!

And you say it as though we were accusing you of not being able to! We say go ahead and do it. You'll just be missing out on an awesome new feature of the game... and who knows. Maybe Ubi decided to make the game hard and you need the Brotherhood to help you out to stay alive!

RandomRansom
09-23-2010, 01:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JonnyQuickShot:
Thank you, RandomRansom for reading the Original post... Also, all the assassins having parachutes would make it less fun to use... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, like I said, that is only one possible way to prevent the flanking or called in brotherhood members from plummeting to his or her death. You are entitled to your opinion, though. For me, it wouldn't cheapen the effect of being able to use the parachute, especially if their parachutes were only cheaper imitations that only allow them not to die when falling.

Caligula__
09-23-2010, 01:20 AM
parachutes can only be used once, and then you've gotta buy a new one

On a side note: Is a thread talking about what u want to be able to do in AC Brotherhood?