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Mike8686
09-01-2004, 02:26 AM
I dunno about any FW190 Aces. Who was the greatest Focke-Wulf Ace of WWII? Any suggested reading (Something along te lines of "The Blonde Knight of Germany")


Now that I think of it, I'd aprreciate if u guys can answer the exact same question but about the Me-262 instead

Mike8686
09-01-2004, 02:26 AM
I dunno about any FW190 Aces. Who was the greatest Focke-Wulf Ace of WWII? Any suggested reading (Something along te lines of "The Blonde Knight of Germany")


Now that I think of it, I'd aprreciate if u guys can answer the exact same question but about the Me-262 instead

The_Ant
09-01-2004, 02:31 AM
The greatest Fw 190 ace is austrian born Walter nowotny with a kill score of 258.

I recomend 2 books for you if you whant tooread about Focke wulf aces.

Fock wulf Aces on the Eastern front
and
Focke wulf aces on Western front
by John weal published by osprey.
they cover all aces which flew the fw190

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]

The_Ant
09-01-2004, 02:37 AM
forgott to tell you the books are 96 pages each and containes various drawings of Fw-190 models flown,which unit whom operated them,and some pictures of the aces aircrafts.And most important the stories of the aces which flew them.

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 02:43 AM
And this is what he looked like -

http://www.messerschmitt109.com/lionel/wn.jpg

Regards,

Jasko
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The_Ant
09-01-2004, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike8686:
I dunno about any FW190 Aces. Who was the greatest Focke-Wulf Ace of WWII? Any suggested reading (Something along te lines of "The Blonde Knight of Germany")


Now that I think of it, I'd aprreciate if u guys can answer the exact same question but about the Me-262 instead<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

about the 262 question same goes here, read the book: german jet aces of ww2 by john weal,
hes a great writer and have written many good books about the luftwaffe.

If you whant too know who had most kills in a 262? i think that was Heinz b√¬§r with 16 kills in a 262.

[Si Vis Pacem,Para Bellum = If you wish for peace, prepare for war.]

Jasko76
09-01-2004, 02:56 AM
Here's another photo of Nowotny -

http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/nowotny_color.jpeg

Would have made a nice sig, but the guy was a hardocre nazi.

Regards,

Jasko
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Jasko76
09-01-2004, 03:07 AM
Some more aces -

Heinz "Pritzl" B√¬§r
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/baer2.jpeg

Gerhard Barkhorn
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Barkhorn4.jpeg

Adolf Galland
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Galland_farbig.jpeg

Hermann Graf
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Graf2.jpeg

Alfred Grislawski
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Grislawski.jpeg

Anton Hackl
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Hackl.jpeg

Hans "Assi" Hanhn
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Hahn.jpeg

"Booby" Hartmann
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Hartmann2.jpeg

Heinz Knoke
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Knoke.jpeg

Walter "Graf Punski" Krupinski
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Krupinski.jpeg

Josef "Pips" Priller
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Priller4.jpeg

G√ľnther Rall
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Rall2.jpeg

Erich Rudorffer
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Rudorffer.jpeg

Johannes Steinhoff
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Steinhoff.jpeg

Hannes Trautloft
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Trautloft2.jpg

Helmut Wick (top scoring LW pilot during BoB)
http://www.germanfighteraces.com/parts/Wick.jpeg

Regards,

Jasko
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Jasko76
09-01-2004, 03:23 AM
By the way, highest scoring Me 262 ace was Oblt. Kurt Welter, scoring 29 out of his 63 victories in Me 262.

Spitfire killer - Josef Priller, 68 Spitfires/101 total

Sturmovik killer - Otto Kittel, 94 Sturmos/267 total

P-47 killer - Wilhelm Hoffman, 13/44 total

P-38 killer - Heinrich Bartels, 14/99 total

P-51 killer - Wilhelm Steinmann, 11+/44 total

Tank killer - Heinz-Ulrich Rudel, 519+ tanks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Regards,

Jasko
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ASM 1
09-01-2004, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Would have made a nice sig, but the guy was a hardocre nazi.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but I wouldn't like to die the way he did - roasted alive in his 262, apparently according to Galland, all that was left of him was his Knight's cross and some teeth.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

S!

Andrew

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DuxCorvan
09-01-2004, 04:43 AM
If I remember well, he was vulched on landing, wasn't he? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

falco_cz
09-01-2004, 04:51 AM
http://www.luftwaffe.cz

EFG_beber
09-01-2004, 05:03 AM
http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/index.html

csThor
09-01-2004, 05:07 AM
Where did you get the impression that Nowotny was a hardcore-Nazi?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I'd rather say he was like many other successful fighter pilots: a bit arrogant (getting worse with fame), keen on new decorations, a bit egocentric etc ... His letters to one of his brothers clearly state that he liked the public attention (which would be translated attention by female "fans" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) ...

He was some kind of playboy (there is a story about Hitler congratulating him via phone for the Swords to his Knights Cross while Nowy was in a full bar in Vilnius, helplessly drunken and with a few girls around him), a bit of a narcist and marvelous pilot - but not a good commanding officer.

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ASM 1
09-01-2004, 05:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
If I remember well, he was vulched on landing, wasn't he? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah - and the 262 he was in was not combat ready. But he went out in it "in the huff" so to speak because Galland was trying to ground him -wanted to prove a point.....

S!

Andrew

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/asm016/WW2%20Stuff/Sig_Pic.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
09-01-2004, 05:58 AM
btw, wasnt it Otto Kittel with the most kills in a Fw190 ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
267 kills in total , less than 40 of them in Bf109

PraetorHonoris
09-01-2004, 06:07 AM
@ csThor:

Nowotny was the leader of the Hitler Youth in Austria, although the HJ was forbitten there until 1938 and he was a party member of the NSDAP as soon as it was possible, beeing 18 (01.05.1938).

I don't know whether this makes him an hardcore nazi, but he was a Nazi in his youth no doubt about that.

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"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

Tvrdi
09-01-2004, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3454/boss2.jpg
I want one of these to replace my rice!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

di si nasao tu kantu... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

horseback
09-01-2004, 08:07 AM
Jasko-

About the sig-I think the American idiom would translate it as "I want one of these to replace my rice burner!" When you do replace that rice burner, you'll want to check out this site:

http://www.mustangsplus.com

one of my brothers is the manager-tell Bill that Brian sent you.

On the thread topic, if skill, rather than numbers, is what makes one greatest, let's not forget luminaries like Adolph Glunz or 'Sepp' Wurmheller in the West.

While we're at it, why is it that some pilots (like Nowotny, for example) really blossomed once they got their hands on the 190?

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

csThor
09-01-2004, 08:50 AM
Well flying a combat aircraft in a dogfight and hitting the enemy are two very different pairs of shoes. The most prominent example for the success after switching to the Fw 190 is definitely Otto Kittel (only some 30-40 kills on Bf 109's since June 1941, 267 kills at the time of his death in Feb 1945), with men like Joachim Brendel or G√ľnther Josten being other examples of such a "sudden success".

Men like M√¬∂lders, Rall or Marseilles were masters in aerial gunnery and did not need an extensive armament, but the far majority of pilots were not so efficient. Galland used his status to adjust armament in his Bf 109 F to make up for his "not so high" shooting skills but an ordinary Unteroffizier or Feldwebel could not. For them the Fw 190 was sent from heaven, because they now had the chance to actually inflict lethal damage on an opponent without needing sniper skills http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I can understand them quite fine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

EDIT: Praetor - thanks. Now I remember reading something about it. On the other hand he didn't seem to have put his "political beliefs" on public display as no such stories are left over from his service with JG 54. If he had he would have not been happy within JG 54 since Trautloft was not a friend of the NSDAP (to put it mildly, Galland remembers him refusing to use the name "Adolf" at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif ).

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JG14_Josf
09-01-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the guy was a hardocre nazi. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Satements like the above have no value, certainly not here on this board, and in fact are counterproductive toward communication.

'hardcore nazi' is what?

A person eager to conduct medical experiments on children?

Do you see my point?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the guy was a hardocre nazi. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just what exactly does that mean and what does it have to do with a combat flight sim?

After reading that statement my opinion of a military combat pilot is adjusted toward the possibility that he was some sort of deviant pshyco mass murdering criminal.

'hardcore nazi'

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

Hardcore Nazi:

1. Pornographic film star that wears swastica's on his butt?
2. Deeply affected nationalistic youth
3. Child mass murderer and tormentor

I did not invent the baggage glommed onto those words. I understand that those word do convey meaning and to ignore the possible meaning being communicated is foolish, in my opinion.

If Nowoty was anything more than an effective fighter pilot then that fact has not been communicated to me.

On the contrary this thread serves only to politicize the issue.

Ankanor
09-01-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
If he had he would have not been happy within JG 54 since Trautloft was not a friend of the NSDAP (to put it mildly, Galland remembers him refusing to use the name "Adolf" at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif ).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He used "Adam" instead. Adam Hitler? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

Chuck_Older
09-01-2004, 10:38 AM
Off the top of my head, I would have said Baer. I knew Nowotny flew 190s, but how many of his kills came in the 190? Did I miss a post?

Praetor doesn't say very much, but you can bet that when he does say something, it's worth listening to.

How did the joke go? Germany (in the '30s and '40s) had an Imperial Navy, a Prussian Army, and a National Socialist air force. Seems to me that strangely, the Luftwaffe had more than it's share of nazis, while the Kreigsmarine had less actual nazis in proportion to it's size. Whether or not the guy was good or bad, dead's dead and he's gone to talk to Big Daddy Upstairs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Clash

csThor
09-01-2004, 11:55 AM
@ Ankanor:

Of course only when they were among themselves. One thing people learned very fast after 1933 was when keep your mouth shut or what to say in public. But Galland remembers Trautloft callign him "Adam Galland" all the time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

@ Chuck:

That has to do with history. Post 1918 there was no Luftwaffe and when reformed (officially) in 1935 there were many young men influenced by the NS propaganda. On the other hand the Kriegsmarine and the Heer had a long tradition and many officers (especially higher ranking ones) had started their service under Wilhelm II and so had a totally different set of beliefs than the NSDAP. Hitler never trusted the Heer at all (especially post 1941) and before D√¬∂nitz took over the Kriegsmarine he was not too keen on praising this branch of the Wehrmacht, either.

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Kartveli
09-01-2004, 12:17 PM
I hope you dont base that on the fact he was in Hitler Youth...

Hitler Youth was what replaced Boy Scots, in Germany after 1933

True, it involved some political indocrination, but mostly it operated much the same as the Boy Scots in UK and USA, with the semi-christian aspect replaced with a national-socailist one

Membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory for kids from I think 13 onwards..at least in the urban areas...

One should never, ever, equate being in the Hitler Youth with being a Nazi....this is just not the case...besides, only a NSDAP Party member was a "true" Nazi, and those ammounted to about less than 1 or 2% of the entire German population...

Of course, most German citizens went along with the party line following economic growth and early war victiries.....

In 1941, when Hitler commited to attacking Russia, Germans finally started to realize "something was rotten in the state of Denmark"

Plots by the German Army's General staff to depose or even kill Hitler were brought about as soon as 1938, and even attempted (assination) several times, even before the July 20 Bunker Bomb incident...

Wonder how far Hitler would have gone if he kept his true last name...."Schiklgruber"? lol

I don't know whether this makes him an hardcore nazi, but he was a Nazi in his youth no doubt about that.

Kartveli
09-01-2004, 12:18 PM
ummmm I was quoting the line "I dont know if this makes him an hardcore nazi, but he was a nazi in his youth no doubt about that
(in reference to nowotny)

JG14_Josf
09-01-2004, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>a National Socialist air force. Seems to me that strangely, the Luftwaffe had more than it's share of nazis <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is encouraging that the moderators allow these things. They need to be fleshed out, I think. However, there are places for such political ideas and this thread is, in my opinion not one of them.

In order to bridge the enourmous gap between the topic post and politics it may help to refer to Christer Bergstrom new book Graf and Grislawski.

Graf did fly a 190 during his career and Christer Bergstrom's new book says this about these fighter pilots and politics:

page 12

"To Hermann Graf, Adolf Hitler's and the Nazi Machtubernahme or the seizure of power in 1933 meant that he would be allowed to fly "for real". However, he was not only uninterested in the Nazi's authoritarian and racial politics, the humanitarian education that he had received from his mother, and the cosmopolitan outlook of soccer ineveitably turned him against such attitudes. He even is reported to have utilized his work at Engen town hall to help Jewish families to escape to Switzerland."

and concerning Grislawski:

page 15

"In consequence, when Alfred left school at the age of fourteen, his refusal to join the HJ blocked his continued higher studies. By that time, the Nazi Party had assumed total control over the State. When Alfred applied for higher education, the Party officials at the City Hall blatantly told him that anyone who refused to join the HJ would have to search for something else."

Well researched information is valuable when trying to form opinions.

Here is a quote concerning Nowoty:

"Despite the apparent lack of official appreciation, Nowotny went from strenght to strength. He had around him three inseparable companions: his Katschmarek, Karl 'Quax'Schnorrer (whose unusual nickname derived from a popular film of the period chronicling the misadventures of an accident-prone pilot), Anton 'Toni' Dobele and Rudof Rademacher. This team, the Nowotny-Schwarm, became justly famous - between them they accounted for 524 enemy aircraft destroyed!"

The above quote is on page 68 from:
Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front
by
John Weal

Stormbird
is another book that concerns the topic title. It is a biography on Hermann Buchner

In the back of that book are copies of Buchner's Flugbuch.

The first entry for a mission flying the FW190 dates:
12.6. 1943
Flight number 2148

The last was dated:
22.10. 1944
Flight number 2625

In Hermann Buchner's bio there is this on politics:

page 11

"The next morning yes, as usual, daily watch. An assembly had been ordered at 7am in the canteen. All Geschwader personnel were there and some soldiers were wearing a swastika armband. The most senior officer present announced the arrival of the Barracks Kommandant. Major Feldpilot Marenkowitsch. The Kommandant gave a rousing speech for Austria, stating that "our Fatherland is in danger". "He was no German", he declared, "no, he was an Austrian". At the end, he asked all soldiers present to sing the national anthem. Everyone in the room joined in and sang the old national hymn from Haydn. After the last note had faded away, some SA men stepped onto the stage and arrested him."
"From that time onwards, the majority of the station staff wore the swastika arm band on their uniform."

Hermann Buchner flew his FW 190 on May 9 1944 on a 'Jager-Schlachter' mission with a Hauptmann from JG52 flying a 109 that had Kommandeur pennants on the side of the tail. That 109 pilot's handle was 'Christian'.

On that sortie Buchner shot down a Yak 9 and an IL2.

Buchner was not the highest scoring Schlachtfleiger according to John Weal's book.

page 44. FW Aces of the Russian Front:
"The most successful Schlachtflieger in terms of aerial kills was 5./SG 2's Leutnant August Lambert...had downed 116 aircraft."

tovari
09-01-2004, 03:25 PM
And what about Sepp Wurmheller?

PraetorHonoris
09-01-2004, 04:43 PM
@ Kartveli

I know what the Hitler Youth was and being there does not make you a Nazi, sure.

1918 Nowotny was born in the Waldviertel (don't know how you call it in english) in Austria.
In Austria, the Hitler Youth was illegal until Austria was annexed by Hitler.
And Nowotny did not just join the Hilter Youth in Austria... he was the leader of a major group (Vienna) within it.
Moreover, when he became 18, he immediatly joined the NSDAP in 1938.

He was a nazi in his youth. Well, I mean didn't you make some faults when you were 15 or didn't you hang around with the wrong guys?
In his military career he fought honorable, he did not commit any crimes (as far as I know).
That is why I do not condamn him.

@ Chuck

Thanks for the kind words. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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p1ngu666
09-01-2004, 05:05 PM
my post is missing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

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Magister__Ludi
09-01-2004, 05:32 PM
I like this flight suit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Nowotny is the guy preparing for flight.

http://www.luftwaffe3945.hpg.ig.com.br/ases/nowotny.jpg

MK2aw
09-01-2004, 06:04 PM
"Oblt. Kurt Welter, scoring 29 out of his 63 victories in Me 262"

Jasko76 I have never heard of this . Where did you get this information?

BTW I collect ace autographs and have everyone on this thread except Helmut Wick :-(

berg417448
09-01-2004, 06:30 PM
you should take Welter's claims with a grain of salt. He was known to "exagerate" his claims. Even some of his own pilots were suspicious of his claims in the 262. Examination after the war revealed that he claimed kills of Mosquitos on some nights when the RAF didn't lose any Mosquitos.

He certainly made some kills in the 262 but be careful accepting them all.

JG14_Josf
09-01-2004, 07:32 PM
Figher Aces of the Luftwaffe
by
Toliver and Constable list:

Appendix 3
Luftwaffe Jet Aces of World War II

1. Bar, Heinz (Heinrich) 16
2. Schall, Franz 16
3. Rademacher, Rudolf 16
4. Buchner, Hermann 12

BerkshireHunt
09-01-2004, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
@ Kartveli

I know what the Hitler Youth was and being there does not make you a Nazi, sure.

1918 Nowotny was born in the Waldviertel (don't know how you call it in english) in Austria.
In Austria, the Hitler Youth was _illegal_ until Austria was annexed by Hitler.
And Nowotny did not just join the Hilter Youth in Austria... he was the _leader_ of a major group (Vienna) within it.
Moreover, when he became 18, he immediatly joined the NSDAP in 1938.

He was a nazi in his youth. Well, I mean didn't you make some faults when you were 15 or didn't you hang around with the wrong guys?
In his military career he fought honorable, he did not commit any crimes (as far as I know).
That is why I do not condamn him.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I vaguely remember a lot of fuss being made about this in Austria last year. A politician suggested that Nowotny's grave should be removed from its 'heros' plot and relocated elsewhere- because he had been an NSDAP member. Some people agreed, some said it was all academic now. I don't know what was finally decided.
It's important to understand that the Luftwaffe contained a cross section of German (and Austrian) society- just as the other services did. People who maintain that all German pilots were 'honourable warriors who spurned nazism' are just as wide of the mark as people who say that all Germans supported Hitler during WW2.
The fact is, some Luftwaffe pilots, aces too, were nazi party members- and that meant they were anti- semites.
Gordon Gollob, Hajo Hermann, Heinz Knoke and Hans Ulrich Rudel come instantly to mind; the last three continued to espouse far- right politics well into the 1960s.
And those are just the few we know about- after the war not many Germans were keen to reveal they had been party members (because of what other party members had been doing at Auschwitz). Let's not forget either that you didn't have to be a party member to support what it did. Major Erich Mix of JG77 was a close personal friend of none other than Reinhard Heydrich, architect of the 'final solution' and Himmler's deputy. They even flew together on operations for a while. There is a well- known photograph of them having tea together and laughing; mass- murdering SS man and his mate, the Luftwaffe Kommodore.
The Head of the Luftwaffe, Herman Goering is characterised as a fat oaf by Adolf Galland but he was far from it; he was an extremely dangerous man to cross, a brutal thug and a leading nazi. He set up and ran the Gestapo for the first year of its existence and later advocated the starvation of all Russian soldiers taken prisoner during 'Barbarossa' (100,000)- which tells you all you need to know about his character (Hitler took his advice, by the way).
Of course, being a party member meant different things at different times because the party's agenda evolved. When Nowotny joined in 1938 he must have been aware of the nazi race laws, which were designed to protect German blood by forbidding jews to marry aryans (and as a party member, he must have supported them). He must also have been aware of the wave of jew- baiting which swept the country in 1938 culminating in the destruction of jewish- owned shops ('krystallnacht')- unless he was blind or never read the newspapers. Abuse against jews was everywhere; smeared and daubed on street corners, on shop windows and on posters (cartoons showing jews being beheaded or burned). Brownshirts were beating up jews in the streets of every major German city.
But, like a lot of people he no doubt thought this was nothing to do with him personally.
Later on (after 1941), being a party member required you to believe in 'Lebensraum'- Germany's right to occupy eastern Europe, the racial inferiority of the slavs and to assist in any way demanded of you, in 'the removal of the jewish virus from national life'.
So I tend to take a charitable view of men like Nowotny- he joined the party when he was young and immature and he could hardly have imagined where it would all end.
Others, such as those mentioned above, are harder to fathom. To have seen film of the concentration camps and to have heard the Nuremburg testimonies and yet to STILL support what Hitler tried to achieve... well..that is the definition of a 'hard- core nazi'.

wayno7777
09-01-2004, 10:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

JG53Frankyboy

posted Sep 01, 07:58 AM
btw, wasnt it Otto Kittel with the most kills in a Fw190 ?
267 kills in total , less than 40 of them in Bf109





Originally posted by csThor:
The most prominent example for the success after switching to the Fw 190 is definitely Otto Kittel (only some 30-40 kills on Bf 109's since June 1941, 267 kills at the time of his death in Feb 1945), with men like Joachim Brendel or G√ľnther Josten being other examples of such a "sudden success".

csThor's skins @ Il2skins.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Otto Kittel is probably the most over looked top ace. It was a Sturmovik that got him.
add: http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Kittel.html


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Dux_Wreck.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

[This message was edited by wayno7777 on Wed September 01 2004 at 09:24 PM.]

h009291
09-01-2004, 10:38 PM
Here is a more "informed" history of Nowotny and his death:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pilots_day/W_Nowotny.html

http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg

Bearcat99
09-01-2004, 10:43 PM
Well I want to thank you guys for keeping reatively cool heads and not letting thus thread turn into a flame fest. Ill let it stay open as long as it doesnt get ugly... although it got a bit iffy for a bit...

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