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Breeze147
03-09-2007, 06:33 AM
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion.

Breeze147
03-09-2007, 06:33 AM
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion.

stalkervision
03-09-2007, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is problem at all. Just think of them all as someone that owes you money.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

GreyBeast
03-09-2007, 06:41 AM
It's more a matter of NATIONALISM vs. RACISM, isn't it?

I'm assuming you're Caucasian.

According to

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus</pre>

that makes you part Turkish, part Iranian, and part Russian.

Now how about that?

ploughman
03-09-2007, 07:09 AM
I know what you mean Breeze. Took me a few years before I was able to shoot down a Spitfire and I felt proper dirty afterwards.

BadA1m
03-09-2007, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem, M8 is that you expect there to be an inteligent conversation around here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I can relate to your problem but I think at least for me it's just a matter of play acting here and, well someone has to wear the black hat (I apoligize if I have offended anyone, I did not mean to cast dispersions on any one who wears black hats or any national or ethnic groups who may be associated with said hats) and besides you restrict yourself so much by not trying out so many cool aircraft.

NetDaemon
03-09-2007, 07:13 AM
I can http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

In fact, I enjoy it very much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

cawimmer430
03-09-2007, 07:13 AM
I have no problems shooting at German planes or killing German soldiers in Call of Duty etc. And I'm German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's JUST A GAME, relax. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

KraljMatjaz
03-09-2007, 07:14 AM
i have been personally involved in Balkan Wars, and today most of my foreign friends are right from Belgrade (although they were agressors at that time, under the rule of Milosevic). I never found any problem flying MiG-29 missions in LOMAC defending Serbia from Nato in 1999.

you have to know that soldiers on the field are simply fighting because they are ordered to do so and flooded with propaganda that makes them believe that they are the good guys... it's the same every conflich or war. in in reality enemy soldiers are not more mean or anything then your own forces... war is a fight where young guys that don't hate eachother do kill eachother by the order of old ****** who hate but don't kill eachother.

Yeah, it's just a game with one goal in mind: fun.

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 07:17 AM
I feel the same way as the original poster.

Just watch the documentary Berga were they sent the American POWSof the Battle of the Bulge to a quartz mine hard labor camp and worked them to death caked in feces without a bath or change of clothes for 3 months.

By the way, quartz dust rips the lungs apart and one of the interviews was on heavy o2 during his
interview.

This is just a trickle of the atrosities that occured but had an impact on me as much as the Holocast.

I feel the same and will not fly for the Nazis or Japanese if I have the choice.

And when groupps over here in the states associate with nazis to be tough and feared, its a slap in the face to every soldier that died and lived fighting for our country against hitlers plan to enslave the world.

I wont forget like a lot of our degenerate population has.

Capt.LoneRanger
03-09-2007, 07:18 AM
Good thread.
I'm German,too, and I can't shoot down German planes.


But I cannot shoot down US-planes, either.


Infact I can't shoot any planes down, because I'm a lousy gunner.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Viper2005_
03-09-2007, 07:19 AM
I can kill anything that enters my gunsight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

It's just a game you know...

jasonbirder
03-09-2007, 07:19 AM
Its only a game...so take it easy...

My grandfather was in the RAF in Burma and I couldn't wait to try out the new Burma DGEN campaigns...from both sides as i'd heard so much about the fighting around Imphal & Kohima...I wanted to fly the Hurricanes and Beaufighters he flew in...and the Ki27's and Ki43's he flew against!
Did i feel guilty flying as the IJAAF? No way...Its not real life its escapism...

And as for the notion that the War was a morally black and white as everyone fighting for the allies was good and everyone fighting for the axis was bad...well even my commando comics left that idea behind when I was eight years old! It doesn't threaten my patriotism one tiny jot to be able to think that there were good...and bad...brave and cowardly...compassionate and cruel people flying and fighting on both sides of the fence!

mrsiCkstar
03-09-2007, 07:23 AM
I feel that some of the replies to this thread have a somewhat dismissive attitude towards the original posters thoughts... I think that should be kept out of here... while I don't have the same problems I can sympathize and I think it's totally understandable.

jasonbirder
03-09-2007, 07:26 AM
I'm sorry to be dismissive..but the War was 60+ years ago...many of us have friends and relatives that fought in the war...It just seems a little silly to say I can't shoot down Americans when its only pixels on a screen!

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 07:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
I'm sorry to be dismissive..but the War was 60+ years ago...many of us have friends and relatives that fought in the war...It just seems a little silly to say I can't shoot down Americans when its only pixels on a screen! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just shows we are not all of us have the same thought or clones of each other. I was never one to be a lemming and believe me it has caused me problems.
I can ask teach me not to think as I do as those not caring seem to go thru life the easiest. How do I get rid of this silly conscious I have.

PFflyer
03-09-2007, 07:33 AM
Breeze,

You just have to study history a little bit more, and by that I mean history from the perspective of all countries.

History paints countries and whole people as the bad guys, just like right now a lot of other countries are painting the United States as the bad guys in current conflicts.

But if you read first-person accounts written by those alleged bad guys, a lot of them are no different than Americans.

In Germany in WWII, a very large percentage of the population did not and never supported the Nazi party, but the non-Nazi soldiers, like Erich Hartmann still went to war half because they were mislead by propaganda, and half because their families that they loved were being killed in bombing attacks and in every other way. Many Germans prayed every day that the United States would ally with them to fight Russia!

Same thing for Japan. It was the Japanese leaders who screwed up and made bad decisions, but the Japanese culture had honor, duty and chivalry so infused into it, that the Japanese soldier was again, half blinded by propaganda, and just following orders.

By the same token, a lot of facts about the United States involvment in WWII, and other wars has been buried and kept from the american people. Much of what the United States has done in wars in the last 150 years was simply protecting the assets of it's corporations and wealthy, and nothing more.

Russia too, is painted as an ally of what is right on one hand, and as barbarians on the other, and the truth lies somewhere in between, not only for Russia, but for all the poeple of the world.

So when I fly a plane in this sim, no matter what country it is from, it doesn't bother me because I have an open enough mind, and am intelligent enough to realize, that the soldiers who fought in conflicts in our history were just pawns doing a job, often with chivalry and honor, and often unaware to the big picture or to why they were killing and dying at all.

Close-minded and ignorant poeple like yourself, with one take on reality, blindly following their nations leaders, are the main reason why we are still killing and dying.

TC_Stele
03-09-2007, 07:34 AM
I think I fell along those lines at first too. But the first time I entered a free for all server and had an American plane shot me down, I didn't care WHAT he was flying, I wanted to shoot him down pronto!

Friendly_flyer
03-09-2007, 07:36 AM
This is a matter of feelings, not facts. The planes on the screen are just pixels, and shooting them down doesn't hurt anyone. But in order to enjoy the simulation you'll have to put a bit of feeling in it when playing. I personally prefer to fly allied, and I dislike shooting down British planes (the nation I identify most with in the Maddox world), though I have very little qualms about other Allies.

carguy_
03-09-2007, 07:44 AM
I think I understand how you feel.

I myself am a dedicated 109pilot and personally there is no better air kill then a Spitfire or a P51 because I respect those planes alot.
I do not feel the human aspect in FB.I can fly against VVS/RAF/USAAF.

But I unconditionally refuse to fly Me109E/110 vs P11C.I just can`t cuz it feels really ugly for some reason.I flew that online one time and I was a P11C pilot.

I also have hard thoughts about BoB.I feel that as a Pole I am obliged to fly RAF although as an experienced Luftwaffe virtual pilot I can`t leave my virtual mates.I know like 20 people online flying LW since always and for some reason I wouldn`t feel good shooting them down either.


The argument that it is just a game does not help those feelings.


And I object to anyone saying LW=Nazis.There are only few human players on the virtual LW side I met throught 5years.All others are nice chaps having fun.It really hurts inside to be labeled a nazi.

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 07:46 AM
Well I dont play online so I have a choice. I also know the facts with Vietnam and some of our staged wars were the American people were decieved.

Not to forget to mention the Trail of Tears with our Native Americans

From stealing Florida from Spain, our invasion of Japan in 1858 to create a monster dependent on foreing resources, our stealling of territory from Mexico, and possibly our involvement in Iraq (were are the weapons of mass destruction) etc.

I have to agree its a game but I have made my decision based on the time of WW2. And you guys do make good points on it being a game. I may give the Me-262 a whirl as our pilot Stroeble in charge of flying them back (The Last Days of WW2 VCR set) claimed he loved the plane. But I dont feel a campaing for the nazis or Japanese is in my liking.

Oh heck lets give the FW190 and BF109 a whirl

stalkervision
03-09-2007, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I have no problems shooting at German planes or killing German soldiers in Call of Duty etc. And I'm German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's JUST A GAME, relax. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahh.. you would shoot down your own grandma to get one more kill.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

see the guy's sig?

Pauliewalnuts... of "The Sopranos' that's why I said to think of them all as guys who owe you money! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

joeap
03-09-2007, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I have no problems shooting at German planes or killing German soldiers in Call of Duty etc. And I'm German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's JUST A GAME, relax. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 not only in Il-2 no problem sinking Canadian or Greek ships in SH3 either.

I won't condemn those who can't do that however.

slipBall
03-09-2007, 08:11 AM
That's ok....Hollywood kills plenty of us http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

leitmotiv
03-09-2007, 08:11 AM
I am an American. I have to confess to being conscienceless when it comes to airplanes, but, perhaps due to the higher level of immersion (for me, anyway) in SILENT HUNTER 3, I found myself to be distressed by putting torps in Allied merchant ships. Trying to torp Allied warships did not bother me. May be just that I think submarines are ghastly weapons, and I'd cheerfully lob a bomb onto the deck of one. A bit of irony---my father served on two American submarines in WWII, and I cherish his memory so it isn't some repressed hatred thing.

In point of fact, I always feel more comfortable flying Allied of any flavor, except Soviet, because you can't put out of your mind every Allied defeat let another train of innocents get to the gas chambers. I have no qualms flying Finns or Swedes with the Finns. I dislike heartily the USSR and love the peoples of the old USSR.

WWII was a vast pig sticking contest and the veterans I knew just wanted to come home, shag their wives, be fathers, and forget the whole disgusting mess. There was no romance to that war. Sixty years later a lot of bunk is getting promolgated about it. I prefer to remember what the vets told me in the '50's and 60's.

capt_frank
03-09-2007, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GreyBeast:
It's more a matter of NATIONALISM vs. RACISM, isn't it? I'm assuming you're Caucasian.
According to <pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus</pre>
that makes you part Turkish, part Iranian, and part Russian. Now how about that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I am supposedly and reportedly a Caucasian by virtue of governmental statistics, it's sure good to finally know where my roots are. Just curious, do Caucasians have any special form of dress I can adopt so I can proudly wear my heritage?

Thanks again!

Dogfighter1969
03-09-2007, 08:13 AM
I can understand the original poster's feelings. I don't have the same problem. I fly anything and for anyone. However, if there ever was a game that simulated the war that I was involved in myself, I definitely won't fight against my own people. So what does it come down to? In my mind it comes down to the question of how close you were to WWII yourself or how close were your relatives to it. If it was close, there are a lot more emotional aspects involved than for someone, like myself, that wasn't affected by it at all.
Thinking back to my days in a different nation, a different army and a different war, I was trained to be proud of my country, our army and why we were fighting. Like a previous poster said, you were trained (and you believed) that we were the good guys. For that reason, I can relate to the original poster. I won't be able to shoot at our own vehicles and people. One of them could have been me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
But I must admit, that is all history now. I don't know whether that war should have taken place and why it did. At that time our leaders thought it to be necessary, and if we were in their shoes maybe we would have made exactly the same decision. It is always easy in hindsight to say it was unnecessary or wrong. But at the present time it could have been the right decision. Nobody can ever tell how things would have been if it didn't happen.
And finally, some of the guys here might say things that sounds dismissive. I think if you never served in an army and/or been involved in a war it is more difficult to understand what underlying emotions are involved when guys like myself talk about these things. Therefore I will never critise you (maybe younger) guys for being dismissive (I know you don't intend to be).

JG52Karaya-X
03-09-2007, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PFflyer:
Breeze,

You just have to study history a little bit more, and by that I mean history from the perspective of all countries.

History paints countries and whole people as the bad guys, just like right now a lot of other countries are painting the United States as the bad guys in current conflicts.

But if you read first-person accounts written by those alleged bad guys, a lot of them are no different than Americans.

In Germany in WWII, a very large percentage of the population did not and never supported the Nazi party, but the non-Nazi soldiers, like Erich Hartmann still went to war half because they were mislead by propaganda, and half because their families that they loved were being killed in bombing attacks and in every other way. Many Germans prayed every day that the United States would ally with them to fight Russia!

Same thing for Japan. It was the Japanese leaders who screwed up and made bad decisions, but the Japanese culture had honor, duty and chivalry so infused into it, that the Japanese soldier was again, half blinded by propaganda, and just following orders.

By the same token, a lot of facts about the United States involvment in WWII, and other wars has been buried and kept from the american people. Much of what the United States has done in wars in the last 150 years was simply protecting the assets of it's corporations and wealthy, and nothing more.

Russia too, is painted as an ally of what is right on one hand, and as barbarians on the other, and the truth lies somewhere in between, not only for Russia, but for all the poeple of the world.

So when I fly a plane in this sim, no matter what country it is from, it doesn't bother me because I have an open enough mind, and am intelligent enough to realize, that the soldiers who fought in conflicts in our history were just pawns doing a job, often with chivalry and honor, and often unaware to the big picture or to why they were killing and dying at all.

Close-minded and ignorant poeple like yourself, with one take on reality, blindly following their nations leaders, are the main reason why we are still killing and dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very very well said! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Didnt Clostermann invite some German pilot officers to stay with his unit after the armistice and they had a great time talking about their experiences during the war and finding out that actually they had so much in common that when looking back they were seriously started asking themselves why they started shooting at each other in the first place, he said that if you saw the belly lot of them you couldnt possibly have told them apart.

TheBandit_76
03-09-2007, 08:19 AM
Unprovoked German armed forces killed millions of human beings.

Allies destroyed them for doing so.

WW2 lesson over.

Capt.LoneRanger
03-09-2007, 08:20 AM
I wonder about your feelings, if a US pilot flies a German plane or me as a German flying a US plane.

Do you hesitate because of the markings or the pilot?

leitmotiv
03-09-2007, 08:26 AM
On the other hand, I derive a great deal of glee from being the commander or gunner in a German or Soviet tank in a tank sim. Figure that.

BBB_Hyperion
03-09-2007, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Unprovoked German armed forces killed millions of human beings.

Allies destroyed them for doing so.

WW2 lesson over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unprovoked ? You are sure that you own a history book say from 1886 up to 1945 concerning Hungary/Austria/German matters and actually read it ?

Timex62
03-09-2007, 08:35 AM
PFflyer, though I agree with what you said your last sentance was callous and uncalled for. It seems that some of you don't understand that Breezes reluctance comes from personal pain. Think on this: How would you expect a holocost survivor to feel just pretending to fly for the Nazis?

tigertalon
03-09-2007, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PFflyer:
Breeze,

You just have to study history a little bit more, and by that I mean history from the perspective of all countries.

History paints countries and whole people as the bad guys, just like right now a lot of other countries are painting the United States as the bad guys in current conflicts.

But if you read first-person accounts written by those alleged bad guys, a lot of them are no different than Americans.

In Germany in WWII, a very large percentage of the population did not and never supported the Nazi party, but the non-Nazi soldiers, like Erich Hartmann still went to war half because they were mislead by propaganda, and half because their families that they loved were being killed in bombing attacks and in every other way. Many Germans prayed every day that the United States would ally with them to fight Russia!

Same thing for Japan. It was the Japanese leaders who screwed up and made bad decisions, but the Japanese culture had honor, duty and chivalry so infused into it, that the Japanese soldier was again, half blinded by propaganda, and just following orders.

By the same token, a lot of facts about the United States involvment in WWII, and other wars has been buried and kept from the american people. Much of what the United States has done in wars in the last 150 years was simply protecting the assets of it's corporations and wealthy, and nothing more.

Russia too, is painted as an ally of what is right on one hand, and as barbarians on the other, and the truth lies somewhere in between, not only for Russia, but for all the poeple of the world.

So when I fly a plane in this sim, no matter what country it is from, it doesn't bother me because I have an open enough mind, and am intelligent enough to realize, that the soldiers who fought in conflicts in our history were just pawns doing a job, often with chivalry and honor, and often unaware to the big picture or to why they were killing and dying at all.

Close-minded and ignorant poeple like yourself, with one take on reality, blindly following their nations leaders, are the main reason why we are still killing and dying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the best posts on this forum. I'd only like to add, that german jew camps and attrocies were shielded from german and indeed the world community for the duration of second world war. On september the 1st whole world was writing about how polish militia attacked german radio station... it was not earlier than after the war when it was revealed it was a "false flag" operation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Unprovoked German armed forces killed millions of human beings.

Allies destroyed them for doing so.

WW2 lesson over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unprovoked? Firstly, the above mentioned self inflicted wound supplied the german public with an excuse to start the war. As already said, not only german but whole world fell for it. Secondly, the only nation that germany declared war to was USA. Britain and France declared the war on germany on 3rd september 1939 (when germany was still FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from killing millions) and if that's not provocation I don't know what is. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating nazi regime in any way, only trying to open some eyes and to show picture many times is not only black and white.

claypidgon
03-09-2007, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the best posts I have seen on this forum..

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 08:53 AM
Unprovoked

Didnt Germany and the S.S. with the aid of Polsih uniforms supplied by Schindler stage the takeover of a German radio station as a reason to invade Poland.

I can also see why Schindler may have felt guilty and wanted to help the Jewish people in the end.

LStarosta
03-09-2007, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Unprovoked German armed forces killed millions of human beings.

Allies destroyed them for doing so.

WW2 lesson over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because Poles were taking ethnic Germans and mass murdering them in Auschwitz and the Germans felt compelled to do something about it so they invaded.

To this day, Germany rightfully demands reparations from Poland for what they did to them in WWII.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

jasonbirder
03-09-2007, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Unprovoked German armed forces killed millions of human beings.

Allies destroyed them for doing so.

WW2 lesson over </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thats an insightful and balanced analysis of one of a conflict who roots lie in the earliest parts of the 20th century and who's ramifications stay remain with us today...One that encompasses, Genocides, Nuclear Weapons, Atrocities, Area Bombing, Forced relocations of entire peoples etc...

Or alternatively thats the analysis out a kids comic...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

flyingloon
03-09-2007, 09:12 AM
nah kids comics are FAR more intelligently put than that.

general_kalle
03-09-2007, 09:14 AM
ok i have a couple of points

1. its a game so you should'nt relate it to realife. nothing happens after all. no americans die when you shoot down a b17. its just virtual planes and crews.

2. okay you might have relatives but evryone has. on all sides of the war. theres always some soldiers (and officers...and politicians) who dont understand that its not neccecary to make war worse than it has to. like treating prisoners wrong and things.

evry nation in the world have more or less bad part of their history. i read a book abaut an american Counter inteligence officer who's assitant thought you had to torture prisoners. and so he harms a young polish SS soldier because he saw in his Soldbuch (some kind of ID) that he was SS and he thought. oh he's a bad guy and then he does exaktly what he's saying the SS shouldnt do.

also germans(KZ camps) who does wrong things. and french and Russian and Japanese etc.
you cant say that anyone is better than anyone.
war is hell.
some people just have to make it worse than it has to.

okay maybe that was a bit of course but im just trying to say that americans arent better than anyone else.
and nobody is better than the americans.
so either you should say.
heck its only a game.
or you should say. oh americans have been harmed by japanese death marches.
i wont shoot americans.

oh gemans have been harmed by russians in their camps.

only 10 percont or so of the suvivers from 6. army at stalingrad got home to germany.
they were sent to work in Sibiria.
so i wont shoot germans.

british have been bombed under the blitz in london. cut supplyis by submarines.
so i wont shoot british...

and so on.
evry nation have suffered in a war.
thats just the way it is.

i hope you think abaut this.

ps. i please keep this in a freindly discussion.
it would be nice if we could avoid hard feelings.

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 09:14 AM
Snip

"No, because Poles were taking ethnic Germans and mass murdering them in Auschwitz and the Germans felt compelled to do something about it so they invaded."

Oh now this is something I did not know and should not be ignored as I need to researc this. Any references that you could provide me would be much appreciated. Could you provide a name of an incident or something that I can use as a steppiung stone for research.

Also why wer Germans mot allowed to listen to foriegn radio and make their own opinions.

As I say, this is completely new to me.

BrewsterPilot
03-09-2007, 09:18 AM
I can; I'm not American... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
No, seriously, I think it's just a game and no-one will get hurt in reality. Y'know, theres a saying;

"War is delightful to those that haven't experienced it."

I have a huge respect to all soldiers who ever have fought in wars, be they Russian, Finnish, American, German, Iraqi or whatever.

"Soldiers don't start wars, politicians do."

Today, I support the USA, I see myself as an "American who isn't an American". I'm a Finn, but I've lived in the USA for one year and long back there every day; it was the very best year of my life. I'm moving back in July for two more years, and when I turn 18, who knows, I might immigrate forever.
(Man I got OT here!)

T_O_A_D
03-09-2007, 09:23 AM
It's just a game, I join the side with the least players every time. Then I put on the hat, and mentality of the side I'm flying then try to imulate the tactics required to succeed at it.

It makes me a plane *****, and not very good at any one aircraft though, and usually an easy mark for the pro's.

9 times out of 10 though the short side belongs to the axis.

MarkSynthesis
03-09-2007, 09:29 AM
I can understand how some people would have qualms about doing such a thing.

I'm a Taiwanese national, descended from principally indigenous populations. That puts me in a damn awkward position, I expect. Maybe that's why I had a natural familiarity towards the Ki-84 and Ki-100? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Worf101
03-09-2007, 09:31 AM
Funny you should bring this up. I was in a non-99th run Co-Op last night. It was Russian vs. German, a real "mismatch" early Yaks and Migs against some tough nut 109 variants and some 190's. 99th Snake had played this mission before and recommended that we all take 109F's (I think). This was the FIRST time I'd ever flown Blue (German) outside of certain off-line campaigns.

I joked about it, but I was more'n a bit "uncomfortable" flying Blue. But I saddled up, took off and did my duty. I almost shot down a FW 190 out of habit. I apologized. Other than that I never fired a shot and it was the complete whitewash others had said it would be. But truth be told I did feel funny about it and told my squaddies so over comms. Strange that you should bring this subject up today.

I just think that as a "Baby Boomer" we were so indoctinated by movies, TV and family to think of the Axis as "evil" and "the enemy" that we naturally flinch when playing "indian". Very few kids in my neighborhood,signed up to be the Nazi's when playing "war", that's just he facts and old habits die hard.

Da Worfster

PS, hate to say it but thost 109's are some sweet flying killing machines. To quote Cap'n Noob "big guns, big fun".

arjisme
03-09-2007, 09:43 AM
It'd be an interesting exercise to extend that ingrained sympathy for American "pilots" in the sim to the "pilots" of other nationalities, including Japan and Germany. I find when I shoot down an aircraft in this sim, I sometimes think of my virtual victim leaving a virtual wife and kids fatherless, with his virtual parents now grieving. Of course war is ugly. Fortunately, I remind myself this is a game and none of it is personal. We are not simulating agendas or ideologies. We are simulating air combat.

MEGILE
03-09-2007, 09:47 AM
Give me MK108s, and I'll pop anything in the air

ForkTailedDevil
03-09-2007, 09:50 AM
I don't think of it as a Nationalist. I think of this game as me being a aircraft lover. I love WW2 era aircraft. I love the Macchi's, Yak-9's, 109G's, Tempest's, Ki-27's and so one. War is bad we all know that. It doesn't hurt to enjoy the amazing aircraft on our GAME.

R_Target
03-09-2007, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
I think of this game as me being a aircraft lover. I love WW2 era aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

slappedsilly
03-09-2007, 10:08 AM
I'm an American. I fly a Ki-84 with a big meatballs all over it. Does that help any? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

fordfan25
03-09-2007, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>just pretend its the airheads that didnt bring the 46 addon to the the usa market http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Matz0r
03-09-2007, 11:23 AM
Sorry, I cannot relate. I'm curious though, how does the OP feel about americans being "virtually murdered" in movies and television?

mazexx
03-09-2007, 11:43 AM
I'm not saying that the original poster is not entitled to his feelings but this is my take...

My mother and grandmother where inches from beeing killed by a strafing Me 109G during the war and that happens to be my favorite plane in IL2... My grandmother was earlier nearly run over by a Panther tank which happens to be my favorite WWII tank.

For me the war is over, and the german soldiers where generally just as bad as everyone else (with some remarkable exceptions). The german regime was naturally rotten, just as the soviet...

Stanley Milgrams experiments from the 1960:ies in the US kind of proves that it's man that is "evil" and not nations or races.

/Mazex

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 11:44 AM
Can we reskin the American and othe Allied planes to have a Microsoft Logo on them.

I have to agree with a previous post there is more than meets the eye on the developments leading up to the war. More than what we have been told by our countries and governments. Atlthough hitlers final soultion was ghastly and hidious, there was a mess of unfairness to all sides before during and after the war propagated by our own (all) governments and propaganda and a powerfull persons own interests.

There were many catalysts in place to allow hitler to come to power and decieve his own people and take liberties to serve his own interests.

The unfairness of this world creates havenots and hardships and people like hitler arise and take advantage of the populations under duress.

I say PLAY ON!!!!!!! Just reskin the planes then.

So who wants to work on a reskinning project for both sides to be fair.

nealn
03-09-2007, 12:03 PM
Breeze,

I get what you are saying. Being Jewish, I at first had a real hard time ever flying a 109 for the Germans. I now fly it on occaision, ( in particular since Flatspinman made such a great 109 campaign). You have to look at the big picture though. I am sure some Luftwaffe pilots were dyed in the wool nazis who should have been strung up, and some were just good soldiers and good people doing the best they could for their country at war, and hoping it would all end soon.

Just another lesson to judge people as idividuals and not to be prejudiced against a whole group in general.

Neal

DuxCorvan
03-09-2007, 12:34 PM
Some of you guys worry me. I don't have problems shooting at any f***g virtual 3D model at all.

stalkervision
03-09-2007, 12:43 PM
In real life fighter pilots always shot at the plane. Many didn't even realise that a man could get killed in the process until something happen and they became aware of this fact..

Saying all that one has to realise this is just a sim and one is allowed to express one's basic human instinct for destruction.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif One only has to see little boys loading up a "frog grenade" to see this. Girls on the other hand learn the finer art of Psychological torture.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

nealn
03-09-2007, 01:03 PM
"Some of you guys worry me. I don't have problems shooting at any f***g virtual 3D model at all."

Well, actually some of you worry me. Though this is just a game, it is not a fantasy game such as Lord of the rings or Star wars. It is based on a very real and very tragic event in mankinds history that maimed, killed or forever psyhcologicaly changed millions.

To contiually play it and ignore its real life basis is I feel somewhat souless and superficial. Though I enjoy WW2 aviation and love this sim, it is to me impossible to play it without occaisionaly thinking back to its real life source and all of those affected. In short I do sympathise with the original poster. and though it is just a ame, it isbase on something very real.

Neal

ultraHun
03-09-2007, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Breeze,

I do understand that. I believe someone plays videogames not only for finger/brain artistry, but as much for excitement, which for sure means involvement, too. From someones personal perspective it is not just running an algorithm on a 3D computer graphic, but as well about imaging yourself being there and doing that. At age of 40, I am always astound (ashamed) of myself for committing to such childisch and insane pleasures ...

Thus, not virtually enlisting for yours country's enemy of war is just sound patriotism, as is the empathy for you virtual countrymen.

It has nothing do with racism. Someone should just be able to let the game be a game in the moment he or she exits il2 (and be fully back in real-life of today).

Some personal notes if you do not mind:

I usually obstain from playing my own nationality, German, because the 3rd Reich is one of the most shameful episodes in history, especially with respect to the war in Russia. In addition - but independent from that - I hate German militarism and any kind of "Wehrmachtsromantik".

On the other side I can play 8th AF and shoot at German planes, it is easy to imagine being a German who migrated to the US (or a son of him) and found himself back over Germany. Well, Rickenbacker sound quite german and Yeager at least is spoken like Jaeger.

For some reasons - not to be told here, to prevent the thread to digress to another topic - I do not like flying British over Germany. However, I love the Spit cockpit very much, I like flying British vs. Japanese.

Then again, I fly Luftwaffe in North Africa campaigns or in "Wunderwaffen" scenarios. The idea to conquer Africa or to ride on the top of a T/C-Stoff fuel tank (Me-163) is again so off and mad, that it is cool just for its weirdness, I mean I do not take these scenarios so seriously.

Hopefully you can make some sense out of what I spontaneously wrote down,

Regards and Greetings.

boxmike
03-09-2007, 01:23 PM
Just pick that option of Yours in this game should do it. No need to shoot pixeled people You do like.

Rgds,
- box

mazexx
03-09-2007, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mazexx:
I'm not saying that the original poster is not entitled to his feelings but this is my take...

My mother and grandmother where inches from beeing killed by a strafing Me 109G during the war and that happens to be my favorite plane in IL2... My grandmother was earlier nearly run over by a Panther tank which happens to be my favorite WWII tank.

For me the war is over, and the german soldiers where generally just as bad as everyone else (with some remarkable exceptions). The german regime was naturally rotten, just as the soviet...

Stanley Milgrams experiments from the 1960:ies in the US kind of proves that it's man that is "evil" and not nations or races.

/Mazex </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...i take it you were not to fond of your Mother or Grandmother? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He, he - that's logical deduction. Nope, I like them a lot, I guess it has something to do with the good ole' human interest in "the dark side" to make a cheesy star wars comparison. I liked the X-Wings better in X-Wing vs. Tie-fighter too... Had as much problem shooting them sissy A-wings as I have shooting down Spitfires.

Having said that, I actually DO feel better somehow shooting down an Me 109 than shooting down a P-47. At the same time I find the Me 109 a much more interesting aircraft than the P-47. Why? I guess there is a lot of myth surrounding "evil" machines of war. I somehow feel drawn to the Su-27 even though that is a plane that I could have faced the wrong end of if WWIII had happended.

/Mazex

cawimmer430
03-09-2007, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I have no problems shooting at German planes or killing German soldiers in Call of Duty etc. And I'm German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's JUST A GAME, relax. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahh.. you would shoot down your own grandma to get one more kill.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

see the guy's sig?

Pauliewalnuts... of "The Sopranos' that's why I said to think of them all as guys who owe you money! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny thing is, my grandma worked for the Luftwaffe during the war. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ViktorViktor
03-09-2007, 02:59 PM
Breeze, which side do you play in a Civil War game ?

Personally, I have no problems shooting down planes of any nationality. And it all seems so far removed from reality - I'm shooting down planes, not pilots. I don't even see the enemy pilot, most of the time.

I have reservations about playing these WWII shooters, though. It gets personal when I can see that I'm blowing away a human figure. It makes me uneasy. I think that I could eventually learn to like them (once I become indifferent to the killing), but I don't think this would be an improvement for my psyche, so I just leave them alone.

If you read history, you find that England and Germany (actually Holy Roman Empire) made war together against France, that US fought England in a war, that France aided US in this war. Japan and Italy (I think) were 'allies' in WWI. Today Japan and Germany are stalwart allies of US and Great Britain. The point is - today's ally could just as well be tomorrow's enemy, so why get hung up over nationalities in a game.

Don't forget - we're playing a Russian flight sim. There's probably folks out there who disapprove of IL2 cuz it's a Russian product. It don't bother me, does it bother you ?

JSG72
03-09-2007, 03:18 PM
I am afraid to say that I have no problem at all attacking with a need to shoot down allied planes. In fact i fly 99.9% blue.(And it's purely because I grew up to love these weapons)

My upbringing was in the '60s when any of the films I watched or Comic "Commando books were always taking an Allied slant on things.

Any WW2 fighting senarios. Always depicted the Axis in an unrealistic slant with usually Modern day aircraft/Tanks madeup to look like The Enemy.
When I got to my teens ('70s)I read books about the war and was most fascinated to find that the Germans/Japanese didn't fly Havards/108s or crewed Walker Bulldogs made up to be panzers.And indeed had some very good weapons of their own design.Which were basically steamrollered into submission.(As opposed to our own apparently excellent Allied fighting qualities depicted in my pre-teen education?).

This made a more lifelike wartime scenario to me and am quite satisfied now to accept that.

It was during thes readings. which became progresively more intense. I realised that I was being Lied to all my life. And I despise liars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Global Wars of course effect all to some extent. and more so those who have lost a loved one.
I genuinely feel hurt for all in such a situation. No question of nationality.

However I sometimes feel that people who claim they cannot shoot down an aircraft of there own nation within a simulation maybe susceptible to the Lies of their Leaders. (All nations included.)
This is Not a dig at anyone. Just an honest post of my thoughts and perhaps a thought for others to ponder?

stalkervision
03-09-2007, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
I have no problems shooting at German planes or killing German soldiers in Call of Duty etc. And I'm German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's JUST A GAME, relax. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahh.. you would shoot down your own grandma to get one more kill.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

see the guy's sig?

Pauliewalnuts... of "The Sopranos' that's why I said to think of them all as guys who owe you money! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny thing is, my grandma worked for the Luftwaffe during the war. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well then she was fair game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Got any bad neighbors you want to hose? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Phil_K
03-09-2007, 03:43 PM
It's a funny thing, but as an Englishman who has a high regard for Germans and German culture (I love German music such as Einsturzende Neubauten, DAF, Can, Fehlfarben, Malaria!, Faust, Die Krupps etc.) and admire greatly their contribution to civilisation, I just cannot fly their frigging planes.

I can drive their cars, admire their artistic and technological achievements (which are enormous), laugh at their wry sense of humour, but put me in a horrible ugly Bf109 of FW190 and I feel the urgent need for a cold shower.

I strongly suspect the reason is aesthetic. There isn't much about Nazism that wasn't ugly and I think their weapons reflect that, despite the merits of their performance.

MB_Avro_UK
03-09-2007, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Phil_K:
It's a funny thing, but as an Englishman who has a high regard for Germans and German culture (I love German music such as Einsturzende Neubauten, DAF, Can, Fehlfarben, Malaria!, Faust, Die Krupps etc.) and admire greatly their contribution to civilisation, I just cannot fly their frigging plane

I can drive their cars, admire their artistic and technological achievements (which are enormous), laugh at their wry sense of humour, but put me in a horrible ugly Bf109 of FW190 and I feel the urgent need for a cold shower.

I strongly suspect the reason is aesthetic. There isn't much about Nazism that wasn't ugly and I think their weapons reflect that, despite the merits of their performance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Phil_K,

Hmmm...as a fellow Engishman I find this interesting. The parallel design of the Me 109 and the Spifire in the 1930's produced such a divergence of aesthetic design...

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

ploughman
03-09-2007, 04:41 PM
There is an essential design element culturally that is readily recognisable in most cases. The DB5/9/Vantage are all recognisably British. Most marks of BMW are recognisably German. Look at the lines of the latest Audi TT, one of the least 'teutonic' of the German manufacturers and you still know you're looking at a German machine. There's a 'mammalian' or warm blooded aspect to British design that's absent in German creations which have a much more savage and efficient look to them. The Spitfire might be a mammalian predator but the 109 is simply charcharian in its appearance. It's ugly but in the same way a Mako's ugly.

Breeze147
03-09-2007, 08:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Breeze, which side do you play in a Civil War game ?

Personally, I have no problems shooting down planes of any nationality. And it all seems so far removed from reality - I'm shooting down planes, not pilots. I don't even see the enemy pilot, most of the time.

I have reservations about playing these WWII shooters, though. It gets personal when I can see that I'm blowing away a human figure. It makes me uneasy. I think that I could eventually learn to like them (once I become indifferent to the killing), but I don't think this would be an improvement for my psyche, so I just leave them alone.

If you read history, you find that England and Germany (actually Holy Roman Empire) made war together against France, that US fought England in a war, that France aided US in this war. Japan and Italy (I think) were 'allies' in WWI. Today Japan and Germany are stalwart allies of US and Great Britain. The point is - today's ally could just as well be tomorrow's enemy, so why get hung up over nationalities in a game.

Don't forget - we're playing a Russian flight sim. There's probably folks out there who disapprove of IL2 cuz it's a Russian product. It don't bother me, does it bother you ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow!! This is so far THE definitive answer!

Chris0382
03-09-2007, 08:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't forget - we're playing a Russian flight sim. There's probably folks out there who disapprove of IL2 cuz it's a Russian product. It don't bother me, does it bother you ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I like my German made MEDUSA headphones.

Breeze147
03-09-2007, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSG72:
I am afraid to say that I have no problem at all attacking with a need to shoot down allied planes. In fact i fly 99.9% blue.(And it's purely because I grew up to love these weapons)

My upbringing was in the '60s when any of the films I watched or Comic "Commando books were always taking an Allied slant on things.

Any WW2 fighting senarios. Always depicted the Axis in an unrealistic slant with usually Modern day aircraft/Tanks madeup to look like The Enemy.
When I got to my teens ('70s)I read books about the war and was most fascinated to find that the Germans/Japanese didn't fly Havards/108s or crewed Walker Bulldogs made up to be panzers.And indeed had some very good weapons of their own design.Which were basically steamrollered into submission.(As opposed to our own apparently excellent Allied fighting qualities depicted in my pre-teen education?).

This made a more lifelike wartime scenario to me and am quite satisfied now to accept that.

It was during thes readings. which became progresively more intense. I realised that I was being Lied to all my life. And I despise liars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Global Wars of course effect all to some extent. and more so those who have lost a loved one.
I genuinely feel hurt for all in such a situation. No question of nationality.

However I sometimes feel that people who claim they cannot shoot down an aircraft of there own nation within a simulation maybe susceptible to the Lies of their Leaders. (All nations included.)
This is Not a dig at anyone. Just an honest post of my thoughts and perhaps a thought for others to ponder? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You scare me.

Breeze147
03-09-2007, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Phil_K:
It's a funny thing, but as an Englishman who has a high regard for Germans and German culture (I love German music such as Einsturzende Neubauten, DAF, Can, Fehlfarben, Malaria!, Faust, Die Krupps etc.) and admire greatly their contribution to civilisation, I just cannot fly their frigging planes.

I can drive their cars, admire their artistic and technological achievements (which are enormous), laugh at their wry sense of humour, but put me in a horrible ugly Bf109 of FW190 and I feel the urgent need for a cold shower.

I strongly suspect the reason is aesthetic. There isn't much about Nazism that wasn't ugly and I think their weapons reflect that, despite the merits of their performance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here! Here!

heywooood
03-09-2007, 11:06 PM
its just a game - you guys are freakin' me out here a little bit seriously...cut it out.



its just a game where you can fly and dogfight in the virtual sky - for fun weeeeeee like booobies

HotelBushranger
03-10-2007, 04:01 AM
I can fly for absolutely any country, because all countries pilots fought and died for their country. Saying I refuse to fly for (for eg) Germany because of the Nazi's is as bad as spitting on the graves of the pilots.

And don't take this as a dig at the original poster, this is just my opinion.

Phil_K
03-10-2007, 06:06 AM
I suppose I should have qualified my op by stating that it's just a personal quirk of mine.

There's just something about the Luftwaffe aesthetic that doesn't appeal to me. I think the planes are a bit ugly and knobbly looking. It seems an aesthetic prevalent throughout the Nazi era. Some people may like this aesthetic and good for them - I'm not judging the tastes of others.

Obviously there's something politically unpleasant about Nazism, but that is another matter that I'm not referring to here.

DKoor
03-10-2007, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
The Spitfire might be a mammalian predator but the 109 is simply charcharian in its appearance. It's ugly but in the same way a Mako's ugly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I protest. Strongly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
109 is anything but ugly.
But beauty is another subjective domain, and there is no definite answer, my opinion is that none of the most famous WW2 aircraft is ugly they are all beautiful.

What puzzled me tho, are the camos. Camouflage schemes used by Germans and those used by the allies.
No airforce has so dark and sharp camos like Luftwaffe, so in that regard they really look like "dark force".

And also to refer to the original topic, I don't have any problems shooting someone down regardless of side. I took my plane and do my job.
I suppose I look at this differently.

cpirrmann
03-10-2007, 07:09 AM
This could be an age thing. When I was younger, I could separate the Nazi regime from the equipment and men I admired, but I can't anymore. The same with the Japanese. I can read about them and still feel the respect and admiration, but to actually take part, no. This, in my case, comes from the aquisition of more experience, more knowledge, and knowing more people.

Many of us enjoy this sim because of it immersion ability, which does draw you in emotionally, especially if you fly campaigns and notice the progress of your fellows, the countryside you fly over, the tension as you nurse a crippled plane back to your lines, etc. This immersion can also bring out the emotions you have in real life regarding regimes and wars of the past present and future.

Also, for those of us who served in our respective militaries or know someone who did, it can also be emotionally difficult to fire on your own countrymen. It breeds a commeraderis that is difficult to explain to someone who hasn't. Not a slam against those who haven't, it's just a fact.

The original poster and I may have something in common. I have the ability to fire on my own countrymen, but it would severely lessen my enjoyment of this sim and why would I want to do that? For some, it's just a game, for others it's an experience, and experiences affect different people differently and I can understand that. One work around, I have found is to use different scenarios. For example, I can make an Israeli campaign for 1949-1950 when the IAF flew ME109's, P-51's, Spitfires. Also, one could create a campaign where one flies a mercenary squadron with whatever planes he wanted. Also, a captured aircraft squadron simialr to KG200 I think it was. As the Captain in Flyboys said, do only what your conscience and courage allows.

cpirrmann
03-10-2007, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Breeze,

I do understand that. I believe someone plays videogames not only for finger/brain artistry, but as much for excitement, which for sure means involvement, too. From someones personal perspective it is not just running an algorithm on a 3D computer graphic, but as well about imaging yourself being there and doing that. At age of 40, I am always astound (ashamed) of myself for committing to such childisch and insane pleasures ...

Thus, not virtually enlisting for yours country's enemy of war is just sound patriotism, as is the empathy for you virtual countrymen.

It has nothing do with racism. Someone should just be able to let the game be a game in the moment he or she exits il2 (and be fully back in real-life of today).

Some personal notes if you do not mind:

I usually obstain from playing my own nationality, German, because the 3rd Reich is one of the most shameful episodes in history, especially with respect to the war in Russia. In addition - but independent from that - I hate German militarism and any kind of "Wehrmachtsromantik".

On the other side I can play 8th AF and shoot at German planes, it is easy to imagine being a German who migrated to the US (or a son of him) and found himself back over Germany. Well, Rickenbacker sound quite german and Yeager at least is spoken like Jaeger.

For some reasons - not to be told here, to prevent the thread to digress to another topic - I do not like flying British over Germany. However, I love the Spit cockpit very much, I like flying British vs. Japanese.

Then again, I fly Luftwaffe in North Africa campaigns or in "Wunderwaffen" scenarios. The idea to conquer Africa or to ride on the top of a T/C-Stoff fuel tank (Me-163) is again so off and mad, that it is cool just for its weirdness, I mean I do not take these scenarios so seriously.

Hopefully you can make some sense out of what I spontaneously wrote down,

Regards and Greetings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This reminds me of a story I read about Hub Zemke. He was receiving the squadron airbase from a British commander and he introduced himself, his XO and Ops officers; Schilling and Altschuler. The British officer exclaimed,"I feel like I'm handing over the airbase to the bloody Jerries". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There were many first generation Americans who fought for the U.S. as well as went to their native countries to fight for them. You never know...

Von_Ron
03-10-2007, 07:47 AM
Greetings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Somewhat O.T.- I can't shoot Americans" ...but you don't mind shooting any other nationality for no apparent reasons, get a life !????

I agree with what PFflyer wrote!

DarkWingDuck...
03-10-2007, 08:08 AM
Interesting, so what if the other bloke is in REALITY an American (and you know it), but is flying a German plane in this GAME? ?

p.s., question is to Breeze

Copperhead310th
03-10-2007, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I hope I don't get into trouble with this, but it has been on my mind for quite a while.

I just can't fly for the Japanese at all and I can't fly for the Germans against Americans. It has nothing to do with racism, but I am old enough to have personally known people who fought in WWII. A distant relative was on the Bataan Death March. I can still remember seeing relatives in tears when watching film of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I just cannot even pretend to be in the Imperial Japanese military.

As for the Germans, I had another relative who received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart at Anzio, but, I can fly against the VVS or the British, but I cannot shoot at an American. I will not participate as a German in any BOB scenarios, either.

Just something that's been on my mind and hopefully it will spark INTELLIGENT discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can Totally agree and understand this. i felt the same way for a very long time. and in a way i still do. Then how come i finnaly wound up in a JG? I guess cause i realized that it is after all only a Simulation with ppl playing at being real fighter pilots, and that (at least in the case of JG27) most of these guys ARE AMERICAINS. they just like the german planes.

Now thst goes for JG27, whom i've known and foght against & with for years. there was already a good relation ship there. these guys i know. And my squad everyone is a stand up guy. Some are active duty US military, or retired military. and you don't get any more red, white & blue than that.

But there are others, here on these very forums, and i'm sure most of us here know who they are, could be very well voted mostliky to have a picture of ol Adolph hung proudly on thier living room wall and like to goose step every where they go. I'm not naming names but if you been around here a year or more then ya already can formulate the list of posters in your mind that fall in to the catagory of "Wanbe Nazi". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I was the CO of an Americain USAAF Squadron for 4 or 5 years here. To this day i find it hard to squeeze the 108's off at a P-47.
But i will shoot one down if he get's in my gunsight. Because after all, in this crazy nmixed up virtual world, the guy behind the the stick of that JUG just might be a closet Nazi. and i hate Nazis.

ROLF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

:|LEAGAL DISCLAIMER. I AHVE NOT READ THE ENTIRE THREAD. I HAVE JUST RESPONDED TO THE AUTHOURS POST ONLY. THANK YOU PLEASE DRIVE THRU!EEND LEAGAL DISCLAIMER.|: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

MEGILE
03-10-2007, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
i hate Nazis.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's funny, because we hate you too! http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8048/gmhitleryy1.gif

Brain32
03-10-2007, 08:40 AM
I only have troubles shooting at people/squads I know, however I usually get over it in a matter of nanoseconds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Breeze147
03-10-2007, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkWingDuck...:
Interesting, so what if the other bloke is in REALITY an American (and you know it), but is flying a German plane in this GAME? ?

p.s., question is to Breeze </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then he's a traitor and gets splashed even quicker. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

heywooood
03-10-2007, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
i hate Nazis.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's funny, because we hate you too! http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8048/gmhitleryy1.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

now that IS funny...if you know that nazism is a state of mind and not just some guys that used to wear certain insignia on their uniforms and march funny on grainy b/w filmstrips...hating for the sake of hate.

ViktorViktor
03-10-2007, 10:50 AM
You mean there are Chinese Nazis ?

heywooood
03-10-2007, 11:26 AM
chinazis? nazeese?

StG2_Schlachter
03-10-2007, 11:38 AM
The servers I frequent are usually full of blue players and not enough Reds. So I join RED and get to kill a lot of VIRTUAL Germans.

IL-2 can be pretty immersive, but it is just a game.

waffen-79
03-10-2007, 12:01 PM
Heck I don't shoot german planes even on WW Arcadey servers!!!! LOL w00t !!!!!11111oneone!!1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Xiolablu3
03-10-2007, 02:04 PM
AH come on guys, lets forget these bad feelings, fly all sides.

We need to forgive the past, but never forget.

He who does not learn from history is condemned to repeat it.

We should learn to forget countries/nationalism and race etc and remember we are all the same inside.

Cant wait for the future when everyone is the same colour, all races will have merged into one light brown colour. Then there will be no racism!

All this 'I wont fly for this side' only creates more division, and division is a bad thing. If there is no division then there are no sides. If there are no sides then there are no wars.

joeap
03-10-2007, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Cant wait for the future when everyone is the same colour, all races will have merged into one light brown colour. Then there will be no racism!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh man you gave me a flash of a sci-fi film I saw as a teenager. Called the "Lathe of Heaven" abut a survivor named George of a nuclear war who got the ability to change reality by dreaming an alternate past. He ends up in therapy and is used by a researcher named Haber:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">* When Haber directs George to dream a world without racism, the skin of everyone on the planet becomes a uniform light gray.
(my bold)

* An attempt to solve the problem of overpopulation proves disastrous when George dreams a devastating plague which wipes out 75% of humanity.

* George attempts to dream into existence "peace on Earth" - resulting in an alien invasion of the Moon which unites all the nations of Earth against the threat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Lathe of Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven)

Waaaaay O.T. sorry. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

Breeze147
03-10-2007, 08:50 PM
"This Perfect Day"

SithSpeeder
03-10-2007, 11:29 PM
Breeze, I'm with ya' bro. As a matter of fact, my very first "blog" entry on simace.com was about this very topic: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2005-Oct-10

My First Blog

I don't have time to maintain this site, but that's OK--I'll update it when I can.

Topic du jour is the "difficulty I have in shooting down American planes while sitting in a German or Japanese plane in WW2 combat flight simulators." Like in IL2:Forgotten Battles/AEP/FB. I can do it if I really have to, but it just doesn't feel right. I idolized those planes and pilots since I was a very young kid. I can't explain why my interest in the timeframe of WW2 is so high--it just is.

I'm not saying that others shouldn't do it--it is a game. It just doesn't feel right to ME. I liken it to walking up to the person you most admire and punching them in the nose (even if it's only virtually).

Some server administrators get upset when the teams get unbalanced on their servers. But even if it's ridiculously unbalanced, I'll almost always join the side that has American or even British planes.

Another reason I have difficulty with it has to do with what was being fought for in WW2. Sure, there were horrible atrocities committed on all sides, but propoganda aside, the Axis leaders believed in racial superiority. They feel like they didn't commit crimes against humanity because the enemy was sub-human. I can't recall who said the quote (and I paraphrase) "A society is only as good as the way it treats its prisoners." The ruthlessness of the Japanese military against their POWs, the extermination of the Jews by the German Nazis, even the sheer brutality against their own people by mandated by the Russian leader Stalin. When reading books (actually, listening to audio books) about this timeframe, it's very powerful, emotional, and even personal to me.

Not that the US of A has a clean record--I know very well that it does not. I get the same feelings when reading about the Indian massacres, mis-treatment of the slaves, the brutality against the Filipinos, and on and on. But I digress, as this has to do with WW2 flight sims.

People want respect. Period. Once you freely give it and freely receive it just for being part of the human race, you've reached what I consider to be utopia.

* SithSpeeder, aka _54th_Speeder </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I have felt this way since starting in my CFS2 days.

However, lately I have been training with a member from another squad (MOH). Because I enjoy his company and learning with/from him, I frequently defer to his preferences. Sometimes, he flies the 109s or 190s and we wing up. Initially, it felt really ...uncomfortable. But two things occurred:
1. The guys who fly blue sound just like the guys who fly red--I don't know what the heck I was expecting but stepping into that role became a bit easier then. You care about helping and saving your teammates all of a sudden and basically cheering when they get a kill on that Spit or P-51.
2. The blue planes...well, they rock. It was like opening up a whole new unexpectedly wonderful aspect of the sim that I had been somewhat artificially holding myself from.

Now, I will never put a German swastika on the side of my German plane because of what that symbol meant at that time. But I will put a Finnish swastika on.

Something similar happened in Star Wars Battlefront 2. In the beginning of the campaign, you're a clone trooper working with the jedi waxing soulless droids (this was FUN!). But then, Order 66 is given and you find yourself on Coruscant trying to kill human jedi (young ones at that)--it felt so...wrong. Then, you finish by going after the "rebels", who are humans (or even Wookies) as well. It feels "not-so-good" waxing their virtual existence. (but there was a certain coolness of being Darth Vader).

Wow...verbose post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif . Oh well.

YMMV. I am glad you started this thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

* _54th_Speeder *

Bewolf
03-11-2007, 04:24 AM
Interesting thread here. And also interesting attitudes so far. I personally have no problem flying planes for whatever side. Though my fathers nurse was kiled bay strafing american fighters and my father only survived because she pushed the cart away, I still just love the P38 and fly it everytime it becomes available on servers. If it is not, the FW190 is my fav ride. So it is a more a matter of plane preference then anything else, really. I also look at the atmophere of certain sides and try to dvelve in it.

For example, playing japanese always has a kinda steam punkish feeling to it...can't better describe it. Germans are the dark side, kinda like flying for the Empire in Star Wars games. It has a certain coolness factor, even though I am sure ppl will jump up now and point to the millions of ppl beeing killed, and rightfully so. Then again german fighters were never known for a lot of civilian strafing, something german fighter pilots saws beyond them. The brits have this laissez faireattitude to them. Even in the mids of a flight I can't but picture them with a cup of tea in their hands. The americans on the other hand have this bright cowboyesque yippiekayay atmosphere to them. Fun there =)

So, I think you have to take a grander look at things and make it enjoyable for yourself.

rcocean
03-11-2007, 12:39 PM
First, this IS a game. So, I doesn't bother me to shoot down anybody's planes. After all, they are trying to kill me (in videogame sort of way)

Having said that, it always more fun for me to play certain sides, and that includes wargames. To whit:

1776 - US side over the British

Civil War - South over the North. Even though I'm a Yankee, the south is just more interesting.

WWI/Red baron - No preference. It always
contingent on who has the "cooler" planes, except its always more fun to fly with the Red Baron and his "flying circus".

WW II - Always more fun to fly American over Japanese/German. German over Russian/French. In BoB, the British over the Luftwaffe. Otherwise, no preference in British vs. Luftwaffe/Italians.

However, for some reason I always enjoy flying the zero in the first year of the war, especially against the UK/commonwealth.

If we had a game based on night fighting I would always prefer to shooting down Lancaters or German bombers rather than flying them.

Korea - I was enjoy flying UN rather than the communist side.

Xiolablu3
03-11-2007, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
Germans are the dark side, kinda like flying for the Empire in Star Wars games. It has a certain coolness factor </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You definitely got that right, also I wouldnt worry about what people say about Germans civilian strafing, all sides did it. Same with parachute shooting.

I am English, and In fact the only film I saw of civilian strafing was an Allied fighter strafing a horse and cart - it certainly didnt look like it was military. Funnily enough I didnt feel anything for the human, but felt really sorry for the horse...Go figure...

Anyone still harbouring bad feelings from WW2 is only making things worse for the future. We should be making sure it doesnt happen again by healing those old wounds, not keeping them open. I am sure all the old WW2 veterans would agree, and the best honour we can give them is to honour their wishes - to try and make sure that such things should never happen again.

Bewolf
03-11-2007, 03:19 PM
+1

J_Anonymous
03-11-2007, 04:38 PM
I also felt somewhat awkward shooting Japanese planes in the beginning, but got used to it. This is just a game. I love to fly US planes and see fireballs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I wonder if the original poster has friends from axis countries, though. Asides from the superficial difference of skin, language, customs, etc., human beings are all same.

EctoGamma
03-11-2007, 06:52 PM
The Tans
The Auxes
Penal laws
Mass beating and killings
Exporting the corn while the Nation was dying in the ditchs durning the famine.

Just a few of the atrocities that the Irish sufferd under British rule, and not all of these wounds have fully healed, even to this day.

Yet when flying my Tempest in IL2, I'll do what ever it takes to make sure the hun never invade England! Why? cause its a game yes, but also cause 200,000 of my Irish kins men fought on both sides of the war, and that goes for all nations. Like it or not men and women from the USA and England fought for the Germans and The Japanees.

Philipscdrw
03-11-2007, 07:00 PM
I see Il-2 as a computer game, I'm happy to fly for any side; generally, my preferences come from how well I can connect with the individual aircraft, rather than nationality.

But I'm very uneasy about linking this WW2-shaped GAME to real-life military service - I can't help but feel that, if I'd risked my life for my country, I'd be offended by the idea that playing a computer game has any close bearing on actual military service!

I mean, it's a bit silly to say that an American wearing a Bf109 and shooting down a P-47 in Il-2 (for example) is somehow analogous to an American really shooting down another American in the real world, I think.

Chris0382
03-11-2007, 07:25 PM
wELL IN bf1942 Im ok with fighting on the Germans side. But in IL-2 Im not and that must be the best compliment this game can have because it shows the reality of the IL-2 game compared to BF-1942.

BF1942 is like a cartoon to this game.

So to break the ice I flew a Me-262 against 2 P-51 and what a pleasure it was to fly that jet. The P-51's never got a shot.

Philipscdrw
03-11-2007, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris0382:
wELL IN bf1942 Im ok with fighting on the Germans side. But in IL-2 Im not and that must be the best compliment this game can have because it shows the reality of the IL-2 game compared to BF-1942.

BF1942 is like a cartoon to this game.

So to break the ice I flew a Me-262 against 2 P-51 and what a pleasure it was to fly that jet. The P-51's never got a shot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Il-2 is much better than BF42, but Il-2 is much closer to BF42 than it is to real life.

Take off, go and fight the 'enemy', get killed, respawn, repeat. Then turn off the PC and have some dinner. Quite different from spending months in a part of the world where quite a lot of people are working very hard to make you dead, I think...

sukebeboy
03-11-2007, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
chinazis? nazeese? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure. In Korea and Japan too. There's quite a thriving little Nazi fetish underground. This bar has since closed, but I used to just stare in bafflement every time I saw it when I lived in Ulsan, Korea back in the mid 90s.

http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/hitler_disco.jpg

Inside.
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/_time_asia_magazine_2000_0605_southkorea.theydress edwell.jpg


Here's another Hitler Bar in Pusan.

http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/hitlah.jpg
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/IMAG0015.jpg

Hitler in a children's board game. (Do not pass Go, go directly to Hitler?)

http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/hitler_bingo.jpg


And of course we have Japan, where they've taken to Nazi chic which is some sort of bizarre cutesy/dystopian anime/cosplay freakshow (complete with porn, which I can't post here)

http://static.flickr.com/20/72820126_f37782b99e.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/49/127190240_46b9d8888d_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/79/230121905_39f61dcd8e.jpg
http://www1.neweb.ne.jp/wb/soutou/fakes/cg-nazi.jpg
http://taz.de/blogs/wp-inst/wp-content/blogs.dir/10/files/2006/06/nazi%20anime.jpg

When I ask my Japanese friends about this, there's a sense of unreality to it all. They don't really feel any sort of connection to the history of the Nazis in Europe or what they did. To most young Japanese, what happened occured in some "other space" which is so far seperated by time and history that it doesn't seem real to them.

When I asked a Korean friend about her fascination with Nazis, her response was "they dress well."

Zoring
03-11-2007, 10:21 PM
Well my Grandfather flew for the Luftwaffe as a Stuka pilot, however i have no problem with flying as any country.

As a footnote to that, both he and my grandmother had to go through 'De-Nazification' even though neither were Nazi party members, they had to pay an American offical about 80 Marks (i'm not to sure on the exact number) they got given a little de-nazified pass and then that was it, they were 'de-nazified'.

If you can't play as a certain side or the other i don't think your mature enough to realise that both sides of the war were made up of regular human beings, the vast majority of which commited no atrocities or were any more responsible for their governments actions then you American people are for what your President does today.

You can't assosciate all a nations people with their leaders, we don't call Americans 'Repbulicites' and i know i personally don't hold the people responsible for a leader they cannot control the actions of.

sukebeboy
03-12-2007, 10:15 PM
I hold people responsible in a democracy. It's your duty to stay informed, participate and make sure your representative understands your views, even if you didn't vote for the party he or she represents.

DarkWingDuck...
03-13-2007, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sukebeboy:
I hold people responsible in a democracy. It's your duty to stay informed, participate and make sure your representative understands your views, even if you didn't vote for the party he or she represents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If someone wins with just over half the votes,
what about the other half?, do you hold them responsible for the actions of someone they tried to oust?

I agree with the previous poster to yours.
please remember its a GAME, if you find yourself living it, get out more

Breeze147
03-13-2007, 07:08 AM
I should have stated way back on Page 1 that I am referring to OFFLINE missions. I don't care at all about online, as I very rarely go there, for my own reasons, not to be stated in this thread.

I am truly baffled at the number of people who have referred to me as ignorant and/or immature because I don't want to fly against Americans. Some even brought Iraq into it!

I can see now that for a lot of people, this is merely an arcade online game, no different from WOW, with WWII planes instead of flying Gorkies to shoot at. For me, it is a huge lesson in the history of aviation. That's the way I see it. The Axis had wonderfully great aircraft. I just won't fly against Americans. I have many times in QMB flown Axis aircraft and they are great machines, no doubt about it.

As I have stated many times on this forum, I am a combat veteran of the USAF in Vietnam. I volunteered for a combat unit. I do believe in patriotism. Someone earlier posted about not having anything personal against the common soldier on the other side, that it is the old man politicians who want to fight the wars. couldn't agree more. I even wrote a post-war college term paper on that very subject.

Whether or not the soldiers and sailors of the Third Reich or the Empire Of Japan knew of their countries' atrocities does not matter. The fact is that in 2007, WE know of them. Do Americans committ atrocities. Yes, but more on a personal level and very, very isolated. I can never live down My Lai.

And please do not compare WWII events with Dubya and Iraq. It does not compute. Iraq is a disgrace and a living horror show. It is indeed an illegal undertaking. I can see easily how the rest of the world sees us as the villains, even though we did remove an evil regime from power. We are referring to WWII, a different time and place.

carguy_
03-13-2007, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sukebeboy:
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/hitler_disco.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Here's another Hitler Bar in Pusan.

http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/hitlah.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


A HITLER BAR ROFL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
chic which is some sort of bizarre cutesy/dystopian anime/cosplay freakshow (complete with porn, which I can't post here) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


@!%#%^:#$%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
When I asked a Korean friend about her fascination with Nazis, her response was "they dress well." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope they at least know that they should not dress like that in Europe or something terrible might happen to them...

alert_1
03-13-2007, 08:35 AM
I feel your pain breeze. There are simply thing I'm not able to do, like shotdown Spit in my trusty Me109.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bewolf
03-13-2007, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I should have stated way back on Page 1 that I am referring to OFFLINE missions. I don't care at all about online, as I very rarely go there, for my own reasons, not to be stated in this thread.

I am truly baffled at the number of people who have referred to me as ignorant and/or immature because I don't want to fly against Americans. Some even brought Iraq into it!

I can see now that for a lot of people, this is merely an arcade online game, no different from WOW, with WWII planes instead of flying Gorkies to shoot at. For me, it is a huge lesson in the history of aviation. That's the way I see it. The Axis had wonderfully great aircraft. I just won't fly against Americans. I have many times in QMB flown Axis aircraft and they are great machines, no doubt about it.

As I have stated many times on this forum, I am a combat veteran of the USAF in Vietnam. I volunteered for a combat unit. I do believe in patriotism. Someone earlier posted about not having anything personal against the common soldier on the other side, that it is the old man politicians who want to fight the wars. couldn't agree more. I even wrote a post-war college term paper on that very subject.

Whether or not the soldiers and sailors of the Third Reich or the Empire Of Japan knew of their countries' atrocities does not matter. The fact is that in 2007, WE know of them. Do Americans committ atrocities. Yes, but more on a personal level and very, very isolated. I can never live down My Lai.

And please do not compare WWII events with Dubya and Iraq. It does not compute. Iraq is a disgrace and a living horror show. It is indeed an illegal undertaking. I can see easily how the rest of the world sees us as the villains, even though we did remove an evil regime from power. We are referring to WWII, a different time and place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point. But honestly, patriotism is a two edged sword, and one has to be very very careful not to slide down the path to nationalism.

I consider myself a patriot myself. That does not mean I see my country as better or worse then others, but as the home I love and would risk my life for to preserve.

That said, this "is" a computer game here. No matter what you think or what you prject into it, it is all based on pixels and coputing power. Everything else is your imagination only you put into the game. By all means, the biggest mistake a person can do is to take a game too serious. You are not shooting american planes, you are shooting pixels representing american planes. That may not be a difference to some ppl on an emotional level, but objectivly, the difference can't be bigger. So in general it all comes down to ones ability to differ. A lot of ppl have no idea how to do that. And I think they can't be blamed.

Still, I always consider it a pity when ppl can't "look over the horizone" or see "the other side".

BSS_AIJO
03-13-2007, 09:37 AM
dood!


you cannot post pics, how about some links.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No really... links, or some google search terms. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


Anyway, aside from hot asian chix dressed in SS uniforms which will have me daydreaming for the next week or two.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

There is the whole game question. To which I can only answer. The war is over.. Nothing we do now can at all in any way change the outcome. On line we need folks who fly red, we need folks who fly blue. That way we have folks to shoot down and other folks to shoot us down. We need that. The game is not a politicol statement, its just a game. The goal is to have fun. You might have more fun flying a particular plane which menas flying a particular nationality and thats ok. But since I fly blue and red I have found that its easy to find pretty decent folks on either side.


BSS_AIJO

ThePhilanthrope
03-13-2007, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When I asked a Korean friend about her fascination with Nazis, her response was "they dress well." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I understand it, that was quite intentional on the Nazis' part.



I'm new here, but what the hey I'll chime in.

I can fully sympathize with the original poster here and I have no rebuke to offer him, though I do disagree.

When you hop into a Bf109 or hoist up a Kar98k in one of these games, the guy who's boots you're figuratively putting yourself into is likely not a monster (unless you're playing some WSS guy, in which case you may very well be playing the villain). By and large the Germans who went into Russia were country folks who were told by a duplicitous government that they had to go fight communism... and the airmen who went aloft to stop allied bombers were doing so in defense of German civilians in many cases.

These were tragic guys in a lot of ways... they were thrown into a hopeless war by a definitively corrupt regime and they paid the price for that in the millions.


I just saw the film "Fog Of War," a documentary about US Defense Secretary Robert McNamara recently. It mainly consists of a long interview in which McNamara tries to make sense of the turbulent times in which he served (and to some extent to exhonerate himself). One of the most striking conclusions he was able to come to was that he successfully navigated the Cuban Missile Crisis because he was able to empathize with Kruschev -- and he met with much less success in Vietnam because he didn't understand his adversary very well at all. It's an important point.

These kinds of conflagrations take a step toward coming to an end when people on all sides are able to empathize with their opposites. To sloppily quote "Shifty" Powers from the Band Of Brothers interviews: "... well, say maybe I liked to fish, and this fella maybe he liked to hunt. Under different circumstances we might've been good friends. But he had a job to do just like I had a job to do."

IMO you don't really begin to see the full and terrible impact of the war until you are able to at least try to see it through everybody's eyes.



That, and the German planes really are a blast to fly... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Philipscdrw
03-13-2007, 11:46 AM
Breeze, you're a combat veteran, how can you say that Il-2 - a computer game - compares to real combat? (I'm not asking a rhetorical question here - I'd assumed that military personnel would be the first to say that there's no similarity between a computer game and real combat!)

SithSpeeder
03-13-2007, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Breeze, you're a combat veteran, how can you say that Il-2 - a computer game - compares to real combat? (I'm not asking a rhetorical question here - I'd assumed that military personnel would be the first to say that there's no similarity between a computer game and real combat!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Although I'm not Breeze, I'll take a stab at answering this. Some of us get immersed in this game, where I would define immersion as feeling like you are THERE and time almost has no meaning (3 or 4 hours go by seemingly at the snap of the fingers). Look at another thread (post by Old_Canuck): http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/144...441028045#3441028045 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1441054045?r=3441028045#3441028045) where he says "Two moments come to mind. One is from Zeke Vs Wildcats where a large flight of line abreast Vals half rolled one after the other and went vertical to bomb a carrier. For a second I forgot it was just a game."

Belief gets suspended. And as computing power increases, it's only going to get better (or worse), depending on your view.

* _54th_Speeder *

jannaspookie
03-13-2007, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
I should have stated way back on Page 1 that I am referring to OFFLINE missions. I don't care at all about online, as I very rarely go there, for my own reasons, not to be stated in this thread.

I am truly baffled at the number of people who have referred to me as ignorant and/or immature because I don't want to fly against Americans. Some even brought Iraq into it!

I can see now that for a lot of people, this is merely an arcade online game, no different from WOW, with WWII planes instead of flying Gorkies to shoot at. For me, it is a huge lesson in the history of aviation. That's the way I see it. The Axis had wonderfully great aircraft. I just won't fly against Americans. I have many times in QMB flown Axis aircraft and they are great machines, no doubt about it.

As I have stated many times on this forum, I am a combat veteran of the USAF in Vietnam. I volunteered for a combat unit. I do believe in patriotism. Someone earlier posted about not having anything personal against the common soldier on the other side, that it is the old man politicians who want to fight the wars. couldn't agree more. I even wrote a post-war college term paper on that very subject.

Whether or not the soldiers and sailors of the Third Reich or the Empire Of Japan knew of their countries' atrocities does not matter. The fact is that in 2007, WE know of them. Do Americans committ atrocities. Yes, but more on a personal level and very, very isolated. I can never live down My Lai.

And please do not compare WWII events with Dubya and Iraq. It does not compute. Iraq is a disgrace and a living horror show. It is indeed an illegal undertaking. I can see easily how the rest of the world sees us as the villains, even though we did remove an evil regime from power. We are referring to WWII, a different time and place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said; I agree. The intelligent comments around here really stand out amongst the argument provoking posts. People are certainly allowed to state their opinions and beliefs, but I'm tired of the bashing, attacking, and just plain ignorant remarks that are found so often in these forums. Just look at any of the threads on one specific type of aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Breeze147
03-13-2007, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Breeze, you're a combat veteran, how can you say that Il-2 - a computer game - compares to real combat? (I'm not asking a rhetorical question here - I'd assumed that military personnel would be the first to say that there's no similarity between a computer game and real combat!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never meant to give that impression. There is nothing even remotely similar to the real combat experience. I'm sorry if I gave that impression to some. All I'm saying is, I can't play as a German or a Japanese against Americans. Or maybe to be clearer, I don't WANT to.

JG4_Helofly
03-13-2007, 02:13 PM
Well, I have no problem shooting at any plane and I don't understand your feelings about that, Breeze. As many people before said it, only a few soldiers were real nazis who supported the regime, but the majority were soldiers just like people who faught for other countrys.
Knowing that, I would say that we should feel uneasy when shooting at planes in general because we simulate a kill. A pilot is virtually dead and there is no difference when it's a german or an american or ... .
Or would you say that it is better to kill a german because he fought for the wrong side?

You know, that's interesting because in many films or games they use some "tricks" when it comes to show the ennemy. For the gamer or the viewer it's easier to accept the kill of the ennemy when he is represented as a stupid evil killing machine without soul.
Watch movies like pearl harbour. When you see the japanese soldiers at the end you have the feeling that there are screaming monkeys.
Same thing for games. Take call of duty for exemple. Your squad mates talks normaly, but the german screems like idiots with a stupid evil voice.

With such effects it's much easier to simply pull the trigger in the game or to accept the death of the people the main caracter kills because they are not represented as humans.

Imagine what people would say if they would see soldiers from both sides doing normal things, and showing normal feelings and than get killed by each other. The "the hero beats the bad guys ones again" effect would not be there.

Maybe a bit off topic, but I think it's an interesting thing which you can see in many films and games.

Fork-N-spoon
03-13-2007, 03:06 PM
Breeze:

If you don't want to hear what people have to say, then I'd suggest keeping your own personal thoughts and preferences to yourself. Whenever I make public statements, I know that somebody is going to comment that has an entirely different point of view from my own.

I personally don't understand why you've a problem shooting at American aircraft or fighting against them, ie playing the Axis. That's an entirely different matter. I too think that it's extremely silly, but your feelings are yours no matter how silly I find them.

MB_Avro_UK
03-13-2007, 03:32 PM
hey Breeze,

I hear you and understand. Our Squad is a mix of Brits and Germans. We fly co-ops and we don't fly against each other as in Luftwaffe v RAF. I don't quite know why but I think it is out of mutual respect. We are great friends and have met each other over a beer or two at 'beer o'clock' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

One thing I don't like doing is shooting down unarmed transports e.g. C-47 Dakota. I prefer a tough fight where I could maybe win or lose...even though it's a game of digital ones and noughts... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

JSG72
03-13-2007, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSG72:
I am afraid to say that I have no problem at all attacking with a need to shoot down allied planes. In fact i fly 99.9% blue.(And it's purely because I grew up to love these weapons)

My upbringing was in the '60s when any of the films I watched or Comic "Commando books were always taking an Allied slant on things.

Any WW2 fighting senarios. Always depicted the Axis in an unrealistic slant with usually Modern day aircraft/Tanks madeup to look like The Enemy.
When I got to my teens ('70s)I read books about the war and was most fascinated to find that the Germans/Japanese didn't fly Havards/108s or crewed Walker Bulldogs made up to be panzers.And indeed had some very good weapons of their own design.Which were basically steamrollered into submission.(As opposed to our own apparently excellent Allied fighting qualities depicted in my pre-teen education?).

This made a more lifelike wartime scenario to me and am quite satisfied now to accept that.

It was during thes readings. which became progresively more intense. I realised that I was being Lied to all my life. And I despise liars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Global Wars of course effect all to some extent. and more so those who have lost a loved one.
I genuinely feel hurt for all in such a situation. No question of nationality.

However I sometimes feel that people who claim they cannot shoot down an aircraft of there own nation within a simulation maybe susceptible to the Lies of their Leaders. (All nations included.)
This is Not a dig at anyone. Just an honest post of my thoughts and perhaps a thought for others to ponder? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You scare me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry. If I scare you. Breeze147?
Although I had divulged my own reasons for having No problems in shooting down Allied planes during this SIM.
Be under no illusions. If I had been of age in 1939 I would have fought for my country.
because there was No Doubt, that it was threatened.
This is the same reason I fly Blue(Normally from 1943-'45).because Germany was being Bombed/ Overwhelmed into submission.
I had read about it and now I can Glimse an experience of the Hopelessness of the situation by flying in this SIM and coming back alive Every time.
I would fly American If they were being threatened.However they weren't so I don't.(Although I do do U.S. in the Pacific.)
You can bet your Billy Boots! That not many of us in this community would have been screaming to fly VVS. If it hadn't been for Maddox Games giving us this great Combat flight Sim. first.

Wars are started by individuals with Scary Ideas. It depends on their Propaganda as to how they can get the support for going to war.
It is left to us as the rest of Humanity to either go with it. Or to see through these lies and put an end to the sufferings of all Nationalities.

Again. Sorry for perhaps diverting slightly. But I am sure you could think of some Nasty allies. Even, within your own neighbourhood/Street/Town/City.
Or have you been tainted by your leaders Propaganda?

Bless the Free World

Breeze147
03-13-2007, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:
Breeze:

If you don't want to hear what people have to say, then I'd suggest keeping your own personal thoughts and preferences to yourself. Whenever I make public statements, I know that somebody is going to comment that has an entirely different point of view from my own.

I personally don't understand why you've a problem shooting at American aircraft or fighting against them, ie playing the Axis. That's an entirely different matter. I too think that it's extremely silly, but your feelings are yours no matter how silly I find them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never made any such statement about not wanting to hear what people have to say.

This is not directed at Fork-n-Spoon, but the "twists and spins" of what I say are now getting out of hand and as someone who has been sent to the corner by the mods once before, it is now time for me to bow out.

Thanks to EVERYONE who participated. I was able to gather the input that I was seeking, both pro and con.

Good Evening!

sukebeboy
03-13-2007, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_AIJO:
dood!


you cannot post pics, how about some links.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No really... links, or some google search terms. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do a google image search for Akasi Nazi

JSG72
03-13-2007, 05:50 PM
AAaahhhh! Well.

That'll be the end of that then.

I hope Breeze, has perhaps found aspects of Human trait that make him realise that it was not just the people he acquaints with who had a moving experience resulting from the War.

Eh? Is this just a game?

Fork-N-spoon
03-13-2007, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Breeze147:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:
Breeze:

If you don't want to hear what people have to say, then I'd suggest keeping your own personal thoughts and preferences to yourself. Whenever I make public statements, I know that somebody is going to comment that has an entirely different point of view from my own.

I personally don't understand why you've a problem shooting at American aircraft or fighting against them, ie playing the Axis. That's an entirely different matter. I too think that it's extremely silly, but your feelings are yours no matter how silly I find them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never made any such statement about not wanting to hear what people have to say.

This is not directed at Fork-n-Spoon, but the "twists and spins" of what I say are now getting out of hand and as someone who has been sent to the corner by the mods once before, it is now time for me to bow out.

Thanks to EVERYONE who participated. I was able to gather the input that I was seeking, both pro and con.

Good Evening! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

:\/ There you go again... I'd suggest refraining from posting topics that strike an emotional chord in your body. Since you cannot play Indians and fly Axis, you're obviously a very emotional person...

You're a riot!

Walrus-
03-14-2007, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:


:\/ There you go again... I'd suggest refraining from posting topics that strike an emotional chord in your body. Since you cannot play Indians and fly Axis, you're obviously a very emotional person...

You're a riot! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right, you should leave the posting on this forum to insensitive blowhards. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

roybaty
03-14-2007, 06:10 PM
I myself lean towards flying axis, because I believe overall it takes more skill to do well in axis planes than allied. It's more of a challenge IMO.

Spinnetti
03-14-2007, 08:01 PM
So what do I do?
My gramps on my moms side (German) was murdered by the russians after his unit surrendered on the eastern front. My Dad (American) was in the Marines then the Army (MP armorer), his brothers were in the coast guard, and the Navy - stationed in Japan at wars end, and lived in Japan for quite a while. My gramps on dads side was US army calvary.

I find if you give em' a bit more lead, its easy to shoot down the American planes - Mustangs and P-38 blow up especially easily http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For the longest time I only flew the FW190, but have been enjoying Wildcat & F6F-5 vs. zeke a lot - Oh and I work for a Japanese company http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just fly what you are comfy with.. nobody is gonna judge your comfort level, but this is another time and our old enemies are all but gone as we create new ones all over the world..

Fork-N-spoon
03-15-2007, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Walrus-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:


:\/ There you go again... I'd suggest refraining from posting topics that strike an emotional chord in your body. Since you cannot play Indians and fly Axis, you're obviously a very emotional person...

You're a riot! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right, you should leave the posting on this forum to insensitive blowhards. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I was being quite insensitive. I could no longer contain myself. This is a game! Well, with the way things in America are going, it will soon be considered "un-American" to participate in any acts against the Nation, flag, and people of the United States be it real, imagined, or virtual. Shhhhhh! Knock-knock-knock Oh no! There are currently several branches of law enforcement at my door and they're all dressed in black with knee high jack boots.

This topic is a hoot! "Oh I'm an American and my grand pappy served, I can't shoot at Americans," oh God! I think I'm going to become ill.

*News flash: It's a flippin game!

Let's see what chopper has to say

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/bolillo_quemado/hardenup.jpg

I think we all need to get the same attitude as the spoof "Chopper Reid" from the "Ronnie John's Half Hour."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

Before some flag waving American comes in and accuses me of not being an American so I wouldn't understand, I am an American. I live in Pennsylvania, the 2nd oldest state in the Republic. I am also Pennsylvania Dutch and can trace my ancestors back into the early 1700s. My father had 13 brothers and sisters born between 1914 1938 so I have all sorts of relatives that fought in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I've older relatives that fought in WWI and older conflicts. I've a lot of history with this country's military, more than most "flag waving new age post 9/11 patriots." I am also a Marine! Butch up, come to your senses, and realize that this is a game not reality.

Walrus-
03-15-2007, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:
Shhhhhh! Knock-knock-knock Oh no! There are currently several branches of law enforcement at my door and they're all dressed in black with knee high jack boots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can't hurt you if you get one of these- quick, put one on!!!

http://www.gamepolitics.com/images/tinfoil-hat.jpg

sukebeboy
03-15-2007, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Walrus-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:
Shhhhhh! Knock-knock-knock Oh no! There are currently several branches of law enforcement at my door and they're all dressed in black with knee high jack boots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can't hurt you if you get one of these- quick, put one on!!!

http://www.gamepolitics.com/images/tinfoil-hat.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what they want you to think! Foil hats actually amplify their signals.

Read and learn the TRUTH!!!!

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000609.html