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Plunkertx
01-05-2008, 07:46 PM
Hey all,
I recently spoke to an ex-ME110 pilot today and he was kind of putting down the TUSKEGEE AIRMEN in regards to their ability to shoot down ME262s. The guy said that the only reason why they shot them down was because they had like 5 to 1 odds against the German jets.

What do you think of this viewpoint? I honeslty did not know my history enough to counter, but could he have a point?

On the other hand, a lot of stuff he was saying (non-Tuskegee) I was able to verify by going back to the old Hermann Goring quotes in 1946 in regards to Germany having the best of everything in the war in terms of soldiers, machine guns, equipment, aircraft, mentioned how the Germans invented the car, the helicopter, etc...lots of pride he had, but he admitted they did not have the natural resources to keep going.

Lastly, he talked about his time growing up during WWII and as a flight cadet in 1944 and wanting to fly FW190s (but got stuck with Me110s). He mentioned how he finally had a chance to touch one that was being ferried on a flatbed train out of Austria during the last days of the WWII. During this incident, the area was being bombed and he could witness the mortars from brick buildings being shot out by the bomb blasts and how it was the loudest think he's ever heard. He lost his hearing from this. Back on the topic about the FW190...he asked an officer if he could climb into the train and have some men assemble the wings on the FW190 and load the ammo so he could fly out of there--he was given permission to do so, but then he saw the SS coming and he feared being arrested by them more than getting shot down.

Plunkertx
01-05-2008, 07:46 PM
Hey all,
I recently spoke to an ex-ME110 pilot today and he was kind of putting down the TUSKEGEE AIRMEN in regards to their ability to shoot down ME262s. The guy said that the only reason why they shot them down was because they had like 5 to 1 odds against the German jets.

What do you think of this viewpoint? I honeslty did not know my history enough to counter, but could he have a point?

On the other hand, a lot of stuff he was saying (non-Tuskegee) I was able to verify by going back to the old Hermann Goring quotes in 1946 in regards to Germany having the best of everything in the war in terms of soldiers, machine guns, equipment, aircraft, mentioned how the Germans invented the car, the helicopter, etc...lots of pride he had, but he admitted they did not have the natural resources to keep going.

Lastly, he talked about his time growing up during WWII and as a flight cadet in 1944 and wanting to fly FW190s (but got stuck with Me110s). He mentioned how he finally had a chance to touch one that was being ferried on a flatbed train out of Austria during the last days of the WWII. During this incident, the area was being bombed and he could witness the mortars from brick buildings being shot out by the bomb blasts and how it was the loudest think he's ever heard. He lost his hearing from this. Back on the topic about the FW190...he asked an officer if he could climb into the train and have some men assemble the wings on the FW190 and load the ammo so he could fly out of there--he was given permission to do so, but then he saw the SS coming and he feared being arrested by them more than getting shot down.

Aviar
01-05-2008, 07:49 PM
Interesting....even combat pilots can be sore losers....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aviar

Plunkertx
01-05-2008, 07:59 PM
Yea, I think a lot of these old guys are starting to lose their thinking, but I still think a lot of them could be right despite what history books may say (I'm not saying he was right about the Tuskegee comment).

Oh, he really admired and respected the British Spitfire calling it the best fighter of the war--even better than Germany's fighters.

Lets see what else....he basically put down the American government for having so much false pride in everything they do...pride, he said, was based on false facts. He said the people are finally waking up and doing something about it in the new elections....he said the FW190s flew at a slight downward angle so they could see over the dashboard in flight....said dropping bombs from ME110s, despite altitude, was so loud that he hated doing it....well, he just kept emphasising on this comment that "I am living history, I tell it as it was and how I saw it".

Take it for what it's worth. Funny ancedote, he went on to fight in the US Air Force during KOREA.

stalkervision
01-05-2008, 08:10 PM
The TUSKEGEE AIRMEN were no doubt excellent pilots. The guys has a slight point though. The 262 wasn't one the hardes't planes to shoot down. Many many inexperianced german pilots tried to use thr 262 as a dogfighter which it truly sucked at. The 262 was a bomber interceptor. When used in this roll and used properly it was nearly impossibls to stop by any pilot. Fortunatley the numbers of well trained airmen and aircraft were on our side and not the germans. Also fortunately the numbers of operational 262's was small and many if not most were operated by inexperianced airman that could hardly fight in the plane.

Yes, I know there were a few "expert squadrons" of 262's pilots. The truth is at the end of the war aviation fuel was in very short supply but kerosene jet fuel was still available. Many many many poorly trained pilots ended up flying 262 as more were built because the fuel situation was so bad. Many were killed in training accidents and the ones that managed to learn to take off and land them again hardly knew what to do with the jet once they were in the air.

na85
01-05-2008, 08:15 PM
Any plane is susceptible to VD...

Vulch Disease http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bearcat99
01-05-2008, 08:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
Hey all,
I recently spoke to an ex-ME110 pilot today and he was kind of putting down the TUSKEGEE AIRMEN in regards to their ability to shoot down ME262s. The guy said that the only reason why they shot them down was because they had like 5 to 1 odds against the German jets.

What do you think of this viewpoint? I honeslty did not know my history enough to counter, but could he have a point?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many of the 262s shot down during the last year of the war were shot down when they were taking off or landing.... However on March 24, 1945 when the 332nd shot down 3 262s.. the 262s in question were attacking a flight of B-17s... Therefore AFAIC they were valid targets and deserved to get smoked.. and they did... handily. By Lt. Roscoe C. Brown, F/O Charles V. Brantley and Lt. Earle R. Lane. Regardless to the excuses that many, not only here on these boards but elsewhere as well want to make about axis losses towards the end of the war (I am not referring to YOU.. I understand you are just reporting what was said to you.. but others have come here making excuses in the past...) the bottom line is that it was war... and Germany was on the loosing side at the time. There were also Fw-190s on that particular day in the mix as well.... as it was an attack on Berlin.

stalkervision
01-05-2008, 09:08 PM
What I find the most outatanding about the TUSKEGEE AIRMEN was their bomber loss record. This shows they were truly outstanding team players and guarded their charges like no other pilots I know of in ww 2.

T_O_A_D
01-05-2008, 09:45 PM
Here is Lt. Roscoe C. Brown and I at the Gathering of Mustangs and Legends. Super Super Dude, and handshake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ignore my most recent kill, Hotdog/Ketchup on me shirt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/Aircraft%20Pics/Gathering%20of%20Mustangs%20an%20Legends/GatheringoftheMustangs202.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
01-05-2008, 09:45 PM
With respect to the veteran's opinion, his opinion is flawed. But flawed in a manner that is all too common. It is an opinion of haste. Like everything in life there are more than a single cause for the success or the failure of a venture.

The allies and in particular the Americans [as the jets posed a greater threat to the daylight operation of the USAAC that to the night operation or the RAF] mounted a massive effort to hunt down and destroy all German jet aircraft. They pulled out ALL the stops.

Remarkably there was even an effort mounted, similar to the British PERFECTOS system, that would trip the FuG 25 IFF transponder and betray the position of the 262 on a SCOPE mounted in a modified 2 seat aircraft. This aircraft would vector packs of other fighters to get the 262!

I wonder why this person that was interviewed felt it necessary to specifically comment on the Tuskegee airmen. Rather than saying something like - "the 262 was hunted down and failed to lift the air siege over Germany, because it was out numbered." Going out of his way and mentioning the Tuskegee airmen by name seems particularly troubling to me.

Bewolf
01-06-2008, 05:15 AM
I doubt he speficly mentioned the Tuskegee just so. Prolly it was in a context not mentioned yet. If not, then it would be odd indeed.

Chris0382
01-06-2008, 08:13 AM
All pilots had trouble shooting down ME-262's they were too fast and as one said they were mostly targeted on take off and landings.

My brother had trouble shooting one down using a Tie-Fighter in his PS2 game.

The Tuskegee Airman like most Black soldiers were called to do sometimes the tougher jobs in worse situations and sometimes showed more bravery than white soldiers; and this may have contributed to their great combat record. Not to mention their resolve to prove themselves worthy.

Bremspropeller
01-06-2008, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Many of the 262s shot down during the last year of the war were shot down when they were taking off or landing.... However on March 24, 1945 when the 332nd shot down 3 262s.. the 262s in question were attacking a flight of B-17s... Therefore AFAIC they were valid targets and deserved to get smoked.. and they did... handily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Out of what Bearcat posted, I think one can at least understand this guy's feelings.
The 262s were vulnerable in the traffic-pattern and therefore that was where they got smoked.

Imagine you had the hottest fighter around, but you couldn't take off, because as soon as you left the shelter there was a couple of P-51s to "welcome" you.


That has nothing to do with a "sore looser", but with a lot of bitterness.

The Tuskegee-guys were by any means good pilots. They had to - they wanted to prove themselves as equal. And to no surprise, they did.


That 5:1 qoute is not wrong at all. Starting from D-day on, there was no place to hide from the overwhelming odds of allied air-power.

LW_lcarp
01-06-2008, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris0382:
.The Tuskegee Airman like most Black soldiers were called to do sometimes the tougher jobs in worse situations and sometimes showed more bravery than white soldiers; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if I get this statment correct then you are saying that what ever the "white" soliders did really doesnt match up to what the "black" soliders did?

its amazing the ignorance some people show about one race or another. What about the Japanese-Americans? The Indians? The 442nd was a Japanese/American unit which fought in Italy ,France,and Germany. The major distinction of this unit is that it is the most highly decorated Unit in World War 2 with 21 Medals of Honor issued. And all this when most of those in the units family were interned in detention centers.

Being a vetran myself I can honestly say I dont have your narrowmindedness of any skin color. We are all soldiers watching out for each other when it comes time to drop the hammer

Bearcat99
01-06-2008, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris0382:
.The Tuskegee Airman like most Black soldiers were called to do sometimes the tougher jobs in worse situations and sometimes showed more bravery than white soldiers; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if I get this statment correct then you are saying that what ever the "white" soliders did really doesnt match up to what the "black" soliders did?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that is what he is saying at all... I think he meant exactly what he said. That is how YOU took it Don't read more into it than is there, besides what he said is true in many cases... which is not to negate the contributions of white soldiers at all. That would be silly and totally unfounded.. Nor is it to say that the efforts of black soldiers were rendered more valuable than any other group but I can mention several instances not only with The Airmen but with the 76st Tank battalion as well where they showed more moxie than their white contemporaries.. and it was according to the veterans themselves, because they knew they HAD to.. they could not afford to be but so afraid... the alternative was capture or going back home in disgrace...

H@ll I can also show instances where one unit showed more bravery than another unit.. it happened. There is no reason to qualify it, defend it or justify it regardless to the race of the unit. Racism was a fact back then in the U.S. military and it was a fact that black units had to work harder to get the same kudos... and often that didn't matter either. It is history and it is more a condemnation of the system at the time than the contributions of soldiers of other/either ethnic make up.

I_KG100_Prien
01-06-2008, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris0382:
.The Tuskegee Airman like most Black soldiers were called to do sometimes the tougher jobs in worse situations and sometimes showed more bravery than white soldiers; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if I get this statment correct then you are saying that what ever the "white" soliders did really doesnt match up to what the "black" soliders did?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that is what he is saying at all... I think he meant exactly what he said. That is how YOU took it Don't read more into it than is there, besides what he said is true in many cases... which is not to negate the contributions of white soldiers at all. That would be silly and totally unfounded.. Nor is it to say that the efforts of black soldiers were rendered more valuable than any other group but I can mention several instances not only with The Airmen but with the 76st Tank battalion as well where they showed more moxie than their white contemporaries.. and it was according to the veterans themselves, because they knew they HAD to.. they could not afford to be but so afraid... the alternative was capture or going back home in disgrace...

H@ll I can also show instances where one unit showed more bravery than another unit.. it happened. There is no reason to qualify it, defend it or justify it regardless to the race of the unit. Racism was a fact back then in the U.S. military and it was a fact that black units had to work harder to get the same kudos... and often that didn't matter either. It is history and it is more a condemnation of the system at the time than the contributions of soldiers of other/either ethnic make up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. Given the mentality of the times, if the black service members had gone over there and shown a "don't care" attitude, it would have just made the naysayers feel they were right. They HAD to show they were good enough, if anything to help break the ignorance surrounding skin color meaning anything- Which is jack and squat.

It's about whats inside. Plain and simple. There was bravery that came from all walks of life. Some folks just had it easier because of the B-S superiority complexes that were so common back in those days.

Metatron_123
01-06-2008, 05:06 PM
To sum all this up: The overwhelming number of allied aircraft, plus the fact that by late 1943/1944 they could properly escort their bombers all the way to Germany, meant the following things:

1)The German transportation system was continually harassed.

2)The oil industry was continually pounded and this led to:
a)shortening number of sorties flown.
b)shortening of training.

3)The Luftwaffe had to deal with overwhelming numbers of enemies.

So obviously the numbers of allied fighters has a lot to do with the Luftwaffe not doing so well in 1944-1945.
But it's more of a chain reaction that led to a vicious cycle than a single deciding factor: Less oil-Less training-more losses-need for more pilots-less training.

Also to give you insight into another aspect of the air war:

'' The last days of the war showed a dramatic decrease in the morale of the surviving officers in the Gruppe and especially in our Staffel, when they practically refused to lead even a formation of four aircraft (Schwarm).
They prefered to leave death to their
subordinates, to the surviving sergeants, while they made plans for the moment the war would end...
Our own Staffelkapitan suddenly dissapeared in February 1945 with leave for his marriage, without ever returning, his replacement on the other hand kept wandering around the base, supposedly ill, without ever flying on a mission. He would only take part in routine flights, back towards the Reich.
The commander was on his way to Germany to discuss the acquisition of some Me-262s for his unit.
At this time, one meaningful saying was circulating between us sub officers: ''Enjoy the war because peace will be terrible'.''

Obergefreiter Karl-Georg Genth, 12/JG26

Genth was a Fw-190 D-9 pilot at the time. He scored two kills during his short career, a Spitfire (while flying a Bf-109 G-14), and a Tempest flown by famous ace David Fairbanks(15 kills).
He was himself shot down by a Tempest flown by Greek ace Vasilios Vasiliades (9 kills, kia 25 march 1945), at march 7 1945, when he was wounded and removed from action.

I'm a big Luftwaffe fan, but it's obvious from Genth's description that not all commanders were as gallant as Erich Hartman, and many simply cared about saving their lives in early 1945.
I can't say I blame them.

Note that the biggest percentage of German pilots killed at this time were indeed the young sub officers that of course had less experience. The shot down Me-262s were also mostly piloted by the less experienced chaps.

The fact that Genth, a mere corporal trained late in the war did this well and even shot down a 15 kill ace which obviously had a better training, is definitely to his credit. Especially seeing he was very against the war, losing his father in the Battle Of Britain and his 18 year old brother in Poland during 1945. Also, his mother was at the time living in a house ruined by allied bombing. My point being, there was not much to keep his spirits up...

Chris0382
01-07-2008, 07:21 AM
I dont want to take away from any heroics of any other races. It is a fact being a Black person in the military required some tougher expectaitions. The Movie Men of Honor had a lot of truth in it although made Hollywood style.

Sometimes there is no better motivation to perform than resolve and the determination to prove people that dispell you wrong.

Bearcat99
01-07-2008, 07:31 AM
It is the history...

Yellonet
01-07-2008, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris0382:
I dont want to take away from any heroics of any other races. It is a fact being a Black person in the military required some tougher expectaitions. The Movie Men of Honor had a lot of truth in it although made Hollywood style.

Sometimes there is no better motivation to perform than resolve and the determination to prove people that dispell you wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There's only one race of human.

LW_lcarp
01-07-2008, 02:02 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Thats what its all about but some dont see that in what I wrote

DuxCorvan
01-07-2008, 02:03 PM
TOAD looks like the late John Ritter. I wonder if he lives with two chicks (and has sex with neither). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

T_O_A_D
01-07-2008, 02:32 PM
3 and 1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif