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View Full Version : AIM-120 effective range too short at 15 miles



BSS_Vidar
03-14-2006, 07:45 PM
1C worked on Lock On: Flaming Cliffs, so I thought I'ld ask the question here.

In the multi-player F-15C mission, the MiG-29's and SU-27's are getting their missiles off the rails well before I can get a lock on them. I know - without going into "certain" details that no air-to-air weapon beats the stand-off range of the AIM-120 AAMRAM, short of the "almost" extinct AIM-54C Pheonix.

Is there something wrong here, or do I need to use a different mode other than RWS/TWS?

S!

BSS_Vidar
03-14-2006, 07:45 PM
1C worked on Lock On: Flaming Cliffs, so I thought I'ld ask the question here.

In the multi-player F-15C mission, the MiG-29's and SU-27's are getting their missiles off the rails well before I can get a lock on them. I know - without going into "certain" details that no air-to-air weapon beats the stand-off range of the AIM-120 AAMRAM, short of the "almost" extinct AIM-54C Pheonix.

Is there something wrong here, or do I need to use a different mode other than RWS/TWS?

S!

LEXX_Luthor
03-14-2006, 08:02 PM
You can try the simhqzoo ~> http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=146

Oleg hates jets. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Actually, I think R-37 may beat -54 in range, not counting radar performance, and they have that new missile built on S-300 but I don't know if they make it. Other than that, Iran has the longest range air-air missiles.

Bussard_1
03-14-2006, 08:06 PM
BSS_Vidar,
Wrong forum.
Wrong radar mode.
Wrong intell.
Radar mode should be,tws to find them, rws to discrimate and then stt to lock and fire.
MiG29s and especially SU27s are superior radar platforms with unsupported BVR engagement envelopes using the AA12(R77)and especially the AA10C(R27).
Trading BVR shots with a SU27 will often result in a nylon let down.
This one is not Oleg's.
Have a bandit day!

Badsight.
03-14-2006, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
1C worked on Lock On: Flaming Cliffs, so I thought I'ld ask the question here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Eagle Dynamics are the programmers of "Lock-On"

1C is a game publishing company

this is a Maddox Games forum

3 different companys

Megile_
03-15-2006, 01:53 AM
It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty.. the range of the AIM120C is classified.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Radar mode should be,tws to find them, rws to discrimate and then stt to lock and fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

disagree 100%

RWS to find them, TWS to designate them and launch.
Only go to STT if you are sure there is only 1 target, and/or the others are not threats.

ElAurens
03-15-2006, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile_:
It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty.. the range of the AIM120C is classified.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence the inherant problem with all modern jet sims. The actual performance of weapons and aircraft are essentially state secrets...

And they all have too many bloody buttons, and stuff...

Take your jet whines elsewhere.

Props rule.

Jets are for kids.

Be sure.

Treetop64
03-15-2006, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
1C worked on Lock On: Flaming Cliffs, so I thought I'ld ask the question here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you ask your question at the Lock-On forums instead? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

SeaFireLIV
03-15-2006, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile_:
It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty.. the range of the AIM120C is classified.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence the inherant problem with all modern jet sims. The actual performance of weapons and aircraft are essentially state secrets...

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is one of the reasons I`m not so fond of modern weapon games any more since everything you fly (fighter jets) or drive (tanks), is likely to be either porked or uberised, depending which nation made the sim and even if somehow the TRUE abilities of the platforms were used, the Devs would probably be jailed under State security laws!

Unlikely to happen with aircraft that are 50-60 years old! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Megile_
03-15-2006, 11:02 AM
You could make a fairly accurate '60s era jet sim seeing as quite a bit of data has been declassified WRT missile and radar technology.. i can see why LEXX is obsessed with them..

VW-IceFire
03-15-2006, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile_:
It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty.. the range of the AIM120C is classified.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence the inherant problem with all modern jet sims. The actual performance of weapons and aircraft are essentially state secrets...

And they all have too many bloody buttons, and stuff...

Take your jet whines elsewhere.

Props rule.

Jets are for kids.

Be sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is true. Modeling that stuff is mostly guesswork from the sounds of it.

I do like jets tho...I was watching a documentary on Korea today. F-80's with rockets and bombs would be wild.

Capt.England
03-15-2006, 11:49 AM
Me thinks this is a fishing contest?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Megile_
03-15-2006, 11:52 AM
zomg the horror!111

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-15-2006, 11:56 AM
I friggin' love the fact that you have a photo of alan p in your signature http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

UberPickle
03-15-2006, 12:02 PM
You can always make longshots at 20 miles and MAYBE hit something.

It's never smart to attack flankers or mig-29's at bvr anyways.

Also, lock-on isnt a sim I would recommend. Falcon 4.0 AF or Falcon 4.0 SuperPak would be the directions I would point you in for a Air Combat Sim.

JG5_UnKle
03-15-2006, 12:29 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/partridge/wallpaper/alan_lap_640.jpg

vanjast
03-15-2006, 01:26 PM
Is this Alan P a commedian or another one of those USA 'in your face' jerks ?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Breeze147
03-15-2006, 01:34 PM
He is the estranged father of the Partridge Family.

joeap
03-15-2006, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile_:
It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty.. the range of the AIM120C is classified.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence the inherant problem with all modern jet sims. The actual performance of weapons and aircraft are essentially state secrets...

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is one of the reasons I`m not so fond of modern weapon games any more since everything you fly (fighter jets) or drive (tanks), is likely to be either porked or uberised, depending which nation made the sim and even if somehow the TRUE abilities of the platforms were used, the Devs would probably be jailed under State security laws!

Unlikely to happen with aircraft that are 50-60 years old! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you have a point but, Steel Beasts Pro is supposed to be used as a military trainer, made by ex-tankers. There is a personal edition ($125 though) and every review I've read raves about its hardcore realism..it is a bit steep and beyond most people though.

Megile_
03-15-2006, 01:42 PM
AAAHHAAAA!!!

checkout some clips here

Alan partridge the anti-terrorist:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8460557447844835569&q=alan+partridge

Alan partridge, kiss my face!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4007056088939379516&q=alan+partridge

BSS_Vidar
03-15-2006, 01:59 PM
I have Falcon 4.0 and Allied Force. Had it and its upgrades for years now. IMO it pales in compareson to Lock On. I could care less about campaigns, and kiddy stuff like that. I just want to go up against others on-line.

Why post here? Becasue Oleg's team was involved with Flaming Cliffs, so Oleg's Ready Room SHOULD be one of the best places to ask. Discriminating jets from props in "his" Ready Room makes no since what-so-ever, meaning anything his team has worked on should be applicable for open discussion. I do frequent the Lock On forums as well, however, I'm just spreading my options for an answere.

As for those who think "Jets are for kids", you have no idea what you're missing. As a retired Naval Aviator, there's nothing better designed for PC gaming. It's not all as automatic as you may think. Missiles are not a 100% probability for a kill. Countermeasures properly deployed can save your bacon in a sticky situation. You just have to take the time to learn the weapon systems. BTW, Gunzo (Guns Only) in jets is the most challenging and intence flying you'll ever do on that PC of yours. You just need a little intestinal fortitude, and learn the game.

As for accuracy, It's scary to me just how close the original designers of this sim got it right - save all the performance bugs before Flaming Cliffs and the latest patch came out. I was a Mavarick missile Subject Matter Expert (SME) in my squadron, and I can safely say without giving away any state secrets - They did an awesome job.

As for RWS/TWS mode, it is SUPPOSE to be the optimal mode for BVR while driving into a multi-target environment and getting a few birds in before visual range engagements. I transverse through any, if not all, modes as required during my transition through each "layer" of the battle senerio.

Lock On is the closest thing I've seen so far that compares to an actual Weapon System Trainer (WST). The graphics in Lock On blows any Navy trainer I've ever flown to pieces. And I've flown the best we've got.

ImpStarDuece
03-15-2006, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
You can try the simhqzoo ~&gt; http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=146

Oleg hates jets. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Actually, I think R-37 may beat -54 in range, not counting radar performance, and they have that new missile built on S-300 but I don't know if they make it. Other than that, Iran has the longest range air-air missiles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with Leadspitter here, don't be so quick to believe the hype: the R-37 has better range than a AIM-120 and similar range to the AIM-54. The R-33/AA-9 'Amos' built for the Mig-31 also has a definate range advantages over the AIM-120, but inferior terminal performance.

Even the standard R-27/AA-10 Alamo may have superior range to the AIM 120 in certain conditions, like in an active radar front on shot, with the versions deployed in the 1990s having a MEZ (missile engagment zone) approaching 120-130 kilometers.

BSS_Vidar
03-15-2006, 03:12 PM
Agreed, Just because the ex-Soviet block weapons are big enough to carry a lot of propellant, doesn't mean they can hit the target at a long range. AAMRAMS have a 96% kill effectiveness within a (sensored) &*$#@ mile range, depending on target aspect.

Treetop64
03-15-2006, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
I have Falcon 4.0 and Allied Force. Had it and its upgrades for years now. IMO it pales in compareson to Lock On. I could care less about campaigns, and kiddy stuff like that. I just want to go up against others on-line.

Why post here? Becasue Oleg's team was involved with Flaming Cliffs, so Oleg's Ready Room SHOULD be one of the best places to ask. Discriminating jets from props in "his" Ready Room makes no since what-so-ever, meaning anything his team has worked on should be applicable for open discussion. I do frequent the Lock On forums as well, however, I'm just spreading my options for an answere.

As for those who think "Jets are for kids", you have no idea what you're missing. As a retired Naval Aviator, there's nothing better designed for PC gaming. It's not all as automatic as you may think. Missiles are not a 100% probability for a kill. Countermeasures properly deployed can save your bacon in a sticky situation. You just have to take the time to learn the weapon systems. BTW, Gunzo (Guns Only) in jets is the most challenging and intence flying you'll ever do on that PC of yours. You just need a little intestinal fortitude, and learn the game.

As for accuracy, It's scary to me just how close the original designers of this sim got it right - save all the performance bugs before Flaming Cliffs and the latest patch came out. I was a Mavarick missile Subject Matter Expert (SME) in my squadron, and I can safely say without giving away any state secrets - They did an awesome job.

As for RWS/TWS mode, it is SUPPOSE to be the optimal mode for BVR while driving into a multi-target environment and getting a few birds in before visual range engagements. I transverse through any, if not all, modes as required during my transition through each "layer" of the battle senerio.

Lock On is the closest thing I've seen so far that compares to an actual Weapon System Trainer (WST). The graphics in Lock On blows any Navy trainer I've ever flown to pieces. And I've flown the best we've got. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on. Didn't know Oleg's team worked on Flaming Cliffs (I still HATE that title, though: "Flaming Cliffs")

mortoma
03-15-2006, 07:01 PM
Ya know, I fired an Aim-120 from my Mustang in QMB the other day. And come to think of it, it didn't
go very far. Who the feck cares this is the PF/IL2/FB/WWII sim forum!!!! The title of this thread should have at least been prefaced by "OT".
Come to think of it, with "Aim-120" in the title. maybe not, maybe not.

BSS_Vidar
03-16-2006, 05:53 PM
I disagree.

This was started in "Oleg's Readyroom", then moved here. Just because most of the posters there fly props, doesn't meant it should be restricted to that. This was directed in a fasion as a request for a responce for one of Oleg's projects.

BTW, I got my answere in another way. A buddy of mine, who's an ex-Hornet driver was on the development team for Lock On. He rose the red flag about the AAMRAM's effectiveness since FC came out. I told him I get lock at 15 miles. He was completley aware of that issue, and told me I should be getting more than twice that distance to engage an AAMRAM.

Go figure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Jetbuff
03-16-2006, 06:16 PM
Oleg did not work on Flaming Cliffs. There are rumours there may have been some unofficial collaboration on the graphics engine but other than that and the fact that they share the same Russian distributor (1C) they are completely unrelated. Eagle Dynamics is completely separate from Maddox Games.

SeaFireLIV
03-16-2006, 06:21 PM
I can see why there are rumours though. When I look at the graphics of IL2 and the graphics of Flaming cliffs it`s almost like looking at `IL2/FB : 60 years later!`

Cosmonaut.
03-17-2006, 10:35 AM
As far as I know the amraam does have slightly shorter legs than something like an R-27ER so whats modeled in lockon is probably quite realistic. However getting a shot off first doesn€t mean a whole lot when you€re talking about SARH v ARH. With the correct A-pole maneuvers you can force the bandit to go defensive way before his missile hits you and once he looses lock his missile will go ballistic leaving you to hunt him down.

As far as only being able to lock targets at 15nm .. hmm well at what altitude are you flying? Against AI at 30 000ft I can lock a target up at 45nm in TWS mode and launch at 25 nm. The lower you go the short the range .. remember A2A missiles are effectively gliders so the thick air and lack of altitude will greatly reduce the range. As for real life well most A2A kills happen with in 10nm miles and this also plays out quite well in Lockon taking into consideration that Su27€s/Mig29S€s have never engaged or been engaged by F15€s. Also in lockon both sides have equal numbers, equally trained crews and have equally well maintained top of the line equipment. In real life an Eagle driver would out number his opponent and have Awacs support while engaging something like a couple of very, very old Mig29A€s carrying r-27r€s which the 120 will eat for breakfast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

I would say that IMO all BVR missiles are spoofed a little too easily by chaff and AI can be a little too efficient at evading semi active missiles. Online is a slightly different story and hard to compare to real life engagements for the same reasons as I guess IL2 and every other online game/sim is€¦ and that is lag, players that can exploit certain aspects of online play and the most popular €œI don€t care about my life or my aircraft so I will pull as many G€s at any speed and altitude time and time again until I win or have to click re-fly€ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif . Which is some thing a real life pilot just couldn€t physically do even if his equipment allowed him to.

Enforcer572005
03-18-2006, 08:29 AM
dont forget strike fighters and wings over vietnam, whch can be combined. they are basically 1960s sims, but theres tons of user adon stuff, including modern weapons. though a bit dated, it still great wiht excellent graphics. Lots of user made cmpns in many theatres to. just wish i had more time to fly it more. not nearly as advanced as lockon, but alot more versatile.

VMF-214_HaVoK
03-18-2006, 08:57 AM
Your correct Vidar. The 120 is porked badly, but post it here http://forum.lockon.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=33