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View Full Version : While "What If?s" are in vogue....



Low_Flyer_MkII
08-05-2005, 07:58 PM
I read recently that the Air Ministry very nearly cancelled Spitfire production before WWII in favour of the Beaufighter......

So, what if.....?

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-05-2005, 07:58 PM
I read recently that the Air Ministry very nearly cancelled Spitfire production before WWII in favour of the Beaufighter......

So, what if.....?

jensenpark
08-05-2005, 08:54 PM
ooooh - think about it:

4 .303's and 4 20mm cannons shredding a He111 or Stuka above England - instead of 8 .303's plinking away.

han freak solo
08-05-2005, 09:01 PM
I guess the Bf-109s would have had a better kill ratio in the BOB. But, what if there were no Bf-109s either??

JG7_Rall
08-05-2005, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
I guess the Bf-109s would have had a better kill ratio in the BOB. But, what if there were no Bf-109s either?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


But what if WWII never happened!?!? WHOA!

Atomic_Marten
08-05-2005, 10:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
I guess the Bf-109s would have had a better kill ratio in the BOB. But, what if there were no Bf-109s either?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


But what if WWII never happened!?!? WHOA! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if Pre wasn't really a winner?

3.JG51_BigBear
08-05-2005, 11:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
I read recently that the Air Ministry very nearly cancelled Spitfire production before WWII in favour of the Beaufighter......

So, what if.....? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The BF110, which was the pride of the Luftwaffe in Goering's eyes, would have probably lived up to its expectations. The "heavy" figher would have become the preferred fighter type by the German and Allied airforces leading to production of a P-38 with performance equal to that which we have in game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
08-06-2005, 06:24 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

reverendkrv1972
08-06-2005, 06:25 AM
if the spitfire never exhisted,there would have been even more Hurricanes,then she would not have been pushed(unfairly)into the background by her pretty sister. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rev

han freak solo
08-06-2005, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
I guess the Bf-109s would have had a better kill ratio in the BOB. But, what if there were no Bf-109s either?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


But what if WWII never happened!?!? WHOA! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if Pre wasn't really a winner? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

His name would be Postfontaine.

MEGILE
08-06-2005, 11:10 AM
Pre was a winner? I thought he got caught doping?

LStarosta
08-06-2005, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Pre was a winner? I thought he got caught doping? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was Ian Stewart.

briyeo
08-06-2005, 11:56 AM
If the Spitfire never existed perhaps the Hurricane would have evolved more dramaticaly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/briyeo/CopyofSuperHurriCloseSupportAircraf.jpg

LStarosta
08-06-2005, 11:59 AM
Is that photoshopped?

wayno7777
08-06-2005, 12:33 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifIf you're gonna put a Griffon in a Hurri, you need to lengthen the rear fuselage and add a stabilizing fin to the tail...C/G baby... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

briyeo
08-06-2005, 12:46 PM
No its still a Merlin, and the tail fin is increased in size, and, your not really going to start a technical discussion about my pic are you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

wayno7777
08-06-2005, 12:57 PM
Relax, just funnin'... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

han freak solo
08-06-2005, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by briyeo:
If the Spitfire never existed perhaps the Hurricane would have evolved more dramaticaly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice concept! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-06-2005, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Pre was a winner? I thought he got caught doping? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was Ian Stewart. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't think it was Ian Stewart unless we are talking about another Ian Stewart? Are we talking about the Ian Stewart who is honoured in the Scotish sports hall of fame ?

Just curious

LStarosta
08-06-2005, 02:25 PM
Only if they were talking about the Pre who was honored with every single American record in distances greater than a mile.

Even Ian Stewart admitted he was a ***** in '72 compared to Prefontaine.

And I quote:

"The way I ran, I didn't deserve a medal." Ian Stewart


Lasse Viren who won the 5K in 72 was quoted:

"I have no particular tactics, I just want to be [doped up] when the race starts."

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-06-2005, 02:34 PM
Hmmmm, Beaufighter v 110 dogfights sound interesting. And I like briyeo's idea - the Hurri is definately underrated historically.
Maybe Britain would have been forced to buy more P-40's, or even Brewsters...."Achtung! Buffalo!"...doesn't quite stir the blood, does it?

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-06-2005, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Only if they were talking about the Pre who was honored with every single American record in distances greater than a mile.

Even Ian Stewart admitted he was a ***** in '72 compared to Prefontaine.

And I quote:

"The way I ran, I didn't deserve a medal." Ian Stewart


Lasse Viren who won the 5K in 72 was quoted:

"I have no particular tactics, I just want to be [doped up] when the race starts." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes mate but was Ian caught doping?

LStarosta
08-06-2005, 02:40 PM
AFAIK, he was caught doping the same amount of times Prefontaine was.

Nill.

Which was kinda my point when I brought up Stewart. Then again I am not thinking coherently today.

I guess the moral of the story is, I think Lasse Viren doped, but he won't admit to it and blood doping wasn't illegal back then so there really isn't much to be discussed. I won't go into detail about how Lasse Viren's times shaved down immensely before big meets such as the Olympics and then went back up.

Then again, the man hasn't run for years and all of a sudden he manages an 18 minute 5K road/cross country race without any preparations.

I dunno what to think.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-06-2005, 02:49 PM
Fair enough mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was just having a playful poke. As Ian Stewart was the reason I was named Iain Stuart by my father and I did a bit of track myself back in the day Gimme a shout next time and I'll buy you a pint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
08-06-2005, 02:53 PM
typhoon anyone?

TAGERT.
08-06-2005, 03:03 PM
What if monkeys with ray guns and red hats could fly out of my but on command? Huh? Huh?

Ankanor
08-06-2005, 03:04 PM
we have a saying about the "what ifs"

What if Granny was male? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Atomic_Marten
08-06-2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ankanor:
What if Granny was male? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is awful scary. http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/smileys/yuk.gif

Jagdklinger
08-06-2005, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What if monkeys with ray guns and red hats could fly out of my but on command? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean you can't do that? ...in that case, I presume that isn't a P-38L (LATE)in your sig... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Monty_Thrud
08-06-2005, 06:12 PM
Then the Tempest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

LStarosta
08-06-2005, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
Fair enough mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was just having a playful poke. As Ian Stewart was the reason I was named Iain Stuart by my father and I did a bit of track myself back in the day Gimme a shout next time and I'll buy you a pint http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good deal! Just keep it on the down low unless you want to be arrested for contributing to a minor's delinquency or something.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-07-2005, 12:10 AM
What if there were no "what ifs"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Aaron_GT
08-07-2005, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If the Spitfire never existed perhaps the Hurricane would have evolved more dramaticaly </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hawker was already developing the Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest/Fury series as the replacement.

briyeo
08-07-2005, 02:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If the Spitfire never existed perhaps the Hurricane would have evolved more dramaticaly </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hawker was already developing the Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest/Fury series as the replacement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the Spitfire was well on its way to become a fine fighter. Sorry I was having a bad dream, woke up in the shower. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

John_Stag
08-07-2005, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wayno7777:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifIf you're gonna put a Griffon in a Hurri, you need to lengthen the rear fuselage and add a stabilizing fin to the tail...C/G baby... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Check the middle aircraft:

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/394_1123407314_61-b.jpg

Kocur_
08-07-2005, 04:40 AM
...ehm...words in brackets in above drawnings descriptions are Polish for "project, reconstruction"...ehm... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So if there were no Spits, RAF would be just behing VVS (Yaks) in having basic fighter of most obsolete, mid 1920's technology http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-07-2005, 05:43 AM
Good replies from TAGERT and Pirschjaeger.

Still curious about about the Beaufighter, though. I know it proved it's offensive capabilities, but what about defending the ol' homeland from Herman's hordes? Would it have been up to the job?

Kocur_
08-07-2005, 05:57 AM
Beau would be a good bombers destroyer with its firepower. We must remember though that its 4 x 20mm were fed from 60 rds drums. The gunner had to change those magazines manually.

If we take what-if Beau in RL scenario with 109 as primary LW fighter: well I see Beau's falling often, much like Bf-110 vs single engined RAF fighters.
If we take what-if Beaus vs what-if Bf-110 primary LW fighter it gets interesting, much in favour of Beau's in fact. Bf-110 even for a two engined fighter was clumsy as hell! On one occasion Coastal Command (IIRC) B-17 was able to outmanouver Bf-110 in meanig that Bf-110 was unable to keep firing solution.

Aaron_GT
08-07-2005, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We must remember though that its 4 x 20mm were fed from 60 rds drums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only in the first versions. These were soon changed for belt fed guns. (Sadly our Mk. 21 in the game has less than half the ammo it should have - it should have 283 rounds/gun).

In any case if the Spitfire had been shelved it might have meant that the Whirlwind might have received the correct engines (Merlins) and given the RAF something akin to a P38 in 1940/1.

Aaron_GT
08-07-2005, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On one occasion Coastal Command (IIRC) B-17 was able to outmanouver Bf-110 in meanig that Bf-110 was unable to keep firing solution. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Bf-110 was much more maneouverable than a B17. Moving around to make it difficult for it to be hit does not mean that the B17 was more maneouverable. Some 4 engined heavies were surprisingly nimble, though, but the B17 was no Stirling.

HotelBushranger
08-07-2005, 07:03 AM
Yeah ^ The Whirlwinds original engines (**** I forgot, wheres that book....) were less than adequate, but if they had Merlins that plane would have won the war. Be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kocur_
08-07-2005, 07:09 AM
Aaron_GT Posted Sun August 07 2005 06:00

"quote:
On one occasion Coastal Command (IIRC) B-17 was able to outmanouver Bf-110 in meanig that Bf-110 was unable to keep firing solution.


The Bf-110 was much more maneouverable than a B17. Moving around to make it difficult for it to be hit does not mean that the B17 was more maneouverable. Some 4 engined heavies were surprisingly nimble, though, but the B17 was no Stirling."

Undoublty! Thats why I wrote (or inteNded to) "in meaning".

Kocur_
08-07-2005, 07:11 AM
HotelBushranger Posted Sun August 07 2005 06:03
Yeah ^ The Whirlwinds original engines (**** I forgot, wheres that book....) were less than adequate, but if they had Merlins that plane would have won the war. Be sure"

RR Peregrine?

Whirlwind with Merlins..., bah! Griffons, mhmmmm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
uuuuh I LIKE Whirlwind

Low_Flyer_MkII
08-07-2005, 07:38 AM
Mmmmm...Whirlwind in this sim, we could - oh, hang on, been there before.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/Screensignew.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyhow, the Whirly would certainly have been an option in a world without Spitfires, the Beau might have been another. Any more out there?

Friendly_flyer
08-07-2005, 07:52 AM
Assuming the RAF had managed to get the Beau operational in time, we would have a very interesting scenario on our hand:

The Western front would turn out quite differently. While the battle of France would have been fought much as it was, but the Luftwaffe would have been met by heavy bomber-destroyers (the Beau) escorted by Hurricanes during BoB. The 110s would then probably be engaged in "destroyer-destroyer missions", with 109s and Hurricanes dancing in the sky above and behind them.

Whenever the heavy Beaus had broken through (which probably would happened quite often, the Beaus being fast and sturdy planes), their 20mm‚‚ā¨ôs would wreak havoc among the Heinkels and Dorniers.

A question is whether the Beaus could be replaced at the same speed as the Spitfires. They are larger planes with a lot more components in them, and shooting down a Beau could get two airmen killed, as opposed to one in the Spit. The question is whether the superior firepower of the Beau would be able to make up for the by necessity lesser planes the RAF would be able to field.

I think I will have a go at this in the full mission generator‚‚ā¨¬¶

John_Stag
08-07-2005, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
...ehm...words in brackets in above drawnings descriptions are Polish for "project, reconstruction"...ehm... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So if there were no Spits, RAF would be just behing VVS (Yaks) in having basic fighter of most obsolete, mid 1920's technology http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're saying that the image shown above is hypothetical, it isn't. A Griffon-engined Hurricane was tested. While obviously there was a serious performance increase, the advantage wasn't enough to make the old girl a match for the more refined designs which were coming into existance. So the Griffons were put in Spitfires, and the Hurricane's immediate decendant the Typhoon, got the Napier Sabre.

wayno7777
08-07-2005, 11:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Stag:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe a foot or 18 inches, the Hurri was stable. Probably no need for the fin add....
The Tiffie and Tempest were the logical evolution and look at their fin development...

Kocur_
08-08-2005, 12:31 AM
John_Stag Posted Sun August 07 2005 22:31

"quote:
Originally posted by Kocur_:
...ehm...words in brackets in above drawnings descriptions are Polish for "project, reconstruction"...ehm...

So if there were no Spits, RAF would be just behing VVS (Yaks) in having basic fighter of most obsolete, mid 1920's technology


If you're saying that the image shown above is hypothetical, it isn't. A Griffon-engined Hurricane was tested."


I dont know if it is hypothetical or not, Im saying what is written in those drawnings descripions.

I belive Griffon Hurricane was tested with no problem. And it was a wise decision not to go further. Hurricane's airframe was obsolete in terms of technology, couldnt stand speeds which semi monocoque airframes can stand (fabric and plywood on fuselage, covering welded framework inside).