PDA

View Full Version : Lead Pursuit / High Deflection shot question (Full Cockpit)



funkster319
02-13-2009, 04:45 AM
Further to watching a dogfight episode, a topic come up that got me thinking about a postion I am strugling with.

When trying to perform a hign deflection shot in lead pursuit turn / climb. How do you judge the shot when the bandit disappears beneath your nose?

The guy in the dogfight episode I think (Confused) mentioned that in a lead turn he would climb slightly slightly to position the bandits plane of motion off to the side of his nose (visble quarter) then go upright, pull up,match the bandits Plane of motion and fire.

Have I got this correct?

Any advise on performing these knids of shots?

Cheers guys /gals for any help in advance.

funkster319
02-13-2009, 04:45 AM
Further to watching a dogfight episode, a topic come up that got me thinking about a postion I am strugling with.

When trying to perform a hign deflection shot in lead pursuit turn / climb. How do you judge the shot when the bandit disappears beneath your nose?

The guy in the dogfight episode I think (Confused) mentioned that in a lead turn he would climb slightly slightly to position the bandits plane of motion off to the side of his nose (visble quarter) then go upright, pull up,match the bandits Plane of motion and fire.

Have I got this correct?

Any advise on performing these knids of shots?

Cheers guys /gals for any help in advance.

tagTaken2
02-13-2009, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
Further to watching a dogfight episode, a topic come up that got me thinking about a postion I am strugling with.

When trying to perform a hign deflection shot in lead pursuit turn / climb. How do you judge the shot when the bandit disappears beneath your nose?

The guy in the dogfight episode I think (Confused) mentioned that in a lead turn he would climb slightly slightly to position the bandits plane of motion off to the side of his nose (visble quarter) then go upright, pull up,match the bandits Plane of motion and fire.

Have I got this correct?

Any advise on performing these knids of shots?

Cheers guys /gals for any help in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apart from recommending spellcheck, anytime that you shoot without seeing the bandit is guesswork. Having 6d0f (see mods and TrackIR) is a bonus, but you'd have to be quite close and sure that the bandit is moving in that plane to shoot. There's obviously a difference b/w real life (when people were more likely to spray and pray- don't forget that you're watching the survivors, and the lucky) and a game.

All the advice I can offer is get close. Then get closer, then shoot. Unless you're desperate, don't try and be clever.

funkster319
02-13-2009, 04:59 AM
SpellCheck - whatever do you mean ! lol

I got TIR and understand about postioning etc Never hurts to be prepared.

This is a question about a specific type of shot - thus the title.

GIAP.Shura
02-13-2009, 05:32 AM
Don't worry, Obi Wan will tell you how to do it at the critical moment.

M_Gunz
02-13-2009, 07:58 AM
When your nose is going up or around faster than the target start shooting when he goes under but hold fire a little while to
swing the fire over the target. MAKE A TRACK doing this in practice and play it back to check for effect, you will know more.
It is like swinging a shotgun through a target, that's what some old BoB pilots have said in interview.

Once the nose is over the target though you won't see some course changes he may make though in a turnfight what's he gonna do?
If he goes to the side you will see and if he doesn't see just where you are he probably won't loosen his turn much but who can
tell? Sweeping fire from behind up to front, he won't see tracers before he hears hits, if he hears those at all.

That's some option for pursuit flying case. If you yoyo across his path then you can often get a clearer view but more snap
shooting at deflection than sustained fire. It's your ammo, tracks as feedback will tell you what works best for you.

funkster319
02-13-2009, 08:03 AM
Cheers GUNS just the kinda advice I was looking for - as always helpful.

Cheers mate ~s~

K_Freddie
02-13-2009, 12:36 PM
This (11MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/P38Me109Z_SloMo.avi) will give you an idea.

Tried to do a guncam effect from a fullpit online track, but anyway the idea is...
You line your nose up at the target, then pull futher (target dissapears behind engine) until the angle feels right.
Then fire away, while easing up on the stick.

This will concentrate your fire along a short line, that you hope the target will fly through.
Got it right here on the 2nd and 3rd shot.

HayateAce
02-13-2009, 01:11 PM
Didn't read the others' advice. But in short, experience.

Build up experience in general, then you'll need specific experience in various aircraft. Timing is the key, then outguessing where that bogey is headed.

Ba5tard5word
02-13-2009, 02:27 PM
Yeah each plane's gun placement and turn speed is different so it just requires practice with each plane and some guesswork.

If I try flying a plane I'm not used to I will fail badly at deflection shots, but after flying several missions I slowly get better at it.

The P-38 really demands it especially against zippy little Japanese planes--you can't turn with them, so when they break to the left or right you have to pray and make a good deflection shot.

Xiolablu3
02-13-2009, 03:59 PM
Dont be afraid to try a shot even when the bandit disapears under your nose.

In the Fw190 we often have to shoot even when you cant see the bandit.

SImply track him and then pull lead trying to estimate where he is under your panel and fire. You have enough ammo in the 190 to try a few of these 'blind' shots. Also the spray from the 6 guns helps in these instances more than a nose mounted 'more accurate' gun. The spray from 6 guns converging helps and gives you more chance to hit if you understand me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
02-13-2009, 04:00 PM
If he's staying in a steady curve then imagine he is riding the inside of a cylinder. If you raise up or drop a bit keeping
him above and then to the side of your nose then your path from above will go inside his and when you cross back over he
will appear to be crossing your sight from the side and a bit over your nose. You will get less hits but better vis on aiming.
You don't actually follow the inside of the cylinder but you're both turning the same direction and it's easier to think of
that way, you zig-zagging along behind him on a flat road that circles on itself.

When you raise, you slow down and your turn radius shrinks. If you drop then your G's will be less and even though you speed
up you can turn a bit better. Crossing back over for either gets some benefit from the other way. If you're starting from
slow then dropping first works better, or if the target is gaining that's a way to cut inside while gaining speed. If you're
starting fast or gaining too fast then go high, rudder up a little while banking more to keep him in view and you will slow
which you get back when you drop to shoot.

If he wises up then you'll be in a turning scissors kind of thing but still with you starting behind.
Hard steady turns are for dweebs anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

horseback
02-13-2009, 05:18 PM
You should bear in mind that every aircraft in the game has a different set of guns and each gun has a different rate of fire and muzzle velocity modeled. Switching from say, a FW-190 to a Yak can be traumatic at first.

Also, a lot of the rules cited above go out the window if you're playing the AI instead of human opponents. The AI program is aware of the moment your view of your intended target is obscured, and will use that knowlege to make a radical change of direction with a speed no human can match. With the AI, you will generally be better off with a close-in shot immediately after he passes under your nose or just keeping him in sight and gunning him down when he crosses your pipper.

cheers

horseback

funkster319
02-14-2009, 05:06 AM
Thanks guys some good advice especially appreciate KFreddie and MGUNS contribution - great stuff.

Gonna give it a whirl and hopefully improve that part of my game. As I said intially its just another tool for the box and every bit of knowledge helps http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gotta to find me a good uk based squad soon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

jamesblonde1979
02-15-2009, 09:25 AM
Hi funkster,

As you will have noticed there are no magic death rays in this game. Shooting at a bandit under you nose requires a large amount of luck. The best shots are able to anitcipate the flightpath of their bandit and calculate lead without needing to see the target all the time whilst most of the rest of us spray and pray.

Don't be disheartened if you bang away and never hit a sausage, just try to keep you target in sight until you are sure of where he is going before you pull lead and open fire. Look for patterns in his behaviour and exploit them if you can.

M_Gunz
02-15-2009, 02:19 PM
Back in 99 I had read an article with a block quote from Erich Hartmann. His attack method was first a fast oblique approach
to a point off to the side of the target, one of the wings. When off that wingtip and close, 50m, would execute "a rude turn"
into the target and trigger off shots at point blank while still turning and come out behind the target crossing his path at
a hard angle then keep on going hit or miss. Mostly it worked.
I first tried it in EAW and after a few crashes began to get it right once in a while. I had to learn not to aim. If you take
time to aim then you will ram. It's a matter of timing the trigger, very short pause and 1/4 second to limit the wasted ammo.

Pretty much a nose gun, the bigger the better, is called for with this kind of up-close approach. I'm happy to say that it does
work from farther out though not as well but can work with wing guns at all that way, the deflection angle will always be "up"
from the pipper though off to the side a bit. It's also much less ram-prone and easier to view in the limited FOV of sims.

Jaws2002
02-15-2009, 05:20 PM
Do some tests and record a track. Play the track in both, locked pit and wonder woman view. You'll see exactly by how much you missed. Then try again and again, checking the tracks in WW view. It will help.

M_Gunz
02-15-2009, 06:33 PM
If you make full tracks you can run them with arcade=1 in conf.ini, pause whenever your plane starts to fire then POV to the
target and see from close up your hits and misses at 1/4 speed. Track review is a revelation, hey Jaws?

Sports coaches do it and the athletes do get better quicker.

Jaws2002
02-15-2009, 11:33 PM
Yeah.
Tracks are really good after action debriefing. Sometimes I replay some online full reall tracks and I notice some really obvious things. Like... a mosquito passing 100 meters in front of my FW-190, while I'm watching a dot some ten km away, at three o'clock http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Henkie327
02-15-2009, 11:52 PM
1. Pull lead
2. squeeze the trigger and hold it
3. gradually ease up on the pull and let the bandit fly through the spray of bullets.
4. watch the result and repeat 1 to 4 as nescessary

Feathered_IV
02-16-2009, 06:51 AM
Very important - If at all possible, make sure your wings are parallel to your opponents line of flight when taking a high angle deflection shot. It will maximise your chances of a hit.