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shc89
02-01-2010, 04:46 PM
I just started flying almost exclusively with a Spitfire since it's one of the planes I always wanted to master.I was interested in some general dogfighting tactics with Spitfire. What to do and what by all means not to do. I usually used it for turn and burn but when the Zero comes there's not much you can do that way, unless you get your speed high. What I was always interested is are some general rules on how to fight some of the most common Spitfires adversaries like 109 or 190. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

shc89
02-01-2010, 04:46 PM
I just started flying almost exclusively with a Spitfire since it's one of the planes I always wanted to master.I was interested in some general dogfighting tactics with Spitfire. What to do and what by all means not to do. I usually used it for turn and burn but when the Zero comes there's not much you can do that way, unless you get your speed high. What I was always interested is are some general rules on how to fight some of the most common Spitfires adversaries like 109 or 190. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

TinyTim
02-01-2010, 04:54 PM
Hop online and fly against it (in a 109/190/A6Ms...).

idonno
02-01-2010, 04:55 PM
"I was interested in some general dogfighting tactics with Spitfire."

On-line or off-line?

shc89
02-01-2010, 05:01 PM
Online ofcourse...

Jumoschwanz
02-01-2010, 06:04 PM
All you have to worry about is experience. Fly the Spit a lot until you get better. That is not my idea, Chuck Yeager is the one who said a more experienced pilot will whip you no matter what you are flying, so the type of aircraft is not too big a deal.

If you are flying against Zeros, there is no rule set in stone because you may be below them, co-alt with them or above them. There may be one of them and they may be novices or experts, so those alone give you a half-dozen different ways to fly, then you can add another half dozen if you change them from zeroes to bf109s!

Better watch my Hi-def videos here:

http://www.youtube.com/profile...z#p/u/10/ynqsR0fUitM (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#p/u/10/ynqsR0fUitM)

There is one in which I fly a SpitV vs. two 109s. I don't really follow any classic rules, as they are above me when I attack them, but I still come out on top because they screw up...

M_Gunz
02-01-2010, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
I just started flying almost exclusively with a Spitfire since it's one of the planes I always wanted to master.I was interested in some general dogfighting tactics with Spitfire. What to do and what by all means not to do. I usually used it for turn and burn but when the Zero comes there's not much you can do that way, unless you get your speed high. What I was always interested is are some general rules on how to fight some of the most common Spitfires adversaries like 109 or 190. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which Spitfire/Zero/109/190? The differences are great enough to change your tactics.
Get yourself a copy of IL2Compare if you need a general idea as a good starting point.

Tactics to use depend on relative differences between planes, not always the same way in the same plane.
How to fly a SpitVB vs an A6M2 is different than a SpitVIII vs A6M2 for instance, let alone A5M4....

There is also the question of how well you fly the Spitfire and how well the other flies whatever it is.
That's part of why you will get many different answers, comparative abilities and experiences vary widely.

trashcanUK
02-01-2010, 06:43 PM
Rule number 1: Ignore all the "you are a noob" brigade.
Rule number 2: Yes, the Spitty turns well but that is the LAST resort. She is a great energy fighter.
Rule number 3: Stay trimmed, and keep the boost and RPM within limits.
Rule number 4: Fly between the pure vertical and the pure horizontal. For example chantelle rather than immelman.
Rule number 5: You have less ammo than the 109/190 so make your shots count.
Rule number 6: Hold your head up high, you are flying the greatest aeroplane ever invented by mankind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

trashcanUK
02-01-2010, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">http://www.youtube.com/profile...z#p/u/10/ynqsR0fUitM

There is one in which I fly a SpitV vs. two 109s. I don't really follow any classic rules, as they are above me when I attack them, but I still come out on top because they screw up... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice shooting but Ouch!!!! i'm guessing that merlin engine won't be used again ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Woke_Up_Dead
02-01-2010, 07:00 PM
It's true what M_Gunz says about different tactics vs different opponents, but there is one general rule that I try to keep in mind when flying in or against a Spit: the longer the fight goes the better the Spit does (with a few exceptions like most Zeros), particularly if the Spit's opponent does not force him to roll and change direction. If you can get your opponent into a simple, "both guys chasing each other's tail while turning in one direction" type of fight, then eventually you will probably come out on top. I think the plane was designed for being good in long, sustained turns.

Jumoschwanz
02-01-2010, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trashcanUK:
Nice shooting but Ouch!!!! i'm guessing that merlin engine won't be used again ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, when I am flying back to base the engine is not smoking, it did not overheat and sounds the same as before the fight, that is why I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.....


I practice doing head-ons with AI all the time at different altitudes, and believe it or not, like everything else in this sim you can learn to engage in a head on and come out unscathed.....

In the Spit vs. a 109f2 your chances are always going to be very good for more than one reason.

First, most don't know it but the British 20mm cannons and machine guns both have 300 meters more range than their axis counterparts! So in a head-on you can fire from a distance, hit and get out of the way of the BF109 before it's fire ever gets to you.

Next, in the Spit you are firing at the 109f2 with six very effective guns, while the 109f2 is firing at you with one effective gun. the 109f2 does have two maching guns in addition to it's single 15mm cannon, but they are almost the weakest guns in IL2 and you don't have to worry about them too much, so in effect you have at least twice, and probably more like four times the chance to do critical damage to the 109f2 as it has to disable you.

Lastly, if you are a very good pilot and shot, you are going to win a gunfight like this just as surely as you would a quick-draw duel in the old-west.....

FYI, fifty cal. guns in this sim have 700 meters more range than axis cannons and guns.

Even though this is true, Online I have made head-on shots at allied aircraft while in a 109 or 190, and veered out of the way before the fifty cals even got as far as my aircraft, simply because the allied pilot was not a good enough shot to know how soon he could have pulled the trigger, and probably could not have made that long a shot anyway....

VW-IceFire
02-01-2010, 09:57 PM
If you can find a server with this... try flying a Spitfire LF.Vb against whatever the opposition is. This will teach you to:

1) Stay within your best altitudes.

2) Maximize your energy potential and not waste energy on turns when you don't have to.

When the Spitfire was first added only the Mark V was available and the IX was "coming soon". I learned a lot about how to fly a Spitfire well before the IX came out and everyone started flying them.

shc89
02-02-2010, 04:14 AM
I know that a lot has to be learned through flying itself but sometimes it's easier to ask or look for something than to learn it the hard way.

IceFire,
I'll try your advice.

Trashcan,
regarding the rule 4, what's the reason behind that? I've seen some people doing it and it was very effective. Very hard to judge the lag needed to stay on someones tail.

Zero is one adversary plane that made me research Spitfire tactics further. I was used to turn fighting at corner speed when flying a Spit, but against the Zero it proved just a matter of time when he gets on my tail. So I looked it up on the net and found that first pilots that encountered the Zero with a Spit learned it the hard way. Later, high speed, high G turning at a minimum of 400kph proved useful against the Zero. How applicable is that in the game ?

Which version would you advise me to use generally. I see most people use the MKIX 25lbs or the MKIXe. What's the difference between those two late Spitfires and how do the IX series compare to VIII?
Thanks you all for answers.

Erkki_M
02-02-2010, 04:52 AM
The Spitfire is a very potential plane for multiple roles. It has its superb features as well as limitations, pros and cons, just like any other fighter. In an enviroment closer to where aircraft were used in WW2 than a typical IL-2 air quake server, the Spitfire is anything but a "noob plane".


Your typical opponents are Bf109 and FW190. Now the 109. Your advantages are, typically, sustained turn at all speeds(especially high and medium speeds) and meneuverability at at least low speeds. Spitfire VIII/XI also climbs as good or slightly better than G2 and G6(not AS) that they might face. Be aware that you are slower or nearly as fast as every one of them at all altitudes, however, at higher altitudes the speed gap is smaller. Lower top speed in this case also means lower cruise speed, and you are likely to get engage with less E than the enemy(ies), and this is further emphasized with the 109s as they also have greater sustained climb. The Spit turns very well, and while it might sound a good idea to use its turn against the 109s and especially 190s, your enemy is also aware of your abilities. Dont turn unless you have to, ie. you have someone in guns range or closing in quick. It is always extremely important to have the initial advantage in both E and position.

If YOU are above the enemy, its the standard hit & run tactic, but watch out for incoming bogies. The worst mistake you can do is to start chasing planes that dive away or you know that have noticed you: they will drag your energy low, and while the plane in your gunsight is not a real threat, the 2 other guys his vectoring in are. You dont want to get dragged low and right next to the 109s' base just to get gang banged, instead, always when you can, use the 109s' own tactic: climb, conserve E and hit unsuspecting victims away from their friends. use the turn climb at low speeds against a 109 climbing at you, as that will drop his speed below his best climbing speed very quickly, and you will have the advantage in everything, now in altitude as well, the slower you fly. Works best with a friend, that nails any 109s trying to cut your climb. As the underdog, typical situation where 109s BnZ Spitfires, work as a team. It is tempting to turn when you have someone behind you, especially knowing that you turn better, but keep dragging their energy lower, and give him small angles while a friend of yours prepares to hit him once the 109 gets close enough, you turn and 109 is forced to pull up in front of your wingman.

FW190 is a bit different opponent. Your advantages are in low to medium speed acceleration, turn and climb. I've fought perhaps a thousand matches vs. Spitfire in FW190, and the very worst mistake a Spitfire can do(and which they do quite often), is getting slow. You will have to use more turning against the FW190 because of its speed, but while you climb better than them trying to outclimb, out-E, FW190s while you have arround them is an incredibly bad idea. Remember that the Focke has 4 time's the 109's firepower and much better high-speed initial turn: a 190 can and will be able to maneuver into a firing position and pull/roll the lead at all but the lowest speeds. What you have to do is to force him to extend from you and climb where they cant reach you immediately. Again its easier with a couple of friends, when you can simply dive and turn gently before the break turn, the FW190 cant pull up because of your wingman behind him and most likely closing, hes left with diving away or extending horisontally. Either way, you are now free to use your superior climb and engage further fights from a superior position.


Shortly, fly it like you flew a 109, but remember that you typically cant catch the enemy in level flight or sustained climb, but that you retain energy and turn better. Any prolonged maneuvering is good for you and less good to whatever you face, as long as you remember to use the turning ability you have right, instead of leaning on it only. Because that, doing nothing but turn, is one of the worst tactical mistakes you can do, and will lead almost without an exception, in every aircraft, into a KIA. (and Spit jocks whining how FW190 is uber). If you expect to engage enemy from superior position, set guns convergence ranges somewhere around 150m(enemy's, be it 109 or 190, wingspan is 3/4 of the gunsight), 200(half the gunsight) is better when you are the underdog and typical firing positions are at longer distances.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Which version would you advise me to use generally. I see most people use the MKIX 25lbs or the MKIXe. What's the difference between those two late Spitfires and how do the IX series compare to VIII?
Thanks you all for answers.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK the VIII is, when it comes to top speed, max sustained climb and turning, identical to the IX, but has a bigger fuel tank and even better energy retention(or it _feels_ to have http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

The Spitfire IXc 25lbs is for most missions one can imagine the very best Spitfire. The HX IXe is better above 6000m though, but below that the 25lbs is undoubtly the best Spit. And also the most rare(havent seen one since... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) apart from the air quake servers. The tips I have above apply mostly to more realistic servers only with at least no exterior views and limited icons, because nearly completely different rules apply in a game where people have unnaturally good or even perfect situational awareness(know where others are and what doing even hundreds of kilometers away) that completely alter the tactics one has to sue as well as preferred qualities of a plane.

trashcanUK
02-02-2010, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Trashcan,
regarding the rule 4, what's the reason behind that? I've seen some people doing it and it was very effective. Very hard to judge the lag needed to stay on someones tail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it is to do with the aerodynamics of the Spitfire wing versus the 109s. I first tried it having seen an interview with Bob Doe (an RAF BoB Spitfire pilot) where he said that when a 109 did a split-S, (as they did) he would make a sweeping left hand descending turn and invariable end up saddled up on the 109s tail.
I've tried it and it works in IL2, testament to the games modelling.

As others have said, try flying the Zeke \ Zero and you will see that its controls are hopeless over 400 Kmh so keep the fight fast and you'll be ok.

Jumoschwanz, my apologies, it's just that you had that Merlin screaming with over boost and rpms at 3000+. I guess i just have sensitives earshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yes, in game no problem but in R/L you would be smelling a cooking engine. No offense meant, i enjoyed watching you fight those 109s. I am hoping that SoW will have more sophisticated CEM, it's a bit crude in IL2 but understandable given tha age of the game.

K_Freddie
02-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Don't get slow with the rotary's as the in-lines are more vicious and harder to control.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GBrutus
02-03-2010, 03:03 PM
When did the Fokker Eindecker sneak into the game then, Freddie? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

shc89
02-03-2010, 04:23 PM
Thanks a lot for the help, especially Erkki. What I think I should minimize is instantaneous turning with a spit, keep sustained turning more. I usually end up in a downward two circle fight, maintaining my corner speed but losing E in form of altitude. Works often, but also leaves me often in vulnerable position.

Trashcan,
you don't have a link to that interview anymore, dont you ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

trashcanUK
02-03-2010, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What I think I should minimize is instantaneous turning with a spit, keep sustained turning more </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Trashcan,
you don't have a link to that interview anymore, dont you ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I did a search on youtube but i could not find it. iirc it was a BBC series on the Battle of Britain.

For the record, Bob Doe shot down 10 x 109s during the Battle of Britain as well as a few bombers.
In his words .. "I wasn't fighting for the King, I was fighting for me Mum - I didn't want them over here"

A true hero imho, as were all "The Few". They are the reason I can make this post.

K_Freddie
02-04-2010, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GBrutus:
When did the Fokker Eindecker sneak into the game then, Freddie? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I better not pull out the charts on that one, showing how it can outturn a spit 2-to-1, Turns on a tickey, and even flies backwards with a strong wind. All the spit jocks will be shouting OverMod, Uber-Fokker again...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GBrutus
02-04-2010, 11:09 AM
'The Scourge of the Uber-Fokkers' - has a ring to it, doesn't it?

shc89
02-04-2010, 11:57 AM
Hey Trashcan, how you described a documentary rang a bell. Might it be the Spitfire Ace documentary ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVnV0pm5TA

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

trashcanUK
02-04-2010, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hey Trashcan, how you described a documentary rang a bell. Might it be the Spitfire Ace documentary ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVnV0pm5TA

Smile </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did search this great series sch89 but didn't find the specific quote about the split S from Bob Doe but you can see what a man he was. Like all of them...
Ok, I'll apologise in advance for my rant but ....
As a Brit I get annoyed at how the Spitfire is disrespected in the IL2 online world.
This beautiful fighter and those young men were the paper thin blue line that saved my country and dare I say the democratic world from enslavement.
Some of you seem to forget that in May 1940 Britain stood alone and in a seemingly hopeless situation .... a certain gentleman from a respected US family being one of the worst of the defeatist.
We do very little well in Britain but by god we can fight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rant over http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DKoor
02-04-2010, 07:34 PM
Spitfire tactic?

Take off, seek and destroy.
Land.

Very fun.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

M_Gunz
02-04-2010, 08:02 PM
Bob Doe (seen him on some good BoB videos) did that maneuver to keep positive G's on the carb while
trying to follow a fuel-injected 109 in a dive. If he just nosed down the engine might quit and for
sure would run like it was about to long enough to turn his prop into a brake.

jamesblonde1979
02-05-2010, 11:07 AM
flaps on a slider axis ftw.

trashcanUK
02-06-2010, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Bob Doe (seen him on some good BoB videos) did that maneuver to keep positive G's on the carb while
trying to follow a fuel-injected 109 in a dive. If he just nosed down the engine might quit and for
sure would run like it was about to long enough to turn his prop into a brake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent point M_Gunz, I would also add the roll rate of the Spitty at that time was poor compared to the 109.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">flaps on a slider axis ftw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
for axis pilots yes, but flaps on a Spitfire are for landing only imho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jumoschwanz
02-06-2010, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trashcanUK:
Jumoschwanz, my apologies, it's just that you had that Merlin screaming with over boost and rpms at 3000+. I guess i just have sensitives earshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yes, in game no problem but in R/L you would be smelling a cooking engine. No offense meant, i enjoyed watching you fight those 109s. I am hoping that SoW will have more sophisticated CEM, it's a bit crude in IL2 but understandable given tha age of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The main thing in this sim is that when the engine says it is overheating you have to throttle back because you are only given so many minutes of overheating before your engine is fried. In most aircraft in this sim I never run 100% prop pitch, I always use 85%-90% in an aircraft with manual pitch control. This really does keep the engine from overheating as easily I noticed.

In real life, I have a friend who flew out of England in WWII and he was a trained by the military as an aircraft mechanic. He said that if an aircraft came back from a mission that had used War Emergency Power, where the wire was broken by throttle lever to let it go into that state, then that was it for that engine, it was in for an overhaul.

I have cooked the engine of my aircraft flying this sim before. Usually it will be on purpose though, if I am a short distance from home base or I know that it will allow me to out-run a pursuer and get home in one piece.

Not too long ago I was flying online in what was basically a duel server. I flew early 109s, the E4 and F4 vs. the other guy in his La-7 and F4u-C. He told me that "you fly just like so and so" because whenever he attacked me I would chop the throttle or turn sharp until he overshot me so I could then take a shot at him.

Well, it was not that I was flying like anyone else at all, it was just that when you fly against an opponent that has 100-150km/hr top speed on you there is a right way to do it and there are things you HAVE to do so you are either not shot down or successful.

Knowing what to do with what you have at what time in any situation is a lot more valuable than being in any particular aircraft.

An Ace will find an advantage in having a higher performance aircraft, but a novice will just waste what is in his hands and it will make little difference for him.
The novice can be in a jet and the ace in a biplane and the ace will either escape or shoot him down.

shc89
02-07-2010, 05:45 PM
I just tried fighting a A6M5 Zero with a Spitfire MK IX 25 lbs. I've set it on ace difficulty. Knowing that a Zero has a better turn rate I tried to use Spitfire's advantage over it - speed. I tried to keep the speed slightly above 400kph for most of the time, even when turning. Sometimes I get him, but many times he get's on my six. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong or opponents on ace difficulty are faster.

And btw, here's the article regarding Spitfire tactics against the zero. A pretty interesting read.

http://www.acepilots.com/discu...s/spitfire_zero.html (http://www.acepilots.com/discussions/spitfire_zero.html)

M_Gunz
02-07-2010, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
I just tried fighting a A6M5 Zero with a Spitfire MK IX 25 lbs. I've set it on ace difficulty. Knowing that a Zero has a better turn rate I tried to use Spitfire's advantage over it - speed. I tried to keep the speed slightly above 400kph for most of the time, even when turning. Sometimes I get him, but many times he get's on my six. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong or opponents on ace difficulty are faster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he gets behind you but not close then do a shallow dive to unload and gain speed asap. You want to fly a tilted circle
but not a circle since at the low end the path radius is longer than at the high end. You want to fly this for speed but
also to gain angle and energy over the Zero. The operative words are Speed Margin, the Steroid-Spitfire must use energy
tactics against that Zero.

I took a look at the Spit-LF-25 vs A6M5b on IL2C and right there... keep the speed as much above 400 as possible. That
takes a big, fast loop that has you always above his sights when near guns range at least. If he fails to keep up with
you then your tilted-egg-shape-path tops out above his, you zoom more to slow, roll to see him pass underneath for a
reversal; you with the initiative and at an advantage.

jamesblonde1979
02-07-2010, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trashcanUK:
for axis pilots yes, but flaps on a Spitfire are for landing only imho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you aren't using the aircraft to its maximum potential.

But it's a Spitfire and one rarely has to anyway.

Jumoschwanz
02-07-2010, 11:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
I just tried fighting a A6M5 Zero with a Spitfire MK IX 25 lbs. I've set it on ace difficulty. Knowing that a Zero has a better turn rate I tried to use Spitfire's advantage over it - speed. ] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vs. ace AI you don't have to do anything but turn around with them, stay out of the way of their shots and shoot them.

IN real life a Spit pilot might want to use the superior speed of his aircraft, or you would want to use it online vs. a good human opponent, but vs. AI you can just turn with them and blow them out of the sky.

I set a spit25lb. vs. eight ace a6m5bs on the crimea map at 1k meters alt and it was easy to shoot them all down using their AI faults against them.

If you want the track PM me your email and I will send it to you in a zip.

Hey, it was two in the morning......

shc89
02-08-2010, 04:14 PM
I know that in a turn fight against Ace AI it is possible to kill a Zero with a Spit, but against a good human Zero pilot engaging him with a Spit is a suicide. I'm flying against AI solely to test my tactics against a Zero, that I will apply online. Anyway, Jumoschwanz I'll send you my e-mail, it can't hurt to see how you deal with them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz,
what seems to mean a certain death is starting a horizontal turn just after the merge. The Zero easily gets inside my turn circle. What helps is keeping forward movement for some time to get some spacing and then turning towards him.

M_Gunz
02-08-2010, 04:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
what seems to mean a certain death is starting a horizontal turn just after the merge. The Zero easily gets inside my turn circle. What helps is keeping forward movement for some time to get some spacing and then turning towards him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes in that matchup the Spit is best used as an energy-fighter. Hard moves except for a possible killing move
are right out of the picture, and don't get suckered into blowing your energy and not achieving at least a
crippling move. It's better to let the fight go another few moves that notch you up higher and get the shot
without giving any of your advantage up.

Energy fighter should be higher or faster or both than the target and still stay behind. You don't have to
follow the target, just have him in your aim once in a while and try to make him turn hard whether you
shoot or not. Making him blow sped or alt is a step towards your victory, you can tap him without a shot
and if you can get him to crash then in my book that "maneuver kill" is better than a shoot-down.

What you need to work on is vertical maneuvers. Sustained climb is worth zip to the target if you are 20+kph
faster and co-alt, for example. A 10kph speed advantage going into a zoom makes a real difference. It doesn't
have to be a straight up zoom, just any time you are rising faster than you can sustain it is a zoom even if
the angle of climb is 10 degrees. With much greater speed you can zoom up in a few seconds what he needs 4x
as long to sustained-climb.

On that merge, if you are the faster one then pull up in a high loop that he can't match if he tries. You
might even be able to get him if he runs, that Spit is what 20% faster?

Fun with speed and the vertical. You're flying along at warp-5 and you want to change direction quick.
So you get the nose up and watch your speed drop to sub-light where you can turn inside Earth orbit and
do so while going over the top where gravity even helps pull you around back at the Klingon Garbage Scow,
errrr, Zero.
Most of your starting energy is conserved in the height gain you've made. The hard-over loop does blow
some speed/energy but that's only a fraction of what you had not saved, all of which you get back when
you dive back down. With the engine constantly adding to your state, you might come out just as fast or
faster than when you started -- if you started at maximum speed then you probably won't but hey, compared
to a hard speed-losing flat turn you should always do better and gain the advantage.
Just remember to bank your energy as height to slow down to best turn speed, crank the turn using gravity
to assist, and drop to regain the speed. Try never to pull hard when you're going really fast, look for
alternative moves to put you in the shooting position instead.

Take Your Time. Greed (for quick kills) is your biggest enemy once you learn to fly right. Well, okay,
your biggest enemy is a better pilot ready to shoot you down with his mate(s) there with him but Greed
in yourself is something you have more control over.

freakvollder
02-09-2010, 11:44 AM
I've found this for the Spit IX

Flying the Spit IX

Most aircraft require that they be flown in a "Style" in order to be the most successful but the Spit can be flown almost recklessly and still do alright. Typically it is used as TnB fighter though it is at least as equally impressive when used in a BnZ role. Being un the receiving end of a BnZ Spit IX is a simply scary situation that needs to be avoided.

Offensively you should try and always store some energy in speed/altitude for any part of the intial combat. Too many high speed monsters will simply try and run away from you if you can't do a decent job of cornering them and slowing them down a bit. Charging into the middle of a pack of slow enemies is also quite common although typically that will end up as a race to see how many enemy you can shoot down before you are a casualty. High altitude climbs (over 15K) are not required though they seem to be pretty typical for people who aren't confident in their maneuvering/energy management skills. Try and always remember that you may need your last bit of energy in altitude or speed for your own escape. While the Spit IX accelerates pretty well, it also reaches top speed much lower than other typical aircraft you are bound to encounter. A little room to dive and run is advisable rather than fighting only a couple of 100ft off the deck. Try and time your shot opportunities so you only pull enough lead to get your hispanos on target at relatively short ranges. Long range shooting is alright but you don't have a lot of cannon ammunition so you should really pick your opportunities. That's where the .50's can be useful in order to slow someone down by making them maneuver to avoid what can be damaging single .50 cal hits. Snapshots and high deflection should be as easy in the Spit as in any aircraft in the game with good results if the cannons are hitting. Never accept Head-On's unless there are few options, the Spitfire can deal out the damage but not really absorb it. A key to good Spitfire fights is to get a decent merge or to slow the fight down against faster opponents. If you can, try and get the fight slower by climbing rather than diving and you may find you easily nail any of the faster aircraft as they struggle to match you. Also, remember about lag style turns, they can help a Spit force an enemy to maintain his harder turn and bleed speed until such time as the Spit can simply pull in behind a helpless enemy.

Defensively, you need to take care of a Spitfire because they tend to be a little fragile. Don't give up any easy hits and maneuvers like scissors tend not to be all that safe unless you can ensure the enemy doesn't get even a brief snapshot. A single fuel tank and easily punctured radiator can leave a Spit in real trouble from even minor hits. As the Spit is pretty slow at lower altitudes you will usually find enemies trying to catch you from behind. The Spit is an excellent break-turn aircraft and should be able to slip away from most of these attacks. You should always endeavor to make a higher energy (speed) opponent slow down though unless he is in a superior turner (in that case, try and break away and run as he is likely slower than you). Most pilots will constantly try and pull enough lead on your Spit to take a shot but you should in most cases be able to keep them from getting angle while they find themselves slowing rapidly.


Fighting the Spit IX

The Spit IX is probably the most dangerous plane to encounter as it can put up a fight in so many ways and win. At high altitudes it's the best maneuvering and among some of the fastest planes. Down low it is a great turner with good climb and acceleration if not for a bit of a lack of top end speed. You are also bound to see lots of Spitfires, both above and below you so you need to know how to identify them quickly and build a plan on how to deal with them.

Typically it is a good idea to identify a Spit IX from the other Spit models though the dangers are pretty much the same. A Spit V is more likely to get into an extended turn-fight though where a Spit IX may fly in a number of styles. The Spit V has a darker overall paint scheme while the Seafire is more grey. The chances of encountering a Spit I are almost nil. the Spit IX is more likely to use climb/acceleration to defeat you though they all retain some excellent handling at the top of any low speed maneuver.

Offensively, try and slash the Spitfire and not slow down. You can't afford to remain anywhere near the front of a Spit for any period of time as it has the firepower to quickly reduce you to flames even in the toughest aircraft. You must try and maintain your energy through use of smart maneuvering. If you try and play energy games with the Spit you are most likely going to lose unless you know exactly what you are doing. The Spit has very good climb/acceleration and will match any energy you can gain with at least as much. Try and just land hits though, the Spit can be easily disabled by hitting the engine, radiator, or fuel and that might take only a single .50 cal in a lucky place. Almost remain careful of the "Spit-reversal" where a Spit appears to turn 180 degrees without loss of energy. The power, low wingloading, and wing design allow this ability and it can cause great problem unless you can force the Spitfire to have to maintain a high G turn. Always place a floor on your combat altitude and leave enough room to enter a dive in a faster plane in order to accelerate to a higher speed than the Spitfire is capable as an escape option.

Defensively the Spit can be almost impossible to shake from your tail. If you are in one of the clearly superior turners you can maybe avoid him and sucker him into a turn-fight but he may be able to leave at almost any time he wishes. Scissors are not always all that effective either, you have to be very careful. The problem is not in generating the overshoot as most Spit pilots are super aggressive and pull lead constantly (thus causing really bad overshoots frequently). The issue is, once slow from scissors the Spit is still super maneuverable and will simply turn at 100mph and wail on you. The best Spit defense is to always maintain some separation so he can't shoot you and when you get close always have superior energy. Co-Alt/Co-E Spits are simply no fun to face.

A wildcard in this discussion though should include mention of the fact that most Spit pilots you will encounter are very new and use the Spit quite poorly. Even so, they are very dangerous as the Spit allows a pilot to make a lot of mistakes and still win. Be on the lookout though because new pilots tend to fall for maneuvers quite easily and can be defeated. A veteran Spit pilot though can simply be impossible to shake and will let you flail around avoiding him until you run out of options. Then he will pounce and put you in your parachute. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Eow_TK
02-09-2010, 01:56 PM
Another thing with fighting human pilots who are using boom and zoom tactics in their spits, is their limited visibility just below their noses. I've been on both sides of this, where a Mk9 would be diving down on me from behind for example, and if you turn sharply so you're below their nose and then change directions they can't find you in time to shoot on that pass. So just dive under their nose, then change your direction. I learned this from a fight I had against a Bf-109 a couple months ago. It's very hard to keep track of them this way.

TinyTim
02-09-2010, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm flying against AI solely to test my tactics against a Zero, that I will apply online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not trying to discourage you, but this most likely won't bear any fruit. Online and offline are two totally different worlds. You can't apply experience from one to the other.

This is especially true when a plane which is a bad diver comes into equation - which a Zero definitely is. AI cheats, offline he can dive to unimaginable speeds. Real players online can't - their planes will disintegrate at 700kph if they'll try to follow you. On the other side - AI sucks pretty badly when it comes to tight turns. Aces online really do turn a lot better than offline AI does. Third thing is - you can't "hide" from AI. He will see you even if you approach him from low 6 well below his tail. Online pilots can't see you there (on cockpit on no externals servers), but you will very rarely find one flying in a straight line not checking his 6. In a nutshell - there are too many differences between online and offline for any kind of "experience translation".

If you want to gain experience about how to fight a zero online in a spitfire, I'll repeat myself - hop online (you can't do it offline), pick a Zero and fly against Spitfires. Level of skill online these days is high enough for you to learn very fast. Against skilled SpitIX pilots Zero shouldn't stand a chance, especially so with the 25lb monster. SpitMkV and A6M5 seem more evenly matched.

M_Gunz
02-09-2010, 10:58 PM
You _do_ get experience in your plane and how it flies while offline, then you learn about lag online.
If you're going to nothing but ACMs then it's best done offline with no one to bother you.
That gives a person time enough to really look and review what's really going on when they fly, esp
when you record a track of one of those "what just happened?" moments. Might not find out why but at
least you can get a better idea of "whut".

Gunnery learned offline doesn't have the "hit you!" "did not!" aspect of online gunnery. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
So get -really- good offline and you can be passable online where the practice is harder.

Offline is like a local pond or pool, it's not a bad place to learn to swim. Online is like ocean beach.

Erkki_M
02-10-2010, 12:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Gunnery learned offline doesn't have the "hit you!" "did not!" aspect of online gunnery. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
So get -really- good offline and you can be passable online where the practice is harder </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lag and latency play no role in il2 MP - if you hit, its a hit. You can even try this in a private game, unplug web cable, shoot at someone, plug it in again, and he blows up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

However hitting can be harder because the bad guy from China might be bouncing and warping all over the place. Also, it happens pretty often that the the one that gets hit doesnt, in his own game, see nor hear the hit at all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Myself I only use single player to test things, usually guns convergences... About once in a few months.

Gadje
02-10-2010, 03:19 PM
good summary freakvollder.

TheGrunch
02-10-2010, 05:16 PM
It's from the Aces High wiki IIRC. Good site, that, even for Il-2.

M_Gunz
02-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Two words -- dropped packets.
Two more -- server settings.

You can be right behind someone with a load of lag and they see you in front of them.

VW-IceFire
02-10-2010, 09:52 PM
I have to disagree with some of the sentiment here. I practice more offline and fly online only when I have time to. Yes the experiences and the challenges are completely different but what you can do offline is practice... in a way... against yourself. I put myself into scenarios and work on my flying and my gunnery.

Your goal should be first pass kills as often as possible. Against the AI it is easier because they are more predictable but they can be harder because they do some weird things that you won't see people do online. Then again people do weird things that the AI would never do... so it's a mixed bag.

But practicing flight and gunnery offline is never...ever... wasted. It doesn't replace flying online and once you get there you'll wonder what the heck you're doing but it'll be a great start.

BillSwagger
02-11-2010, 12:01 AM
I've found that a good match is the P-40C and the Oscar Ki-43I as an offline practice for fighting against human flown 109s. The Ai doesn't turn as tight with the Oscar but it seems to mimic human flown 109s pretty closely.

TinyTim
02-11-2010, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I have to disagree with some of the sentiment here. I practice more offline and fly online only when I have time to. Yes the experiences and the challenges are completely different but what you can do offline is practice... in a way... against yourself. I put myself into scenarios and work on my flying and my gunnery.

Your goal should be first pass kills as often as possible. Against the AI it is easier because they are more predictable but they can be harder because they do some weird things that you won't see people do online. Then again people do weird things that the AI would never do... so it's a mixed bag.

But practicing flight and gunnery offline is never...ever... wasted. It doesn't replace flying online and once you get there you'll wonder what the heck you're doing but it'll be a great start. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely that flying offline can offer very good training (especially in areas as gunnery, orientation, low visibility landings, carrier landings etc etc).

However I'm still firmly convinced you cannot train specific tactics on the best ways to beat plane A with a plane B offline and apply this experience online, which is, as far as I can see the whole point of this thread according to initial post.

In other words - you can fly with a spitfire versus zero a couple of years offline becoming really adept, but when you'll go online you'll still get your @ss served to you initially.

BillSwagger
02-11-2010, 03:13 AM
The online game doesn't really compare, but if you want to work on target practice and panning/tracking with out the help of padlock or externals, then offline is gonna be the place to do that. What you get out of it depends on how much you challenge yourself. Aside from 1v1, you can also do 5v1 or 10v1 which helped me learn some things. I don't think for a moment i could take on 10 human opponents, but the drill does train for awareness and energy retention techniques. You also develop an eye for when to execute certain maneuvers.

In a live game taking on multiple enemies while not losing the advantage is the name of the game.
TnB normally gets me killed even if I win the first engagement. Its just better to stay fast and pounce at kills from an advantage. Even in a Spitfire i wouldn't slow up for the sake of a turn battle. You slow down to fight, then the faster guy gets you. That's the reality of the online game, and well written offline missions.

In fact, if you haven't tried a 50-100 plane mission that lasts well over an hour then you haven't scratched the surface of the offline game.



Bill

shc89
02-11-2010, 04:32 PM
Great stuff freakvollder!

M_Gunz,
what you described is what I'm mostly doing and some of the things you said I added to it. Still, after the merge, it's hard to get such energy advantage that I can take a shot but the opponent cant. Usually I have higher altitude but when merging again the enemy has a shot opportunity, so the fight usually becomes series of merges with me as the one in a slightly advantageous position. Sometimes, weird things happen, like after the merge the opponent very quickly turns around and is on my six altough we had high combined speed and I had speed advantage at the merge.

What I'm describing is offline quick battle with a Zero on Ace difficulty.

thefruitbat
02-11-2010, 04:41 PM
over the years i've practised shooting offline so much. When i've got 5-10 mins to kill, i'll set myself up me vs two ace ai, seperate groups, and fight just to practice shooting and a bit of SA.

Doesn't matter how good a pilot you are in handling your plane if you can't shoot and hit. You need to be able to take advantage of every killing oportunity you get, because thats where you win dogfights, better to be a great shot than fly pretty imo.

shc89
02-13-2010, 06:37 AM
Looking at the Il-2 Compare 4.07m the Spitfire IX 25 lbs turns faster than most of the Zeros and La-7 ? It doesn't seem to be like that in the game. Is it possible that Il-2 Compare has some unaccurate data, and does anyone know how it's derived?

TheGrunch
02-13-2010, 11:03 AM
It's sustained rather than instantaneous turn rate that is provided in Il-2 Compare. You want to be looking at the lower end of the speed range on those graphs if you're planning on just yanking back the stick and getting into a stallfight.

shc89
02-13-2010, 02:25 PM
Thanks for info, I never get into a stall fight, I either turn instananeous but lose altitude to keep the corner speed or keep it sustained(especially at the deck).

MD_Titus
02-13-2010, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trashcanUK:
Rule number 1: Ignore all the "you are a noob" brigade.
Rule number 2: Yes, the Spitty turns well but that is the LAST resort. She is a great energy fighter.
Rule number 3: Stay trimmed, and keep the boost and RPM within limits.
Rule number 4: Fly between the pure vertical and the pure horizontal. For example chantelle rather than immelman.
Rule number 5: You have less ammo than the 109/190 so make your shots count.
Rule number 6: Hold your head up high, you are flying the greatest aeroplane ever invented by mankind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

post made of truth and win.