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BSS_Vidar
12-02-2006, 01:24 PM
Next weekend the new History Channel series "Dogfight" will be featuring the Hellcat and the Zero.

After seeing what P-51Bs "actually" did to 109G6's in regards to speed and manueverability during mid-1943 in Bud Andersons accounts, I think this will be just as much an eye-opener to how things REALLY were.

I've actually reduced my postings in here because it's like beating a dead horse. However, this is too good not to share. So, watch and see how it really was. No charts, no graphs... Just real accounts during every era of air combat so very accuratley re-created by aviators from both sides of the fence.

These are actual events ranging from WWI to present day which are studied in ground schools at Red Flag, and Top Gun - now known as NWTSC in Fallon, Nv. commonly known in NavAir as Strike University.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
Blacksheep 1

BSS_Vidar
12-02-2006, 01:24 PM
Next weekend the new History Channel series "Dogfight" will be featuring the Hellcat and the Zero.

After seeing what P-51Bs "actually" did to 109G6's in regards to speed and manueverability during mid-1943 in Bud Andersons accounts, I think this will be just as much an eye-opener to how things REALLY were.

I've actually reduced my postings in here because it's like beating a dead horse. However, this is too good not to share. So, watch and see how it really was. No charts, no graphs... Just real accounts during every era of air combat so very accuratley re-created by aviators from both sides of the fence.

These are actual events ranging from WWI to present day which are studied in ground schools at Red Flag, and Top Gun - now known as NWTSC in Fallon, Nv. commonly known in NavAir as Strike University.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
Blacksheep 1

ImpStarDuece
12-02-2006, 02:50 PM
I'd be amazed at what P-51Bs did to 109G6s in mid-1943, especially considering that the P-51B didn't see service in the ETO until December 1943.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


I wonder just how partisan this serise is...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

ImpStarDuece,

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

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slappedsilly
12-02-2006, 03:37 PM
A victim of propaganda, be sure.

FritzGryphon
12-02-2006, 04:05 PM
Don't knock it. I learned how to play IL-2 by watching the History Channel and Top Gun.

BSS_Vidar
12-02-2006, 05:22 PM
Hmm, that may have been an A I was looking at, but then that would make things even worse for the 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As for the "propaganda" thang, I think that can be popped in the teeth-n-gums right hear and now. Last nights episode confessed that out of every 100 missiles fired by U.S. fighters in Viet Nam, 11 hit their targets. No U.S. propaganda chest thumpin' there. Why would any other era be any different. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

BSS_Vidar
Blacksheep 1

Xiolablu3
12-02-2006, 09:04 PM
You would have to wait for the same program to be produced from Japan and hear from the Japanese Aces before you can say whether thats how things REALLY were.

You are getting a tiny snippet from the best US pilots, in their most succesful dogfights, no doubt many Japanese pilots also had lots of success and felt their planes superior.

What would LV Klotz 'Dogfight' story be?

'On 23rd, the Hellcat of LV Klotz (11F) was shot down but the pilot managed to survive.'

Try not to believe your own coutries hype, there were these types of success's on all sides, not just the USA.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

voyager_663rd
12-02-2006, 09:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
I'd be amazed at what P-51Bs did to 109G6s in mid-1943, especially considering that the P-51B didn't see service in the ETO until December 1943.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


I wonder just how partisan this serise is... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over Europe, the first missions with this version (-B & -C with the Merlins) were flown in December 1943 from bases in England; the first operational unit was the 354th FG which was designated the "Pioneer Mustang Group".<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

my goal for my 1/8th scale RC Corsair 1D:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/voyager_663rd/corsair.jpg

mandrill7
12-03-2006, 07:34 AM
I think it's generally accepted that the G-6 variant of the 109 (which was the contemporary veriosn in early and mid 44) was obsolescent compared to the latest GB and US fighters. The Germans didn't get back in the swing until late 44 when they brought out the K-4. The P-51 would have about a 40 MPH speed advantage over the G-6 for 1 thing.

Not surprised the US is portrayed as winning.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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mynameisroland
12-03-2006, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mandrill7:
I think it's generally accepted that the G-6 variant of the 109 (which was the contemporary veriosn in early and mid 44) was obsolescent compared to the latest GB and US fighters. The Germans didn't get back in the swing until late 44 when they brought out the K-4. The P-51 would have about a 40 MPH speed advantage over the G-6 for 1 thing.

Not surprised the US is portrayed as winning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look at WW2 in a vacum where the Bf 109 G6 was the only fighter in service during this period the P51 B sure kicked butt.

The G14, the G10, boosted variants of the G6 and of course the Fw 190 A6/8 at higher boost settings were all being introduced during this time period also.

If you want to look at a huge preformance advantage the Tempests and Spitfire XIVs introduction from Spring 44 onwards gave the Allies a fighter with a 40mph advantage at their peak altitudes and in the Tempests case it packed 4 x 20mm cannons and a bubble canopy from the word go.

But you wont see the Tempest on one of these TV shows.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Clan_Graham
12-03-2006, 07:59 AM
What country do you live in Vidar?
The History Channel in Canada is different than the History Channel in America.
I may have to go looking for this series in order to watch it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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"Aye, I know. I know you can fight. But it's our wits that make us men."
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I don't like peanut butter. It sticks to the bottom of my feet.
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Monguse
12-03-2006, 08:24 AM
Vidar,

I can agree with you 100%. There is another thread that discusses in detail the performance of the Hellcat and that the data that was used is in the "low end". I wont quote much so here is the link to the F6F Ready Room topic:
http://forums.<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">ubi[/b].com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7751023194 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7751023194)

I also watched the same digital re-enactments on the History channel (11/100 sparrow missles) however before that aired the guadalcanal Wildcat episode was on. Funny thing how my books and the digital episode compare to what this "SIM" depicts.
All I have to say is where's our 50cal API (Armor Peircing Incendiary) does our Wildcat have it? Does the Hellcat, Corsair, P51, P47, etc ...?

While I'm at it, what person in their right mind would tell the P47 armorers to reduce the 50 cal ammo load because the mission calls for drop tanks or rockets?

I would love for someone in the development team to step up to the plate and promise to update this game. I'd pay for that update with my credit card and eyes closed, it would be a no brainer.

Just my 5 cents worth.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VMF-214_HaVoK
12-03-2006, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You would have to wait for the same program to be produced from Japan and hear from the Japanese Aces before you can say whether thats how things REALLY were.

You are getting a tiny snippet from the best US pilots, in their most succesful dogfights, no doubt many Japanese pilots also had lots of success and felt their planes superior.

What would LV Klotz 'Dogfight' story be?

'On 23rd, the Hellcat of LV Klotz (11F) was shot down but the pilot managed to survive.'

Try not to believe your own coutries hype, there were these types of success's on all sides, not just the USA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good luck finding a Jap pilot who went up against a Hellcat and survived. If you do I highly doubt he would tell you that the Zero was superior to the Hellcat in anyway other then initial climb and low speed maneuverability. And having seen all their comrades die at the hands of the Hellcats and their pilots would only bring one response...
Sometimes a little glance at the facts, common sense, and rational thinking goes a long way. In most cases history is written by the winners and there is a reason for that.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/vmfhavok/theBlackSheep.jpg

BM357_Sniper
12-03-2006, 09:00 AM
It never fails, if it is a US show people outside of the US want to flame it as being bias. I'd dare say that when the show says the US had an 11/100 failure rate on it's missiles that it isn't being biased. lol

At any rate. I do agree that some of these planes (Hellcat) are using lower end numbers for performance. I also agree/think that some of these planes are on the other end of the spectrum, namely the zeros.

I can't tell you how many times I've had a zeke, either flown by myself or I was being chased by one, in a dive at well over 300 mph keep full control authority. If you do your research you'd know the control issues they encountered above 250 mph. In here the ONE escape US planes should have is diving and rolling right, but we don't even really have that in the sim. It gets aggrevating. Don't get me started about API. lol<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/lifeguardhall/bm357_logok.jpg
"It's funny that all these guys with engineering degrees rely so much on their charts and graphs to fly. When they get in the plane, they are lucky to fly straight and level. Get a real pilot in there, one that flies by the seat of their pants and he will make it do things that the 'brains' are still denying."

BM357_Sniper
12-03-2006, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You would have to wait for the same program to be produced from Japan and hear from the Japanese Aces before you can say whether thats how things REALLY were.

You are getting a tiny snippet from the best US pilots, in their most succesful dogfights, no doubt many Japanese pilots also had lots of success and felt their planes superior.

What would LV Klotz 'Dogfight' story be?

'On 23rd, the Hellcat of LV Klotz (11F) was shot down but the pilot managed to survive.'

Try not to believe your own coutries hype, there were these types of success's on all sides, not just the USA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you just skip over the part where Vidar said the show is recreated by pilots from BOTH sides?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/lifeguardhall/bm357_logok.jpg
"It's funny that all these guys with engineering degrees rely so much on their charts and graphs to fly. When they get in the plane, they are lucky to fly straight and level. Get a real pilot in there, one that flies by the seat of their pants and he will make it do things that the 'brains' are still denying."

tigertalon
12-03-2006, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You would have to wait for the same program to be produced from Japan and hear from the Japanese Aces before you can say whether thats how things REALLY were.

You are getting a tiny snippet from the best US pilots, in their most succesful dogfights, no doubt many Japanese pilots also had lots of success and felt their planes superior.

What would LV Klotz 'Dogfight' story be?

'On 23rd, the Hellcat of LV Klotz (11F) was shot down but the pilot managed to survive.'

Try not to believe your own coutries hype, there were these types of success's on all sides, not just the USA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. It's interesting, that aces from any nation in WW2 felt their own planes were superior to enemy, while the victims felt the enemy had superior equipement... One of best examples is Yak3 and 190D9: pilots of both were fairly convinced that their mount is better by far of all the enemy had. Sure, if dora tried to turn with yak... or yak to dive with dora... All a matter of perception and a matter of how successfuly the pilot was able to emphasise his own advantages over enemy disadvantages while preventing his opponent from doing the same.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">???An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child in this great nation.

Xiolablu3
12-03-2006, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
You would have to wait for the same program to be produced from Japan and hear from the Japanese Aces before you can say whether thats how things REALLY were.

You are getting a tiny snippet from the best US pilots, in their most succesful dogfights, no doubt many Japanese pilots also had lots of success and felt their planes superior.

What would LV Klotz 'Dogfight' story be?

'On 23rd, the Hellcat of LV Klotz (11F) was shot down but the pilot managed to survive.'

Try not to believe your own coutries hype, there were these types of success's on all sides, not just the USA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good luck finding a Jap pilot who went up against a Hellcat and survived. If you do I highly doubt he would tell you that the Zero was superior to the Hellcat in anyway other then initial climb and low speed maneuverability. And having seen all their comrades die at the hands of the Hellcats and their pilots would only bring one response...
Sometimes a little glance at the facts, common sense, and rational thinking goes a long way. In most cases history is written by the winners and there is a reason for that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my God I cannot believe I read this from you mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif....^, you are an old timer arent you?


'The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier. '


I am hoping that it was a troll and you know better really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

R_Target
12-03-2006, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Good luck finding a Jap pilot who went up against a Hellcat and survived. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sakai outwitted a half a dozen Hellcats for over thirty minutes, even shooting down one, and landed without a scratch on his plane. However, he would certainly be an exception.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

*+
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Xiolablu3
12-03-2006, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
It never fails, if it is a US show people outside of the US want to flame it as being bias. I'd dare say that when the show says the US had an 11/100 failure rate on it's missiles that it isn't being biased. lol

At any rate. I do agree that some of these planes (Hellcat) are using lower end numbers for performance. I also agree/think that some of these planes are on the other end of the spectrum, namely the zeros.

I can't tell you how many times I've had a zeke, either flown by myself or I was being chased by one, in a dive at well over 300 mph keep full control authority. If you do your research you'd know the control issues they encountered above 250 mph. In here the ONE escape US planes should have is diving and rolling right, but we don't even really have that in the sim. It gets aggrevating. Don't get me started about API. lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are reading stuff into my post now.

I didn't say it was biased, I said you are getting a very small snippet of ONLY US ACES.

Therefore you would need a show from the Japanese called 'Dogfights', where they talked about their superior planes like the Ki84, Early Zero vs Wildcat and N1K2. And also about shooting down and besting US pilots, and how they hought the N1K2 was the bestplane in the world. (The N1K2 is the Japanese equivalent of the Spitfire to the UK and the P51 to the USA so I have heard, a legendary fighter, loved by its people.

The only reason I said be careful is because I see a lot of Americans shows getting lost in their own hype (the dogfights show I saw showed only US pilots shooting down enemy planes and said nothing of the great dogfighters and pilots like Hartmann/Marseille who scored 300+ kills), and this thread has shown that a lot of you believe it too.


Here in the UK the Spitfire won the war you know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

csThor
12-03-2006, 09:49 AM
I would be very, very careful to take anything from these "documentaries" as more than very basic information. A german TV station (N24) which is somehow lumped in with some US media corporation shows US documentaries on various things (military history, aviation, today's military etc) and I was very disappointed with these programs (the german version is simply translated from english) - they're shallow, they're heavily biased and they tend to negate the roles of the USSR, GB and the Commonwealth in WW2. They sound and feel like advertizements for the US instead of a documentary so I have stopped watching them, no matter how tempting the theme is.

The only thing these "entertainment products" are useful for is to whet a newcomer's appetite for more.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

______________________________
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R_Target
12-03-2006, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier. ' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"On 16 February 1945 the US Navy launched it's first carrier raid against the Tokyo area, and Muto, piloting a new Shiden-Kai ('George') from the evaluation department of the air group, joined his squadronmates in an effort to thwart the raiders. Muto became embroiled in a fierce dogfight with F6F's from VF-82 that saw four Hellcats downed.

Desperate to find heroes to help deflect new of the seemingly endless series of military defeats, the Japanese press found WO Kaneyoshi Muto's deeds during this sortie ideal for their propaganda purposes. An exaggerated version of the combat was duly spread that saw Muto single-handedly take on 12 F6Fs, destroying four-this myth survives to this day."


-Source: Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 1937-1945, Henry Sakaida<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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