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wehyam
01-10-2006, 04:12 AM
How much is the throttle used to control things in 'combat'? Yes this must be the most naive question ever asked BUT..
I've noticed that I'm pulling it about almost as much as my stick.. Make what you will of that! Am I doing it right?

I do it to control the frequency of blackouts due to over turning at too high speed and yet it must be costing me loadsa energy and be bad technique..
or is it just what happens in the fur ball when its all down to a ducking and 'diving' fist fight rather than the booming and zooming in and out clean that up tactic?

wehyam
01-10-2006, 04:12 AM
How much is the throttle used to control things in 'combat'? Yes this must be the most naive question ever asked BUT..
I've noticed that I'm pulling it about almost as much as my stick.. Make what you will of that! Am I doing it right?

I do it to control the frequency of blackouts due to over turning at too high speed and yet it must be costing me loadsa energy and be bad technique..
or is it just what happens in the fur ball when its all down to a ducking and 'diving' fist fight rather than the booming and zooming in and out clean that up tactic?

stathem
01-10-2006, 04:19 AM
What plane?

neural_dream
01-10-2006, 04:23 AM
I assume you fly a typical fighter.

First shallow climb to altitude using 95% and Radiator at 6.

Then Cruise at 65-95%. Similar value for Propeller Pitch.

When you see an enemy you close the Radiator, 110%, Propeller Pitch 100%, WEP and climb with a speed about 250km/h.

When you dive change the throttle and Power Pitch accordingly so that you don't break your wings. Depends on the distance and relative speed of your target. E.g. a Stuka will cut off the throttle to dive-bomb. The blackout is a result of high Gs. When you see them coming don't let it happen, decrease the throttle and try to continue straight and level. Generally you won't have a problem with black outs if you exit the dive with anything but steep turn and/or climb.

Generally do all you can to retain your energy. If in doubt of the next move at least don't lose energy.

I think you'll find the following guide interesting:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/8311086963

wehyam
01-10-2006, 04:36 AM
Sorry stathem.. I do it in anything but "today I'm mainly flying hurricanes field mod" (because they are easiest)..

wehyam
01-10-2006, 04:55 AM
Sorry stathem.. I do it in anything but "today I'm mainly flying hurricanes field mod" (because they are easiest)..

neural dream.. thanks . that's fine advice for the the zoom boom doom part of it.
But in the slush and mush that seems to follow a typically missed attack.. er. when trying to claw the bad guys off tails (including mine) or trying to get on the tail; is trying to avoid overshoot by pulling back on everything just bad technique.. Should one be trying to zoom on through every thing and coming round again. BUT all the enemies seem to have really good speed control. Do they just choose the right line or are they being clever with their throttle. When they're on my tail they just seem to stay there till I die despite me jerking around as they say

regards madone.. Please dont say just practice.. It's practicing the right thing I need .. I'm sure I'm now really good at stalling!

Tully__
01-10-2006, 05:06 AM
Against humans (online) or against AI (single player, offline campaign and sometimes in coops missions online)?

wehyam
01-10-2006, 05:44 AM
Hey ho Tully,
I only fly off line.. I'm waiting for my AEP to be delivered before going online (and I only have to risk one patch session.. I saw your post)..
I do it (FB) almost only 'quick mission' ..all a bit pedestrian really.. my gang of four (hurricanes) defending a flight of IL2 against their gangs of four huris and occasionally bf109s.. maybe with some He111s to chopup (their rear gunners always get me so I 'let' the other guys kill them). Depending how good it's going I might make the enemy veterans.. Summer winter etc.. I'm just trying to get good enough to go on line without embarrasment..
BUT why do you want to know?
I'm surprised the throttle control issue would be much different on or off line.
BUT any advice is welcome.
regards madone

mandrill7
01-10-2006, 06:29 AM
Instead of throttling back to avoid overshoot, try a high yo-yo. You basically add VERTICAL distance to your attack to avoid overshooting. After you rake your enemy's 6 for a second or so and you're overshooting, pull UP hard vertical and slightly to 1 side. That keeps you behind your prey's 9-3 line. Then loop over and back onto his tail. Going UP loses you a little speed as well; but you get it back when you dive back down on him and thus, you remain in a high E state.

wehyam
01-10-2006, 07:55 AM
Thanks mandrill7,
suppose I'm going a little right to left across his 6. Do you mean I pull the stick back right and roll around him? If I do a loop I'm going to lose him but if I do a looping roll over my right shoulder maybe I'll find him again?
Whatever everything so far suggests I should stop trying to to do 'screach stop backside turns' (snowboarding)

Unknown-Pilot
01-10-2006, 08:13 AM
There is no need to work the throttle constantly. On a slow plane, like the Hurricane, you need as much thrust as you can get to keep you at proper turning speed (since you bleed it off in a hard turn). In a fast plane, you usually can't turn, and thus, need as much speed as you can get.

You aren't alone. A friend of mine who got accustomed to LOMAC had serious trouble trying to manage combat in PF. And he too was constantly working the throttle.

Really, there is never a time you want to slow down - unless you are in a Zero, and then you want to go up to slow down, not cut throttle.

(Well - ok, in the 109 you can use it's deceleration and acceleration as an asset and chop throttle without too much fear, but that's a special case)

Try this - if you're blacking out too much, it means you're turning too hard and too often. Remember, the AI doesn't black out. I noticed that you said they are flying the same plane, blacking out is putting you at a severe disadvantage. Likewise, slowing down without gaining altitude further puts you at a disadvantage.

Use immelmans, and high and low yo-yos (especially high - picture a hard turn, you know, stand it on it's wing and pull the stick - ok, picture that with less stick (so it's more gentle), and picture the centerpoint of the circle the arc you travel would create, now rotate that whole thing, say, 45 degrees up. In between a flat turn, and the top half of a loop).

At the outset, climb for all your worth to get altitude, plus this will keep you slow enough you shouldn't black out. At this point, use climbs and dives, exclusively, to control your speed. Be gentle on the stick and dance with the greyout. (<- spiking Gs will black you out quickly, gently adding them on will be less likely to put you to sleep)

Any time you turn, make sure there is a vertical component to your turn - if you're slow, low yo-yo or split S. If you're fast, high yo-yo or immelman. This way you can regulate your speed and G load without having to put yourself an an E disadvantage.

And if you get good enough position and have a definite speed advantage at the outset, then you can avoid the 'dogfight' altogether. Picking them apart with slashing attacks.

wehyam
01-10-2006, 09:24 AM
Hey ho Unknown-pilot...
Thanks for your advice.. is that your name!?
Thats just what I wanted/needed.
Someone to tell me to stop doing it! I had the feeling I was developing a bad habit.
From now on in its 'full' throttle (mostly) and controlling the speed by controlling the line..
(I'm allowed to chop the throttle back a bit when diving.. right)..
Diving? I find 'slashing attacks' a bit beyond me.. I can 'do' ground targets (mudfun)easy! but diving onto moving targets is too hard.. even with bombers I find my self missing well behind and then having to catch up with the rear gunners putting holes in my head. I find diving onto a fighter is harder than deflection shooting. The targets under my nose! I cant see it (he can see me; the AI have eyes in the back of their head right). Savest place to be.. madone's behind you.. dive
I'd begun to believe the AI had something going for them that I hadn't. G-neutral blood supply to the brain as well!

regards madone

neural_dream
01-10-2006, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wehyam:
even with bombers I find my self missing well behind and then having to catch up with the rear gunners putting holes in my head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then, if you feel you fall way behind the bomber keep diving and then zoom up again. Most bombers aren't sufficiently protected from below and definitely none of the two-seaters.

and yes, among others the AI isn't affected by Gs or by overheatings.

Unknown-Pilot
01-10-2006, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wehyam:
Hey ho Unknown-pilot...
Thanks for your advice.. is that your name!?
Thats just what I wanted/needed.
Someone to tell me to stop doing it! I had the feeling I was developing a bad habit.
From now on in its 'full' throttle (mostly) and controlling the speed by controlling the line..
(I'm allowed to chop the throttle back a bit when diving.. right)..
Diving? I find 'slashing attacks' a bit beyond me.. I can 'do' ground targets (mudfun)easy! but diving onto moving targets is too hard.. even with bombers I find my self missing well behind and then having to catch up with the rear gunners putting holes in my head. I find diving onto a fighter is harder than deflection shooting. The targets under my nose! I cant see it (he can see me; the AI have eyes in the back of their head right). Savest place to be.. madone's behind you.. dive
I'd begun to believe the AI had something going for them that I hadn't. G-neutral blood supply to the brain as well!

regards madone </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can throttle back in a dive, yes. And I have a feeling we probably should do so, technically, however, the game does't require us to.

As such, I would avoid throttling back, even in a dive - unless you are specifically trying so slow down and lose altitude (such as for landing).

The reason is - the plane won't be harmed until you reach the VNE (Velocity to Never Exceed). (technically it won't be harmed until after that, but that's the point of no return, so, close enough) The plane will, however, bleed off speed pretty quickly, if it's a slow mover, or if you pull too hard in a fast mover. This means you lose your gravity assist pretty fast. Thus, you want as much gravity assist as you can possibly get, throttling back will lower that.

If your target is too far away that you can't dive straight to it without breaking up - do it in stages. In a case like that, you don't want to burn off all your altitude in one shot anyway. It's safer to dive part way down, level, off and see what's around you (slowing down a bit, but still having the option to go back up from this point if necessary - something you woudln't have (as much) in a throttled back super long dive). Once you see that it's safe, work a better position and commence the second dive stage.

As for diving on planes, that will come with time. When I started playing this game, IL2 1.04 was the latest, and I refused to fly soviet planes. I forced myself to improve in the 109, which, in IL2, with it's REALLY crappy energy modeling, was screwed. Eventually I moved over to the 190. Now, 4 years later - I'm still a horrible shot, but a good pilot, and more often than not I can get my share of kills and get back to base intact (online). Even while using the heavy E-fighters (which I prefer).

Try using friendly bombers in the QMB as practice. You'll get the hang of it eventually.

Also, another idea for throttle/combat training might be to try QMB missions using the J8A against I-16s and such. This is similar to the Finnish campaign. And even though that's the most agile plane around, you still have to E-fight to some extent because the Poli's are so much faster than you. And combined with the J8A's heavy speed bleed, you'll be doing everything you can to get and keep every last kph possible, for as long as possible. lol

Using the 190 or P-51 is good for training high speed e-fighting where you can't fall back on turning to get you out of trouble - but that's for later I think. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

danjama
01-10-2006, 01:57 PM
I regularly change throttle settings during fights....its a good thing, keep doing it.

wehyam
01-10-2006, 04:01 PM
Hey ho you guy's,
Thank you for your interesting responses and useful advice, especially the unknown-pilot.
I've spent the evening giving it some hammer against the usual AI turkeys and I think its been a break through! Literally. Where as previously I'd get into the furball and come staggering out with it all on my back. Now I jump in, sting like a bee, and get the hell through and out of it while they're still forming an orderly queue. I'll keep the throttle chop and screech stall(!) for those special situations Danjama.. Can a plane actually go backwards or does it just look like it sometimes?

regards madone