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jasonbirder
06-04-2006, 03:36 AM
OK...no matter how hard I try I really just can't seem to get the measure of fighting some AI planes...I'm always getting dominated by I16s when i'm flying a 109Emil...
I know the theory is don't try to turn against them - extend away climb and come back at them with a speed advantage...
But I just can't seem to extend away from the with any regularity and once I start to climb they quickly catch me up...Even if I go into a climb with a good head of speed and try climbing at about 280 indicated they seem able to catch up and overhaul me with ease...
Any tips?

jasonbirder
06-04-2006, 03:36 AM
OK...no matter how hard I try I really just can't seem to get the measure of fighting some AI planes...I'm always getting dominated by I16s when i'm flying a 109Emil...
I know the theory is don't try to turn against them - extend away climb and come back at them with a speed advantage...
But I just can't seem to extend away from the with any regularity and once I start to climb they quickly catch me up...Even if I go into a climb with a good head of speed and try climbing at about 280 indicated they seem able to catch up and overhaul me with ease...
Any tips?

WTE_Galway
06-04-2006, 03:52 AM
spiral climb and try it a bit faster than 280 maybe more like 300-320

better yet dont engage them at all unless you have a 60 k or better speed advantage

Manu-6S
06-04-2006, 03:58 AM
Use BnZ and be patient.

Start very high and boom at 600km/h, don't turn and, again, be patient.

When you have to zoom, be very gentle with the controls and go hard vertical (a precise candle). Remember, if you lose speed at their altitude you are dead: keep it always above 500Km/h.

Bye

slipBall
06-04-2006, 04:02 AM
The 109 is a very decent turner, and excellent at diving. Try using a combination of each to put yourself on its tail. The combination of a diving turn, and then a split-s, will give you plenty of speed.

JtD
06-04-2006, 04:24 AM
The only real advantages of the 109 vs I-16 are speed and high alt performance. Best way to transform a speed advantage into a combat advantage is zoom climb. Also, try to fight them aroun 5000 m, but still: don't turn with them.

tigertalon
06-04-2006, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Use BnZ and be patient.

Start very high and boom at 600km/h, don't turn and, again, be patient.

When you have to zoom, be very gentle with the controls and go hard vertical (a precise candle). Remember, if you lose speed at their altitude you are dead: keep it always above 500Km/h.

Bye </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's obviously describing a situation where you start co-alt. With initial 1k alt advantage it's pretty easy with any plane.

Jason: when meeting them headon, just try to do it at full speed and jink just as much as necessary to avoid their fire. Then DON'T turn, just extend with the speed you have accumulated. He will loose some of his speed if he wants to turn to follow you. And then start to climb - my advice at this point is: try to do it a couple of times with cockpit off and icons on, so you can see how far behind he is. If he starts gaining on you during climb, ease it a bit, even to level flight if needed. Just don't let him come closer than, say .5 k, and climb as high as it takes, eventually he WILL fall back.

Remember, all russian engines (with exception of some late war Klimovs) suck at high altitute.

Manu-6S
06-04-2006, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
He's obviously describing a situation where you start co-alt. With initial 1k alt advantage it's pretty easy with any plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obvious? Why, Tiger?

I've seen a lot of pilots fighting with Bf109 against russian planes at the same alt (even G6 vs La5fn http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif ): and dying... of course.

The lesson is: always try to stay high from them, where they can't catch you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

jasonbirder
06-04-2006, 06:40 AM
Thanks for all the help guys...i'm trying it out as we speak...not helping as much as it should...I guess i'm just a bit rubbish http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I while ago I really seemed to have it down pat...but I took a break from the game and now even with weeks of practice i'm not at the level I was 6 months ago...

FritzGryphon
06-04-2006, 06:42 AM
In the past I've tested that, when climbing or diving, the AI does significantly cheat. It is a problem with how much speed the AI loses while in the initial decelerative portion of a climb, and how long they retain excess velocity after a dive.


You would be best off exploiting flaws in the AI, rather than trying to use actual tactics.

For example, the AI is afraid of the ground, and becomes useless at level turning, or split-Sing at low altitude.

It cannot lead, and a simple continuous turn will cause them to dump all their ammo for nothing.

The AI doesn't see clouds. It also doesn't see bridges or smokestacks.

Kuna_
06-04-2006, 07:15 AM
Look current Ai is somewhat different than humans in several things... but they are unable to cheat as much as you can read on the forum. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Their obvious cheating (fighters) can be seen in
-non-limited speed in dive
-no blackout
-always detecting enemy, especially at shooting range
To avoid their "jinking" when you put them in your crosshair, be sure that you approach them on considerably greater speed - that way in many cases they wont reatc untill you already place your initial burst.
In case that "jinking" (usually barell rolls) starts wait for a good shot don't be impatient. And try to predict their next move.

Most other stuff they do, if not all, you *can* do yourself.

Here are few tracks so you can observe tactics. All tracks are versus 4xAce, co-alt and Ai + player are usually on 50% fuel. You can find more info about track setup etc. in READMEs provided in .zip files.

404__kunabf109e_vs_4xi16_ace75 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/404__kunabf109e_vs_4xi16_ace75.zip)
405__kunaf4f_vs_4xa6m_ace50 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/405__kunaf4f_vs_4xa6m_ace50.zip)
405__kunabf109g_vs_4xspit25lbs_ace75 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/405__kunabf109g_vs_4xspit25lbs_ace75.zip) ***
405__kunap39n_vs_4xfw190a_ace50 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/offline/405__kunap39n_vs_4xfw190a_ace50.zip)

Luckily I have the setup in question; Bf-109E vs. I-16T24.
Practice more, I think average and veteran Ai are perhaps most realistic.

*** - spoiler - do not try this at home - it is a nightmare setup. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ICDP
06-04-2006, 07:18 AM
After a while you will realise that this sims AI is among the worst ever. Stop playing against them.

JtD
06-04-2006, 07:18 AM
Track says more than thousand words:

tutorial (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/109vsi16.ntrk)

Nothing special, but you will see what zoomclimbs are good for. Made two of them and was on his 6.

Manu-6S
06-04-2006, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
After a while you will realise that this sims AI is among the worst ever. Stop playing against them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Kuna_
06-04-2006, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Track says more than thousand words:

tutorial (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/109vsi16.ntrk)

Nothing special, but you will see what zoomclimbs are good for. Made two of them and was on his 6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is how it should be done, nice and clean. Right tactic too especially vs. humans.

ICDP
06-04-2006, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
After a while you will realise that this sims AI is among the worst ever. Stop playing against them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But then that leaves online and you realise this game has so many UFO's that it should have been called "Alien air combat". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
06-04-2006, 07:53 AM
Something that you may be doing that is hurting your chances is climbing too quickly. Shallow climbs are better for getting away from the enemy than a steep one (unless you have tons of speed). An I-16 and Bf109E in a high angle climbing contest will usually find the 109E running out of steam about the time that the I-16 can point its nose sufficiently long to fire off some shots before stalling.

Smooth flying is needed to win these sorts of situations.

jasonbirder
06-04-2006, 08:05 AM
Many thanks for all he help, advice & tracks guys!!!

lowfighter
06-04-2006, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Something that you may be doing that is hurting your chances is climbing too quickly. Shallow climbs are better for getting away from the enemy than a steep one (unless you have tons of speed). An I-16 and Bf109E in a high angle climbing contest will usually find the 109E running out of steam about the time that the I-16 can point its nose sufficiently long to fire off some shots before stalling.

Smooth flying is needed to win these sorts of situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WTE_Galway
06-04-2006, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ICDP:
After a while you will realise that this sims AI is among the worst ever. Stop playing against them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually my main gripe with the AI is they are stupid and keep killing themselves even on veteran and ace .. makes it hard to build up a good AI squadron when even the ace pilots fly like noobs, collide with each other and CFIT

they are pretty predictable and if anything a little too easy to take out once you realise their weak spots

Enforcer572005
06-04-2006, 09:49 PM
it entirely depends on the skill level of your opponent. I think the ai overall is probably the best of any sim ive flown the past 13yrs, or more accurately the least worse....still pretty lousy compared to people, but its improved i htink.

anything on ace is a UFO and cant miss. Vet is almost as good but does miss. they all wont follow you long in MOST turns, and they usually break off if you can jsut stay outta thier sites (or they run outta ammo, as said above).

they also like this up and ddown nonsense to...like a dolphin or a roller coaster. They dont like tight turns if you just keep some energy.....from my experience.

Sillius_Sodus
06-04-2006, 11:44 PM
Even though the I-16's are slower and turn tighter than the 109, you can still maneuver with them. What works for me is staying slightly outside of their turn, making sure I always keep them in sight using the basic front view. Thay way you can keep your speed and hence your energy at a higher level. AI bandits will always roll level eventually and when they do you can use your excess energy to either get behind the bandit or escape if in the meantime another bandit is going after you. I believe the proper term for it is lag pursuit. Patience and smooth control inputs are essential to make it work.

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus