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killebrew1
07-15-2004, 03:47 PM
I tend to fly turn and burn--I suspect many people do because it's intuitive and requires less patience. Anyone former turn and burners now flying boom n zoom? Any tips?

killebrew1
07-15-2004, 03:47 PM
I tend to fly turn and burn--I suspect many people do because it's intuitive and requires less patience. Anyone former turn and burners now flying boom n zoom? Any tips?

HART_dreyer
07-15-2004, 03:59 PM
It's so simple you'll cry out in confusion.

Start higher than the opponent, when you turn, be gentle and don't burn off your E. Use vertical separation as your trusted friend. The End.

I have lots of tracks on my website where I utilize a B&Z/Energy tactics type strategy.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

Shifty101
07-15-2004, 04:01 PM
I actually never really used the turn and burn tactics. I still to this day can't do it very well at all. Wierd.

http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt

ASM 1
07-15-2004, 04:39 PM
my fave plane is the TA 152 for preecisely this purpose, not trying to be vain in quoting myself but this is part of a convversation I had with someone on the merits of said plane:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm no expert but if anything what I have found in the TA is STAY FAST, dont bleed E by doing turns/fancy acrobatics, because it is very difficult to regain E in level flight (at least in the 2.01 TA)

The key to staying fast, is to have sufficient HEIGHT to build up E - IF you get "low and slow" with an opponent who can turn better than you, you are dead. I have managed to get out of this situation when facing ACE AI in the origiunal AEP by jinking/turning enough to make them crash (about 40M off the deck) but this is not recommended - Online Pilots will eat TA's Alive if you try this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

How to succeed in the TA/DORA ? Simple, get in quick, Kill and get out(http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif as HART_dreyer says http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) . In more depth this is called Boom and Zoom whereby you have an alt advantage, you dive on your opponent "Boom" (kill) and convert this energy gained back to height again - Zoom up at about a 45 degree angle. Whilst I said that the TA is not a turn fighter, once E has been gained, it stores it quite well, so it is best to do your manoevers "in the vertical" although nothing too drastic, if you are pulling out a dive/climbing - you may end up stalling!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for this warbling hope it is of some use.....

Above all - Practice!

S!

Andrew

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/asm016/WW2%20Stuff/Sig_Pic.jpg

killebrew1
07-15-2004, 05:19 PM
Okay, all very helpful advice. Couple questions: a.) When you encounter a group of enemies, how to you choose whom to attack? (Obviously from a higher altitude but what other factors do you consider?) and b.) At what point do you break off the attack and zoom away? Do you ever cut the throttle to stay with someone you are firing on or do you blow past them and then come back and try again?

HART_dreyer
07-15-2004, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Okay, all very helpful advice. Couple questions: a.) When you encounter a group of enemies, how to you choose whom to attack? (Obviously from a higher altitude but what other factors do you consider?) and b.) At what point do you break off the attack and zoom away? Do you ever cut the throttle to stay with someone you are firing on or do you blow past them and then come back and try again?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Attack the highest a target in most situation, I don't want anyone coming up at my E-level and try to steal my top dog title. I want to be on top no matter what, otherwise I may run away. Other than that you simply factor in "what will be the easiest target to hit?" and "are there any teammates in trouble that would benefit my assistance?". Also note that I do not help teammates that put them selves in a horrible position. Stupid teammates I let die, so I don't risk dying with them. However I will help smart teammates that for instance use separation and drag an enemy setting me up for a easy shot.

I never cut throttle and try to stay with them unless I'm flying the 109-G6/AS with 20mm. Why would you? That's just risky. But in the case that I'm flying a 109-G6/AS I've already decided before I attack that I'm not going to stick to strict B&Z, I simply use my energy advantage to put my self in a position so I get on his 6. I will never do this if there is multiple enemy aircraft around however, that is suicide.

My favorite trap is to zoom by someone with a bit extra E but not too much either so they'll try to follow me up thinking they can get me, then I'll come down on them as they approach stall speed. Not always easy to set it up so it happens just like that but it's great when it does.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

BlackShrike
07-15-2004, 05:50 PM
b and z doesnt work in full real. you need to burn too much E to id which is friendlies that you lose most of it

HART_dreyer
07-15-2004, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackShrike:
b and z doesnt work in full real. you need to burn too much E to id which is friendlies that you lose most of it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha! Funny. G1!

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

BennyMoore
07-15-2004, 09:43 PM
He's right, almost; the game does simulate a legally blind man's eyesight. Still, when I zoom and boom on "full" real, I act as if he were an enemy and start lining up the shot and leading him, but I hold my fire until I see what kind of aircraft it is (even though the identification distance is dozens of times smaller in the game than in real life). And if he's a friendly player flying an enemy aircraft, well that's just too damn bad because by the time my blind virtual pilot can make out the markings, I've lost my opportunity to shoot.

Wallstein
07-16-2004, 01:58 AM
Actually, I tend to fly high, select the target amongst the enemies, dive as fast as I can, shoot and climb back. I gess this is what you call zoom and boom. I play "Full Real" and I can assure you, it is not easy with all the restrictions of the view.

A true use of this tactics requires three things: 1)have to be patient; 2)have to have steel nerves and 3)have to stick rather strictly to this tactics. And why is that?

1) PATIENCE: It requires some 5-8 minutes to get in the proper altitude. Sometimes you have to go as high as to 6000 meters or even more. That would take 8-10 minutes or so. Usually I change course while climbing in the meaning of to look around the environment. Sometimes there are more patient enemies in the skies and it is good to reconnaise them in good time. That turning consumes a bit of the energy required for the climbing.

2) STEEL NERVES: When you sight aeroplanes and you have no idea wether they are friendly or hostile, you have to climb and keep them in your sight. At the same time you have to constantly check your tail. When the time is right and you choose to attack, you have to AIM, AIM AND AIM. Sooner or later during the dive you will loose the sight of the enemy behind your engine, but you have to trust that he is there. Then, as you approach the target plane, you have to identify it first. All that consumes time and on the other hand, time is what you would need for shooting. In a "Full Real" fight the opponent woun´t realize at once that he is being shooted at, so if you had 2-3 full seconds for burting and aiming, it would be perfect. But you don´t have it because you have to identify the target first. And when you know that he is legal target, you should be able to make the kill in 1-2 seconds.

3) STICKING STRICTLY TO THIS TACTICS: After your pass you cannot slow down and accommodate yourself among the dogfighting aeroplanes. Because almost surely there are Mustangs, La-7:s and Spitfires, you would be in a bad disadvantage. You have to pull up and the 45 degrees is good. Very often I get 2-3 Mustangs, the tough Russians or Spitfires chasing me and it gives me only one way to survive, climb. Then you have to fly stright, fast and climb, perhaps 5-8 degrees. Then it is possible to turn and take a look at the battle area by the side view, climb more and attack again. It is worth noticing that usually it takes several minutes to get far enough from the enemies for to turn and start looking.

I have noticed that there are many pilots who go straight to dogfight at low altitudes. I`m talking about "Full Real". That is possible thanks to their good equippment. They have very good joysticks, some of them even pedals. Very often they communicate (microphones etc. I suppose) doing good team play. I`m always alone, because I have to type my messages (not having micropohones etc) and it is dangerous in hot situations. My gaming time is quite limited, so I haven´t made much friends to co-operate. This has made me a lone, hunting beast chasing the enemies form above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In a good Schwarm of disciplined pilots everyhting is different. Also Bf 109:s are real dogfighters when well piloted. I have seen splendid piloting though very seldom. All in all, the Boom and Zoom tactics is the only recommendable one at least when you are alone.

Farkitt_
07-16-2004, 02:17 AM
Something else that you may consider, If you dive on your enemy as he comes towards you, You won't lose sight of him, but you have to pull out harder to miss him after the shot.

Also, if you can position yourself corectly, You can Dive lower than your enemy, in thier blind spot and fire a lead shot from his underside as you zoom.

As for recognition, After a while you get used to picking the Silowettes of Different Aircraft. Things like 109's and Stangs are hard to pick, but they were back in the 40's too.

http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

"You do that again, I'll boot your bollocks till they ring like the church bells at St Mary's. Next time, Ding ****" -Fanny Barton in "A Good Clean Fight" written By Derek Robinson

NorrisMcWhirter
07-16-2004, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
a.) When you encounter a group of enemies, how to you choose whom to attack? (Obviously from a higher altitude but what other factors do you consider?) and b.) At what point do you break off the attack and zoom away? Do you ever cut the throttle to stay with someone you are firing on or do you blow past them and then come back and try again?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a. Whoever looks 'weakest' (i.e. not with the rest of the group) or is at the highest altitude (i.e. poses a greater threat to me).

b. Always make a pass, extend, then climb. Repeat.

c. Only ever chop the throttle if you have bagged all but one and you have a high chance of getting the last one, without risk to yourself, IF you slow down. This is only really advisable when you know you are probably going to be able to turn with them now they are on their own....i.e..like someone says, if you have a G6/AS or G2.

Of course, you will always get the 'stop running away' taunts but that just adds to the experience http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris

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LilHorse
07-16-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
He's right, almost; the game does simulate a legally blind man's eyesight. Still, when I zoom and boom on "full" real, I act as if he were an enemy and start lining up the shot and leading him, but I hold my fire until I see what kind of aircraft it is (even though the identification distance is dozens of times smaller in the game than in real life). And if he's a friendly player flying an enemy aircraft, well that's just too damn bad because by the time my blind virtual pilot can make out the markings, I've lost my opportunity to shoot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, he's wrong. Totally. One way to avoid the nonsense of: "...if he's a friendly player flying an enemy aircraft..." is to NEVER FLY MIXED PLANE SETS! If you're gonna fly FR and employ a realistic tactic like BnZ then you should at least be flying Axis vs. Allies if not historical year limited plane sets.

This aids in identification tremendously (and also eliminates the "Air Quake" factor as well). You learn what the respective planes look like at a distance. The first rule of thumb is that Axis planes tend to have a darker or bolder pixel image at a distance, while Allied are lighter, almost more gray looking. Also, as you get closer use the zoom view to ID and get the positions of planes, then switch back to your preferred view for the attack.

This works pretty well for me. And I don't have some super hotrod rig. By today's standards my rig is old and slow and my graphics card is so old it would make half of you gag and the other half laugh.

This doesn't mean that I haven't on occasion shot at or even shot down a friendly. It is just a rare exception. It'll happen to everyone, it happened in RL too.

Dubow
07-16-2004, 10:12 AM
Since I tend to fly different types of planes frequently, I'll B&Z when the type requires it and T&B when that type requires it. Last night I was flying the FW190F-8 for the first time and recorded at least 3 kills(which I landed)and they were "slashing" type of attacks.

&lt;S&gt;
Dubow

"I know he's good, but is he lucky"

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2004, 10:53 AM
I wouldn't say you CAN'T B&Z effectively in this sim, I'd say that it's harder than it ought to be.

Dreyer's comments are spot on. Insist on the alt advantage, go easy on the turns (I tend not to commit to a turn unless I know there are no other threats to complicate things should I miss my target), and know when to extend up and away and get the hell out.

The sim itself penalizes B&Z because you can't see very well below you, or very consistently. The sim, by design or by chance, favors the guy in the weeds, when it should be the guy on the perch who has the advantage. Certain planes, like P-40s, P-39s and, as I discovered to my chagrin yesterday, TB3s are given some kind of "perfect match for turf" invisibility. You just do NOT see them from altitude, and you often can watch them disappear from view as you get CLOSER to them; thus you need to risk more alt and more time in the attack than is necessary or is often prudent. That is to say, you end up diving into an "area" hoping to reacquire the dot, when you should be diving in on a precision pursuit course on a dot you see; then once you're dangerously low, suddenly there are six planes buzzing around in circles, none of which you could see from 2 or 3km up, doing a careful, concentrated area search. This naturally makes B&Z a bit problematic, and flies in the face of reality.

B&Z is hard in this sim, but it can be done.

crazyivan1970
07-16-2004, 11:00 AM
Most important part in B&Z is a gunnery, meaning ability to hit moving plane at 700km/h, everything else is not too bad.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

HART_dreyer
07-16-2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Most important part in B&Z is a gunnery, meaning ability to hit moving plane at 700km/h, everything else is not too bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally disagree. The key is to use your energy advantage and setup the attack so you do not need to be excellent at gunnery. 700km/h, attacking at such high speeds is totally impossible in the BF-109 (due to heavy elevator) unless the prey does not know you are coming, in which of course gunnery is pretty easy anyway.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

crazyivan1970
07-16-2004, 12:29 PM
i`ll disagree too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That`s the key mate... if you can hit enemy at 700, who cares about energy management http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If you flying B&Z in full meaning of this word, you already all about energy, but if you can`t hit your pray at high speeds... what`s the point in this tactic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It`s hard but not impossibe to nail someone at those speeds, besides 700+ will allow you to gain about 3000m after recovery, especially in late 109s. Ok, your turn to disagree http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

HART_dreyer
07-16-2004, 12:36 PM
I guess it depends how you define the tactic B&Z then. In your case I rarely ever use B&Z. Trust me it is virtually impossible hitting a moving target at 700km/h, you have no way to correct small errors in the 109 at such speeds.

What I'm trying to say is you don't need to that much kinetic energy if your opponent is merely flying at 300km/h.

Now that I think about it B&Z in the BF-109 is only suitable when you catch your enemy by surprise.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

crazyivan1970
07-16-2004, 12:44 PM
That`s the only way i engage mate... 700+ high speed pass, hit and run http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

HART_dreyer
07-16-2004, 12:50 PM
I find that is making it more difficult that it needs to be and not utilizing your advantage to the fullest potential. I enjoy trapping people in a fight they cannot win.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

Whelmed
07-16-2004, 05:47 PM
I Love bnz..!!! when I pull it off ok.

I find it's the most gratifying kill to get.. and if you do it well.. u just know someone out there is thinking "wtf was that!!!". I know I do when it happens to me.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can go quite un-spectaculary wrong tho.. I've been at exterme alt advantages.. only to come in from too high.. get too fast and either watch my wings come off or be unable to pull up.. just to end up a small, un-consequential, smear of the landscape.

For me, the hardest part was allways IDing the target before being able to commit to a pass. I used to look for colored tracer to help ID for a high alt (assuming no icons) and try to home in on the source.

It's all very exciting.. my heart races when coming in because u know you only have a fraction of a second to react when u get close.. usually everythings shaking.. the screen is a blur.. and u have soo much deflection ur target disappears and for a split second.. u just fire and hope you clear anything that might be in your path..

Well.. that's how I recall it from those rare occasions it happened.. once upon a time.. lol

Franzen
07-16-2004, 09:19 PM
I like to be attacked by the BnZers. Although it's common knowledge BnZ tactics take a lot of patients I find most players are very impatient. When I see an enemy above me I know he's gonna go for a BnZ so I simple fly straight and level. When he's coming in for the attack and is about 1k away I quickly turn a bit and pull up.. After repeating this 2 or 3 times he becomes impatient and I've gained alt.
A little more patients on my side and a little less on his will get me on his six.
Lastnight I tried the Yak3 for the first time. Not a bad plane. I was attacked by a Ta152. he has about 3k alt advantage on me. I used my regular anti-BnZ tactics and about 10mins later I was on his six. He couldn't get further than 250m away from me. I followed him and achieved 2 things. One, my teammate was kept clear to fight the others. Two, I drove the enemy crazy since I stayed on his six until he crashed and never fired once, I had forgotten to bring ammo. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The first moral of this story is that in my opinion patiences is the most important factor.
Second, don't forget to bring ammo to a fight. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Fritz Franzen

BM357_Raven
07-16-2004, 11:19 PM
I recommend becoming well versed in the turn & burn first. Thrash about, learn to stick with 'em, avoid blackouts, use the maneuvers in the 'book' and try to figure out how to position yourself even if it sometimes means pulling off and repositioning through a new arc-- but not just at low altitudes,-- high ones as well...

Then start working on the B&Z. They both take time to learn and incorporate different disciplines.

Although, it may be wiser to keep your energy up and return to your perch in general, there are times where you will be vulnerable, such as near your base in take off's and landings, ground attacks, etc.

So, if you dont have T&B skills, your likely to be more vulnerable in various circumstances throughout the game.

Also, though I can relate to one post about not falling prey to aiding someone who has left themselves in a bad position, it's sometimes my personal downfall that I *have* to go and help them. Often it pays off when I clear someone's 6. Then I climb and get ready for the next wave from ALT. NOT the safest way, but my way nonetheless. Plus you get extra gratification when a friendly thanks you. I know I would.

I think the top pilots, can scrap it up with the best of 'em and if you can cross over from one medium to another, exploiting the weak spots in enemy positions, you'll be a nastier pilot in the end.

Kinda like being able to kick box AND grapple and do whatever it takes.

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HART_dreyer
07-16-2004, 11:25 PM
Being skilled in all the various types of fighting techniques is certainly a big advantage as Raven here noted.

I also do enjoy helping out teammates when they are in trouble, however I dislike being shot down more. I will normally risk my self somewhat if my teammate is actually smart and tries to make it as easy as possible for me to help him. Otherwise I'll just get frustrated with him.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

BennyMoore
07-17-2004, 03:20 AM
There's nothing worse than trying to help someone out, and they fly away from you. Stupid, stupid stupid! This goes triple if the enemy aircraft is faster than yours.

DuxCorvan
07-17-2004, 03:29 AM
"Boom n zoom anyone?"

No. I just boom n zoom planes. To boom n zoom someone is proper of sex maniacs and it's forbidden, I think... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Wallstein
07-17-2004, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
That`s the only way i engage mate... 700+ high speed pass, hit and run http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
--------------------------

I vote for this, or at least almost. My attacking speed tends to be 500-600 km/h. Then I climb for at least 1500 meters before even looking seriously behind me. Because I usually fly older Messerschmitt 109:s than what the enemy aeroplanes are, I tend to get 2-3 Mustangs, La:s, LaGG:s or Spitfires chasing me, and THAT MAKES IT "DANGEROUSLY" INTERESTING!

It is hard, it was hard in the 1940:s, it is ment to be hard, but it is worth it. I have made 31 continuous missions, most of them online (Full Real or at least in closed cockpit) and scored 8 kills. You may think that this is not much. But remember, that after the first dive you have waken up enemy who uses stronger, newer, better if not faster aeroplanes. And, last but not least, those 31 continuous missions I ended ALIVE.

So, even if the tactics is difficult, (views, padlocks "on" or "off", lagg on the online, occasional stickyness etc), it is the only tactic to stay alive when playing really hard (=that you remain "a living" pilot).

And one more thing, which is off the record: when the enemy realizes that you are making serious Dive-and-Climb attacks, they will attack you with all they have (with everybody who can communicate with their team mates). And when they come after you, they usually don´t care about their own lives. SO ON REALITY I HAVE SEEN MY CHASERS CRASHING, SPINNING ETC AND ONCE EVEN SHOOTING EACH OTHERS. I have counted that as much as 14 enemy aeroplanes have been destroyed because of engaging with me instead of just 8 confirmed kills. And all that in 31 missions.

All that feels very realistic at least to me!

Everybody, dive and climb!
Wallstein

BennyMoore
07-17-2004, 02:25 PM
I was zoom and booming a rude guy yesterday, and he spent five minutes trying to convince me (while I took the opportunity to zoom and boom his unmaneuvering, typing ****) that zoom and booming was for noobs, and that "real pilots" turn and burn. He said that turn and burning takes "real skill."

Now, I don't know about you, but zoom and boom never occurred to me until long after I had gotten turn and burn down pat. Turn and burn is the instinctive thing, but the more foolish. Zoom and boom is actually a far more advanced form of flying than turn and burn.

So what does everyone think? Who was the one ripping on the bong, him or me?

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2004, 02:44 PM
The guy's an idiot.

First of all, whatever gets you the kill and home in one piece is the right thing to do. If you need to turn 'n burn, do it. If you need to boom & zoom, you do that.

Secondly, people who "hate" B&Z are the T&Bers who don't have the patience or skill set to do anything but yank and bank. They know nothing about energy, and think you must be cheating the way you control the fight and spank their noob behinds with relative ease.

If they choose not to learn, well, fine... I'll just keep painting their decals on the tail of my plane.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Sat July 17 2004 at 07:49 PM.]

HART_dreyer
07-17-2004, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
I was zoom and booming a rude guy yesterday, and he spent five minutes trying to convince me (while I took the opportunity to zoom and boom his unmaneuvering, typing ****) that zoom and booming was for noobs, and that "real pilots" turn and burn. He said that turn and burning takes "real skill."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, what a funny guy. No really, he's an idiot like Stiglr here noted. I've run into pilots as such and I've beat them at their own game, silly *******es.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

BennyMoore
07-17-2004, 10:45 PM
Does anyone here have some sort of Energy Retention One Oh One in ten easy steps or something? I'm not that great at boom and zoom, and anything I know about it I've taught myself. I used to pull back hard on the stick after firing at them, but then one day I for some reason just let the aircraft take itself up. And I realized that I'd gained a lot more altitude back that way than by my then-usual method of pulling up. So now I've figured that pulling up is not good. However, I don't know about angles and such. Different aircraft have different optimum zoom climb angles, right? How am I supposed to find these? I can never tell at what angle my aircraft is climbing the best. Also, is there ever a time to push down on the stick to limit your zoom climb? I know that in some aircraft (P-38 and P-47), if you let it take itself up long enough, you'll end up completely vertical, in which case you'll need to roll in order to avoid looping back down before you've lost all of your energy.

See what I mean about needing tips? Can anyone give me a hand here?

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2004, 10:59 PM
It's all situation specific. There is no "right answer", it's what the situation demands.

Normally, if i can even use that term, you want a fairly shallow recovery from a diving gun pass. This bleeds off your energy slowest, and gets you up and out of danger where your slower enemy usually cannot follow. This is also safest to do when there are multiple bogies in the area, and you're not SURE where each of them is or how much energy they have. About 15 to 20 degrees is about right, and maybe you can chandelle smoothly off the top or bank and have a look down behind you.

Now, say you are attacking one guy, and he's not likely to get any help. Here you might want to be more aggressive. You dive in, he sees you at about 1km and starts a break turn. You're too hot to stay with him in the turn; after you follow for maybe a 1/4 circle, you can see you can't pull lead for the shot. But you still have a huge energy advantage, and this guy's blowing what little E he had turning.

So, you pull up steeply, bank and watch him circle under you. chop throttle, put in some flaps to keep from stalling, and just roll onto his heading as you dive down on him. He has to turn (and burn E), but you're just rolling around your nose (which costs you little to no energy) to change direction. You're also picking up quite a bit of energy in your nose down attitude, so watch it; just enough to keep your advantage but don't overspeed.

Pull in behind your energy depleted foe and let him have it. If you miss, or he still is turning, pull up again, as shallow or as steep as you feel is prudent.

That's all E management is: keeping an advantage and never letting your opponent rest until he's in flames or bails out. Or, if he gets help, you have to be sure you can escape or recover to where you are the highest plane in the area.

Here's a track to illustrate these comments.

Boom & Zoom victories (http://www.naysayers.com/HurrisMalta.zip)

These kills were scored online against human opponents, in a short, friendly-icon only environment, so you may have to strain to pick up the "dots".

In the first engagement, I dive onto an opponent who turns into me, but stupidly tries to climb into my attack. All it takes is a simple climb and recovery, while he uses all his speed climbing to reach what he can't reach, and I just dive back onto him. He's helpless.

In the subsequent kills, I'm right over the enemy AF, so you'll notice I take time after each kill to get up, get out and take stock. Am I still the highest plane? Is the ack getting too hot? Is my engine overheating? Yes? No? No? OK, now I can look for another victim. Low, down-in-the weeds turn and burners are simple to take out, one after another. Provided you don't get too aggressive and don't dive in and commit to turning yourself, and then find somebody diving on you. Know when to dive in, when to climb out, and when to get out.

I was never in ANY danger, except from AAA, the whole time. All my victims were carefully selected, usually clueless or fixated on other aircraft (In fact, I find my last two victims by their telltale red Hurri tracer as they chase some guy merrily around the island). I managed my throttle and my closure rate even in dives, so I had decent shooting windows lasting at least a good second or two.

This is classic B&Z. The track ends abruptly as I end up low after running out of cannon and I begin to hightail it home. The server picked that moment to change maps. I would have easily made it though, since there was only one other Hurri nearby and he broke away as I chased down that final smoking Hurri, and couldn't have caught me anyway.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Sat July 17 2004 at 10:35 PM.]

HART_dreyer
07-17-2004, 11:35 PM
Good track Stiglr! Thanks.

Why waste so much ammo though?

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2004, 11:36 PM
Waste ammo? I thought that was a pretty good shooting display there. Not one shot missed, which I certainly can't say of all my B&Z passes, and most of the cannon hits took out a stab, tail or something vital.

HART_dreyer
07-17-2004, 11:42 PM
It was good shooting and great flying but you could have done it with half the ammo, can't you tell by looking at the track? No disrespect my friend, really do appreciate the track.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2004, 11:45 PM
You're a better "Marseille shot" than me, my friend. Keep in mind, it was an Emil, with wing mounted guns, and lower muzzle velocity, not my usual nose mounted 20mm or 30mm, so....

Also, normally, I can stick around and get a couple more just with the MG17s, but not over a flak infested enemy airfield. Nah, I'm not that good to be that "hair on fire" aggressive.

I'll take a mission with 3 kills and not a scratch any day of the week.

HART_dreyer
07-17-2004, 11:49 PM
Nah, your aim is exceptional its a simple matter of using shorter bursts.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

BennyMoore
07-17-2004, 11:49 PM
One other thing (I haven't watched those tracks yet, by the way, but I downloaded them just now)...

After you reach the speed in a dive that is the maximum speed that your aircraft can go when straight and level, you lose energy. Yes, you keep gaining speed past that speed, but you're not going to get it back as altitude when you zoom climb. It's gone.

Is there any way of getting around this? I know I can't boom and zoom in the P-38 because it loses so much energy. If I start out with a three kilometer energy advantage and make one pass, I end up with a one kilometer advantage. I can't conceive of any way to keep that extra two kilometers of altitude. And with the P-38, a one thousand altitude advantage does not help you at all, because a lot of the more, uh, capable (cough overmodelled cough) aircraft can climb straight up for a kilometer and put bullets into you with ease.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2004, 11:56 PM
I get your meaning, Dreyer; it's just that, with lag and the collision modeling, I'll hold down the trigger until I see decisive bits fly off, or get flame. I've been burned too often trying to fire "just enough" into a plane to cripple it, and have him turn on me, not really wounded at all and kick my behind with some bullsh*t Yeltsin loop/turn; especially with the 20mm that does bugger all an alarming % of the time, even when you stitch a plane good with it. Also collisions, where your nose gun doesn't hit, but strangely enough, your nose ends up right up the enemy's tail. Hmm, odd how that could happen when the nose is where the gun is, and the enemy's filling your gunsight.

Benny, to answer your question, you shouldn't need to get to "terminal speed" to do a B&Z pass. Look at that track; I don't even get fast enough to get the "concrete elevator" effect. It's controlled speed: much faster than my victim, but not so fast that I can't maneuver, and not so fast that I black out, or ram my opponent. The first victim ultimately tries a barrel roll that might have ended in a collision if I'd pressed the attack too hard. Classic example. Use the speed you need to get the kill and some to spare to escape. No need to have a vibrating airframe.

HART_dreyer
07-17-2004, 11:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
One other thing (I haven't watched those tracks yet, by the way, but I downloaded them just now)...

After you reach the speed in a dive that is the maximum speed that your aircraft can go when straight and level, you lose energy. Yes, you keep gaining speed past that speed, but you're not going to get it back as altitude when you zoom climb. It's gone.

Is there any way of getting around this? I know I can't boom and zoom in the P-38 because it loses so much energy. If I start out with a three kilometer energy advantage and make one pass, I end up with a one kilometer advantage. I can't conceive of any way to keep that extra two kilometers of altitude. And with the P-38, a one thousand altitude advantage does not help you at all, because a lot of the more, uh, capable (cough overmodelled cough) aircraft can climb straight up for a kilometer and put bullets into you with ease.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any attack as such will always burn some energy, but I think you might be exaggerating a tad. You have a track showing what you mean?

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
you shouldn't need to get to "terminal speed" to do a B&Z pass. Look at that track; I don't even get fast enough to get the "concrete elevator" effect. [...] Use the speed you need to get the kill and some to spare to escape. No need to have a vibrating airframe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't like trying to do stuff at high speeds either, but I'm trying to retain as much of my energy as possible. Even doing it as fast as possible, the way I do it right now, I'm not getting away fast enough to be able to not get hit, or not have him catch up with me in a few seconds.

The worst thing about boom and zoom is that if you're boom and zooming, the chances are that your aircraft can't outturn the other guy (although not always, I'll boom and zoom aircraft that I can outturn, just to be safe). Therefore, it is essential that he does not catch you. Now, as the entire board probably knows by now, I fly the P-38, almost exclusively. And there are a large number of aircraft that outturn and outrun the P-38. So, if I'm zoom and booming one of these - say a Mig-3 U - and I don't get him right away, he's going to catch up to me quickly. It only takes a few misses before you're no longer boom and zooming him but trying to get him off of your tail or, even more often, heading earthwards with lead in the belly of your plane.

I'll record a few tracks and send you the best as soon as I watch Stilgr's, okay? What e-mail address should I send it to?

HART_dreyer
07-18-2004, 01:48 AM
dreyer@dreyermachine.com

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

OldMan____
07-18-2004, 08:58 AM
Important... do not choose that target 4km below you.. dropping 4 km you get an almost impossoble kill due to speed and looses all your advantage. So DONT.

Select the highest target just under you..

I never hit anything at 700 kph... and usually most my kills are around 550 kph when BnZ.

Remeber.. you must be faster than him.. but don´t need to get in to Warp 9 to do it...

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 09:42 AM
Couple of things here, Benny:

1) Fast diving attacks is what a P38 should excel in. Unless you're in an F model with its compression problems, you should want to be doing diving slashing attacks with all those nose mounted guns.

2) Be careful about diving in too steeply. Your perfect target is a con about 2km below and 2 km distant. You can get a nice dive angle in, and if you're sure he doesn't see you, you can risk diving below him and firing as you begin your climbout.

3) If you B&Z right, it doesn't matter what plane the enemy has, he isn't gonna catch you. If he tries to climb up into your attack early, you have to react to that soon enough to make it a deathtrap for him. See the first kill in my track. The Hurri tries exactly that: see what it gets him.

Against a wily foe who sees you, sometimes it may be necessary to do some feint attacks, dive in, but don't commit and wait for him to climb and break into you. You counter with your own high yo-yo and then dive in and get him. This is where the patience comes in. You don't get first pass kills with B&Z every time; sometimes your prey sees you, sometimes there are other planes complicating your decisions, sometimes you just screw up and miss the shot. So, you gotta learn how to get out and preserve your E advantage (recognizing that in a prolonged engagement, your E margin shrinks for each pass!), and when to change priorities and make sure YOU stay safe.

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 11:54 AM
Okay, several things... First, I couldn't watch your tracks, there is a version mismatch. I assume that you're using the leaked thingy.

Also, I'm going to have a slight disadvantage at boom and zoom because I almost always play with externals. I'm not going to debate the realism of that in this thread; I've got a debate going in another thread if anyone wants to take it up there. So, they always see me coming. I'm not complaining because I'm aware that this is going to happen when I play with externals.

Okay, now the thing about the P-38 is that you cannot choose your engagements, because although you cannot outturn most planes, most planes are faster than you, and by a lot. Yesterday I was two kilometers above three aircraft, and I exercised caution and attempted to disengage. However, even with a two kilometer altitude advantage, I was unable to get away. Ten minutes or so later, I managed to crash land to avoid being blown appart by Mk 108s (or the Japanese equivalent), because two of those three plane were on my six and closing fast. That's what I'm talking about.

Say, can anyone who is using version two point zero one record some tracks of successful boom and zooming various aircraft in the P-38 L?

I'm going to do so myself, except for the successful part, but I've not yet fully awakened so I'm not going online for a bit.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 12:25 PM
No, I'm not using the leaked patch. Did you get the .zip file or a .trk file? You should have downloaded a .zip file. You need to unzip the file, then view it.

First off, you just mentioned the reason why playing with externals is bogus and arcade. The unseen bounce is and was a FACT of air combat. Being "gifted" with a magic Spidey sense and being able to see around the outside of your plane invalidates these tactics. So, if you're going to do that, and support the use of unrealistic visibility (and negating one of your chief advantages in B&Z), why bother trying to learn realistic tactics? Get rid of those training wheels and progress.

Going past that, even if they see you coming, you still have the advantage of E. In my track, the first victim sees me coming a couple of miles away. See how much it helped him.

Secondly, I haven't flown the P38s in here (I use them for targets only), but I know enough about them to know that there should not be many planes faster than it. I dunno if you're doing something wrong with the engines, or trim, or what, but you should not be being hunted down like a dog after a B&Z pass in a P-38.

Of course, that's assuming the P-38s are modelled correctly (and that's never an assumption I'm willing to make). Others can chime in on how accurate the -38 is in here.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Sun July 18 2004 at 11:36 AM.]

OldMan____
07-18-2004, 12:49 PM
At sea level.. few planes can go witha P38 without WEP.. so If you can keep them in long chases.. you win. P38 is not that slow.. specially considering it can gain high ground very fast.. and alt is SPEED you can use.

One thing you must consider.. most servers with wodner woman and outside views use La7 and like planes.. so does not bother... nothing but a Dora can run with those things.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 01:13 PM
Oh, you truly don't want to get me started on the P-38 and undermodelling. Anyway, it is one of the easiest aircraft in the game to catch. Here I shall list a number of aircraft that can catch it - most of them can do this absolutely, at all (or nearly all) altitudes, in climbs, dives (P-38 may get away for a while but when it runs out of altitude they catch up), and straight and level flight. Yak, Mig-3, La-7, Ki-84, P-51, BF-109 G-6/AS and all later models of BF-109... That doesn't seem like a lot of fighters, nine aircraft, but when those comprise a huge majority of aircraft used online, it is. The only aircraft which I know I can beat are the Zero, Spitfire, Lag, and other ridiculously slow aircraft.

To add to the problems of the P-38, the game allows for near continuous use of war emerency power (which the P-38 does not have). In real life boost was limited to two minutes of use followed by ten minutes cooling. That's right out of the game's object viewer.

The P-38 L has a maximum speed of five hundred and twenty kilometers per hour when going straight and level on the deck. It's better when you're up high, but then you can't turn a quarter near as well as, say, the BF-109 G-2 (whereas down low you turn half as well), and the other aircraft still outrun you. In fact, up high, even a BF-109 G-2 outruns you. So much for the turbochargers!

If you don't believe me, or you believe that my piloting skill is at fault (which is possible, but I think not), then do tests for yourself. Fly the P-38 for a bit and get to know it.

By the way, the Air Force (I had originally said Lockheed, but I made a mistake; Lockheed redirected me to the Air Force) told me in an e-mail that the J and L models should have the same performance, and that the difference between the two models was mainly the airbrake. In the game, there is over a one thousand kilometer ceiling difference, as well as at least a twenty kilometer per hour speed difference on the deck. So much for accuracy...

As for P-38 being undermodelled, I once created a thread about it with mathematics and official statistics, but unfortunately I made a bogglingly huge error (I forgot to account for indicated airspeed at high altitude and ended up being incorrect by about forty percent). Although my correct data still showed that the P-38 is undermodelled, I was laughed off of the thread and I think it even got locked. Now that I've gotten ahold of a copy of the P-38 Lightning pilot's handbook, I'm going to post another thread on it one of these days. Oh yeah, the stall speed is also way too high in the game. The fact, fully supported by official figures, is that Oleg did not model the P-38 to factory specifications, or anywhere near them, contrary to his claim in his statement about all United States aircraft being modelled to "best findable data." It is generally accepted at the board that he meant only factory specifications, and if he didn't mean that, then he was even more off than if he did.

By the way, about the externals, I fully agree with you about them being unrealistic in negating the element of surprise. I don't like it, but I still feel that it's closer to real life visual ability than the crippling full difficulty with hat switch. And I know from real life flying experience just how easy it is to see things from the cockpit of an aircraft.

Now, as for your tracks, I unzipped them into C:\game\IL-2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles\records, then opened the game and attempted to load it, but it gave me the version mismatch error. Did you try out the leaked thingy and then repatch without uninstalling or something?

[This message was edited by BennyMoore on Sun July 18 2004 at 12:55 PM.]

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 01:23 PM
Nope. I'm on 2.01, and am awaiting the OFFICIAL patch.

Seems a few others have been able to view the tracks, no? Maybe you got a corruped d/l. It's been known to happen.

Trash the file and grab it down again.

As for "crippling full realism with hat switch", I think the graphic representation of "dots" in the sim is much worse than the "view from the cockpit" problems.

Many folks are using New View, Track IR and other visual aids. Me, I'm happy with my hat switch. If you ever get those tracks viewable, you can see I had little problem keeping planes in view, even when rolling over the top of them, or sneaking a quick 6 check while in pursuit. It just takes practice, and is well worth it: you are NEVER at the mercy of some gadget or whether your sim has padlock, or how the game handles viewing features. With hat skills, YOU are in control of your viewing, limited though it may be.

As for the challenge to fly the P-38, no thanks, I'll pass. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your assertions as to how well it's ueber/unter/modelled... I just see -38s as nice, crunchy targets. I have no desire to ever fly one.

Wallstein
07-18-2004, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
I was zoom and booming a rude guy yesterday, and he spent five minutes trying to convince me (while I took the opportunity to zoom and boom his unmaneuvering, typing ****) that zoom and booming was for noobs, and that "real pilots" turn and burn. He said that turn and burning takes "real skill."

Now, I don't know about you, but zoom and boom never occurred to me until long after I had gotten turn and burn down pat. Turn and burn is the instinctive thing, but the more foolish. Zoom and boom is actually a far more advanced form of flying than turn and burn.

So what does everyone think? Who was the one ripping on the bong, him or me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, Benny! This is off the record and I appoligize to write on a wrong forum to you. I was flying for my first time the Ta-152 (If I remember the name correctly) anyway the German highaltitude fighter from the very last days of the war. It was my first time with that aeroplane. I have used Focke Wulf 190:s both with the "short nose" as well as with the "long nose", but not the Ta-152. The point is that normally I fly with Bf-109E/F or G (2,6, or 6/AS and seldom G10 or G14).

THIS HAPPENED YESTERDAY IN A ONLINE GAME: You (P-38)were approaching the isle after having - first scored a kill against a Bf-109 at high altitude and next, having got lost North of the isle). You had sighted the Isle and then I decided to try attacking you. We chatted a bit around these things while flying.

You were having no problems while I had nothing but problems. I had reached the altitude as high as 13.000 meters. I cruised toward your direction above the isle in speed of 280 km/h or so.

Now comes the interesting part: I am definetely not capable to pilot the Ta-152. It was my first time with this spesific bird at this altitude, at a combat situation and in a online game. I realized you blinking with the landing light and started to descend slightly in the meaning of to collect some speed. I estimated your altitude being something near 10.000 meters, which later turned out to be quite a right estimation. I tried to get the right position in front of you for to start diving toward you so, that at the moment of shooting I would be in a proper angle, slightly behind you and rather close. This is something I can do with messerschmitts, but this time everyhting went wrong.

First, I almost stalled at start of diving. Secondly I never got even close to you. Third: at the moment of planned shooting i was far behind you, my propeller heading to the direction from where you were coming. You were flying away from me behind me. At that time I was so shamed, that I decided to hide my intention of attacking.

Then I little by little cought you and saluted you with smoke from the wingtips (if I remember right). I climbed carefully, tried to quickly learn the specialities of this bird, Ta-152 etc. Then I asked if you wouldn`t mind if I attacked you. I felt a bit better now.

I was not anymore in a position for any kind of a highspeed attack. I just tried to catch you by turning and burning instead of even trying to boom and zoom or so. What came out of that? I soon found myself engaged by you, you outmaneuvering me and in 2 minutes you were chasing me. LOL

In the next 3-5 minutes or so I Stalled twice. We lost altitude from the initial 10.000 meters down to below 2000 meters. I was in a real trouble with you. Even there, at low altitude I just could not handle my aeroplane to get in a proper position for to aim and fire at you. I felt myself a true newbie (which I really am with Ta-152!)

Finally you had scored hits on me 2-3 times I suppose resulting in lowering my abilities to control my airplane. I knew that you were going to get me but then - suddenly - another German fighter attacked you and I got rid of you. You were shot down - definetely not by me as I had intentioned, but by someone else. Finally I,too, got another enemy enjoying me as his easy target, a crippled Ta-152 and shot me down.

Why did I wrote this? Because I thought you are the same Benny whom I had the honour to meet yesterday and because this is a good example of the difficulties conscerning the tactics of attacking from above with more or less high speed. In this case the aeroplane was totally new to me as I usually (read always) fly the Bf-109. Turning and turning again is something which anybody can do but aimed dive against a moving target (in our case from 13.000 meters down to 10.000 meters is far from easy.

Until we meet again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I just see P-38s as nice, crunchy targets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! And most everyone else does. The reason why is, that's generally what they are (although, God help the Zero that I encounter).

What I did is I made a mission set on the four island online map. One of the northern airbases has the P-40 E, P-39, and P-47, while the other has both versions of P-38. One of the southern airbases currently has all BF-109s of appropriate date (G-6 and later) except for the G-6/AS, but I am currently thinking of removing all of the BF-109s with boost because of the unrealistic way the game handles it and the huge advantage that they have over the P-38 because of it. The G-6/AS can absolutely outmaneuver and outrun the P-38 just like a superplane, although I would not think to call the G-6/AS a superplane.

The remaining base has Zeroes. Fun, fun, fun!

VF-10_Snacky
07-18-2004, 01:41 PM
Eventually every air to air fight will end up as a turn and burn on the deck if it goes on long enough. The key is to gain the advantage and keep it. It takes dicipline in many cases. You jump a plane and he dives for the deck, do I chase him down or do I climb out and maintain an altitude advantage? this is a decision you have to make. If he is flying a slower tighter turning plane then I keep the altitude advantage. If its a fast altitude fighter like a 190 or TA then I may chase him and keep the pressure on.

It's just my opinion, but I always felt the boom and zoom fight was more like a chess game where the turn and burn was like checkers.

Oh and boom and zoom doesn't mean you have to fly around at 10000m either. I get in servers and boom and zoom from 2500m sometimes because everyone starts fighting as soon as they go wheels up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killebrew1:
I tend to fly turn and burn--I suspect many people do because it's intuitive and requires less patience. Anyone former turn and burners now flying boom n zoom? Any tips?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/belushi_1941_4.jpg

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wallstein:
Why did I wrote this? Because I thought you are the same Benny whom I had the honour to meet yesterday and because this is a good example of the difficulties conscerning the tactics of attacking from above with more or less high speed. Until we meet again<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wally! Very good to see you here! I remember the fight very distinctly. I didn't think I was going to make it, and the only reason I did was that flat spin that took you down five kilometers. I was getting very immersed, getting lost like that, making a guess at the right direction, having someone else confirm that guess with coordinates, and finding the island. When I saw you, I was worried that I'd never make it back to base. I didn't have a clue that you initially tried to engage me, heh heh. My pilot did survive, by the way, no thanks to that blasted Ki!

Anyway, you were one of three pilots in that server that I am honored to have flown with or against. Say, was it you that I asked to surrender, or was that one of the other guys? I remember it was such a great fight, and you (or whoever it was I asked to surrender) seemed like such a good fellow that I hated to shoot you down, even if it is only a game. I forget the reply, but it was a very game one, with a sort of banter.

I cordially invite you to fly at the House of Odin, if we ever get it running again (Doomsayer's taking a break from IL-2 for some reason). Don't mind the intimidating looking rule list if you do come along, it's there so we have an excuse to kick jerks, mainly.

I salute you!

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 01:47 PM
More for Benny:

Some of the planes you mention, like La7, Ta-152, Yak 3, La5FN, P-63, 109G6/AS, Bf109 G10/14; these are all later war hotrods and they should give anybody a hard time, not just a P38.

Myself, I find late war boring in the extreme. It's just a case of pilots needing to use ueberoptimized planes to make up for their lack of grasp of fundamentals that'll make you deadly in any plane, even a mediocre one. That's just how I see it, and I know I'm well into the minority on this point (already the P-51 "shoehorn" mob is lighting torches outside my house and making threatening noises).

MEGILE
07-18-2004, 02:25 PM
Burn Stiglr at the stake!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

I like late war planes.. fighting in the best aircraft against the best aircraft.. lots of fun..Im not a historian so I dont get a kick out of flying 1941 mission over leningrad with Mig3s.. or whatever hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Yes before you say it, I am a n00b and I fly the uber-pony.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51lightj.jpg

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

Wallstein
07-18-2004, 04:45 PM
"---I cordially invite you to fly at the House of Odin, if we ever get it running again (Doomsayer's taking a break from IL-2 for some reason). Don't mind the intimidating looking rule list if you do come along, it's there so we have an excuse to kick jerks, mainly.

I salute you!---"[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much. I will try to get there. I`ll be rather busy till next thursday evening, but I will try to get there at least for a short visit, if nothing else.

By the way: It was me who refused to surrender; LOL.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 04:48 PM
By the way, I added a Word file with a blow-by-blow account of my maneuvers and my tactical thinking during that sortie. It's in the same .zip file as before.

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 05:04 PM
Awesome... By the way, I've not yet been able to record a good example of what I'm talking about. There are several reasons. One is that I always want to save the track - after the fight is over. And the other reason is that I'm not particularly looking forward to getting my butt kicked just so I can post the track on the forum. But I will do it as soon as possible.

If you want, I can post on right now of me versus artificial intelligence. It won't be a good example of the way I boom and zoom because artificial intelligence is an idiot, but it will show you the problem I was talking about in which the P-38 loses two thirds of its energy in a dive.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 05:07 PM
Heh....thank God I've got a Cougar; I used to have a joystick button for screenshots, now I have it mapped to start/stop recording tracks. Tracks are better than screenies anyway, since, if you really want, you can take as many screenies as you like later, while you watch the track....

OldMan____
07-18-2004, 05:36 PM
I made some tests against AI.. (4 vs 4) and you must be doing something wrong. I flew My 109 G6 late 43 and my 190A5 against both P38.. and was defeated twice!! The only other plane from 43 that ever made that to me was the Spit MK IX. I flew both sides.. and agree its not an easy plane to use effectively. But I managed to win AI while piloting it.. while Ai managed to beat me in inverse.. so something is strange.


Also I noticed that Usually the P38 is faster than my 109 if I don´t take a lot of care on energy, while the 190 made easy work reaching the p38.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

OldMan____
07-18-2004, 07:26 PM
Ok.. I re-read your post and think figure it out one important thing.

When you said we can keep with WEP /WM50 running forever.. it seems that you dont know the nasty effects of doing it (overheating.. that makes auto radiator open and loooose alot of speed).

based on that I made some test and found out that the P38 looses a LOT of speed when radiator is OPEN... so I tested playing witha conservative engine usage and using manual open;close radiator. That simple made me able to keep up with the desired speed (or very close to it).. Ok it is still a little bit slower to what your data says..

Tomorrow I will put on my page two tracks of my 4x P38J(3Veteran+me) fighting 4x190A9 ACE (a vastly superior plane) and same against 109G10. I won both using this technique.

Just try it.. If you still cant do it.. I advise passing some time piloting a 190.. its similar to p38 stile of fly (exception of roll) but a little bit more tricky...

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BennyMoore
07-18-2004, 08:10 PM
Artificial intelligence is completely, and I mean completely, irrelevant, because I can beat any artificial intelligence plane with my P-38. It's human players that I'm talking about.

By the way, the aircraft that I am the most familiar with is the BF-109 G-2. While it doesn't have boost, I also fly the BF-109 K-4 when I can't fly G-2, so I am well aware of its limitations and overheating problems. The fact is that they are not enough. By throttling down for a few seconds, you can completely remove the overheat - so much for the ten minute wait. By the way, I've done a few (admittedly not thorough) tests with radiators, and have come to the conclusion that opening or closing radiators does not affect airspeed more than ten kilometers per hour on the deck, and less, if any, at high altitude.

However, there's another problem. I (I would call myself a good pilot but not a great one) in my P-38 can beat the very best human pilot in an FW-190, with ease, every time (except for the Dora, which I've never fought before). It's even more undermodelled than the P-38! I'm very glad that I am not an FW-190 fanatic, or I'd be frothing at the mouth. So I don't know what you mean by the FW-190 A-9 being a vastly superior plane to the P-38. I've never been shot down by an FW-190 (barring having one put in the last few rounds in a five plane ******** on me and perhaps a few other such instances). They're undermodelled flying objects. The P-38 can outturn them, outrun them, and outclimb them. Being able to take them down in a P-38 isn't very conclusive.

Are you one of those who uses Hyperlobby exclusively? If not, then I think that we need to have a game or two on Ubi.com.

OldMan____
07-19-2004, 06:58 AM
I play HL only.. no game with ping &lt; 500 in Ubi for me. Ai is not irrelevant when you are testing speed techniques... (in doghfight it really is) specially because it senses when you shoot.. so BnZ is not that EASY with it.

In my teste I get 30 Km/h diff with radiator Open or closed during dive. That is a substatial difference. And in level flight it accelerates a lot faster with rad closed.

And no way a p38 outrun an A9 or even outmaneuver it (if flown correctly since it has the best roll of all fighters). Test speed with boost on .. it is faster than ANY 109 but the K4.. Also nothing has more firepower than an A9... 590 on the deck. It also can make ANY fighter disapear in a short burst (2 20mm + 2 30 mm + 2 13 mm) So it IS a vastly superior plane to p38. Although I agree it is undermodelled in the energy conservation field.

Some things You posted seem impossible.. no way a G2 can go with a P38 on the deck.. not even close to it!! It gets maximum 530 IAS .. usually not more than 515-520. Something is very strange. One importtant thing is that P38 reallly does not reach the speed stated in the OBj view, but can easily reach 550 IAS-560 IAS.
Only the faster 109 ones can do more than that, while most 190 can equal that while thes faster ones like A9 and the dora is the one that reaches 595 IAS easy.

And don't forget WM50 finishes (even if the signal on screen continues).. althoug it realy takes a lot to do that.


Afetr all this discussion I have to agree with something.. the P38 is a hell of a good target.. so big.. very easy to shoot at.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 10:53 AM
Benny, d'ja get that track to play finally?

LeadSpitter_
07-19-2004, 11:03 AM
p47s only boom n doom http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 11:06 AM
Smart P-47s, that's for sure.

If you have a Jug above you with smash, you have got PROBLEMS. That's when I truly FEAR a P-47.

If he's below me, I don't fear him at all...except maybe his ability to soak up my entire magazine and still be combat capable.

BennyMoore
07-19-2004, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
And no way a p38 outrun an A9 or even outmaneuver it (if flown correctly since it has the best roll of all fighters). Test speed with boost on .. it is faster than ANY 109 but the K4.. Also nothing has more firepower than an A9... 590 on the deck. It also can make ANY fighter disapear in a short burst (2 20mm + 2 30 mm + 2 13 mm) So it IS a vastly superior plane to p38. Although I agree it is undermodelled in the energy conservation field.

Some things You posted seem impossible.. no way a G2 can go with a P38 on the deck.. not even close to it!! It gets maximum 530 IAS .. usually not more than 515-520. Something is very strange. One importtant thing is that P38 reallly does not reach the speed stated in the OBj view, but can easily reach 550 IAS-560 IAS.
Only the faster 109 ones can do more than that, while most 190 can equal that while thes faster ones like A9 and the dora is the one that reaches 595 IAS easy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-38 J model can reach five hundred and fifty kilometers per hour on the deck, and the J model can only reach five hundred and twenty. The BF-109 G-2 can go five hundred and twenty on the deck, but is faster than the P-38 at high altitude.

If the FW-190 is truly faster than the P-38, then I've never seen an FW-190 pilot fly on full throttle, because even my poor undermodelled P-38 can catch them with easy.

As for firepower, I find it to be nearly completely irrelevent to the quality of a plane. You have to be able to get something in your sights to be able to use all that firepower. I don't remember the last time I've been in an FW-190's sights.

Roll rate only makes it difficult for someone to hit you. It can't help you get on someone's tail or get them in your sights. The FW-190 has nearly no elevator. I can't believe that the deadly FW-190 I've read about so often really was the flying target I find it to be. I can't prove that it's undermodelled (unlike the P-38, which I can), but if the FW-190 was as bad in real life as it is in the game, then there must have been a lot of really pathetic morons flying against it, to respect it so.

Anyway, the long and short of it is, I am not a hot shot pilot, but I feel perfectly safe in the presence of an enemy FW-190 in any situation other than one where I am outnumbered or critically damaged. And even if I were outnumbered, I think that I could survive easily if it's only FW-190s that I'm facing. Even when they're two kilometers above me, I feel safe. I've never had anything happen to make me rethink this safe feeling. I can afford to, and I do, make plenty of mistakes when fighting FW-190s, and still win.

Stiglr, I watched your track. I noticed that you lost a lot of energy with each kill; it made me wince. While I don't intend to belittle your flying, which was regardless a fine piece of work, I think that you were lucky that there were no capable planes flying against you.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 09:51 PM
Luck had very little to do with it. Not so much capable planes or not, it's just having enough energy to control the fight and to escape if necessary. I never needed to really struggle for alt, but there are times when you do. As I said you use as much energy as is still prudent for the current situation.

Energy fighting does not mean you've got a ton of smash at all times. It means you have *enough* smash.

Keep in mind those gunnery passes; all close range bursts, and if I'd been at max speed I'd have missed them all, and likely collided with at least one. I normally throttled BACK before diving in to control my closure rate. That's a net energy loss for sure, but since I knew there were no other planes in the area that would swoop in on me, I had PLENTY of energy for that situation.

And, you're wrong about roll rate. It CAN help you get on somebody's tail if you get into a tight, nasty scissors. Remember roll rate has a lot to do with how fast and how often a plane can change direction and can make up for some degrees of turn rate in some situations.

BennyMoore
07-19-2004, 10:09 PM
Well, I just did some testing with the FW-190 A-9. and I have to take back some of the things I said. It can outrun the P-38 on the deck, and can apparently outturn it at high speeds (over five hundred kilometers per hour). With boost on, it can go five hundred and seventy kilometers per hour on the deck. Radiator made no difference.

Really, I'm so impressed that I am going to make this my German plane when the BF-109 G-2 is not available instead of the BF-109 K-4.

Stiglr, while I get what you're saying, the P-38 still can't escape from certain opponents, no matter how much higher than them you are or how careful you are with your energy.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 11:04 PM
Has anybody been successful boom&zooming in a P-38??? I can't imagine that plane not being at least dangerous. And I do recall one guy who bounced me in an online server with a -38L. I didn't make it easy for him, but he got me just the same. I had no chance to turn the tables on him.

BennyMoore
07-20-2004, 12:00 AM
Oh, make no mistake, I get plenty of kills in it - most of them are near head-ons, although I don't do straight head-ons. Usually what happens is, as a last ditch effort, I start a high speed scissors, but then I use the airbrake to turn sharper than him just long enough so that I am facing him as he is almost facing him. Then I blast him away, if I can. Almost all of my kills are made from absurd angles (often greater than ninety degrees); for some reason, the P-38's twenty millimeter cannon does not like to hit targets from their six, even when you're lucky enough to be find a target whose six you can stay on long enough to get a shot in.

However, I don't think I've ever managed to pull off a boom and zoom in the P-38, because it loses so much of its energy and does not like to get it back quickly. Also, it's such a huge target that when you're trying to zoom climb, they invariably pull up their nose until they stall, and spray you a good one.

Moreover, if you don't get the kill right away, you are going to lose. They catch up to you so very quickly - many, many times faster than they catch up to my BF-109 G-2. In fact, in my BF-109 G-2, I can keep my advantage indefinitely against most planes (planes like the La-7, Ki-84, and Yak are noteable exceptions).

The P-38 L is very slow (five hundred and twenty kilometers per hour on the deck), so the logical course would be to take the P-38 J (five hundred and fifty kilometers per hour on the deck). However, the J simply cannot boom and zoom because of the compression and lack of airbrake. It's even worse than the BF-109 K-4 for dives.

Now, I could use Stilgr's tactic of losing speed to avoid going into compression, but your target can easily jink your shot regardless, and then you're in big trouble. Remember, they can pull up and shoot you even when you have a huge energy advantage, and it would be worse if you had sacrificed speed for a good firing window.

Again, I'll have to e-mail tracks if I can ever find a server that doesn't have the bases set two kilometers apart like today. I can't get any altitude in that situation before I'm overrun by Ki-84s and La-7.

Anyway, I've yet to see anyone posting tracks of multiple successful boom and zooms with the P-38 against decent pilots in Ki-84s, Yaks, or other such superplanes. Everyone claims that the problem must lie with my skill (completely possible), but no one seems eager to demonstrate their own.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2004, 12:48 AM
Well, for one, I wouldn't count a P-38 as an ueberplane, and as such, untermodeled or not, it's gonna struggle against the cream of the crop: your La7s, Yak3s, 109K4s and such.

I don't have any answer for your speed problems, as I just don't know that plane. Maybe somebody else can weigh in.

As for your choice of arenas, find one where you can start off with some separation between bases: take off in the OPPOSITE direction as the action, take some time and get some altitude while you're not under duress. Some people find this "boring", but they're usually very "interested" when they later become my victims because of their careless, low-attention-span flying style. I normally won't take off from a vulched field at all; I find a base as far back from the front as possible and liesurely fly in while getting 3km or so under my wings. This sets me up to win over 75% of my fights, just having alt and E.

Some argue that an easy b&z kill isn't as "challenging" as one scored on the deck with your hair on fire and turning circles like a madman. To each his own: I find they all count the same on the ledger, and I also find that some of the best turn 'n burners can't keep up a decent Kill/Death ratio: for every kill they get, they give up one (or more). And, as "easy" as they say B&Z is, there seems to be a lack of people who have the discipline to do it succesfully, sortie in and sortie out.

Besides, I can also fight my way out of a down-on-the-deck "phonebooth knifefight" on occasion, but I use it as an ace in the hole. It's not the way to success in the long run.

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2004, 12:58 AM
At the risk of being accused of being a Targetware troll again, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif here's a thread you might want to look at, Benny:

Ah....The Lightning (http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4286). It's a little discussion over at the other place on the near eve of the appearance of the P-38 family.

Maybe you ought to take a gander at Target:Rabaul and see if the P-38s there are better or worse modeled or if they match your expectations. The new version is imminent: no promises, but I expect it this week.

OldMan____
07-20-2004, 04:48 AM
Think you did not get a small point benny. Radiator o not change a lot the speed while level. But try see how your acceleration changes in dive (so .. as final os this your speed). This way you can keep your energy higher.

Some planes cannot reach real full speed level.. they need a small dive to reach it, then level to keep it. The P38 gets 15 IAS more this way and the 190 about 20 IAS. So you can squeeze a little bit more speed this way.


And beleive me.. firepower is VERY important when you need to bring a P47 or FW190 down. Try to bring one of those down with a G2.. you can do it.. but not whithout a lucky shot or unloading all ammo at him.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Rab03
07-20-2004, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
I made some tests against AI.. (4 vs 4) and you must be doing something wrong. I flew My 109 G6 late 43 and my 190A5 against both P38.. and was defeated twice!! The only other plane from 43 that ever made that to me was the Spit MK IX. I flew both sides.. and agree its not an easy plane to use effectively. But I managed to win AI while piloting it.. while Ai managed to beat me in inverse.. so something is strange.
Also I noticed that Usually the P38 is faster than my 109 if I don´t take a lot of care on energy, while the 190 made easy work reaching the p38.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bf-109 G-6 all time favorite. Like Galland said "Fits like a glove". BnZ against p38 can be done, but applying fast rolls and turns beats them like nothing. Also, Bf-109 G is superior in pulling up after high speed dive (700kmph+).

HART_dreyer
07-20-2004, 07:30 AM
I'll try this bird out and make some tracks.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2004, 08:13 AM
Note for old man:

Radiator opening doesn't change speed a whole lot, but has a big effect on maneuverability.

You open those flaps on a 109, and watch Oleg's Banana Peel snap stall begin to happen with dismaying frequency when you try to roll or turn!!!

HART_dreyer
07-20-2004, 08:47 AM
After only 3 attempts to fly the P-38 against Ki's I've come to the conclusion that this is an horrible aircraft and is not fit for air combat what so ever.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

DINGHAO
07-20-2004, 09:11 AM
Just flying off line, Ki84 is a great BnZ plane.
A great all around plane actually. Just a bit fragile. My favorite match is Ki84b v. P51D20

I like how the 190s handle, but CANT SEE THE TARGET when trying to BnZ from over 1 KM advantage, without getting too steep.

_________
James H. Howard, MOH
"I seen my duty, and I done it."

wojtek_m
07-20-2004, 01:17 PM
Radiator opening doesn't change speed a whole lot, but has a big effect on maneuverability.

Are you sure about that? Never heard of it... I mean the effect on maneuverabvility - I can't logically explain why it should have any effect on maneuverability??? It doesnt change the air flow at the wings at all... please explain!

Wojtek

OldMan____
07-20-2004, 01:39 PM
No way.. it does make difference on speed. I feel nothing on maneuver .. And I just remade the tests

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BennyMoore
07-20-2004, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DINGHAO:
Just flying off line, Ki84 is a great BnZ plane.
A great all around plane actually. Just a bit fragile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You missed the point a while back; we were referring to the P-38 and not the Ki-84. No one is making claims that the Ki-84 is undermodelled! Hell, it's overmodelled.

Also, if you think it's fragile, then you must be a tank driver.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rab03:
BnZ against p38 can be done, but applying fast rolls and turns beats them like nothing. Also, Bf-109 G is superior in pulling up after high speed dive (700kmph+).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're also missing the point. You both don't seem to realize that no one's saying that it's hard to kill the P-38. I'm saying that it's just about impossible to kill certain other planes in the P-38.

Anyway, you don't need to zoom and boom a P-38, because a BF-109 G-6/AS is faster, rolls better, and turns better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
After only 3 attempts to fly the P-38 against Ki's I've come to the conclusion that this is an horrible aircraft and is not fit for air combat what so ever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh! That's exactly my point. I love the aircraft in real life, and in real life it was deadly (being the highest scoring Army Air Corp aircraft in World War Two as well as the mount of the highest scoring American ace ever). However, in the game it is clearly porked more than a bit. I don't see why people have problems with this statement. I am currently working on figures from the P-38 pilot's handbook, after which I shall start another thread on it (regardless of whether I find it is undermodelled or not; and if it's not, then I will have to apologize).

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2004, 10:18 PM
Wojtek:

I most certainly does change the airflow UNDER the wings. Opening those big boxy coolers most certainly will cause you to stall more readily.

Try it yourself... uh, offline...

wojtek_m
07-21-2004, 03:20 AM
I most certainly does change the airflow UNDER the wings. Opening those big boxy coolers most certainly will cause you to stall more readily.

Yeah you stall quicker, 'cause you're loosing speed quicker, but should it really have any effect on stall speed, turnrate, -radius etc.?

BennyMoore
07-21-2004, 03:52 AM
Well, I have a track of me starting out well above three enemies and attempting to run away. Two of them went after lesser targets, and the third (a BF-109 G-6/AS) followed me, climbed up to me, and caught up to me. He slowed down four hundred meters to cool down his engine, and I sort of climbed a bit, then finally did a loop back on him, which failed due to "Oleg's banana peel stall." I eventually blew his wing off in a straight headon, which displeases me because I have a policy of not doing straight headons. But perhaps you can tell me what I was doing wrong with my energy management.

Should I e-mail you the track?

OldMan____
07-21-2004, 05:16 AM
Can you post it online in any download site?

We can analise.

I still think the P38 is not one of the best planes in game, but is not impossible to be somehow effective with it. I still prefer my Dora, but also still prefer the P38 over the P47. Also prefer it over P51, cause 51 is too good so that the game looses all its fun.


Also the P38 operates like the 190.. it CANNOT shake someone on his back, so MUST fly in pairs.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

BennyMoore
07-21-2004, 11:41 PM
At least the FW-190 can outrun things.

Actually, I can shake people pretty easily in my P-38 L, using the dive brake after a slight dive, but the problem is that you lose all your energy when you do it, so that you are then unable to maneuver. And by the time your speed is back up, he's on your six again. And you have less speed and altitude than the first time. Now, I can get anyone to overshoot with ease, but they get a good shot at you in the meantime. As with any aircraft, getting them to overshoot should be a last effort, even after barrel rolls and stick wiggling.

I also intend on recording more of these, hopefully with me doing things right (although I'll still lose). The problem is, I no longer do the right boom and zoom tactics in the P-38 that I employ in every other plane, because I know I'll lose. So, even though I intend on making a demonstration track out of it, I end up ditching proper boom and zoom in favor of my semi-effective turn fightish thing. I don't quite turn fight, but I can't zoom and boom; I don't know what I do, actually. I guess it's actually turn fighting, but it's very, very short lasting. The outcome is decided within a single turn or less, and there is no endless turning until you are down to the deck as is the case with two turners. What usually happens is that I make a high speed pass at him, often below him (I have a much higher success rate when I'm zooming up at him from his twelve than zooming down on him on his six for some reason), and try to make a high deflection shot. If this doesn't work, I start a high speed turn, then when it becomes apparent that he is halfway between facing away from me and facing me, I engage the infernal dive brake for a second or so. Then I try again to do the high deflection angle thing.

Almost none of my kills are made from six oh clock. Even though I turn fight, my objective is always to get the two of us facing each other, or rather me facing him and him almost facing me. I don't try to get on his six, because not only do I know that I can't do it, but even if I did, I wouldn't be able to stay there even for a second, and I would not be able to turn hard enough even to lead him without using the stinking dive brake, upon which he would zoom away. So, it's near head-ons that get me kills.

Again, I'll have to record some more. No, I can't host files. I can only e-mail it to someone who then will hopefully be kind enough to host it for me.