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View Full Version : I-16 vs A5M with the Soviet Volunteer Group!



M_Gunz
03-04-2010, 11:14 PM
The Soviet Volunteer Group was the ostensibly volunteer Soviet air force to support the Republic of China during the Second Sino-Japanese War between 1937 and 1941. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Volunteer_Group)

Soviet Fighters in the Sky of China (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_fighters_in_the_sky_of_ch.htm)

Enough different planes there to base interesting missions? By now there might even be a map and missions.

M_Gunz
03-04-2010, 11:14 PM
The Soviet Volunteer Group was the ostensibly volunteer Soviet air force to support the Republic of China during the Second Sino-Japanese War between 1937 and 1941. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Volunteer_Group)

Soviet Fighters in the Sky of China (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_fighters_in_the_sky_of_ch.htm)

Enough different planes there to base interesting missions? By now there might even be a map and missions.

Romanator21
03-04-2010, 11:26 PM
There is a Khalkin Gol map specifically for that. There is another map that has Manchuria for Sino-Japan conflicts. I've not seen any missions for that conflict though. There were quite a diverse listing of planes in that war, most of which are not available. I can think of the A5M, Ki-21, Db-3, Sb-2, and P-36 right off the top of my head.

Treetop64
03-04-2010, 11:33 PM
I'm sure the term "volunteer" had a different meaning in Stalin's Russia.

M_Gunz
03-05-2010, 12:02 AM
Read from the second link please Treetop? You know the better military pilots sought combat experience?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Pilots sent from all districts for the Far Eastern special aviation units were inspected by “Spaniards” - Kombrigs Ya. V. Smushkevich and P. I. Pumpur. Already during the scrupulous vetting of individual preparedness, pilots of the 9 Independent Fighter Squadron {OIAE} Named For K. E. Voroshilov surmised that the selected were going to the war in Spain. Mainly the old-timers were chosen, men who had served in the squadron since Smolensk, where at the beginning of the 1930s Ya. V. Smushkevich was Komissar of the air brigade, and also several young pilots - D. A. Kudymov, Korestelev, Bredikhin, Kuznetsov, and others. From the 32 OIAE of the Pacific Ocean Fleet six were chosen, among them A. Z. Dushin, S. Remizov, Manuilov, and others. On the command staff of the air group were included several test pilots among them A. N. Chernoburov. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I read there that they had more volunteers than seats.

Same thing for the AVG pilots. Not only extra pay but a chance to get in the fight was motivation.

Sillius_Sodus
03-05-2010, 09:15 PM
I'm working on a campaign about those guys. Don't know when I'll be finished though.

Some screenshots here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...533/m/4251082508/p/2 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/50910533/m/4251082508/p/2)

ElAurens
03-06-2010, 08:50 AM
I have long advocated for opening this area of the conflict to IL2.

The problems are a lack of quality maps, (Khalkin Gol is a tiny little map and really useless for this scenario, Manchuria is also not quite correct for this as the action needed is more the area of operations that would later be taken up by the AVG.) and far too few aircraft for the Chinese Air Force.

The Curtiss Hawk III biplane is an absolute must have for the CAF, and the Japanese are totally lacking any of their close support aircraft, and the squadron of Fiat BR20s that they operated in China.

Creating the proper map for China would take at least 9 months to a year, and then we still would need at least 10 completely new aircraft types, assuming you used those mod aircraft that we already have.

It would be a daunting task to say the least, and with SOW around the corner I can't see it happening any time soon.

Wildnoob
03-06-2010, 09:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
I have long advocated for opening this area of the conflict to IL2.

The problems are a lack of quality maps, (Khalkin Gol is a tiny little map and really useless for this scenario, Manchuria is also not quite correct for this as the action needed is more the area of operations that would later be taken up by the AVG.) and far too few aircraft for the Chinese Air Force.

The Curtiss Hawk III biplane is an absolute must have for the CAF, and the Japanese are totally lacking any of their close support aircraft, and the squadron of Fiat BR20s that they operated in China.

Creating the proper map for China would take at least 9 months to a year, and then we still would need at least 10 completely new aircraft types, assuming you used those mod aircraft that we already have.

It would be a daunting task to say the least, and with SOW around the corner I can't see it happening any time soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+ 1

Really a shame, the Sino-Japanese War is my favorite theater. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ElAurens
03-06-2010, 09:35 AM
This would have been a really good "Forgotten Battle" for Oleg to sink his teeth into.

And it would have a good draw in Oleg's home market as well.

I hope that SOW, and myself, live long enough for this to be done in the new sim.

Wildnoob
03-06-2010, 10:02 AM
I dream with the day when I gonna fly the G3M and A5M. For SOW this gonna be fantastic, but I still have hope to see the S-J war in IL2.

M_Gunz
03-06-2010, 09:27 PM
I was just thinking hey, not your usual matchup with early Russian vs Japanese.]
You guys think of this in much more complete terms than I did, and paint a much better picture too!

Oh, not this Hawk we have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-36_Hawk), but this Hawk, the Goshawk we don't. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_Hawk_III)

That would be brutal vs A5M or even Ki-21 on anyone playing as a Chinese aviator!

JG53Frankyboy
03-07-2010, 01:37 AM
in the VOW "R" online war we had at the beginning a Nomonhan campaign with Ki-27 and Polikarpows - it was a blast .D these planes with fixed propellers have almost a negative acceleration http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
unfortunatly the flyable I-15bis comes to late for that


http://www.vowreloaded.de/inde...ion=mgroup_list&id=3 (http://www.vowreloaded.de/index.php?page=mcenter&action=mgroup_list&id=3)

csThor
03-07-2010, 01:48 AM
I don't think you'll see anything re: Sino-Japanese war from Maddox Games. Why? Because the Chinese government doesn't allow nationalist chinese markings or even the nation "Nationalist China" in any game - otherwise these game discs would be confiscated.

M_Gunz
03-07-2010, 03:17 AM
In at least parts of Europe an ancient good luck symbol is verboten but
I suddenly get the feeling that ideology-policing is far stronger and
wider in the far east. Perhaps they are just a few decades ahead of the
New World Order Of Total Intolerance And Servitude?

They don't have to ask "Who are the brain police?". The very question is
probably forbidden. Decades ahead, total(itarian) intolerance is only
gathering momentum to become law in another country I can think of, but
can't mention as that very idea is "dangerous" --- ie.....

IE, it's no good pointing from one intolerant viewpoint that another even
more strongly intolerant viewpoint is "wrong". You either embrace freedom
to think and express or you don't.

Sorry. I can't express how badly I feel about the Chinese restrictions
while in my own country I watch a growing trend in the same direction.

Wildnoob
03-07-2010, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
I don't think you'll see anything re: Sino-Japanese war from Maddox Games. Why? Because the Chinese government doesn't allow nationalist chinese markings or even the nation "Nationalist China" in any game - otherwise these game discs would be confiscated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

seriously?

For god's sake, this is unbeliviable...

Erkki_M
03-07-2010, 06:42 AM
Unfortunately the van Rosen's cross is also in the list of "banned symbols".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_von_Rosen

Every FAF aircraft had it during Winter and Continuation wars, and its still in the squadron emblems as well as the President's flag; it has nothing to do with the Nazi swastika, but is still, well, a swastika. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

M_Gunz
03-07-2010, 12:00 PM
That symbol is 1000's of years old -world wide- as a good thing and in terms of history, poof, it's screwed.
I used to like rainbows. 1000's of years as a symbol of hope and promise, and because of poofs, it's screwed.

I wish that self-interest groups would invent their own bloody symbols and words and quit tarnishing the ones
we already have!

Outlaw---
03-07-2010, 06:12 PM
Interestingly, Chenault learned much of the tactics he proposed to the AVG from the Soviets who flew before them. I say, "proposed" b/c most of the time the AVG was not able to use these tactics as the "early" warning system did not give them the time needed to reach an advantageous altitude very often.

--Outlaw.

M_Gunz
03-07-2010, 07:32 PM
Every tactic the AVG used did not depend on dropping from above. Not staying to turn fight
with better slow-turning enemies can be practiced even from a disadvantage, as Tex Hill
did at least once though IIRC his plane did get shot up.

Outlaw---
03-07-2010, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Every tactic the AVG used did not depend on dropping from above. Not staying to turn fight
with better slow-turning enemies can be practiced even from a disadvantage, as Tex Hill
did at least once though IIRC his plane did get shot up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a general statement. I did not intend to imply that the ONLY tactic he attempted to instill in the AVG was DFA. It was, however, the only advantage they had in attacking escorted bombing raids. Sure they could usually dive away, but, most of the time that put them out of the fight. The initial bombing raids were unescorted but the Japanese quickly added fighter support, usually in much greater numbers than the defenders. This made it extremely difficult to get more than one firing pass at the bombers without putting yourself in at least one bandit's performance envelope. When the Oscar (what the AVG called a Zero) began showing up in numbers the odds got worse.

--Outlaw.

psykopatsak
03-08-2010, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
I'm sure the term "volunteer" had a different meaning in Stalin's Russia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In soviet russia, Air force Volunteers YOU!

Sillius_Sodus
03-08-2010, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by psykopatsak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
I'm sure the term "volunteer" had a different meaning in Stalin's Russia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In soviet russia, Air force Volunteers YOU! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The trouble with fighting in China is, an hour after the battle you want to take off again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif