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monsieurdavid
06-24-2004, 04:00 PM
I started this question on another thread, a thread which had lost its topic almost entirely. (It was subsequently suggested that I start a new thread ;-) My question has to do with "Age Writing" and the "Linking Book", and my lack of understanding of core Myst mythology will become immediately evident. The act of creating a Linking Book involves describing (apparently in SOME detail ;-) the Age so you then have access to it. But I read on one of these threads that you aren't actually creating the Age by describing it, the Age already exists. Is this correct? If so, SOME coincidence that if I just start wildly describing some fantastic reality -- BING! it just happens to already exist "out there". Have I completely misunderstood the process? Thanks!

monsieurdavid
06-24-2004, 04:00 PM
I started this question on another thread, a thread which had lost its topic almost entirely. (It was subsequently suggested that I start a new thread ;-) My question has to do with "Age Writing" and the "Linking Book", and my lack of understanding of core Myst mythology will become immediately evident. The act of creating a Linking Book involves describing (apparently in SOME detail ;-) the Age so you then have access to it. But I read on one of these threads that you aren't actually creating the Age by describing it, the Age already exists. Is this correct? If so, SOME coincidence that if I just start wildly describing some fantastic reality -- BING! it just happens to already exist "out there". Have I completely misunderstood the process? Thanks!

frankenscarf
06-24-2004, 04:43 PM
monsieurdavid, I'll do my best to explain that which I currently understand about the enigmatic workings of the Ages.

1. There exists a Descriptive Book. This book describes an age in detail using D'ni writing techniques that have never fully been explained.

2. There exist Linking Books. These books link into an Age described by the (you guessed it) Descriptive Book. If the Descriptive Book is destroyed, the Linking Books will become useless.

3. As for the rest, unless I'm mistaken, it is still a matter of debate as to whether or not Ages already exist within the quantum realm of infinite possibility or if they are in fact created by the writing of the Descriptive Book.

I hope this helps in some small manner.

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Lotto49
06-24-2004, 05:29 PM
Part of Gehn's "problem" was that he viewed himself as a God, creating new worlds at a whim (this is made clear in the Book of Atrus).

The other view is the one held by Atrus (also in tBoA), that in fact there is an infinite number of Ages that already exist, some with only extremely subtle differences. This concept is also mentioned further in one of the appendixes of the Riven strategy guides.

Basically, it's up to you what you think, depending on how much you think of the whole quantam business. However, by thinking of writing descriptive books as creating Ages, you are putting yourself in the same pigeonhole as Gehn, which you may not want to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hope that helps.

Lottie

JustBrett
06-24-2004, 08:29 PM
You might want to check out the Linking FAQ (http://www.dnidesk.com/linkingfaq.html) at the D'ni Desk Reference (http://www.dnidesk.com/). They've assembled all the info on linking from the books, statements by RAWA, etc. You can also find lots of good info at the D'ni Pedia (http://www.dpwr.net/), another super reference site.

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Mowog
06-24-2004, 08:43 PM
Good question. I always subscribed to Atrus's belief that ages are not created by The Art. On the other hand, we see from the stories that they can be changed by writing, either for better or for worse... witness Gehn's destruction of an age in The Book of Atrus simply by changing the descriptive text in such a way that the climate became unstable. Then there was Atrus, writing incessantly in an attempt to stabilize Riven long enough for Catherine and the native Rivenese to escape.

Like I said, good question!

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Srikandi
06-24-2004, 10:26 PM
Taking a philosophical perspective, one might think of the Ages one links to not as "worlds", but as "possible worlds". A descriptive book could match an Age which exists in any place... at any time... in any universe (or "dimension", or branch in the "tree of possibilities"). This view basically holds that there is an infinite number of such worlds, and that any description which does not contradict itself will describe some world. The trick in Writing is to write a stable (and safe) world.

Fits pretty well with the sci-fi convention that every choice splits the universe into two, one corresponding to each outcome. That is presumably the kind of thing meant by the "tree of possibilities" (which corresponds to the "Great Tree" mentioned in several of the games).

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monsieurdavid
06-25-2004, 08:58 AM
Thanks! These are very generous responses. I thought people would just roll their eyes, and say how could ANYbody NOT know THAT? ;-) It seems to me that maybe this mythology wants to have it both ways, and if you think about it, how would you know the difference? Was the reality you wrote about already in place, or did it materialize while you were writing it? I figure if you can describe a caustic orange-colored world where the mountain bases follow the horizon, suspended in the air, and that world is already pre-fabricated "out there", then anything goes! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JustBrett
06-25-2004, 09:38 AM
It seems like it shouldn't be too hard to do an experiment that would pretty much settle the issue. If Writing a descriptive Book creates a world, then, logically, destroying the Book should destroy the world. In reverse, if destroying the Book does NOT destroy the world, then it probably did not create the world to begin with.

So, take two people -- call them "One" and "Two" -- and two Ages -- call them "A" and "B". Have One link to B, carrying a linking Book back to A. Have Two then destroy the Book for Age B. If One is still able to link back to A, then B still exists, even though the Book was destroyed. (Of course, nobody will ever be able to link to B again.)

Now, you might say that nobody would be crazy enough to do this experiment on purpose. Who would link to Age B if there's a chance they would be destroyed? Ah, but has that situation ever happened accidentally? In all the long history of D'ni, has there ever been a case where a Book is destroyed, but someone has later linked back from that Age, proving that the Age itself still exists?

There may, in fact, be such a case. Remember that, in BoT, the Book for Veovis's final prison Age was destroyed. But, A'gaeris had already gone to that Age with a linking Book, so both of them were able to link out of the "destroyed" Age. (There is a slight flaw in this logic, because one could argue that Veovis and A'gaeris had time to escape the Age before its Book was destroyed.)

I like to think there are enough confirmed examples of this kind of accident in the history of Garternay and D'ni to support the belief of most D'ni that the Art does not actually create the Ages.

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moulinoux
06-25-2004, 12:30 PM
what if somebody destroys the earth descriptive book thingy!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

wouldnt be good if we'll wanish then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


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click on this link
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monsieurdavid
06-25-2004, 01:31 PM
Okay. Frankenscarf has educated me to the fact that there are two kinds of Books, Descriptive and Linking. Now, if the Age already exists, and isn't created by writing it, then what is the purpose of the Descriptive Book? Seems like you would only need a way to get there, the Linking Book. Also, so far we've only talked about the possibility of the Age being destroyed by destroying the Descriptive Book. What about the other way 'round? What happened to the Riven Descriptive Book when Riven disintegrated? Did the writing disappear from the pages, or did the whole book go up in a puff of smoke? I would like to point out at this juncture that I am not trying to poke holes in the mythology, I'm just confused. (Later I want to get into time travel, but let's clear this up first!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Alahmnat
06-25-2004, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monsieurdavid:
Okay. Frankenscarf has educated me to the fact that there are two kinds of Books, Descriptive and Linking. Now, if the Age already exists, and isn't created by writing it, then what is the purpose of the Descriptive Book? Seems like you would only need a way to get there, the Linking Book.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. In order to link to an Age, you need a huge amount of description in order to pinpoint a specific place in the multiverse that you want to go to. Descriptive Books also operate in an inherently different way than Linking Books.

A Linking Book always takes you to where it was written, while a Descriptive Book links you to the place it describes. That's why you can't get away with not using Descriptive Books. Linking Books are also, by definition, much smaller than Descriptive Books, as they don't need to have all of the description for an entire Age in them. They act more like a shortcut that directs you back to the place where the Book was written.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, so far we've only talked about the possibility of the Age being destroyed by destroying the Descriptive Book. What about the other way 'round? What happened to the Riven Descriptive Book when Riven disintegrated? Did the writing disappear from the pages, or did the whole book go up in a puff of smoke? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Changes to the Age, be they natural or unnatural, have no effect on the Book or its description. However, they do alter the appearance of the Linking Panel, which is a realtime preview of what the Age looks like.

If you've ever played Myst III: Exile, you've seen the Riven Descriptive Book after the Age fell apart. Atrus keeps it in his study, behind his desk http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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monsieurdavid
06-25-2004, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...while a Descriptive Book links you to the place it describes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm... so you can link with a Descriptive Book providing you can pick it up ;-)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you've ever played Myst III: Exile, you've seen the Riven Descriptive Book after the Age fell apart. Atrus keeps it in his study, behind his desk. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I missed that detail, but then I might have been distracted by Saavedro chucking flaming lanterns across the room ;-) But could you open that Riven Descriptive Book? Bet the writing had disappeared http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Lotto49
06-25-2004, 03:06 PM
A descriptive book doesn't "link" you anywhere - you can't travel to an age using only a descriptive book.

The descriptive book is the bridge to the Age, therefore if it is destroyed, the linking book is useless.

Also, the Riven book in Exile is a linking book, not the descriptive book. You can open it, and see flames etc. because Riven is destroyed. (I may be wrong about this, but as I remember it descriptive books don't have a visual pannel, only words)

The Riven descriptive book... I don't know what it would be like after the events of Riven.. can the text change by itself? Or would it be possible to write a new linking book that would link to an un-damaged Riven?

I'm just musing here, but *actually*, the problems that made Riven fall apart (written by Gehn) were there all along.. so maybe the writing remains the same because Riven's eventual destruction is clear in the writing because it cannot sustain itself.

I could go on like this for ages... but I'll spare you all that :P

Sorry if I've said anything completely stupid, please feel free to correct.

Devokan80
06-25-2004, 03:21 PM
Actually I'm almost positive that you can link with a Descriptive book, because you have to make a linking book in the age you want to link to. So you make a Descriptive book and then link to the age, and then write a linking book in that age. Also the Riven book that Is in Atrus' office and the one he was writting in in Myst is the actual descriptive book of Riven, because he was writting in it to make changes to keep Riven stable, and you can't make changes to a world by altering a linking book.

Lotto49
06-25-2004, 04:19 PM
Devokan: Just checked the D'ni desk reference - you're quite right. Apologies.

monsieurdavid
06-25-2004, 05:14 PM
Scanned the D'ni Desk Reference a minute ago myself, and it seems to me that if you can alter the Age by tinkering with the Descriptive Book, that tends to support the idea that writing the Descriptive Book means you actually created the Age. Comment?

matt myat
06-25-2004, 07:34 PM
I think the theory goes that if you alter an age you will acutally describe (and therefore connect to) a different world (however subtle the change). This tends to be supported by occasions where Atrus and/or Gehn (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) have found problems in the ages they have written but have refrained from making changes because they would then point to different worlds (in the infinite multiverse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) and they would have lost the relationship they had established with the natives, (or even the natives themselves) since they would actually be in a different world and so have no memory of being visited (because this "similar" world wasn't visited)

hmmm... yeah confusing stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

earthangell
06-25-2004, 08:32 PM
my head is spinning from all this!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif but there's no spinning smilie!

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Alahmnat
06-26-2004, 01:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monsieurdavid:
Scanned the D'ni Desk Reference a minute ago myself, and it seems to me that if you can alter the Age by tinkering with the Descriptive Book, that tends to support the idea that writing the Descriptive Book means you actually created the Age. Comment?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is where the debate really rages, actually. The theory some (including myself) subscribe to is that linking to an Age locks down certain quantum waveforms (I refer you to the Shroedinger's Cat experiment... google for it if you've no idea what I'm talking about). Altering an Age through the Descriptive Book collapses different quantum waveforms, causing various effects, some likely (changing water temperature or soil composition), others immensely improbable (like giant metal daggers appearing out of nowhere... ref: Book of Atrus). However, attempting to alter a waveform which has already been collapsed has (at best) the result of branching the Link into a different Age as the Book travels back up the Tree of Possibilities and down another path including the specified change, or (at worst) ripping the Age apart due to an unstable quantum mechanical infrastructure (wow, I could write Trek scripts... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

I think this emote pretty well expresses the effects of contemplating Linking Theory for too long: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Or maybe this one... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif (though I think that's better reserved for thoe people just watching this conversation from a distance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

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Phen1
06-26-2004, 08:25 AM
And you guys seem to have surprisingly missed something. If the theory is true that the books link to ages that already exist, then that would mean if the book is destroyed, the age still exists, which would explain perfectly the dillemma of how Sirrus and Achenar returned!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Perhaps, although Atrus had destroyed the links to their prison ages, Sirrus and/or Achenar were able to write a link BACK to wherever Atrus was! Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not sure: did they have any skill in writing?

~~PHEN~~

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Mowog
06-26-2004, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not sure: did they have any skill in writing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would guess that they did. We can imply from the story in Exile that Atrus had prepared the training ages as part of his sons' apprenticeship. So he was instructing them in The Art, but there's no indication as to how far they had progressed.

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monsieurdavid
06-26-2004, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think the theory goes that if you alter an age you will actually describe (and therefore connect to) a different world (however subtle the change). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If Atrus subscribes to the belief that infinite numbers of worlds exist out there, and that describing them only accesses them, and does not by process of describing them actually create them, then he ought to be comfortable destroying not only the Linking Books to his sons' Prison Ages, but also the Descriptive Books. But that wouldn't really solve anything, assuming those peevish boys DO have writing skills, since they could just write a Descriptive Book to Tomahna and they're right back to making trouble. But they'd want to be so VERY precise in their writing, because they'd want to get back to THEIR Atrus, the CORRECT Atrus, 'cause you don't want to harass the WRONG Atrus on the WRONG Tomahna http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

frankenscarf
06-26-2004, 02:13 PM
I'm sure this isn't going to help in the least but I feel obligated, nevertheless, to mention it.

If you've played Uru, more than likely you've heard of the Great Tree. If you've read Srikandi's post, you'll recall this:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Fits pretty well with the sci-fi convention that every choice splits the universe into two, one corresponding to each outcome. That is presumably the kind of thing meant by the "tree of possibilities" (which corresponds to the "Great Tree" mentioned in several of the games). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given this, I would hesitate, for only a second, to propose that the conscious decision to destroy an Age would result in a possibility wherein the Age was, in fact, not destroyed. This may mean, however, that the version of the Age that wasn't destroyed was in fact never affected by Writing in the first place and merely exists as it always would have.

Now that I've gone crosseyed I think I'll leave it at that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

EDIT - Whoops, I can't just leave it at that, I must add that there are Ages written for specific purposes in which the rules that would normally apply for most Ages do, in fact, not apply. One example is the Age of Gahreesen, in Uru. This age was created/described in such a way that links in and out were impossible to create other than those allowed by the Age's writer(s). So, it may be that prison ages such as the ones in which Sirrus and Achenar were trapped contain similar restrictions for just that reason. Just something to ponder.

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Alahmnat
06-26-2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monsieurdavid:
But that wouldn't really solve anything, assuming those peevish boys DO have writing skills, since they could just write a Descriptive Book to Tomahna and they're right back to making trouble. But they'd want to be so VERY precise in their writing, because they'd want to get back to THEIR Atrus, the CORRECT Atrus, 'cause you don't want to harass the WRONG Atrus on the WRONG Tomahna http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that the odds of locating one out of a near-infinite score of nearly-identical Earths in order to link back without a provided linking book are so near zero you'd need an Infinite Improbability Drive to obtain the proper result, I'm betting S&A are otherwise freed. Even with the most precise description imaginable (which they wouldn't know how to Write, having never been to Earth), there are a near-infinite set of worlds that would match it. Additionally, based on the material presented in and surrounding Exile, it's implied that while S&A were instructed in The Art, they never attained mastery of it to the level required to write Books.

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JustBrett
06-26-2004, 05:28 PM
Even if S&A could Write, what are the chances that their prison Ages contain the necessary materials for them to make blank Books and Ink? Would Atrus Write an Age that contains the right kind of tree and the Ink beetles, and then use it as a prison? That would be like building a jail and supplying all the cells with keys.

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salgene
06-26-2004, 10:17 PM
Thats the problem with qauntum physics and quantum reality. its very confusing.

If you want to get more confused or more of a headache go to this link.

quantum headache (http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/pres/107480_.pdf)

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Phen1
06-26-2004, 11:08 PM
Wait. If the world was created, couldn't Atrus just re-write Riven completely, with no instabilities, and give them back their original home? Or if you can create links to infinite ages that already exist, couldn't he just write a link to another Riven of the infinite Rivens, one of which has no instabilities? You see, I don't really want answers, because there are none (I don't think), but the point is that just like in any world sprung from human imagination, there will probably be problems and paradoxes. Rand and Robyn have access to something known as "suspension of disbelief", meaning that we, the fans, can just ignore the situation, and it will practically disappear! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~~PHEN~~

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Alahmnat
06-26-2004, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phen1:
Wait. If the world was created, couldn't Atrus just re-write Riven completely, with no instabilities, and give them back their original home? Or if you can create links to infinite ages that already exist, couldn't he just write a link to another Riven of the infinite Rivens, one of which has no instabilities?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah... he could Write a new Riven... but given his lack of free time and available free Books, I don't see how that was going to happen...

If you're asking why he didn't just alter the existing Book to link to a new Riven, well, that's simple. If you alter the link, anything on the Age left behind is permanantly lost. In this case, that would have been Catherine. It's not like Back to the Future where people from an alternate timeline get pulled into the correct one for no apparent reason whatsoever when things get fixed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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Phen1
06-27-2004, 08:07 AM
Yeah, Al, but what I mean to say is, why did he write Releeshahn to relocate the D'ni, why didn't he re-write Riven to relocate them after you had already saved Catherine?

~~PHEN~~

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EDIT: By the way, Al, don't you go dissing Back To The Future. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I love that series! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

Alahmnat
06-27-2004, 09:07 AM
He didn't re-write Riven because Catherine had already written them a new home, remember? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Devokan80
06-27-2004, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

EDIT - Whoops, I can't just leave it at that, I must add that there are Ages written for specific purposes in which the rules that would normally apply for most Ages do, in fact, not apply. One example is the Age of Gahreesen, in Uru. This age was created/described in such a way that links in and out were impossible to create other than those allowed by the Age's writer(s). So, it may be that prison ages such as the ones in which Sirrus and Achenar were trapped contain similar restrictions for just that reason. Just something to ponder.

http://www.l7square.com/journals/
http://www.l7square.com/journals/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think, if I remember right, that linking books could be made in Gahreesen, but just not in any of the buildings, because they rotate. To write a linking book you have to be on something that's not rotating or moving. (So no writing a linking book on a moving train) That's why the buildings were made to rotate, to keep them secure from people linking into other areas besides the "front door." So I don't think it was because of any special way that the age was written.
My theory on the whole "what happend to S&A's books?," (along with a lot of other people) and I think it has pretty much been confirmed by Pat, is that the books that we saw in Myst were linking books, and Atrus had the descriptive books somewhere else. So when the brothers linked to the worlds through the linking book they figured that there would be a return linking book waiting on the other side if they needed it, but they were wrong, and so they were "trapped" in that age. Another thing that points in that direction is the fact that we had to replace the torn out pages in the linking book. If you tore pages from a descriptive book it would have "destroyed" the age. I think that is probably the simplest theory.

Phen1
06-27-2004, 08:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
He didn't re-write Riven because Catherine had already written them a new home, remember? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Sorry if this sounds stupid, but then what was Releeshahn for? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~~PHEN~~

Pre-rendering ROCKS!!!

Nebodin
06-27-2004, 10:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by matt myat:
I think the theory goes that if you alter an age you will acutally describe (and therefore connect to) a different world (however subtle the change). This tends to be supported by occasions where Atrus and/or Gehn (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) have found problems in the ages they have written but have refrained from making changes because they would then point to different worlds (in the infinite multiverse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) and they would have lost the relationship they had established with the natives, (or even the natives themselves) since they would actually be in a different world and so have no memory of being visited (because this "similar" world _wasn't_ visited)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm, this post got me thinking... I think the biggest problem in conceiving any of this is in trying to conceive the concept of infinity.

If there were an infinite number of universes, and if changing a descriptive book caused it to describe a different world in the multiverse, then this does not preclude the possibility that Atrus and/or Gehn (or at least versions of them) had already visited and formed identical relationships with the natives of this other world. So as far as the returning Atrus and/or Gehn would be concerned the two worlds would appear identical (even the natives' memories) apart from whatever changes were made to the book.

However, for this to be possible the descriptive book would have to include descriptions of every person in the age and every memory and experience they had ever had, and this seems unlikely.

But if the book could not bind it to this new world, how did it bind it to the original? How can a descriptive book ever describe a single identity in a multiverse? If there were infinite universes then there would have to be, for example, one identical to this, except that this little atom here * would actually be slightly to the left. But not even that cuts it, if this multiverse is truly infinite, then there would also be an infinite number of universes exactly the same as this one, and there would be infinite numbers of atrus's linking about the place, and an infinite number of those atrus's would end up linking to a spot where there was already another version of atrus, standing in the exact spot that he linked to, and i don't even want to think about what happens then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But anyway, this means that even if the book described the exact position and momentum of every particle in the world it was linking to... there would still be an infinite number of matches. Not that it matters come to think of it, because they would all appear identical anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Oh dear... sorry... rant over.

Alahmnat
06-28-2004, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phen1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
He didn't re-write Riven because Catherine had already written them a new home, remember? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but then what was Releeshahn for? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Releeshahn was a new home for the D'ni survivors, because 1) the task of re-building D'ni itself was far too monumental for the number of survivors to undertake successfully, and 2) it was Atrus' opinion that attempting to re-build the D'ni civilization in the ruins of where it had already fallen once before would be to simply perpetuate the abuses and problems which plagued the D'ni. You'll note that at the end of Book of D'ni (and in Exile)< Atrus makes it clear to the D'ni [and in Exile, to himself and to the player) that in order to move forward, one must take from the past only that which is good, leaving past mistakes where they occured so as not to repeat them again [hopefully). Releeshahn was more of a symbolic blank slate for the D'ni than anything else. I mean, they could have stayed in the Cavern, but they chose not to.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nebodin:
How can a descriptive book ever describe a single identity in a multiverse? If there were infinite universes then there would have to be, for example, one identical to this, except that this little atom here * would actually be slightly to the left.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Book, based on the description you provide in its pages, will travel down the Tree of Possibility to a single branch which closest fits the description. It actually binds itself to this one specific instance once you've used the Linking Panel for the first time, and there's some degree of chaos and random chance involved, which is why, as I've noted, it's so improbable for you to link to the same instance of an Age (even if you copied the Descriptive Book word for word) that it's basically assumed to be impossible (though as with any random and chaotic event, the possibility, however remote, still exists...).

I talk a lot on this subject, don't I? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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earthangell
06-28-2004, 01:45 AM
hmmmm...... a thought just occured to me.... Alahmnat, are you by any chance related to Akela? the wise wolf from Cub Scouts?

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

Alahmnat
06-28-2004, 01:56 AM
No, but he's pretty nice as an aquaintance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. At least he didn't make me drink "tiger blood" at the induction ceremony... *was a Cubbie at one time, whose pack had a strange tradition of inducting tiger cubs by making them drink lukewarm tomato soup*

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JustBrett
06-28-2004, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nebodin:
If there were infinite universes then there would have to be, for example, one identical to this, except that this little atom here * would actually be slightly to the left. But not even that cuts it, if this multiverse is truly infinite, then there would also be an infinite number of universes exactly the same as this one, and there would be infinite numbers of atrus's linking about the place, &lt;snip&gt;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily! I can have, for example, an infinite number of pieces of fruit, but not one single apple -- an infinite number of oranges, peaches and blueberries would fit the definition. I could even have just one apple (or five, or fifty) and still have an infinite number of pieces of fruit. So, infinity does not, per se, preclude limitation, even though that sounds like a contradiction.

------------------
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Phen1
06-28-2004, 08:58 AM
JustBrett, are you sure you know what you're talking about? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif I'm not a scientist or anything, but I do know that infinity and rational numbers are in two different realms of math, and that you really can't compare them or you get strange things. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you could be. Things are not always what they seem... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

~~PHEN~~

Pre-rendering ROCKS!!!

monsieurdavid
06-28-2004, 08:58 AM
I've created a monster ;-)

Remember Alahmnat's mentioning "Schroedinger's Cat" a few posts back? If we all don't come back down to earth, I swear I'll print the whole paper right here on this thread, and force you all to read EVERY word of it. And there WILL be a quiz!

http://www.emr.hibu.no/lars/eng/cat/Default.htm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Alahmnat
06-28-2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monsieurdavid:
I've created a monster ;-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's generally the best way to describe it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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earthangell
06-28-2004, 12:42 PM
But it's so much fun!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

monsieurdavid
06-28-2004, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But it's so much fun!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely! Fun, and educational, too. I am PRETTY sure that I would never have encountered Schroedinger's Cat if not for this forum. Thanks!

frankenscarf
07-02-2004, 02:42 PM
Yay! Bring on the kitty!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Two authors:
Robert Anton Wilson - Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy
Dan Simmons - Hyperion, Fall of Hyperion, Endymion, Rise of Endymion

And I just have to point out that in the realm of infinity, S&A have already visited this forum, seen everyhting we've posted and are scheming to foil our every attempt to imprison them anytime in the near future. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

http://www.l7square.com/pub/footer.gif (http://www.l7square.com/journals/)
JOURNALS OF MYST & URU ARCHIVE - GET YOUR READ ON! (http://www.l7square.com/journals/)

Mowog
07-05-2004, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> S&A have already visited this forum, seen everyhting we've posted and are scheming to foil our every attempt to imprison them anytime in the near future. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So there's no point in buying Revelation then?

Nuts.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://www.ketcherside.net/mowog.jpg

Q: "What's even better than playing Uru?"
A: "Playing Uru in stereo 3D!"

luv-snail
07-20-2004, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monsieurdavid:
I've created a monster ;-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't like bringing up old threads but I just had to say:

Are you sure you created the monster, or did you just write a link to a pre-existing monster? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

- Dale -

monsieurdavid
07-23-2004, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't like bringing up old threads but I just had to say: Are you sure you created the monster, or did you just write a link to a pre-existing monster?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, go ahead and bring up old threads; they're the best ;-)

I'm pretty sure in this instance I created the monster outright, though there is every possibility that I only wrote a link! In the case of this thread, however, no one gathered the villagers together with their torches to chase "the monster" (me) up the mountainside to the castle ruins. On other threads, I haven't been so lucky! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif