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View Full Version : @ Leadspitter....re: 109 v Spit elevators.



Lixma
06-07-2005, 01:08 PM
I did a test earlier and took some piccies.

First I started from 5000k and dove both aircraft straight down to around 750kph....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/spit1.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/1091.gif

Then I levelled off and waited until the speed hit 700kph then I pulled as hard as possible back on the stick....

109 G6

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/1092.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/1093.gif

Result = 10 seconds (appx) to change direction by 180 degrees.

Spit 9

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/spit2.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/spit3.gif

Result = 6 seconds to change direction by 180 degrees. And the pilot was seriously blacking out too.

Neither test used any trim adjustments a) because i'd have to map some controls to do it and i'm lazy and b) because it's an unrealistic method of manouvering.

(Before anyone starts I know pilots used trim occasionaly when the stick forces were too high to pull up; but doing that and having the plane pre-trimmed in order to do bat-turns are poles apart)

Now, if the 109 can out-bat-turn a Spitfire when trimmed to the eyeballs then that's a failing of the way trim is implemented and a case of the game being exploited.

So as I see it the 109's elevator authority is leagues behind the Spitfire's if they are flown realistically; and quite right too. But if we're going to compare aircraft performance while we're exploiting a weakness in the game then we may as well give up.

If I could program a macro so when I hit the trigger my rate of fire doubled would I be justified in claiming the 109's rate of fire is twice the historical rate ?

P.S. I wrote all this out at CWoS then realised you don't go there, you b*stard, lol.

Lixma
06-07-2005, 01:08 PM
I did a test earlier and took some piccies.

First I started from 5000k and dove both aircraft straight down to around 750kph....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/spit1.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/1091.gif

Then I levelled off and waited until the speed hit 700kph then I pulled as hard as possible back on the stick....

109 G6

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/1092.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/1093.gif

Result = 10 seconds (appx) to change direction by 180 degrees.

Spit 9

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/spit2.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/spit3.gif

Result = 6 seconds to change direction by 180 degrees. And the pilot was seriously blacking out too.

Neither test used any trim adjustments a) because i'd have to map some controls to do it and i'm lazy and b) because it's an unrealistic method of manouvering.

(Before anyone starts I know pilots used trim occasionaly when the stick forces were too high to pull up; but doing that and having the plane pre-trimmed in order to do bat-turns are poles apart)

Now, if the 109 can out-bat-turn a Spitfire when trimmed to the eyeballs then that's a failing of the way trim is implemented and a case of the game being exploited.

So as I see it the 109's elevator authority is leagues behind the Spitfire's if they are flown realistically; and quite right too. But if we're going to compare aircraft performance while we're exploiting a weakness in the game then we may as well give up.

If I could program a macro so when I hit the trigger my rate of fire doubled would I be justified in claiming the 109's rate of fire is twice the historical rate ?

P.S. I wrote all this out at CWoS then realised you don't go there, you b*stard, lol.

LLv34_Stafroty
06-07-2005, 01:21 PM
well Lixma, cant say they didnt use Elevator trim in 109, at least Finn Pilots used it in turn fights etc.

Lixma
06-07-2005, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
well Lixma, cant say they didnt use Elevator trim in 109, at least Finn Pilots used it in turn fights etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps....but there's no way those tiny little trim tabs on the elevators can have such a dramatic effect on turn rate = especially at high speed.

JG53Frankyboy
06-07-2005, 01:29 PM
you know how the elevator timm in the 109s worked ??

the whole stabilizer moved ! not "only" a trimm tab

Lixma
06-07-2005, 01:36 PM
So what are the tabs for then ?

JG53Frankyboy
06-07-2005, 01:40 PM
to trimm a plane "basically" - they were only adjustable on the ground

Lixma
06-07-2005, 01:55 PM
Ahhhhhh....rgr.

I thought it was only the rudder and ailerons that were ground fixed.

Hristo_
06-07-2005, 03:14 PM
Well, don't take Leadspitter too seriously. If you read his posts, you'll notice that he throws so many catchy titles, half truths and exaggerations it isn't even funny.

Examples include:

".50 cal loses all its power at 30 yards in this game"

"real life .50 cal would punch through 1 1/2" steel plate at 100 yards and do a hole the size of a tennis ball"

"the spitfire, p-47, p-51, p-38 can easily be shot down by 4-6 mg151 hits at .30 range "

"the g6 does have better highspeed elevator authority then the spit but noway low speed under 530kmph. GO on HL lets do a test from 10,000m diving down i want to see you stay on my tail 700-850kmph ok and we post the track in here"

"Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a."

"even if you dont yank the stick using very slow movement at 1000m doing 560kmph the wings pop off [p51]"

"Making to 20mm stronger and leaving the problematic dms alone is really a bad solution to the fix, its just going to lead to the spit p47 p38 p-51 exploding wings ripping off from 1-2 20mm hits but the problematic dms will most likely still take 10-15 hits+.
"
(I guess he never heard of M-Geschoss, it is all just Oleg's tweaking of gun strength http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

"but the mg151 is completely recoiless and the 108 cannon does not have much recoil at all either and extremely easy to aim distances of .60 .70 and get kills."

"all american ac usually take 25 or 50 for the p47, russian and british 50 and german usually 75-100 which is where all the fm complaining comes from so making allied ac perform like they contain 100 fuel using 25 is not the solution for the whines."

OldMan____
06-07-2005, 07:12 PM
Also pay attention on speed on both pictures. And some people still say Spit does not hold E better than bf109. LOL.

TX-EcoDragon
06-08-2005, 12:52 AM
Some people think the world is flat. . .

ImpStarDuece
06-08-2005, 01:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
Also pay attention on speed on both pictures. And some people still say Spit does not hold E better than bf109. LOL. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pay attention to the relative climb heights as well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Vipez-
06-08-2005, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
Well, don't take Leadspitter too seriously. If you read his posts, you'll notice that he throws so many catchy titles, half truths and exaggerations it isn't even funny.

Examples include:

".50 cal loses all its power at 30 yards in this game"

"real life .50 cal would punch through 1 1/2" steel plate at 100 yards and do a hole the size of a tennis ball"

"the spitfire, p-47, p-51, p-38 can easily be shot down by 4-6 mg151 hits at .30 range "

"the g6 does have better highspeed elevator authority then the spit but noway low speed under 530kmph. GO on HL lets do a test from 10,000m diving down i want to see you stay on my tail 700-850kmph ok and we post the track in here"

"Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a."

"even if you dont yank the stick using very slow movement at 1000m doing 560kmph the wings pop off [p51]"

"Making to 20mm stronger and leaving the problematic dms alone is really a bad solution to the fix, its just going to lead to the spit p47 p38 p-51 exploding wings ripping off from 1-2 20mm hits but the problematic dms will most likely still take 10-15 hits+.
"
(I guess he never heard of M-Geschoss, it is all just Oleg's tweaking of gun strength http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

"but the mg151 is completely recoiless and the 108 cannon does not have much recoil at all either and extremely easy to aim distances of .60 .70 and get kills."

"all american ac usually take 25 or 50 for the p47, russian and british 50 and german usually 75-100 which is where all the fm complaining comes from so making allied ac perform like they contain 100 fuel using 25 is not the solution for the whines." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you forget LS's Bf109 G-6/G-6-late doing 560-570 kmh on sealevel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
06-08-2005, 06:08 AM
And the "109's 50 for 1 kill ratio on Warclouds". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

thompet03
06-08-2005, 06:19 AM
"Pay attention to the relative climb heights as well "...

yeah.. you can realy see that the spit must have done a much sharper turn.. 109 needs an additional 1000 meters for the same 180 degrees turn... not nice..

Raptor852
06-08-2005, 08:10 AM
E_total= E_kinetic + E_positive (=1/2.m.v^2+ m.g.h)

The spitfire has less positive energy than the 109 and the 109 has less kinetic energy. Can't really tell who has the most total energy here. You also can't say the 109 has a better climbrate can you?

Anyway, we know some LW's are exploiting the trim. Especially when they have it on a slider.

LLv34_Stafroty
06-08-2005, 02:19 PM
about trim: it was used by WW2 pilots which also was in kind of slider aye? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now in 4,0, 109 is quite useless when trying to use Zoom N Boom tactics, u just cant turn ur plane to shoot or even fly fast the enemy.

Its flying rocket now over 450kmh IAS speed.

Lixma
06-08-2005, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
about trim: it was used by WW2 pilots which also was in kind of slider aye? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now in 4,0, 109 is quite useless when trying to use Zoom N Boom tactics, u just cant turn ur plane to shoot or even fly fast the enemy.

Its flying rocket now over 450kmh IAS speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bad isn't it ?!!

Over 450kph the plane takes 1 hour to roll 360 degrees....eeeek.

Fennec_P
06-08-2005, 05:12 PM
I did a similar test, finding how much G each could do with full stick deflection.

Max G with full stick deflection in level turn with neutral trim, 109G6 vs SpitIXc. At 3000m, 700-400 IAS.

SpitIXc: 7G from 700-400km/h
109G6 : 4.5G at 700km/h. 4.7G at 400km/h

I think Leadspitter is the new RBJ.

LeadSpitter_
06-08-2005, 05:54 PM
we need to take a track lixma together like i said at the same speeds not just screenshots of different speeds you know. of course the spit elevator is slightly better under 530kmh IAS.

in the other thredd i said 700-900kmp ias.

Fennec_P
06-08-2005, 06:01 PM
in the other thredd i said 700-900kmp ias.

Neither plane has very good control response at 900km/h IAS. The lack of wings is a problem.

Lixma
06-08-2005, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
we need to take a track lixma together like i said at the same speeds not just screenshots of different speeds you know.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wha....? Either you're calling me out as dishonest or i've mistook your tone. If you want the tracks i'll mail them to you or whoever's bored enough to watch them. You can set this up yourself in the QMB...takes 5 minutes tops.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">of course the spit elevator is slightly better under 530kmh IAS </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you pull this figure from ? I started the loop at 700kph IAS (see pics) for both aircraft - no trim. A 180 reverse took 10seconds (according to the onscreen timer) for the 109 G6 and the Spit took 6 seconds.

Are you saying that if I try the same test at 800 i'll see the 109 out-turn the Spitfire ? And as Fennec mentioned 900kph is out of the question.

Fennec_P
06-08-2005, 07:54 PM
I don't know why, but I tried it at 800km/h IAS. If for nothing else than to get Lead to stop blabbing (even though it hasn't worked yet).

109G6 vs SpitVb.

First point: The Spit wings break off at 780km/h IAS. So I did the test at 750km/h instead. Altitude 5000m. Pitch up with full stick deflection, neutral trim. Record instantaneous G.

SpitVb: 9.3G
109G6: 8.1G

Conclusion: At any speed up until disintigration, the Spit has better control response than the 109.

Note: The reason why the peak G for both planes is so high and close in this case, is because both planes naturally get tail heavy at high speeds and neutral trim.

Want a track? Do it yourself.

lixmamkII
06-17-2005, 10:21 AM
lixma (taff???) - this is lixmamkii (big lad)get in touch - you taken some finding

lbhskier37
06-17-2005, 10:41 AM
Hayatace has been quiet lately, his territory is getting taken by leadspitter me thinks.

Jaws2002
06-17-2005, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Want a track? Do it yourself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HellToupee
06-18-2005, 07:57 PM
why are u using a spit v vs a g6, a spit 9 is a g6 comtemporary.

LeadSpitter_
06-18-2005, 08:25 PM
hey lix i dont know why this has been bumped up and moved to gd.

Im not calling you dishonest or anything i just wanted to perform the tests with you flying right next to you same speeds etc and on comms so we can get some good tracks of testing for 3.04 which is now over.

If you want to go back to 3.04 let me know i have one version as 3.04 still on my hd so we can test side by side same speeds etc if your up for it.

Hydra444
06-18-2005, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
Well, don't take Leadspitter too seriously. If you read his posts, you'll notice that he throws so many catchy titles, half truths and exaggerations it isn't even funny.

Examples include:

".50 cal loses all its power at 30 yards in this game"

"real life .50 cal would punch through 1 1/2" steel plate at 100 yards and do a hole the size of a tennis ball"

"the spitfire, p-47, p-51, p-38 can easily be shot down by 4-6 mg151 hits at .30 range "

"the g6 does have better highspeed elevator authority then the spit but noway low speed under 530kmph. GO on HL lets do a test from 10,000m diving down i want to see you stay on my tail 700-850kmph ok and we post the track in here"

"Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a."

"even if you dont yank the stick using very slow movement at 1000m doing 560kmph the wings pop off [p51]"

"Making to 20mm stronger and leaving the problematic dms alone is really a bad solution to the fix, its just going to lead to the spit p47 p38 p-51 exploding wings ripping off from 1-2 20mm hits but the problematic dms will most likely still take 10-15 hits+.
"
(I guess he never heard of M-Geschoss, it is all just Oleg's tweaking of gun strength http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

"but the mg151 is completely recoiless and the 108 cannon does not have much recoil at all either and extremely easy to aim distances of .60 .70 and get kills."

"all american ac usually take 25 or 50 for the p47, russian and british 50 and german usually 75-100 which is where all the fm complaining comes from so making allied ac perform like they contain 100 fuel using 25 is not the solution for the whines." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Now thats an informative post kids http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Good one Hristo