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ultraHun
04-03-2007, 03:35 AM
RAF pilots asked to consider suicide flight (http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2048967,00.html)

ultraHun
04-03-2007, 03:35 AM
RAF pilots asked to consider suicide flight (http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2048967,00.html)

Chris0382
04-03-2007, 06:46 AM
No

Knowing my luck I would run into a suicide bomber driving a car on the way back from his mission.

OD_79
04-03-2007, 06:49 AM
Blown out of all proportion, a hypothetical question which would not be carried out. If you have a suicide mission you give it to the Paras!

The cost of crashing an RAF aircraft into a car with a commander in is stupid, the commander would be replaced adn so would the car!

OD.

mrsiCkstar
04-03-2007, 07:03 AM
what about sending in UAVs for those sorts of missions? the last time I saw a show on those they said work was being done to develop UAVs that could serve as weapons platforms as well.

GIAP.Shura
04-03-2007, 07:07 AM
It seems like the RAF also consider "Divine Wind" duty to be a cushy number. I knew I had a fine military mind.

A slow news day if you ask me.

Waldo.Pepper
04-03-2007, 08:39 AM
Thanks for the link. Good article.
I wonder why we didn't hear even a hint of what answers they got.

horseback
04-03-2007, 09:42 AM
As a Catholic friend once pointed out, "the good thing about being a martyr is that you only have to do it once, and you're in (heaven, I assume)."

cheers

horseback

JG52Karaya-X
04-03-2007, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mrsiCkstar:
what about sending in UAVs for those sorts of missions? the last time I saw a show on those they said work was being done to develop UAVs that could serve as weapons platforms as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC the Predator can carry 1 or 2 pairs of mark L radar guided LOAL Hellfires

LStarosta
04-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Orders are orders. If as a serviceman, you're not ready to give your own life in the defense of what you swore to protect, maybe you should join the civil air patrol.

RCAF_FB_Orville
04-03-2007, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OD_79:
Blown out of all proportion, a hypothetical question which would not be carried out. If you have a suicide mission you give it to the Paras!

The cost of crashing an RAF aircraft into a car with a commander in is stupid, the commander would be replaced adn so would the car!

OD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>~S~ I am sure that you did not mean to be insensitive, but i have a dear friend currently serving with 3para in Afghanistan and did not see the humour in your "suicide mission" comment. For your information, nobody in their right mind wants to die; this is not a computer game it is real life. You may want to stop playing IL-2 for five minutes and reflect on this. He is fine at the moment in case you are interested. I hope you will maybe think a little more carefully before saying things like this, Thankyou.

Ruy Horta
04-03-2007, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Orders are orders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like Befehl ist Befehl?!

Don't be such so eager to die for your country!

Use your brains, that's what differentiates you from the blind fanatic.

Not even the Nazis considered suicide tactics as a viable method.

You can always ask volunteers for such a mission, but order?! It simply runs counter our western mind set.

The question itself is a good excerise.

The example however is not the best one. If a terrorist leader is traveling along a road, it would not be a life or death decision. You can take him out another time.

If an a/c armed with a crude nuclear device is heading towards a big city, all other options expended, you'll have plenty of fighter jocks who'd attempt a ram, with the obvious risk of dying in the process.

It is all about using the brain...

WWSpinDry
04-03-2007, 11:09 AM
Blue. No yel-- Auuuuuuuugh!

Friendly_flyer
04-03-2007, 11:10 AM
In the scenario the Commander put forth: No.
In the scenario Horta put forth: Yes.

LStarosta
04-03-2007, 12:18 PM
I agree, Horta. I meant it in the context of a last resort. Of course I'm going to use my brains -- I'm not spending my beer money on college for nothing!

OD_79
04-03-2007, 12:38 PM
I have a couple of friends in the Paras, and one undergoing selection. It's a bit of an in joke.
Paras are hard men, selected partly for that reason, as because well as because they have a high aptitude and are thoroughly professional, which is why they are sent into situations most troops would consider suicide missions and yet they still come out the other side and shrug it off. Maybe it's just Squaddie humour you're not used to.

OD.

NAFP_supah
04-03-2007, 12:44 PM
"Oh well there are enough stockbrokers to repopulate the city "

ultraHun
04-03-2007, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Orders are orders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like Befehl ist Befehl?!

Don't be such so eager to die for your country!

Use your brains, that's what differentiates you from the blind fanatic.

Not even the Nazis considered suicide tactics as a viable method.

You can always ask volunteers for such a mission, but order?! It simply runs counter our western mind set.

The question itself is a good excerise.

The example however is not the best one. If a terrorist leader is traveling along a road, it would not be a life or death decision. You can take him out another time.

If an a/c armed with a crude nuclear device is heading towards a big city, all other options expended, you'll have plenty of fighter jocks who'd attempt a ram, with the obvious risk of dying in the process.

It is all about using the brain... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

That was Spartan.

Warrington_Wolf
04-03-2007, 02:10 PM
I would probably reply with a nice polite "sod that". I can't believe how this story had gotten out of hand in the media. The Air Vice-Marshal was only mentioning a hypothetical situation, he wasn't ordering anyone to do it. If anything he was bringing up a "what if" scenario much like the discussions that we have here, when we talk about such things as chute shooting.

As far as I know during the last days of the war in the E.T.O, the Nazis did consider suicide tactics but nowhere near the scale of the Japanese tactics.
Here is a link about "selbstopfer"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstopfer
I've also heard that there was one incident during the last days of the war a selbstopfer mission did take place, the target was a bridge that would have been used by the Red Army. Does anyone know any more about this mission?

LEXX_Luthor
04-03-2007, 02:16 PM
There was a time...

Richard Bach, a crusty F-84 pilot, in his book Stranger to the Ground describes how pilots were supposed to (?) stay in the airplane if they lost control over a populated area like a city.

Stranger to the Ground ~&gt; http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-Ground-Richard-Bach/dp/0440206588

ploughman
04-03-2007, 02:17 PM
We've all seen Independence Day, we all know that ramming some alien's primary weapon might just be on the cards, one day. It's what we signed up for sir.

Jeez, sounds a bit gh3y when you think about it.

Edit***Having viewed the above's noble post I'm reminded of an old film called (maybe) "The Great Santini?" in which, amongst other things, an F-4 pilot dies guiding his ride out to sea rather than bail over a populated area.

A colleague at one of my old places of employments sister's husband, an RAF Tornado pilot, was met after ejecting from a Tornado with an engine fire by a farmer with a cup of tea. "That's pretty spritely of you," says Biggles. "Me and my oppo've only just punched out."
"Ah yes," says the farmer. "I saw you headed up the valley on fire and knew you'd be back so I popped the kettle on and sorted you both out a cup of tea...just like the last chaps."
The pilot'd gone up the valley on fire, turned around and pointed his jet back out to sea before bailing, just like another set of aviators the year before.

Warrington_Wolf
04-03-2007, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
We've all seen Independence Day, we all know that ramming some alien's primary weapon might just be on the cards, one day. It's what we signed up for sir.

Jeez, sounds a bit gh3y when you think about it.

Edit***Having viewed the above's noble post I'm reminded of an old film called (maybe) "The Great Santini?" in which, amongst other things, an F-4 pilot dies guiding his ride out to sea rather than bail over a populated area.

A colleague at one of my old places of employments sister's husband, an RAF Tornado pilot, was met after ejecting from a Tornado with an engine fire by a farmer with a cup of tea. "That's pretty spritely of you," says Biggles. "Me and my oppo've only just punched out."
"Ah yes," says the farmer. "I saw you headed up the valley on fire and knew you'd be back so I popped the kettle on and sorted you both out a cup of tea...just like the last chaps."
The pilot'd gone up the valley on fire, turned around and pointed his jet back out to sea before bailing, just like another set of aviators the year before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I too thought about the "independence day" scenario.
At risk of sounding like the Air Vice-Marshal, if you were in an "independence day" scenario, would you sacrifice yourself?

Bremspropeller
04-03-2007, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not even the Nazis considered suicide tactics as a viable method.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did, Ruy!

Kommando Elbe and several suicide attacks on soviet-built ponton-bridges (across the Oder-river) took place.

carts
04-03-2007, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not even the Nazis considered suicide tactics as a viable method.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did, Ruy!

Kommando Elbe and several suicide attacks on soviet-built ponton-bridges (across the Oder-river) took place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's a difference though,the pilots of the Kommando Elbe were all volunters,and they did have a chance of surviving the initial impact,and bailing,as a few did,The aim was to destroy enemy bombers,not a cultural imperative.
Many,many infantry men,in all armies,gave their live's so their comrades might live,in that way,its a selfless act,not a personification of a Warrior elite.

RCAF_FB_Orville
04-03-2007, 10:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OD_79:
I have a couple of friends in the Paras, and one undergoing selection. It's a bit of an in joke.
Paras are hard men, selected partly for that reason, as because well as because they have a high aptitude and are thoroughly professional, which is why they are sent into situations most troops would consider suicide missions and yet they still come out the other side and shrug it off. Maybe it's just Squaddie humour you're not used to.

OD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmm....or maybe just another armchair warrior who thinks he can be flippant about war, and that it is a laughing matter. Believe it or not, i am well aware of Para and special forces "gallows humour". If you had paid attention to my previous post you would have noted that he is a close friend of mine. From this you can safely infer that we have had DIALOGUE. I know for a fact that the situation in Afghanistan is dire and that they are under equipped and morale is poor, they (himself included) have seen some of the fiercest fighting in the middle east to date, most of which goes unreported. I very much doubt that my friend will return as the person he was. Know any other good jokes Rambo? Hilarious. From my end, end of discussion.

Ruy Horta
04-04-2007, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
I agree, Horta. I meant it in the context of a last resort. Of course I'm going to use my brains -- I'm not spending my beer money on college for nothing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to hear that!!

As for the topic of Nazi suicide tactics, the reply has already been given by H.G. Carts.

Note that I wrote "considered suicide tactics as a viable method", which leaves room for thought and experiment.

The concept of "Himmelfahrtskommando" is pretty well known, a mission with little or no chance of survival, yet this is not a suicide attack - a mission of certain death by (ordered) self sacrifice.

If we stick with the Luftwaffe we can mention in degrees of desperation, Wilde Sau, Sturmjäger, Rammjäger and Schulungslehrgang Elbe. IMHO the Natter wasn't much better in terms of survivability and could fit in this list. Last but not least Sonderkdo Bienenstock, which was probably the most suicidal of the lot.

But like their counterpart in the Kriegsmarine (midget subs) there remained the principle that the attacker could or at worst might survive.

Ruy Horta
04-04-2007, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_FB_Orville:
I know for a fact that the situation in Afghanistan is dire and that they are under equipped and morale is poor, they (himself included) have seen some of the fiercest fighting in the middle east to date, most of which goes unreported. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Orville,

I often wonder if we haven't lost control. Again our western mindset doesn't make allowance for what is essentially a medieval war, a clash of cultures - a Jihad if you wish to call it like that.

What is also interesting is that this part of the world has been a point of conflict between Russia and Britain (and now the US led coalition) from at least the 19th century onward. Before the Soviets were fighting the Muhajedin, there was Kipling describing how the Indian Army fought constant small wars in the region, against tribes that seemed to love war in the first place.

If I read or hear about the current war in Afghanistan I wonder how little it actually differs from the Soviet occupation. Yes, the Nato troops are probably more sensitive to civilian casualties (and military losses). But much of the country is "not in control", government restricted to big(ger) towns and military strong points.

The bright side, there are is no US military aid to help the Muhajedin with anti-tank and aicraft weapons, but northern Pakistan is still the same sieve as it was back in the 80-ies. I often wonder if the war on terror isn't fought on the WRONG SIDE of the border.

Sorry for the OT rambling.

Hope your mate gets out in one piece and with some peace of mind!

RCAF_FB_Orville
04-04-2007, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_FB_Orville:
I know for a fact that the situation in Afghanistan is dire and that they are under equipped and morale is poor, they (himself included) have seen some of the fiercest fighting in the middle east to date, most of which goes unreported. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Orville,

I often wonder if we haven't lost control. Again our western mindset doesn't make allowance for what is essentially a medieval war, a clash of cultures - a Jihad if you wish to call it like that.

What is also interesting is that this part of the world has been a point of conflict between Russia and Britain (and now the US led coalition) from at least the 19th century onward. Before the Soviets were fighting the Muhajedin, there was Kipling describing how the Indian Army fought constant small wars in the region, against tribes that seemed to love war in the first place.

If I read or hear about the current war in Afghanistan I wonder how little it actually differs from the Soviet occupation. Yes, the Nato troops are probably more sensitive to civilian casualties (and military losses). But much of the country is "not in control", government restricted to big(ger) towns and military strong points.

The bright side, there are is no US military aid to help the Muhajedin with anti-tank and aicraft weapons, but northern Pakistan is still the same sieve as it was back in the 80-ies. I often wonder if the war on terror isn't fought on the WRONG SIDE of the border.

Sorry for the OT rambling.

Hope your mate gets out in one piece and with some peace of mind! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ruy Horta,

Thank you first and foremost for the concern you have shown for my friend. Why is it that these territories are so vehemently disputed? I will leave that up to academia and the intelligentsia to decide....its really rather obvious in a world faced with dwindling natural resources. This is Geo-Politics in its truest form, and the forging of Empire or "client states", (much the same as each other) is at the root of a certain Republican's Hubris, whose name i cannot mention. I've probably said too much....erm...are there any decent tea/coffee machines in here? LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WarWolfe_1
04-04-2007, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NAFP_supah:
"Oh well there are enough stockbrokers to repopulate the city " </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No that would be laywers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


It costs alot of money to select and train an army....unless it was a WW2 japan, and they had a phrase that basicly ment that a soilder was only worth the stamp it took to send him a postcard saying he was conscripted.

Friendly_flyer
04-05-2007, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_FB_Orville:
Why is it that these territories are so vehemently disputed? I will leave that up to academia and the intelligentsia to decide....its really rather obvious in a world faced with dwindling natural resources. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you have put your finger spot on Orville. Too many people, too little land. I have seen a few pictures, it's all dessert. To me it looks like a bad case of planting of crops the land can't sustain and over-grazing by goats. In the same vein, the Middle East used to be a nice and green place. Today, the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated places on Earth.