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luftluuver
02-25-2006, 04:24 AM
It is mid 1943 and a Mossie FB VI and a Bf110G get into a fight.

What tactics would each use and what would be the outcome?

luftluuver
02-25-2006, 04:24 AM
It is mid 1943 and a Mossie FB VI and a Bf110G get into a fight.

What tactics would each use and what would be the outcome?

CD_kp84yb
02-25-2006, 04:28 AM
lol in the me 110 its easy, i would hit the silk.

mossie is faster and if you dont get in front of the 110 nothing can hurts you, mind the reargunner,

havent flown the 110 since 304 . i think i will try her out again

AH_Gonzo
02-25-2006, 06:25 AM
From a 110 driver's point of view, I'd only go near a Mossie if I had the altittude advantage. After an initial pass, bleed any extra speed with a roll off the top and then fall into lag persuit using the lack of a Mossie tail gunner to my advantage.

Well that would be the plan anyway. Most likley, I'd roll in, spin ou and kill the Mossie driver with laughter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
02-25-2006, 07:07 AM
110G is more powerful and will turn and accelerate initally quite a bit better, so at low speed or in any form of turning engagement it's actually the better bird.

Mosquito seems better at high speed, but watch out. Go too fast and those big elevators get very heavy, which means you have to plan your attacks on advance. Fast climbs and sharp attacks on the rear quarters are the best bet.

Both birds have too much firepower up front for the fight to last very long.

luftluuver
02-25-2006, 07:16 AM
Some data I have on the 110<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">G</span> lists 2x30mm with 135rpg and 2x20mm with 300-350rpg. What was the Mossie's 20mm load?

The Mossie has an ~30mph speed advantage.

What should the Mossie due for a high rear quarter attack by the 110G?

ISD, you should add 'flight sims' to your sig. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Arm_slinger
02-25-2006, 08:46 AM
I think the 110 may have the advantage for turning, as the mossie feels very heavy. For energy style fighting, i'd bet on the mossie

VW-IceFire
02-25-2006, 09:05 AM
I feel that the Mosquito is faster and more manueverable but with slightly less firepower and no rear gunner. The Bf110 pilot has to use more energy tactics than the Mosquito pilot. Both are fairly similar and very interesting to have a fight between.

Both will undoubtedly satisfyingly fall to pieces if one gets infront of the other!

LameDuck.
02-25-2006, 09:11 AM
I haven't tried this match-up yet, but my instinct is:
Mossie; Avoid engagement, extend.
110; Drag the Mossie down into a slow knife fight.

Now I'm eager to set it up and try it, and especially compare climb rates.

Willey
02-25-2006, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
What was the Mossie's 20mm load? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

normal / extra ammo
4x .303 - 500 / 780 rpg
4x 20mm - 150 / 175 rpg

CrazyBadger
02-25-2006, 09:48 AM
Hi Willey,
Is that the loadout we have or the load out you found referenced? Just asking because I checked two sources and they both had 300 rounds/gun for the 20's and between 1000-2000 rounds/gun for the 303's. Of course that's for the FB.VI that what we have. I think some of the night fighters which had the 303's removed had even more cannon ammo.
Cheers

johann63
02-25-2006, 10:06 AM
I have been doing many QMB matchups with the Mossie and the BF110, myself switching sides to see the results. I often fight agaist a pilot and wingman.

I have found the results to be mixed. Granted I am not a great pilot so throw that into the mix. The rear gunner of the 110 can be serious trouble and it doesnt take much for this guy to cause problems. My best results with Mossie is zoom boom type battle or quick sweeping shots and getting out of fire line. Since the 110s can move all over the place its often hard to get a solid shot.

For the Bf110 my best results are trying to engage in turning fight and a quick heavy burst from the guns does the Mossie in.

I still argue the Mossie doesnt fly as fast in this game as it truly did, just my thoughts.

heywooood
02-25-2006, 11:18 AM
high side diagonal attacks, slicing under the 110 will always work well - stay away from his nose and tail.

Jumoschwanz
02-25-2006, 12:54 PM
I will go with what Chuck Yeager says, that the man with the most experience will win no matter what he is flying.
Which means on very good authority, these threads about one plane type vs. another are pointless.

For instance I have shot down dozens of fighter aircraft, Laggs, p-39s, P-40s, spits and yaks, while flying the Stuka, and with the main forward firing guns in the wings, not with the tailgun, and with no altitude advantage to boot.

If you get shot down no matter what you are flying, it is not becuase of what you are flying but because you did something s t u p i d.

The mentality that started these threads is the same mentality that is at the root of all whining about this or that planes flight model or armament.


Jumoschwanz

luftluuver
02-25-2006, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I will go with what Chuck Yeager says, that the man with the most experience will win no matter what he is flying.
Which means on very good authority, these threads about one plane type vs. another are pointless.

For instance I have shot down dozens of fighter aircraft, Laggs, p-39s, P-40s, spits and yaks, while flying the Stuka, and with the main forward firing guns in the wings, not with the tailgun, and with no altitude advantage to boot.

If you get shot down no matter what you are flying, it is not becuase of what you are flying but because you did something s t u p i d.

The mentality that started these threads is the same mentality that is at the root of all whining about this or that planes flight model or armament. Jumoschwanz </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

I see a lack of brain power in not understanding the question &gt;&gt; <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">TACTICS</span> used by both and who would be the victor. In other words, what is best for defense and attack for each a/c type.

FritzGryphon
02-25-2006, 05:52 PM
Bf-110: Use tailgun, and pray you can light the Mossie on fire before it disintigrates you.

Mossie: Disintigrate the 110.

panther3485
02-25-2006, 09:02 PM
Hi, Jumoschwanz

Quote:
"I will go with what Chuck Yeager says, that the man with the most experience will win no matter what he is flying.
Which means on very good authority, these threads about one plane type vs. another are pointless.

For instance I have shot down dozens of fighter aircraft, Laggs, p-39s, P-40s, spits and yaks, while flying the Stuka, and with the main forward firing guns in the wings, not with the tailgun, and with no altitude advantage to boot.

If you get shot down no matter what you are flying, it is not becuase of what you are flying but because you did something s t u p i d."


I've got Chuck Yeager's book 'Yeager' and it's a very interesting read.

What happens when the pilots are both well experienced, there is no initial altitude advantage and neither one does anything 'stupid'?

Does the aircraft make any difference at all, in your opinion? If so, how much?


Best regards,
panther3485

SnailRunner
02-26-2006, 03:31 AM
I would say 110. Its made around the thought of being a fighter, the mossie was made to be a fast bomber. The 110 can do e-Fighting and T&B, the mossie aint happy with the low speed flying, and needs it speed, but to mutch speed and the dive will kill you.....

If i was in the 110 meeting a mossie, i would watch him flying home, if i was in a mossie and met the 110, i would floor it and head home...

The mossie aint a "heawy fighter"....it is...no matter how you look at it...a werry fast bomber in design....

Aaron_GT
02-26-2006, 04:14 AM
With a series 1 FB.VI versus a 110G in 1943 we have the first version of the FB.VI with underperforming engines against the zenith of 110 production. It will be a close fight. Later in the war a current production 110 would have a much harder time against a current production Mosquito, but by then perhaps the comparasion should be against a 410?

LStarosta
02-26-2006, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SnailRunner:
I would say 110. Its made around the thought of being a fighter, the mossie was made to be a fast bomber. The 110 can do e-Fighting and T&B, the mossie aint happy with the low speed flying, and needs it speed, but to mutch speed and the dive will kill you.....

If i was in the 110 meeting a mossie, i would watch him flying home, if i was in a mossie and met the 110, i would floor it and head home...

The mossie aint a "heawy fighter"....it is...no matter how you look at it...a werry fast bomber in design.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL you're fishing, right?

LameDuck.
02-26-2006, 11:39 AM
I'm discovering the 110 version is important; the G2 can outrun and outclimb the FB.VI*, which means for all practical purposes the only thing a Mossie can outrun is... a Feisler. And that means...the Mossie is in Really Deep Doodoo, especially if the 110 can delay the Mossie until help arrives. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif
I'm going to move it up to ~6,000m and try it again when I get the time.

*(Sea level, "average" skill level, 50% fuel & default loadouts for both)

Jumoschwanz
02-26-2006, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by panther3485:
Hi, Jumoschwanz

Quote:
"I will go with what Chuck Yeager says, that the man with the most experience will win no matter what he is flying.
Which means on very good authority, these threads about one plane type vs. another are pointless.

For instance I have shot down dozens of fighter aircraft, Laggs, p-39s, P-40s, spits and yaks, while flying the Stuka, and with the main forward firing guns in the wings, not with the tailgun, and with no altitude advantage to boot.

If you get shot down no matter what you are flying, it is not becuase of what you are flying but because you did something s t u p i d."


I've got Chuck Yeager's book 'Yeager' and it's a very interesting read.

What happens when the pilots are both well experienced, there is no initial altitude advantage and neither one does anything 'stupid'?

Does the aircraft make any difference at all, in your opinion? If so, how much?


Best regards,
panther3485 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think the aircraft is less than 10% of the equation, and the pilot is at least 90%.

A smart pilot can always use his superior knowledge of the aircraft involved and tactics to find a crack in the wall.

The crack might be in the other plane, or the other pilot, or in the terrain or altitude the fight is at. But there is one there.

The most efficient use of time spent on improving your success in dogfighting one or more opponents will be the time you spend improving yourself as a pilot. Learning the strengths and weaknesses of every plane you will fly and encounter, learning spectacular gunnery skills, like 90 degree deflection shots while inverted and such, and learning to fly your own game instead of playing follow the leader.

99.9% of the time someone gets shot down online it is because the other pilot was better, not the other plane.

The pilot is at the top of the equation, the plane is down below somewhere.
Firepower is more important than the type of plane even. Given the same pilot, a plane with one cannon, is only going to make a one pass kill with half the frequency of a plane with two cannons, and one quarter of the frequency of a plane with four cannons.

The speed of a plane is only and advantage if it is used, and turning ability of a plane is only useful if someone is d u mb enough to turn with you.

I will attack a faster and better turning plane no problem and beat them 90% of the time, because 90% of the time the pilot doesn't know what to do with what he has.

The La5fn pilot called me a cheat when I shot him down repeatedly with a 109g2 "a 109 cannot turn like that" he said, he did not know that I never turned, I was going straight and he flew in front of me AFTER I GUESSED FROM EXPERIENCE WHERE HE WAS GOING AND WAS THERE WAITING FOR HIM,
and the yak and Lagg3 pilots actually blamed their planes when they were shot down by a Stuka that was almost 200km/hr slower than them!
The "admin" of the 1 vs 1 server chose the 109 for us to duel with, I put gunpods on mine, had a 3 to 1 advantage in gunnery, and smoked him, all I needed was one shot, he needed three.
And on and on and on...

It is true, Old Age and Treachery, Beats Youth and Enthusiasm Every Time.
Practice spectacular shotmaking, dream up shots, envision them, try them, you will make them with practice and experience. If you can make shots from ten different angles then you have a ten to one advantage over the guy who only can shoot when he is on your six.

Track planes you cannot even see, planes that are hidden below your planes floor and nose, pull the trigger when you KNOW they are going to fly from underneath past your guns, you will make these shots with experience. If you try five shots from five directions and only hit with one, you will be more successful than he who waits for the only one shot he can make.

The high boost Spit with six guns was shot down by the 109 with a single 20mm, because the 109 landed three spectacular deflection shots at different angles while the spit was trying to get on it's six.

See?

Jumoschwanz

wayno7777
02-26-2006, 09:26 PM
Sounds like Marseille after he had his epiphony. If he were English, he might have said, "By jove, I think I've got it." Actually, that's what he did. Practise, practise, practise....

panther3485
02-27-2006, 02:42 AM
Hi, Jumoschwanz

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for explaining your position in more detail. I would agree that pilot quality (knowledge/training/experience/skill and cunning etc) is usually the most important factor.

Second (and, IMHO, sometimes a close second) comes initial height/positional/tactical advantage.

Then mostly third, the differences in the opposing aircraft.

I guess a certain slice of luck can enter into it as well, but IMHO you most definitely should not rely on it!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best regards,
panther3485

Ernst_Rohr
02-27-2006, 01:06 PM
I think a lot would depend on the tactical situation on 1st spotting.

Realistically, both pilots would be looking over and looking for id on the hostile aircraft, then making a snap fight/no fight call.

Who has the height advantage? Whats the angle of closure? Thats really key for both birds, and goest back to tactics.

Both birds are gunsleds, and a good shoot solution is going to hurt the other guy badly, if not fatally.

As mentioned, the speed advantage depends on the model of the plane, but assuming the Mossie has the speed, it helps, but not hugely so, unless he has height to maximize it.

The Mossie would be best off in a B&Z fight, he definately does not want to get into a turn fight with a 100. Despite the size, 110's turn rates were pretty tight, what hurts the 110 in a turn fight is poor roll performance. Then again, the Mossie isnt exactly rolling really well either.

Best bet for the Mossie would be a hight advantage from a 4,5,7,8 clock position, dive for a quick slashing attack, then parly the speed into a quick extend outside the 110's gun envelope. At that point, re-evaluate the situation and make a "shoot or scoot" decision.

Similar decision for the 110, but since there is no rear threat on the Mossie, hanging in the Mossies six is very viable, since the 110 can outturn the Mossie (depending on alt) and the Mossie is certainly not going to out roll the 110 and extend away.

I would say the fight would go to whichever pilot reads the situation correctly and makes the best use of the information.

Beaufort-RAF
03-08-2006, 03:58 PM
In 44' 2 Mosquito VI's on a fighter sweep to Norway found 3 Bf110s & a Ju88 patrolling along the coast together and shot them all down.

Scharnhorst1943
03-08-2006, 11:29 PM
I am with Jumoschwanz. I agree 100%. It all boils down to pilot skill.

However, because the two planes are so similar, there must be some rules of engagement established. Lets specify that both planes are at same altitude and same speed, with neither having an advantage. Now who is better?

Even with an outclassed plane it is still possible for either to win. Even though the Mossie has speed advantage, that can be a dissadvantage. If the 110 pilot is able to do a Tom Cruze "airbrake and he'll fly right by" move, the mossie will overshoot. But if the mossie pilot tries to turn with the 110, he'll pprobably end up in the drink.

I think this one goes right up on par with Wildcats vs Zeros as well as Spitfire vs 109.

PikeBishop
03-09-2006, 05:52 AM
Dear All,
As regards to which can out-turn the other, the wing loadings of the mosquito FBVI and the Bf110G4 were 39lbs per square foot and 36lbs per square foot which gives the 110 a small advantage in turning.
The power loadings are 5.98lbs per horse power and 5.48lbs per horse power which again favours the 110 so only the weapons carried favours the FBVI. Not sure about rate of climb or acceleration for the respective types though.
Best regards,
SLP

PikeBishop
03-09-2006, 05:59 AM
But it is likely that the 110 will have the edge in acceleration if the drag is similar.
SLP

stathem
03-09-2006, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PikeBishop:
But it is likely that the 110 will have the edge in acceleration if the drag is similar.
SLP </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think even the most cursory visual study of the 2 designs would probably indicate which of the two had the lower drag figure....

luftluuver
03-09-2006, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Dear All,
As regards to which can out-turn the other, the wing loadings of the mosquito FBVI and the Bf110G4 were 39lbs per square foot and 36lbs per square foot which gives the 110 a small advantage in turning.
The power loadings are 5.98lbs per horse power and 5.48lbs per horse power which again favours the 110 so only the weapons carried favours the FBVI. Not sure about rate of climb or acceleration for the respective types though.
Best regards,
SLP </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is that with or without bombs on the Mossie?

koivis
03-09-2006, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> so only the weapons carried favours the FBVI </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What? Are you saying that 4x20mm and 4x7,7mm are dramatically better than 2x20mm and 2x30mm?
Hmm...

PikeBishop
03-09-2006, 07:40 AM
OKAY.....OKAY I was not totally sure of the cannon carried but just recalled the old airfix model from my distant past.
Best regards,
SLP

PikeBishop
03-09-2006, 07:42 AM
Without bombs