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View Full Version : oleg, any chance for hvar's on p-47 and p-51's



VF-29_Sandman
06-24-2005, 07:49 AM
with possibly the exception to the d-10 and d-22 model of p-47, any chance to have a hvar load-out on the d-27 and from the '43 and up versions of the p-51? if not, how about maybe the possiblity of being able to jettison the bazooka tubes after going winchester to cut down on the drag?

VF-29_Sandman
06-24-2005, 07:49 AM
with possibly the exception to the d-10 and d-22 model of p-47, any chance to have a hvar load-out on the d-27 and from the '43 and up versions of the p-51? if not, how about maybe the possiblity of being able to jettison the bazooka tubes after going winchester to cut down on the drag?

VW-IceFire
06-24-2005, 07:56 AM
I'm sure this will be a 3 pager. They used to be.

Trouble with HVARs on P-47D-27 is that they were never equipped. D-30s and up had HVAR mountings.

Trouble with HVARs on P-51D's is that they were apparently never equipped in Europe. The first were equipped in the PTO and from what everyone can find, even then only very rarely. The vast majority of pictures of Mustangs with HVARs are Korean War F-51s.

What the Mustang could have is the Bazooka tube rockets. Particularly on the B/C version. That'd be nice.

Quite a few of the FM-2s had HVARs equipped. That'd be something we could fix up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VF-29_Sandman
06-24-2005, 08:53 AM
i ask about the p-51's hvar's because, in the movie 'pvt. ryan', a tiger tank explodes, and a couple of seconds later, 2 p-51's pass overhead. now; if the mustangs had dropped u would have seen them alot sooner, and climbing back up. these 51's didnt do this. they flew overhead on the level.

Zyzbot
06-24-2005, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
i ask about the p-51's hvar's because, in the movie 'pvt. ryan', a tiger tank explodes, and a couple of seconds later, 2 p-51's pass overhead. now; if the mustangs had dropped u would have seen them alot sooner, and climbing back up. these 51's didnt do this. they flew overhead on the level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It is just a movie.

fordfan25
06-24-2005, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zyzbot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
i ask about the p-51's hvar's because, in the movie 'pvt. ryan', a tiger tank explodes, and a couple of seconds later, 2 p-51's pass overhead. now; if the mustangs had dropped u would have seen them alot sooner, and climbing back up. these 51's didnt do this. they flew overhead on the level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It is just a movie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bingo. its a movie made to entertain, not a documentery ment to educate

Chuck_Older
06-24-2005, 09:46 AM
P-51 in SPR is way over-modelled

Cajun76
06-24-2005, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
P-51 in SPR is way over-modelled </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they should have been Thunderbolts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-24-2005, 10:40 AM
so, the plane in Cajuns SIG is still the dream to have - what will never happen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
P-47N over Kyushu , what wondefull missions could bem ade with them ............ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

nevertheless , HVARs for the FM-2 would be great. they could fly close suport missions at the Marianes and Okinawa campaigns. these small bombs the ahve now are not very lethal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
06-24-2005, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
P-51 in SPR is way over-modelled </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they should have been Thunderbolts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

naw, shoulda been tiffies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Willey
06-24-2005, 11:04 AM
We would need:

P-47D-30 or anything up to D-40
P-51 Bazookas
HVARs on FM-2
RS-82 on Hurricane Fieldmod
WGr.21 on 109G-6 and G-10 and G-14
PB 8.8 and PB II on 190F-8
Up to 8 82mm rockets on Il-2M
Bazooka and WGr.21 tubes droppable (at least I know of the 21s - it was possible to "blast" them off)
WGr.21 single shot

That's roughly what I want to see rockets-wise.

RiesenSchnauzer
06-24-2005, 12:18 PM
This issue has been presented to Oleg several times over the history of this sim. At this point I highly doubt you will see any rockets on a Pony or HVAR's on the P-47. If Oleg was going to do it he would have by now.

Ratsack
06-24-2005, 05:02 PM
You can't have rockets on the P47s and P51s until he's put a bomb on the Bf109F. Get in line, and no shoving. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Ratsack

Grey_Mouser67
06-24-2005, 05:05 PM
A D-30 would be great! K-14 gunsight, dive breaks I believe too! I don't know if the D-30's all had the modified fin or not...that could be a problem, but I do have pictures of a M model without the fin! How bout that instead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
06-24-2005, 05:57 PM
id rather have 190f with rockets tbh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-24-2005, 05:59 PM
actually it would need pages to list all possible changes in the armament sections of all the planes in game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LeadSpitter_
06-24-2005, 07:17 PM
They used them widely on mustangs in the pto 44-45 on the p38 p47 and p51d, not just korea like many people here think.

Even the 43-44 the british mustang3 a-36 p51 a b and c had bazooka tubes or british rockettrees of 60lb rockets both in italy north africa and the european front, we just do not hear much about anything except the escort missions.

I also wish since they have so called torque now if we can drop individual bombs which the real planes did having.

Right now dropping 2 1000lbs has the effect of 1 sc500 pretty much. I think all the bombs are much to weak in this game and rockets, Also cannon and mg should damage alot of these targets and ships in which they dont.

Same with wooden v1 ramps the little wooden sailboat, dry and liquid cargo ships, pt boats and subs.


It also seems v1s can not be destroyed anymore by .50 cal fire, top of engine or simply spraying the **** out of them with hundred of flashs on the v1 buzzbombs.

If anyone has tested them this 4.01 patch which .50s which loose all strenght much shorter range now, but hit very hard at .10 distance.

they are still a huge improvement over 4.00 but still have the wrong rof and seems tracers are only striking the ground causing the impacts so is .50s rof off by 9 showing stikes of only 1-10 tracer rounds?

Look at the seperation between them compaired to other mgs and cannon still.


The p47 also has wrong payload positions still and it did have the ability to carry a 3000lb bomb with 2 wing mounted p38 droptanks or 3 1000lb bombs.

4 british hvar on the d27 the later 10 hvar was on the m model still in spring of 45
3x1000
2x1000 1x500 or 5 centerline varied gallon droptank

We've asked many times sandman over the years and seems no one is listening.

VW-IceFire
06-24-2005, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
i ask about the p-51's hvar's because, in the movie 'pvt. ryan', a tiger tank explodes, and a couple of seconds later, 2 p-51's pass overhead. now; if the mustangs had dropped u would have seen them alot sooner, and climbing back up. these 51's didnt do this. they flew overhead on the level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember that scene and me thinking "thats very odd that they used a Mustang for that scene, they weren't terribly good as fighter-bombers". IMHO it should have been a P-47 or a Typhoon doing a rocket attack on a tank and I believe they hit it from the front too (which is all wrong). In any case, although Saving Private Ryan was fairly well done in the history department, this bit of aviation implemented into the last moment was probably the least well done part of the movie (it doesn't detract from it, its just not as good as it could be). Probably because they had a Mustang on hand for the scene (I don't think it was CGI) they used it.

But as far as HVAR fittings in Europe...no. And don't use the movie as your source http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We've been trying to find evidence of HVARs used on P-51s anywhere at anytime during WWII and so far we've got one picture of a P-51D at Iwo Jima with HVARs (and I think dated July or August 1945). Thats it...the rest are bazooka tube launchers.

LeadSpitter_
06-24-2005, 08:22 PM
as for icefire

P51B P51C and MustangIII
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/payload.jpg

And for the p51D late not K H or F51

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/tuskshark.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/tuskkitten.jpg

You can also see a p-51D hvar and tri boozuka tube training video here.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html

The p-47 D30 "most produced p47 i might add" was fitted with 4 hvar which were mounted on the bazooka tube mounting system.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/p47d30hvar.jpg

As for the p-47D27 on escort missions notice the bomb pylons are removed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/p47d27escort.jpg


The P-47 D40 was the first to be fitted with 5 inch rockets with launch rail in 1945 and used in the eto and the pacific theater.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-8.jpg

And I agree with you about private ryan the movie while being a great film you cannot judge it for realism even tho the mustang scene could have had rockets but would have been extremely rare, hvars on mustangs were very rare but infact were used in the eto and more widely used in the pto and med.

Just like this sim we can not judge it for historical accuracy but we try to get things as close as possible and it is considered whining.

Badsight.
06-24-2005, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Willey:
We would need:

P-47D-30 or anything up to D-40
P-51 Bazookas
HVARs on FM-2
RS-82 on Hurricane Fieldmod
WGr.21 on 109G-6 and G-10 and G-14
PB 8.8 and PB II on 190F-8
Up to 8 82mm rockets on Il-2M
Bazooka and WGr.21 tubes droppable (at least I know of the 21s - it was possible to "blast" them off)
WGr.21 single shot

That's roughly what I want to see rockets-wise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>awsome ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
06-24-2005, 08:45 PM
The 190s have the wgr 21 rocket tubes. But i would love to see the panzerblitz on the F8 but we would need a F9 as well to be more historical.

Also make sure they fire all at one time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/fw190weps.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/fw190panzerblitz.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/fw190jabos.jpg

p1ngu666
06-24-2005, 09:01 PM
lead im not sure if the p47 had enuff ground clearence for a 1000lb bomb on the centerline, but it took them on the wingracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

maybe oleg should add british rockets to the mark III http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LeadSpitter_
06-24-2005, 11:19 PM
Im trying to find the picture of the 3000lb on center bomb rack pingu http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, I dont know if its the same type the sbd5 used.

I always thought the p47d27 max was 2x1000lb wingrack and 1 500lb centerline and or fuel tank but it wasn't.

JG53Frankyboy
06-25-2005, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The 190s have the wgr 21 rocket tubes. But i would love to see the panzerblitz on the F8 but we would need a F9 as well to be more historical.

Also make sure they fire all at one time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

other than the R4Ms , the Panzerblitz cant only be fired all at once. so far i remember they could be fired in salvoes of 3 rockets. but that would be to much for the game engine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
so, like all other AG missiles , lets fire them in pairs . but hell , it will never happen in PFm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and not only F9 had these rockets, also lot of F8 . but sure a plane called "Fw190F9/PtzBl" would be nice. always equipted with the launchers under the wings. and WITH the posibillity to carry a 250kg load ( SC ore AB ) as addition to the rockets . also rockets & Droptank.

i realy dont know why oleg is so against this - it cant be such work to modifie the R$M to Panzerblitz2.
and he has already a lot of AP rockets on game , BRS-82,BRS-132 , HVAR AP , to have a basis calulartion for its damage model http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-25-2005, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
And for the p51D late not K H or F51

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/tuskshark.jpg

And I agree with you about private ryan the movie while being a great film you cannot judge it for realism even tho the mustang scene could have had rockets but would have been extremely rare, hvars on mustangs were very rare but infact were used in the eto and more widely used in the pto and med.

Just like this sim we can not judge it for historical accuracy but we try to get things as close as possible and it is considered whining. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

considering this URL http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/5in-rockets.html
june 44 would be a little bit to early for the HVARs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

used the US pilots in WW2 already helmets ?
so it looks realy more like a Korean War picture - that doesnt mean the P-51D doesnt used HVARs in WW2 !

and im also often annoyed seeing the P-47Ds in game with fuselage droptank still having these ugly wingracks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Aaron_GT
06-25-2005, 06:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We would need:

P-47D-30 or anything up to D-40
P-51 Bazookas
HVARs on FM-2
RS-82 on Hurricane Fieldmod
WGr.21 on 109G-6 and G-10 and G-14
PB 8.8 and PB II on 190F-8
Up to 8 82mm rockets on Il-2M
Bazooka and WGr.21 tubes droppable (at least I know of the 21s - it was possible to "blast" them off)
WGr.21 single shot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also 250lb bombs for the Hurricane IIC.

1000lb underwing bombs on the Beaufighter. Also naplam. Also the correct cannon loadout (283 rounds per gun, not the current 120 or so).

A gyro sight for the Spitfire IXe would also be appropriate.

LeadSpitter_
06-25-2005, 10:31 AM
JG53Frankyboy yes those 2 tuskegee airmen photos are from korea but is the d model, they also used them in north africa for ground attack as well.

I just couldnt find the iwojimo photos of 82nd TRS, 71st TRG p-51ds and others which used this hvar system in japan.

p1ngu666
06-25-2005, 10:41 AM
think the 1000lb couldnt be used on the centerline because of it being too low, see how low the drop tank is..

p1ngu666
06-25-2005, 10:41 AM
also, if u saw say 3000lb of ordinace could be that the rockets weight is 500lbs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Zyzbot
06-25-2005, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
JG53Frankyboy yes those 2 tuskegee airmen photos are from korea but is the d model, they also used them in north africa for ground attack as well.

I just couldnt find the iwojimo photos of 82nd TRS, 71st TRG p-51ds and others which used this hvar system in japan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Photo of HVAR on P-51 of 78th Fighter Squadron in the PTO:

Photo of P-51D with HVAR from 78th fighter Squadron in PTO:
http://glorene.com/aviation/78th/gallery/p51rocket.jpg

€œIn May the 78th Squadron aircraft were modified to carry the 140 pound 5 inch High Velocity Aircraft Rockets (HVARs). This added a new dimension to the P-51's capability. On the first use of the rockets against Matsudo airfield northeast of Tokyo, Major Jim Tapp and his wing man Captain Phil Maher set the whole hanger line on fire. The HVAR carried a modified 5 inch Naval gun projectile. The fighter sweeps were so devastating to the Japanese that they started evacuating their aircraft from southern Honshu as they got warning.€
http://www.glorene.com/aviation/7th/history.htm

CUJO_1970
06-25-2005, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

and not only F9 had these rockets, also lot of F8 . but sure a plane called "Fw190F9/PtzBl" would be nice. always equipted with the launchers under the wings. and WITH the posibillity to carry a 250kg load ( SC ore AB ) as addition to the rockets . also rockets & Droptank.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


AFAIK, there were about 151 FW190F-8 that were built to use the Panzerblitz rockets.

Not sure how many FW190F-9 Pb were used.

VW-IceFire
06-25-2005, 12:30 PM
Zyzbot, thats the picture we had before. So I think its safe to say that the PTO saw HVAR equipped Mustangs, but as for the ETO...I don't think so.

Lead, I'd love to see a D-30 or D-40 P-47. Don't get me wrong a'tall.

chris455
06-26-2005, 11:59 PM
"GIVE US US P-47N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Utchoud
06-28-2005, 10:49 AM
S! All,

There is some discussion on P-47 bombload. According to my sources, the P-47D had a B-7 shackle at the bottom of the fuselage since D-5 block (however, older blocks were retrofitted with them while some of the D-5s still hadn't them) and two B-10 shackles under the wing since D-15. Both B-7 and B-10 shackles could carry 1000lb bombs, and the P-47 could carry a 1000lb bomb on the B-7, but the maximum bomb load of the P-47 was limited to 2500 lb. The P-47N could carry 3000 lb of bombs, with B-10 shackles replaced by S-1 since block N-15.

Aaron_GT
06-28-2005, 05:15 PM
Utchoud - do you have any info on the clusters of 30lb bombs I've seen mentioned. They would be good to have.

Cajun76
06-28-2005, 05:55 PM
Also be nice if we could carry Extra Ammo when not carrying the maximum bomb or fuel load. If I could carry a 250, 500 or 1000lb bomb and extra ammo, I'd take that practically every time.

One of the vets mentioned his typical underwing loadout as being 2 1000lbers and a 250lb soft target cluster bomb on his centerline.

SkyChimp
06-28-2005, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Utchoud - do you have any info on the clusters of 30lb bombs I've seen mentioned. They would be good to have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got some. Let me upload them.

SkyChimp
06-28-2005, 06:16 PM
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/page1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/page2.jpg
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/page3.jpg
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/page4.jpg
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/page5.jpg

Utchoud
06-29-2005, 01:16 AM
Thanks, SkyChimp!

Threads like this are a great source of valuable information.

I have some other drawings, but I have to find somebody to scan them for me first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Copperhead310th
06-29-2005, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
JG53Frankyboy yes those 2 tuskegee airmen photos are from korea but is the d model, they also used them in north africa for ground attack as well.

I just couldnt find the iwojimo photos of 82nd TRS, 71st TRG p-51ds and others which used this hvar system in japan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try the 7th Af web site.
i'd dig up the link but i'm waay too tired at the moment. i'll have to hunt it up over the weekend. but thier are a few pics there of WWII p-51d's with HVAR's and there are photo's of p-47's with them or at least referances that they were used. From my information 2 1,000 lbs bombs mounted on wing pyolons + 1 500 lbs bomb mounted on the center line was common place.
<span class="ev_code_RED">and i'll say this yet again so that some of you will let it sink in. THEATER IS NO LONGER IMPORTANT. @ least for USAAF aircraft. what was avalible in the pacific should be included & avlible for use. JUST BECUSE IT WASN'T IN THE ETO DOES NOT MEAN IT SHOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM THE SIM.</span>

Just in case some of you may have forgotten the sim is now called PACIFIC FIGHTERS. Not Uber bullet proof bf-109 aces of the ETO. (swoosh)

he scores!

thank you. thank you. i'll be here all night.

please drive through.

Aaron_GT
06-30-2005, 04:10 PM
Thanks for that skychimp. Any chance of passing that info onto Oleg in the hope we get the fragmentation/cluster munitions in a patch/expansion?