PDA

View Full Version : Jews. God's people. *Possible Spoiler*



Kom0do_Drag0n
11-28-2009, 11:20 PM
The whole story behind AC amazes me. Since some of what AC contains has to do with the Bible, in a way eg: The Apple, Adam and Eve, God I would like to see what the Jews, being 'God's' people have to do with the story.

It has been specualted that these gods who tried to control mankind became the line of Templars and Adam, Eve became a possible resistance know as the Assassins.

So if the Templars descend from these 'gods' who cover up everything with religion and so forth, what part do the Jews play? Maybe they are some sort of special line of Templars, supreme in a sense being 'chosen people'.

Anyway just something I was thinking about as Jews play a major role in most religious beliefs and history.

Maybe Ubi could add something in the next.

*I'm not Jewish. I do not hate Jews. This is simply a discussion.

Kom0do_Drag0n
11-28-2009, 11:20 PM
The whole story behind AC amazes me. Since some of what AC contains has to do with the Bible, in a way eg: The Apple, Adam and Eve, God I would like to see what the Jews, being 'God's' people have to do with the story.

It has been specualted that these gods who tried to control mankind became the line of Templars and Adam, Eve became a possible resistance know as the Assassins.

So if the Templars descend from these 'gods' who cover up everything with religion and so forth, what part do the Jews play? Maybe they are some sort of special line of Templars, supreme in a sense being 'chosen people'.

Anyway just something I was thinking about as Jews play a major role in most religious beliefs and history.

Maybe Ubi could add something in the next.

*I'm not Jewish. I do not hate Jews. This is simply a discussion.

Edengoth
11-28-2009, 11:47 PM
*hears Danvish approaching in the distance* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

JudgeQwerty
11-29-2009, 01:05 AM
Ever notice the astonishing lack of Jews in AC? I always imagine they're those folks you're always rescuing, but really, that's just I'm just guessing. We have Crusaders, Popes, and a definite proof of Jesus, but no real mention of their forebears.

Redfeather1975
11-29-2009, 03:39 AM
Adam and Eve are a part of the Abrahamic religions, and that includes Judaism.
There are other religions that have similar tales to how the first man and woman came to exist.

But in the game they say that religions were just gross misinterpretations of things humans simply couldn't comprehend and in the end failed to express accurately.

If they were going to explore other religions, I think it would be more neat to delve into Zoroastrianism. It has some pretty cool concepts. Although Prince of Persia seems to be borrowing a lot of it for its lore, so maybe Ubisoft does not wish for the AC series to also use it.

magesupermaster
11-29-2009, 04:16 AM
im also jewish

they are not special templars but it is said we are the chosen people

wieetsguy
11-29-2009, 06:59 AM
Jews never were big players in the whole Holy Land mess, until recently. At that time most Jews were in different communities in Europe.

Cataclypse
11-29-2009, 07:37 AM
I find it strange that no one seems to be interested in the - to my mind - obvious Satanic, or at any rate Luciferian tendencies of these two games. First off, how about the game title's initials for an easy giveaway? Assassin's Creed = AC = Anti-Christ.

Secondly, this is further confirmed by the fact that the games are about fighting against the supposedly evil and corrupt templars, the Christian army, who work to enslave the entire planet's population by controlling people's minds, which the assassin order attempts to stop by, supposedly, freeing the forbidden fruit of knowledge from the evil clutches of the Christian order. Lucifer was the angel who refused to kneel before Man, was sent to Hell as punishment, and, ****ed at God, tricked Eve to trick Adam to eat the forbidden fruit of knowledge, thus making them realize "what was going on", and thereby making them responsible for their actions where before they were the innocent creation of the God YHVH. Satan - as he was called after his fall to Hell - wanted to force Mankind to take responsibility for its actions by revealing The Truth. In AC2 subject 16 does precisely that by leaving the glyph clues. Note also that Subject 16 is depicted as a victim of his oppressors, the ministers of Christianity.

Then there's the creed of the assassins, which stems from Hassan I Sabbah, the old man of the mountain, where he had his castle Alamut, which in the game instead is called Mazyaf. Hassan was, according to the meager amount of clear evidence there is about this man, at one time a prominent figure in the politics of Persia who, after he was disbarred and exiled, according to what some sources claim, formed one of the most efficient means to control people throughout recorded history, namely, the Hashishims, or Assassins as they later came to be known. He used an ingenious manipulation technique to convert people and to live by the creed of his order, and he used the Assassins to control politics from the shadows. By many he was seen as an "evil" person, much like he is depicted in the first game, but he was most likely a great genius in the tactics of war and politics.

Anyway, his creed was the same as in the game: nothing is true, everything is permissible. The first game initiates the player into the meaning of this creed - at the end Altair realizes that there is an equal amount of responsibility connected to the freedom of knowing the truth.

The real assassins were indoctrinated by coming through a number of circuits, at each one learning a higher truth than in the preceding one, each time learning that what they thought they knew before was a lie and that the version offered in the circuit they were presently in was the truth, until they came to the last circuit where they learned that _nothing_ is true, and therefore everything is permitted; so in a sense, they were set free of any limitations. Or so they thought, because they still had Hassan to thank for this revelation, and they had come to this insight by way of his teachings, so they were still his puppets.

By the way, I believe the Assassins might be the inspiration for modern day suicide bombers, because their technique seems quite similar. The assassins were initiated as mentioned above, and when they got to the last part of the truth, they were "killed", but really they were just put to sleep, then drugged with hash and opium and awoke in a cave with beautiful women, hot springs and all kinds of Heaven-like paraphernalia. Hassan was sitting in front of them and telling them that this was merely a taste of what was to come when they died and went to Heaven. And then they were initiated and sent out to infiltrate political leaders which Hassan wanted to have killed when the time was right. They were so feared because they weren't afraid of death, because naturally they knew that it would be fantastic to die, so they took the cuttings when the guards came with a smile, and thus they seemed unstoppable. (If you think this theory is racist, I think you are ridiculous. It's not, and I'm not. I'm talking about terrorists, not Muslims.)

When playing through the first game, I thought it was anti-Christian from a strictly Muslim point of view, but the Quran tells about the same story as the Bible/Torah/Book of the Dead/Bhagavad Gita/etc. etc. do, namely, in short, a story about worshipping the Sun - incorporated as The Son - out of which all life stems. The prophet (Son) is the revealer of God's plan for Man, just as in the game, he is merely the medium God uses to bring the Word out to people.

SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING!

When the game ends, Lucy - which sounds suspiciously like Lucifer, don't you think? - tells Desmond (Demon?) that the Earth's magnetic sphere is weakened and that a strong enough solar flare might revert the magnetic polarity, making life on Earth very unstable. This and almost all of the regular conspiracy theories baked into the game that you can find some Christian end-times wacko blabbering about on youtube, is also consistent with the theory that these are Satanic games, because, for one thing, as Lucy tells him this, Desmond asks "so either way, we're ****ed?" and Lucy says: "We have to do some more research before we know for certain,' which doesn't exactly offer a lot of hope. Exactly what Satan would've wanted, seeing as He knew full well that He couldn't win against God, so all He could do instead was to corrupt Man, God's most prized creation, and what better way to do that than to a) give Man the ability to discern falseness from truth, and then b) corrupt the truth by making everything seem hopeless to Man, by e.g. telling Him He's ****ed.
Yes, you are correct; this is a vague theory and it's also quite obvious that it's an excellent cliffhanger for the sequel, but this is revealed directly after Desmond learns that the Sun is ****ed and we have to fight against it, so guess what the third game is about. Man fighting against God (The Sun), guided by Satan's promise that The Sun has to be controlled by Man for Man to survive what's coming.

Note also that Lucifer is the revealer of truth, also depicted as Loke and Prometheus in other religions, where He brings fire to Man after stealing it from the gods. Lucifer, being an egomaniac, doesn't reveal His knowledge the laidback way God does it, by using a Prophet, but tells it to people directly. Notice how the apparition in Ezio's vision looks right into the camera, into the player's eyes. We've all been hexed/h4xx0r3d, you guys! God save us all!

So how do you like them apples?

Cataclypse
11-29-2009, 08:35 AM
Oh, and I noticed the rest of the posters in this thread gave their religions. I'm a Thelemite myself. We're kind of Luciferian as well, balancing the two opposites to create a third synergistic concept.

To my mind, the Tree of Knowledge was naturally the symbol of knowledge, and was forbidden to innocent Man because The Truth takes responsibility, which YHVH didn't want Man to bear just yet (for a reason that would take too much text to include here).

Satan are The Opponents, and Lucifer the revealer of the truth, and the latter thereby offers the possibility of experience by introducing the possibility of chaos if Man fouls up. Satan have no good intentions for Man; the *******s just want everything to be destroyed since they (yes, they, remember; Satan tells Christ "We are legion", and not a person, as Catholicism would have us believe) can't win, but Man is created perfect, so He has the ability to learn to harmonize truth and reunite His bond with God again.

To come up on the brink again after traversing the valley isn't the same as standing on the first brink. Man after The Fall, is in the valley, struggling to find His way out again.
That's what life's all about to my mind; to find our way back to ever-blissful enlightenment by disentangling from Karma. And this is what was introduced by Lucifer/Satan/Belzebub/Leviathan, the four ultimate aspects of Man's demise. But it was still sinful to give this burden to Man so early.

So on the one hand, we have the good thing about Lucifer: the revealer, offering Man a chance to become as strong as God (but with Lucifer at the reins, of course).
And on the other, we have the bad thing, that God might already have had a plan, which Satan destroyed by manipulating Man to commit the forbidden sin.
So both concepts might be able to lead us to The Truth, but that truth will still merely be the awareness of it, not the existence of it. Lucifer would most likely - for He is an egomaniac - have us see ourselves as deserving of God's status when we get there, just to mess with The Man.
Since we need to get to the existence itself, we need to allow ourselves to be surpassed, to lose our pride and allow God's plan to work its way, no matter if we understand it or not. This is why Satanism is foolish; it's merely self deluding madness.

So that's the remedy in case you've been h4xxed by the games.

On the other hand though, a genuine Satanist would tell you to consider the source, so there's no telling really, what the real game plan is...

katz_bg
11-29-2009, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JudgeQwerty:
Ever notice the astonishing lack of Jews in AC? I always imagine they're those folks you're always rescuing, but really, that's just I'm just guessing. We have Crusaders, Popes, and a definite proof of Jesus, but no real mention of their forebears. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There were Jews in the first game. You can find some near the synagogue in Jerusalem.

Cryps1
11-29-2009, 08:46 AM
Cataclypse...The end of Ac2 explains that there are no real "Gods"..only those who came before. They were pretty much on a higher plane of existence than us. They were highly intelligent and had high tech stuff. they created humans as what seems to be a slave work force. This can be seen in " The Truth" video, where Adam and Eve are climbing the building, and they see a dark shaded evil figure holding the Apple, watching as the humans do work. The dark figure holding the Apple is the Devil, and he is just the one who enforces the work upon the Human Slaves. This could mean that the Devil and the Gods ( Minerva..etc) are on the same side, and only wish to have a slave force. Adam and Eve are the only humans to somehow reject the mind control mechanism of the pieces of Eden. This could mean that all the Assassins are direct descendants of Adam and Eve, as they try to fight for Freedom for Humans. The templars could then be the Devils, trying to obtain the pieces of eden so they can control the minds of all humans.

Cataclypse
11-29-2009, 08:55 AM
Yes, I totally agree with you, Cryps1. I missed a hole bunch of your theory myself, so thanks for revealing it. Note, however, that this only further enhances the Satanist theory of the game, since it plays well in Satan's hands that Man must be freed from the gods, no matter if Satan pretends to be one of them.

idrenegade
11-29-2009, 09:02 AM
Cataclypse... interesting ideas. The only issue I had with your whole break down was that the old man in the first game Al Mualim, was based on Rashid ad-Din Sinan (nicknamed the Old Man on the Mountain) not Hassan. And Alamut was still out there, it and Masyaf are not the same place. But neither of those brings any issues to your points. I find that the games aren't anti-christian or anti any religion so much as trying to get those of us who pay attention, to realize that no religion is right. I'm a Christian with no real denomination. Had to throw that in there. And Cryps1... We have no idea if that was the "Devil" considering Minerva was also wearing the black. But I'll bet if anything comes out about it, the one later to be called "Satan" would be the one who gave Adam and Eve the apple and helped them escape. --EDIT-- Earlier I meant to say aren't anti-christian.

Cataclypse
11-29-2009, 09:06 AM
Thanks, Idrenegade! I wasn't aware of any other prominent figures of the sect. Checked it out now.

Vozlov-3-0
11-29-2009, 09:08 AM
Cata- So what your saying is that really the hologram at the end of the game was merely a double bluff by lucifer? Who is very much real as is God and this is a trick for us?

If that ending happens i'd be so annoyed.

Edengoth
11-29-2009, 09:44 AM
2 things, Cata:
TL,DNR
and
You'd make a really good conspiracy theorist.

An_Idea
11-29-2009, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cataclypse:
how about the game title's initials for an easy giveaway? Assassin's Creed = AC = Anti-Christ.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

Cataclypse
11-29-2009, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KexN:
Cata- So what your saying is that really the hologram at the end of the game was merely a double bluff by lucifer? Who is very much real as is God and this is a trick for us? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, within the limits of what the games try to show us, that's my theory. That the game developers, Dooma Wendschuh and Corey May are behind it all. THEY are trying to take over the world by manipulating gamers to "think for themselves" when really the bleeding effect of the Animus (the Jungian term for the passive part of the consciousness, where they try to get in and control us) is truly bleeding over to us; we use the controllers or keyboards to control Ezio and Altair in certain patterns, whilst interacting with the environment in certain ways, and all the while are being led down a path to a version of reality in which we are somehow in their control; not their, but their master, Lucifer, that black angel. Heed my words, brothers and sisters! etc. etc.

But no, seriously, I just think these are interesting concepts. The world is already owned by large corporations like EA Games, Microsoft and McDonalds. They control much better means to _control_ us. But they don't necessarily offer us something to believe in, so that we no longer have to be controlled by them, but will go willingly into slavery, believing that we are free.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KexN:
If that ending happens i'd be so annoyed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But wouldn't it be kind of cool too?

JudgeQwerty
11-29-2009, 01:40 PM
Back on the Jew-related question, did anyone else notice that WWII was set up by the Templars? I keep wondering if the Holocaust happened the same way in this world.

starkiller1991
11-29-2009, 02:31 PM
I feel sorry for the Jews. They've been attacked by almost every civilization since their beginning. That's gotta suck.

Also, does anyone know what the Father of Understanding is. I keep hearing the Templars mention it in the game.

Grafferu
11-29-2009, 04:06 PM
@ Cataclypse
first...if a person is stupid enough to be manipulated by a video game, then that person, in my opinion, deserves to be controlled by Microsoft, masons, Illuminati, EA Games, Jesus, Lucifer or whatever other fairy tale you prefer
second...there are no such tings as anti-christs, gods, santa clauses, devils, and so on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif get over it

idrenegade
11-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Well, since we are back on topic, I do find it funny that a short man who basically was trying to be a professional artist got control of a failing society and very quickly made it rise to a super-power status. That does lead a conspiracy theorist to believe he had some help, funding and a good lot of push behind him.

Rouzeki-San
11-29-2009, 05:25 PM
It kind of seems like you might be a wee bit offended by the church being part of the templars conspiriacy. That's where i think you got this whole "anti-christ" business.

let me say, and you can verify this, that in the old testament, there is no evidence that Lucifer and Satan are the same being, just that they are both "fallen" angels. And there is no mention of satan/lucifer being the "devil", that's in the New Testament.

spoilers spoilers spoilers



so as far as I'm concerned the idea of the "devil" has only been around for 2 thousand years. whereas Assassin's Creed storyline spans far past that (i.e. adam and eve).

though i do believe that Satan may play a role in the story at some point, given the story of the apple and all. though, based off the story so far, he will most likely be one of "those who came before/the gods", not a "devil".

Assassin's Creed 2 pretty much verified that all religion is a misinterpretation of the past, i highly doubt that the AC's creators would pull a fast one and reveal that it was really god vs satan the whole time.

the story that they have works, and it works well.

Please remember that this is a social gaming forum, not a religion/philosphy one. thank you.

Cataclypse
11-30-2009, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
second...there are no such tings as anti-christs, gods, santa clauses, devils, and so on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif get over it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can prove this then?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by starkiller1991:
Also, does anyone know what the Father of Understanding is. I keep hearing the Templars mention it in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. It's widely known that the Templars worshipped Baphomet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet

Quoting from the page:
"Arkon Daraul proposed that "Baphomet" may derive from the Arabic word ??? ???? Abu fihama(t), meaning "The Father of Understanding".

Cataclypse
11-30-2009, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
It kind of seems like you might be a wee bit offended by </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not offended at all. Like I said, either way, I'm a Thelemite, not a Christian, and my religion is about embracing all religions and faiths, whatever they be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
let me say, and you can verify this, that in the old testament, there is no evidence that Lucifer and Satan are the same being, just that they are both "fallen" angels. And there is no mention of satan/lucifer being the "devil", that's in the New Testament. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I can verify that there are mentions of Satan and Lucifer in the old testament, if you look in the Pseudepigrapha. And also, John Milton's Paradise Lost mentions this. PL is considered to be an accepted account of the expulsion from Paradise by a lot of Christian authorities, the same way The Divine Comedy is of Christian mythology.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
so as far as I'm concerned the idea of the "devil" has only been around for 2 thousand years. whereas Assassin's Creed storyline spans far past that (i.e. adam and eve). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "devil" and Satan are not the same. Satan is a much, much older invention than Catholicism's personification of the concept is. Egyptians have about the same meaning for Seth, Arabs have Shaitan (if my spelling is correct), and so on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
though i do believe that Satan may play a role in the story at some point, given the story of the apple and all. though, based off the story so far, he will most likely be one of "those who came before/the gods", not a "devil". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what they _want_ you to think, man.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
Assassin's Creed 2 pretty much verified that all religion is a misinterpretation of the past, i highly doubt that the AC's creators would pull a fast one and reveal that it was really god vs satan the whole time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is probably what we will be consciously aware of seeing at least.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
the story that they have works, and it works well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The story is wonderful and I love it! I'm arguing that it might be Luciferian, not that it's bad in any way. Perhaps you took some of my comments too seriously. You should read anything I write with about 30-60% irony and whatnot if you want to get what I'm saying.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rouzeki-San:
Please remember that this is a social gaming forum, not a religion/philosphy one. thank you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't see how I have stepped out of line so far, since all I've been doing in this thread is argue whatever discussion points that's come up, but please indicate specifically what I'm doing wrong, if that's what you mean.

Deity Matrix
11-30-2009, 01:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cataclypse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
second...there are no such tings as anti-christs, gods, santa clauses, devils, and so on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif get over it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can prove this then?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, wow Cataclypse, you are one crazy mother! Btw I mean that in a good way, lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But anyway, I had to mention that you make a point right here. Actually seriously, now. It's really sad for all the people like Grafferu, playing right into the trap. Putting God and Satan with Santa Claus, lol. Wow man, you need a serious history lesson and deep spiritual counseling. I really do feel sad for you, as you join the growing masses. Thinking you're right and wise in your own eyes is the sign of a true fool.

The fool says in his heart "There is no God"
-Psalm 14:1

And btw, both of you guys should check out the disclaimer before the start of both games when you turn them on. The makers of the game are of "various religious faiths and beliefs" and the game is "a work of fiction". They didn't say that just so they wouldn't get sued, they said that because it's true and that makes the biggest point about the game's story:

They're using their imaginations, and purposely creating a story that defies their beliefs on purpose. They know that they're just connecting a bunch of conspiracy theories to make the story seem that much more real and likely as some hidden knowledge or secret, that is actually believeable to an audience today. And they're right, it makes a great story. Unfortunately, that's all it is, and that's all it will ever be.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-30-2009, 02:15 AM
"Satan" derives from the title (as in a "title of office")"Ha Satan" in the Hebrew. In the Qabalistic sense, "Ha Satan" carries with it a whole set of symbols and associations that go much deeper than "The Evil guy with horns and a pitch fork." (Which Cataclypse knows if he/she is a good Thelemite. I am joking! 93!)

Anyroad, so called "inner mystery" teachings aside, the term "Satan" is still misunderstood by the vulgar. "Ha Satan" being a title (The Accuser, its actual translation)whose function it was to argue against the sinner at the time of Judgment (think of a District attorney from beyond!) That being the case, ANY "angel" may hold that title at any given time; i.e.. "Satan" is not a name proper, but a job description.

This of course, is all old testament.

With the new testament, you have a new set of characteristics evolve (That old Scratch is a wily fellow!) The early Christians absorbed the IDEA of "Satan" as a kind of "Root of all Evil" an actual "Doer of Evil" not just a being that pointed out the evil one has already done all on their own! It is believed one of the main reasons for the shift was due to the fact that early Christianity was in fierce competition with many other fledgling religions at the time; the main rival being...Zoroastrianism. The "Satan" of earlier tradition, the Accuser, was not going over well with most who were deeply rooted in a dualistic world-view, "Satan" (as a job description) was not nasty enough. Zoroastrianism, having a VERY dualistic paradigm (Ahriman/Evil being just as powerful as Ahura Mazda/good) meant Christianity had to adapt to win converts (just as it has incorporated many other myth sets, The "Solar myth" being the chief example. Hmmm, the Sun again...).

And further, none of this probably matters as I think the game-world has defined quite clearly what "Gods" are. Which is to type; They are not Gods. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

But, that does leave many an interesting avenue for the game designers/writers to go using varying Myth sets.

Cataclypse
11-30-2009, 03:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
"Satan" derives from the title (as in a "title of office")"Ha Satan" in the Hebrew. In the Qabalistic sense, "Ha Satan" carries with it a whole set of symbols and associations that go much deeper than "The Evil guy with horns and a pitch fork." (Which Cataclypse knows if he/she is a good Thelemite. I am joking! 93!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

93 fellow Thelemite! I take it you are only half joking, so I point out that I at several places in this thread denied that pitch fork-version of Satan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
And further, none of this probably matters as I think the game-world has defined quite clearly what "Gods" are. Which is to type; They are not Gods. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once more then, the gist of my entire argument: That's what they _want_ you to think, wo/man. You, as a Thelemite, should, I think, at least agree with my very first suggestion about AC being Anti-Christ, as in Aleister Crowley, no?

Grafferu
11-30-2009, 10:08 AM
@ Cataclypse & DeityMatrix
rofl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif you guys, I could say the same things about you 2 "I really do feel sad for you, as you join the growing masses" or "can you proove the existence of god, satan, devil, anti-christ, santa-clause ?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif but this discussion will lead nowhere since I had it too many times with religious indoctrinated people
on topic now...since jews are god's people, that means all the other nations are on a lower rank, and that makes your god a bit selfish and cruel don't you think ? choosing 1 nation in favor of the others, didn't he made us all equal or something ?

PlagueDoctor357
11-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Ok, now im not trying to make anyone angry im simply asking and telling.

What do you think about Moses? Do you truly believe this guy stuck 2 of every animal and insect onto a boat and kept it afloat for 40 days or whatever it was?

Im curious about what true believers think of things like these tales.

Myself, i'd rather believe that this planet was just a random series of scientific events that over time evolved and bam here we are.

I do however believe in jesus as a man. I THINK they smoked lots of marijuana back then. They also ate lots of moldy bread.

So when this guy crossed the desert, drinking cactus water (peyote) maybe he was just tripping out when he talked to burning bushes or satan or whatever happened.

Perhaps he was really smart, and fooled people when they were stoned, by knowing the precise day salmon swim upstream, and getting the people to believe he created some miracle of fish.

Guess we'll never really know, unless aliens descend upon us and tell us the truth.

If jesus were to be reborn now, chances are he'd be thrown in an institution when people thought he was just some maniac with the powers of Criss angel.

Cataclypse
11-30-2009, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
since jews are god's people, that means all the other nations are on a lower rank, and that makes your god a bit selfish and cruel don't you think ? choosing 1 nation in favor of the others, didn't he made us all equal or something ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well actually YHVH offered several other people to accept The Law (Torah), but the Jews were the ones who accepted it. Plus, anyone can convert to the Jewish tradition and become a chosen one in that faith.

A lot of people I've discussed religion with - who have mostly been born and raised in a culture dominated by a Protestant Christian (Hmm, PC btw, as in Political Correctness; I've always wondered about that and the strong tendency to follow the norm and denying one's individuality in this bloody country...) belief system - have usually argued against "religion" because they think that the ten commandments are a bad thing to put on people since they think "God" is a selfish "person" who simply wants people to bow down to Him.
To my mind though, the Torah is more like saying "This is how it all works, you guys. The choice is yours, but the offer to become enlightened along this path is there for anyone. This is the way to do it, though. That's why it's called The Law, mkay."

NoxieDC
11-30-2009, 11:38 AM
^That was Noah.
I think the story is about starting over again. Destroy and forget the sinful world of the past, and with few uncorrupted elements rebuild your life so that it works out better. Symbolically, it could mean that.
(I suck at story telling http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
@ Cataclypse & DeityMatrix
rofl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif you guys, I could say the same things about you 2 "I really do feel sad for you, as you join the growing masses" or "can you proove the existence of god, satan, devil, anti-christ, santa-clause ?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif but this discussion will lead nowhere since I had it too many times with religious indoctrinated people </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you know that was ironic. James Rhandy laughs at you!

Redfeather1975
11-30-2009, 06:15 PM
Cataclypse, you might want to consider the many other belief systems out there, before commiting to a theory on what AC may or may not be about.

The series was produced by people of many different faiths. Some of those belief systems you may not be intimately familiar with yet. All of them are very interesting and worth a look.

There are faiths, for example, that believe Monasticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasticism) is unwise. Especially when pursued along paths that begin to marginalize existence through concepts of right and wrong.
You could say it stems from the belief that all things that are, are part of a conflict in how to express some fundamental truth. That truth could be expressed as a state of being, or one could personify it into a concept of God if they wished.
Regardless of how you want to describe it, it is believed that if one's pursuit is to define this state, or being, without proper attention or compassion paid towards all things that exist, the result is contributing to burying the truth further in a battlefield of conflict and unjust oppression.

I am not entirely sure I am communicating what I mean properly. There is much out there to study, before investing in the idea that you know for certain what something means.

JudgeQwerty
11-30-2009, 07:14 PM
Or alternatively, the game is just about assassins and tyrants fghting over alien artifacts. Sometimes an 'extinct alien race who bioengineered humans' is just an 'extinct alien race who bioengineered humans'...

The religious stuff comes after the fact, not later.

Cataclypse
11-30-2009, 10:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Redfeather1975:
Cataclypse, you might want to consider the many other belief systems out there, before commiting to a theory on what AC may or may not be about.

The series was produced by people of many different faiths. Some of those belief systems you may not be intimately familiar with yet. All of them are very interesting and worth a look.

There are faiths, for example, that believe Monasticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasticism) is unwise. Especially when pursued along paths that begin to marginalize existence through concepts of right and wrong.
You could say it stems from the belief that all things that are, are part of a conflict in how to express some fundamental truth. That truth could be expressed as a state of being, or one could personify it into a concept of God if they wished.
Regardless of how you want to describe it, it is believed that if one's pursuit is to define this state, or being, without proper attention or compassion paid towards all things that exist, the result is contributing to burying the truth further in a battlefield of conflict and unjust oppression. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Monasticism is quite common, as a matter of fact, since you bring that example up. I've encountered several of the examples taken up on that Wikipedia page. But why bring a faith that entirely renounces materialism to a discussion about the story of a video-game?
I take it you meant that as merely one of many possible examples, but I have yet to think of a single one that would debunk any type of battle between opposing forces, including Monasticism, or even Taoism, which I find to be an even better example to use in order to make the point you seem to be making, because they're all battling against something; either it is a strict polarity between two antipodes, or a mesh of concepts that must be harmonized and seen holistically, such as e.g. Hinduism with its thousandfold system. In Monastic faiths, the battle is to guard against battling. Or if there is no battle, why call it a faith at all? Either there is a _certain_ way, or _anything_ you do is okay, such as the assassin's creed states. This is what you mean, I take it? But what I mean above is that this is a paradox, since there is a creed guiding its followers in a certain way, yes?

No, Redfeather1975 - or should I say RedHerring, because you are clearly working for Them in a clever attempt to diminish my standpoint - I'm afraid the game really is trying to suck us all in to its evil mystery, wherein which we shall become not only its slaves but slaves of the entire corporate elite, which has an armada of similar means, but of which the Anti-Christ games are their culmination.
There is really only one way to be saved. To buy my book, read it and then join my own sect. Obviously I can't give you any URLs here or They will know, but keep an eye out on the web and use the clues I've given in this thread. Only true aspirants will find meaning in the clues, so this is a foolproof way to guide my flock.

Redfeather1975
11-30-2009, 10:59 PM
You're alright Cataclypse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Maybe I will buy your book if I can find it.

But my bookshelf is horizontal, not vertical. I cannot put anyone's book above another's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

P.S. This topic is really interesting!

Deity Matrix
11-30-2009, 11:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
@ Cataclypse & DeityMatrix
rofl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif you guys, I could say the same things about you 2 "I really do feel sad for you, as you join the growing masses" or "can you proove the existence of god, satan, devil, anti-christ, santa-clause ?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif but this discussion will lead nowhere since I had it too many times with religious indoctrinated people
on topic now...since jews are god's people, that means all the other nations are on a lower rank, and that makes your god a bit selfish and cruel don't you think ? choosing 1 nation in favor of the others, didn't he made us all equal or something ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. Typical. Whatcha gonna do when you try to help and the societally indoctrinated idiot thinks he's special? Oh well.

Edit: Oh and I almost forgot,

***content edited - don't insult your forum members again

Deity Matrix
11-30-2009, 11:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NoxieDC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
@ Cataclypse & DeityMatrix
rofl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif you guys, I could say the same things about you 2 "I really do feel sad for you, as you join the growing masses" or "can you proove the existence of god, satan, devil, anti-christ, santa-clause ?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif but this discussion will lead nowhere since I had it too many times with religious indoctrinated people </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you know that was ironic. James Rhandy laughs at you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ironic indeed, only because he refuses to accept the facts that he joins more of the typical egocentric fools who believe they know "the truth". Lol, this game will only encourage them, unfortunately. Irony has a funny way with things, huh?

wieetsguy
12-01-2009, 03:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeityMatrix:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NoxieDC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
@ Cataclypse & DeityMatrix
rofl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif you guys, I could say the same things about you 2 "I really do feel sad for you, as you join the growing masses" or "can you proove the existence of god, satan, devil, anti-christ, santa-clause ?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif but this discussion will lead nowhere since I had it too many times with religious indoctrinated people </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you know that was ironic. James Rhandy laughs at you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ironic indeed, only because he refuses to accept the facts that he joins more of the typical egocentric fools who believe they know "the truth". Lol, this game will only encourage them, unfortunately. Irony has a funny way with things, huh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't it enough to see a beautiful garden, without believing fairies are at the bottom of it too?

Alta´r's Codex page 20, beyond all this "video game" thing, is a pretty good philosophical observation:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have studied the ancient pagan faiths that came before this more recent obsession with a single, divine creator. They seem to have focused more on the fundamental forces at play in the world around us and less on arbitrary moral rules...

The sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. The tides ebb and flow. Grass grows, withers, dies, and then in time, emerges from the ground once more. The air turns warm then cools and back again. Some hidden energy keeps us fitted to the ground and pulls us back when we attempt to leave it.

Each of these movements was represented before by a god or goddess. Each force given face, but recognized as something distinct and powerful. Which is not to say there were not connections between these forces - a pantheon of individual spirits - of rules. Invisible hands guiding the progress of the world around us.

And so here there was an attempt to categorize, study, explain, and understand the way things work - even if it was flawed. But no more. Now we are asked to succumb to a far more simplified explanation. How naive to believe there might be a single answer to every question. Every mystery. That there exists a lone divine light which rules over all. They say it is a light that brings truth and love. I say it is a light that blinds us - and forces us to stumble about in ignorance.

I long for the day when men turn away from invisible monsters and once more embrace a more rational view of the world. But these new religions are so convenient - and promise such terrible punishment should one reject them - I worry that fear shall keep us stuck to what is surely the greatest lie ever told. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Redfeather1975
12-01-2009, 03:11 AM
Yeah Altair's codex pages are pretty deep.

He isn't afraid to question the ways of the assassins, which must have shaken his faith in what they were doing sometimes.
He isn't afraid to question the strength of his own will, which must sting his ego.
He isn't even afraid to question the enormously popular faith systems that controlled the lands, even though they often threatened eternal damnation on those who did question them.

But in the end, he was afraid to die.
And I wonder if it made him do something he shouldn't have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Cataclypse
12-01-2009, 03:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wieetsguy:
Isn't it enough to see a beautiful garden, without believing fairies are at the bottom of it too?

[...]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I long for the day when men turn away from invisible monsters and once more embrace a more rational view of the world. But these new religions are so convenient - and promise such terrible punishment should one reject them - I worry that fear shall keep us stuck to what is surely the greatest lie ever told. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To answer your question: not if you want to go beyond your rational expectations and achieve more than They would have you believe yourself capable of. To quote Aleister Crowley:

"It is by going through all these confusing (and sometimes seemingly contradictory) attributions, with unwearying patience and persistent energy, that one comes at the end to a lucid understanding, to an understanding which is infinitely clearer than any intellectual interpretation could possibly be. This is a fundamental exercise in the way of initiation. If one were a shallow rationalist, it would be quite easy to pick holes in all these attributions and semi-philosophical hypotheses, or near-hypotheses; but it is also quite simple to prove by mathematics that it is impossible to hit a golf ball."

/Aleister Crowley, The Book of Thoth

Another important thing to take up is the ruling elite's means of betraying humanity, making it into a slave force. They very often use the technique of Discordianism, i.e. to spread out a bundle of semi-truths in which both THE lie and THE truth are hidden, so that people will discuss endlessly which one is believable or not, while those weak enough to desire a slave force can do their evil works in peace, behind the curtain. Politicians are mere actors, spouting rhetoric to make people believe that they have a say in how they are treated. No government laying claims to democracy anywhere on this planet has been democratic ever since the state of Athens; it's the charade made for the same purpose as religions have been used to subvert large groups of people into one faith; slave and master, the rest is a lie.

One way out is to stop being a consumer and live life as if no suppressor existed at all; not rioting or destroying existing systems, but simply forgetting them and live peacefully as individuals. To do this, however, more than rational sense is necessary. Rationality is only a tiny facet of anything we experience. That we are taught that rational sense is the only way to discover "truth" is part of Their lies. What they are trying to achieve is a way to control all the rationally explainable phenomena we detect, so that we will seize asking for higher truths beyond that part of our scopes.

In difference to Altair, I long for a day when people will seek out new systems, beginning with anything outside the box, such as what is considered piracy, one branch of the open source community, which will bring an end to the corporate society and partly free us of the grasp of commonality, free from that unity of a New World Order.

NoxieDC
12-01-2009, 08:56 AM
Cataclypse: what exactly are you suggesting? That humans live as individuals, without relying on corporations? I do enjoy the idea of total liberty but that would mean you yourself would have to start alone anew. If you're going to be satisfied with a relaxed way of life (as in, you're not going to aspire to be a great leader of any sort), then very well. But could you break away from the way you were born: part of a family, part of a country, part of a group that might reject your ideas? And be alone?
And if you wont and will (for example) become a powerful artist that holds the world to new light and inspires other to "break free" and follow you, wouldn't that make you the same fascist as the corporations you're so against? Would you renounce the glory? Or else, how far should we walk away from _them_?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeityMatrix:
Ironic indeed, only because he refuses to accept the facts that he joins more of the typical egocentric fools who believe they know "the truth". Lol, this game will only encourage them, unfortunately. Irony has a funny way with things, huh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fail. It's a theory, an idea meant to make you think what if. It's symbolism, it's a way to make the story more interesting and deep. Have you learned nothing from this franchise? Nothing is true.

Meaning we can speculate to make up new meanings and go beyond the story of Assassin vs Templar. The use of Lucifer as a revelation is quite interesting and can be applied today in the "war" between social groups. So shove it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cataclypse
12-01-2009, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NoxieDC:
Cataclypse: what exactly are you suggesting? That humans live as individuals, without relying on corporations? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A simple thing: That anyone willing to do so live as they want. This statement implies that no one inhibits others from living their own way. It's liberalism taken to its extreme. But since the corporate driven world today has taken up almost all resources, there is not enough for all wills as they are to proceed as they choose, and therefore conflicts will arise everywhere with such a system. These are resolved by the same means as the initial statement itself: by not inhibiting others, which is to say by negotiation without any authority regulating any such process. In practice, this means that you do whatever you want until someone disagrees with you. Then you discuss the matter with the aim of reaching the most energy efficient setup for all parties involved. Thus, the highest amount of freedom is guaranteed. This is needed because disorder is the way of the world of humans right now, so that any authority driven strategy will fail before it becomes efficient on large enough scales to be rooted as societal standards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NoxieDC:
But could you break away from the way you were born: part of a family, part of a country, part of a group that might reject your ideas? And be alone? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NoxieDC:
light and inspires other to "break free" and follow you, wouldn't that make you the same fascist as the corporations you're so against? Would you renounce the glory? Or else, how far should we walk away from _them_? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A fascist is a person enforcing pragmatism in the form of regime, which is paradoxical and imo detrimental to progress, because it inhibits individual freedom. This goes against my own philosophy, as stated above.

How do you mean that the breaking away into individual governments is to force others? And as for the inspiration/Messiah part, there's an old Chinese saying:

Go to the People.
Live among them,
Love them,
Learn from them.
Start from where they are,
Work with them,
Build on what they have.
But with the best leaders,
When the task is accomplished,
The work completed,
The people all remark:
We have done it ourselves.

As for me, I care too much about my own work to worry enough about others to ever become a leader of any sort, but thanks for implying it!

Grafferu
12-01-2009, 03:35 PM
@ Plague Doctor
haha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I agree with you 99% ... the other 1% of disagreement goes to Jesus not existing at all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif that's what I think, and I got proof for that

@ Cataclypse
so YHVH offered several other people to accept The Law (Torah), but the Jews were the ones who accepted it ? can you prove that ? I seriously doubt it

@ Judge
great point http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

@ DeityMatrix
did you just called me an "societally indoctrinated idiot" and a "fool" ? hmmm ok, I could say worst things than that about you, but it won't help. Some people are so brainwashed by religion that they loose all common sense and even worst, they start attacking people like me who refuse to follow their "sheep way". I guess the lack of arguments leads to personal attacks. I really feel sorry for your kind.

@ wieetsguy
aww man, that quote form the Codex warmed my heart thx http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

@ Cataclypse again
I find Aleister Crowley's utopia quite naive as all utopias are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif "stop being a consumer" ? how ? live in the woods so I won't have to pay rent to the corrupt government ? grow my own food out there ? wear animal fur for clothing ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
have you (or he) tried to stop being a consumer yourself before preaching ? you own a PC manufactured by the same corporations you hate (me too, but at least I don't act all hippie about it), you bought a game called Assassin's Creed built by the same companies you think are trying to manipulate us, you wear shoes built by other corporations that enslave the third world http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif and the examples can go on 'till morning...do you see the hypocrisy ?

Vozlov-3-0
12-01-2009, 04:33 PM
It's funny someone brought up Altairs writings, as i'd love to talk to the guy who wrote them, as a fair bit of the philosophy of how he see's the world is along the lines of how I've been thinking for years, so it's nice to see someone out there thinks on the same wavelength, even if in the end it was created just as a computer character :P

As for the person who said he feels sorry for the Jews and how they've been persecuted, sure I feel sorry for the ones who were persecuted in the past, and I have nothing against the Jews of today who are happy to just get on with their lives and co-exist peacefully.

But some Jews today are really are on a mission to get their own back, which I find sad and most disapointing. It's all happening again, destined to repeat itself until theres nothing left or someone finally stops it.

If you truely stand out from this society and try and move forward without it, there will be alot you leave behind, as you alone can't take it all with you.

Unfortunatley, society carries alot of baggage with it.

Cataclypse
12-02-2009, 01:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
@ Cataclypse
so YHVH offered several other people to accept The Law (Torah), but the Jews were the ones who accepted it ? can you prove that ? I seriously doubt it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure I can, copycat. It's all in scripture. I won't bother to look it up, though. You'll have to do that yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
"stop being a consumer" ? how ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any way you choose.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
have you (or he) tried to stop being a consumer yourself before preaching ? you own a PC manufactured by the same corporations you hate (me too, but at least I don't act all hippie about it), you bought a game called Assassin's Creed built by the same companies you think are trying to manipulate us, you wear shoes built by other corporations that enslave the third world http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif and the examples can go on 'till morning...do you see the hypocrisy ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best to quote this entire piece. Yes, I have consumed quite a great deal in my days, Grafferu. I wouldn't have found out from a first-hand perspective just how evil the corporations are otherwise. With AC2 in my hands, I finally had enough. And I have a plan to do it with. That's pretty important to have _before_ you set out to do something as radical as "living in the woods", which seems to be what you'd prefer. You are welcome to join me if you have the strength to endure. The address is on my website, which is hidden among the many clues in this thread.

Grafferu
12-02-2009, 05:59 AM
@ KexN
I totally agree with you man http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

@ Cataclypse
the scripture ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif and if I'm not jewish and don't believe in the torah ? did anyone else recorded that moment ? I don't think so. I don't remember other nations saying they refused YHVH's law when he offered it to them.
I didn't quite understand what are you trying to tell me on the consumerism thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif your address ? join you ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif what ?

Cataclypse
12-02-2009, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
@ Cataclypse
the scripture ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif and if I'm not jewish and don't believe in the torah ? did anyone else recorded that moment ? I don't think so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly my point right there. If you don't believe in the law being offered to other peoples than the Jews because you don't have any other sources than the scripture, then the whole question of the Jewish people being God's chosen people is also moot, because the only claim to back that up is in the scripture. Other than that, I mean, is word-to-mouth, which anyone can lay claims to.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grafferu:
I didn't quite understand what are you trying to tell me on the consumerism thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif your address ? join you ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif what ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't tell you any details right out since They are listening in everywhere. And I meant join my cause to become free from the corporate society. The clues are in there, man. Somewhere...

NoxieDC
12-02-2009, 12:36 PM
In the end, to this thread: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Cataclypse
12-02-2009, 01:28 PM
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

Grafferu
12-02-2009, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cataclypse:
Exactly my point right there. If you don't believe in the law being offered to other peoples than the Jews because you don't have any other sources than the scripture, then the whole question of the Jewish people being God's chosen people is also moot, because the only claim to back that up is in the scripture. Other than that, I mean, is word-to-mouth, which anyone can lay claims to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
now it's exactly my point http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif jewish scriptures and word to mouth don't appeal to me

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cataclypse:
I can't tell you any details right out since They are listening in everywhere. And I meant join my cause to become free from the corporate society. The clues are in there, man. Somewhere... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ok Jerry Fletcher http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif like I already told you, I find that type of freedom to be very utopian , so no thanx

Ant__.
12-02-2009, 04:33 PM
I can see a padlock coming...

SWJS
12-02-2009, 04:43 PM
And with great haste Jambo.

Me thinks Cataclypse hath been looking into AC's story just a bit too much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I could see this thread going down the toilet once all that religious mumbo jumbo came into conversation.

Grafferu
12-03-2009, 12:57 PM
yeah, religion always messes things up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SWJS
12-03-2009, 01:17 PM
I'm a believer, but I don't go mad with ideas of worship and read the bible 30 times a day. In my opinion, people who over-exaggerate their beliefs, force them on others, and spend every waking moment of their life in worship, are missing out on life, and they can kill the mood and be real party poopers.

That's why this thread fails.

"OMG AC's initials are liek teh same for Anti Christ! Evr1 who plehs it worships teh devilz!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Grafferu
12-04-2009, 10:47 AM
rofl right right http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
you forgot to mention that the ones who created the game also worship the devil http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

moqqy
12-04-2009, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cataclypse:
I find it strange that no one seems to be interested in the - to my mind - obvious Satanic, or at any rate Luciferian tendencies of these two games. First off, how about the game title's initials for an easy giveaway? Assassin's Creed = AC = Anti-Christ.


Then there's the creed of the assassins, which stems from Hassan I Sabbah, the old man of the mountain, where he had his castle Alamut, which in the game instead is called Mazyaf. Hassan was, according to the meager amount of clear evidence there is about this man, at one time a prominent figure in the politics of Persia who, after he was disbarred and exiled, according to what some sources claim, formed one of the most efficient means to control people throughout recorded history, namely, the Hashishims, or Assassins as they later came to be known. He used an ingenious manipulation technique to convert people and to live by the creed of his order, and he used the Assassins to control politics from the shadows. By many he was seen as an "evil" person, much like he is depicted in the first game, but he was most likely a great genius in the tactics of war and politics.

Anyway, his creed was the same as in the game: nothing is true, everything is permissible. The first game initiates the player into the meaning of this creed - at the end Altair realizes that there is an equal amount of responsibility connected to the freedom of knowing the truth.

The real assassins were indoctrinated by coming through a number of circuits, at each one learning a higher truth than in the preceding one, each time learning that what they thought they knew before was a lie and that the version offered in the circuit they were presently in was the truth, until they came to the last circuit where they learned that _nothing_ is true, and therefore everything is permitted; so in a sense, they were set free of any limitations. Or so they thought, because they still had Hassan to thank for this revelation, and they had come to this insight by way of his teachings, so they were still his puppets.

By the way, I believe the Assassins might be the inspiration for modern day suicide bombers, because their technique seems quite similar. The assassins were initiated as mentioned above, and when they got to the last part of the truth, they were "killed", but really they were just put to sleep, then drugged with hash and opium and awoke in a cave with beautiful women, hot springs and all kinds of Heaven-like paraphernalia. Hassan was sitting in front of them and telling them that this was merely a taste of what was to come when they died and went to Heaven. And then they were initiated and sent out to infiltrate political leaders which Hassan wanted to have killed when the time was right. They were so feared because they weren't afraid of death, because naturally they knew that it would be fantastic to die, so they took the cuttings when the guards came with a smile, and thus they seemed unstoppable. (If you think this theory is racist, I think you are ridiculous. It's not, and I'm not. I'm talking about terrorists, not Muslims.)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AC = Anti-Christ? Errr.. that's far fetched. It could just as well secretly mean "Ant Cake".

Now, to correct some false claims in your post:

Hassan was not the old man of the mountain. Sinan was the old man of the mountain. Masyaf was an actual fortress of the assassin's - the headquarters of Sinan, actually. So the game does not claim Masyaf = Alamut.

I do not know where you get your information, but almost all of it is wrong, I'm sorry. There were no such "circuits". The quote "nothing is true, everything is permitted" was NOT in use by the assassins. It's rumored that Hassan uttered the phrase on his death bed.. that is all there is to it.

The assassins themselves, the people who committed the murders, were called fida'i. Evidence suggests they were not trained in combat, except perhaps during a very brief period when Sinan was in control of the Syrian sect..

The part about being "killed" is completely false as well. The assassins were not drugged and they did not wake in any caves (the legend actually says GARDEN, not a cave) with beautiful or ugly women.

The assassins believed they were already in a heaven of sorts.

Anyways, carry on - your misconceptions about the assassins are not the basis of your argument anyways.

Ant__.
12-04-2009, 01:56 PM
moqqy, thanks for clearing up some points.

We're going to park this thread now folks, lest it strays into even further uncharted territory...