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View Full Version : How Do You Navigate Long Distances Over Water/Desert etc ?



ytareh
09-29-2008, 01:20 PM
OK so say you want to fly from carrier a very long distance to another ship how are you meant to get a really accurate heading ?All I can think of apart from placing a protractor up against the minimap on the screen is to print out and enlarge the map and use a big protractor.Even if you are only a degree or two out this is gonna turn into tens of miles on a long route right?

ytareh
09-29-2008, 01:20 PM
OK so say you want to fly from carrier a very long distance to another ship how are you meant to get a really accurate heading ?All I can think of apart from placing a protractor up against the minimap on the screen is to print out and enlarge the map and use a big protractor.Even if you are only a degree or two out this is gonna turn into tens of miles on a long route right?

idonno
09-29-2008, 01:29 PM
A clear plastic protractor works great.

Uufflakke
09-29-2008, 01:34 PM
You don't have to print out and enlarge the map.
Direct your cursor to the minimap and rightclick. You can zoom in about 5 or 6 times. By doing this you will definately find your landing strip.

M_Gunz
09-29-2008, 02:14 PM
If the compass was a clock then every hour is 30 degrees.

ytareh
09-29-2008, 02:30 PM
I dont think some posters understood Im talking about full real (switch) /max difficulty ...if you want to arrive at a point a long , long way away over featureless terrain even if flying straight and level let alone climbing, your heading will have to be exact to the degree but HOW find it best ...Can you get LARGE clear plastic protractors?Other ideas...?Also to find an accurate estimated time of arrival /current location etc while climbing would require serious trigonometry right!!!???(Beyond the scope of a typical sim pilot while holding joystick in one hand?)

thefruitbat
09-29-2008, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
I dont think some posters understood Im talking about full real (switch) /max difficulty ...if you want to arrive at a point a long , long way away over featureless terrain even if flying straight and level let alone climbing, your heading will have to be exact to the degree but HOW find it best ...Can you get LARGE clear plastic protractors?Other ideas...?Also to find an accurate estimated time of arrival /current location etc while climbing would require serious trigonometry right!!!???(Beyond the scope of a typical sim pilot while holding joystick in one hand?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is a utility out there somewhere, that will transrcibe your flight waypoints into times and distances and speeds, from the mis.file, saves you doing the maths if you can't/can't be ****d, basically giving you a proper flight plan.

fruitbat

Buzzsaw-
09-29-2008, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by idonno:
A clear plastic protractor works great. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RAF74 flew a campaign based on the Convoy relief mission of Malta, OPERATION PEDESTAL. We fly full real, no map icons or externals, so in this case navigation was a definite challenge, since much of the flying was long distances over water. Both sides were attacking each other's naval Task Forces and Convoys.

What it took was very careful planning on the part of the commanders, and the use of a plastic protractor. (for me at least)

Sometimes the missions required a mission force to fly as much as 90 kilometers over open water using compass reckoning, and stopwatches for timing course changes, then to attack a shipping target, and then return to base. This versus moving ships, since the campaign used the SCORCHED EARTH Coop campaign engine, where movements follow on from turn to turn. And often the routes to the target were not direct, to avoid or fool the Fleet Air Arm, Luftwaffe or Regia Aeronautica CAP, routes were setup so attackers came in from unexpected directions.

It says something for the professionalism of the various Squadrons involved, RAF74, II/JG1 and WingWalkers, that we were able follow the routes, and to hit our targets nearly everytime.

Some might call it boring having to fly these long routes, but the tension of searching for the opponent who you are hoping might be there, (because the SCORCHED EARTH system uses limited intelligence), and then the excitement as you catch a glimpse of the wakes of ships underneath the clouds, and the flak and enemy fighters bore in, as well as the struggle of nursing an aircraft with a smoking engine, while you try to calculate whether you have the right heading to get home, (especially when you are returning to a Carrier which has since moved) really gives you the kind of immersion you don't get in less realistic campaigns.

The SCORCHED EARTH program also allows you to program Task Force movement, so all ships in a TF stay in formation, which allows for ZigZagging, so the realism is increased when you see the ships you have just lined up broadside to do a torpedo attack, start a zigzag to 90 degrees off, which then throws your attack completely off.

Definitely a challenge. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I will eventually be releasing the actual campaign missions redone as single player campaigns for a Fleet Air Arm, Spitfire, Ju-88, 109 and 110.

M_Gunz
09-29-2008, 04:23 PM
Serious trig... no. Just the regular similar triangles at the most, trig for machinists and navigators.
Not the proofs and analytic geometry, pre-calculus trig.

IRL you have wind drift as well as heading and speed. I don't think that we have what we'd
need to gage that and I'm not totally sure that IL2 wind goes that far.

Headings *should* be part of the mission briefing as well as time at speed to arrive.

You can figure out the time using FMB waypoints, fly the heading and speed for the time required
and if you arrive off target then spiral search from alt.

1 degree off per 100 km distance gets 1.75 km off target. 5 degrees puts you 8.73 km off.
Not a huge search IRL but IL2 object distance is less than real.

Mercwolf2
09-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Hi

First off, normally when you fly from ship to ship your ground crew has put waypoints into your plane. You can use the ADF that is fixed on some planes. The Germans and the Americans had them but I am not sure about the Japanese. RAF did not have it in their planes. Again the protractor works to give you a direction and if you calculate the distance and speed you can use a stop watch to calculate approxiametly the time needed to reach your destination.

WTE_Galway
09-29-2008, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
I dont think some posters understood Im talking about full real (switch) /max difficulty ...if you want to arrive at a point a long , long way away over featureless terrain even if flying straight and level let alone climbing, your heading will have to be exact to the degree but HOW find it best ...Can you get LARGE clear plastic protractors?Other ideas...?Also to find an accurate estimated time of arrival /current location etc while climbing would require serious trigonometry right!!!???(Beyond the scope of a typical sim pilot while holding joystick in one hand?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You basically need to know your ground speed and from their ETA and distance are easy.

Simplest way however is to standardise. Work it out beforehand. For example if in practice you find 70% throttle and 250 kmh means that in xx minutes you climb 2000 m and cover 10 km ground distance use the same settings in a mission.

crucislancer
09-29-2008, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
I dont think some posters understood Im talking about full real (switch) /max difficulty ...if you want to arrive at a point a long , long way away over featureless terrain even if flying straight and level let alone climbing, your heading will have to be exact to the degree but HOW find it best ...Can you get LARGE clear plastic protractors?Other ideas...?Also to find an accurate estimated time of arrival /current location etc while climbing would require serious trigonometry right!!!???(Beyond the scope of a typical sim pilot while holding joystick in one hand?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is a utility out there somewhere, that will transrcibe your flight waypoints into times and distances and speeds, from the mis.file, saves you doing the maths if you can't/can't be ****d, basically giving you a proper flight plan.

fruitbat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NavPlan (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3188)

Great program, IMHO. Simple and easy to use.

M2morris
09-29-2008, 11:42 PM
Sort-of OT from thread:
One thing I loved about MSFS; I could use a real-world sectional map and navigate to anywhere within that map and the field would be there. I would fly instruments with low vis with NDBs and VOR to use and it really worked.

However for IL2 I would love to have paper maps to navigate with.
As far as navigating over vast strecthes of water I would say a good map-recon would be in order before take off. You need to determine your azimuths and write them down and dead-reacon. They include azimuths to waypoints and target, and what I call my: go-to-sh-t azimuth; Thats the direction back to the carrier in-case you are disabled or mission completed after the confusion of battle and that is the direction the ship should be.


I would like paper-map/protractor navigation for IL2. That would be cool.
Speed, time, direction.

M_Gunz
09-30-2008, 05:35 AM
Perhaps the 3rd party DCG makers could be persuaded to have their generators add navigation
instructions just for those who fly full switch?

Morris.. how can you have a single direction back in case of engine trouble, etc, when the
carrier is moving let alone from along the 2nd or later leg of a mission path?
The GTS-azimuth to a moving carrier would be time-dependent.

Bearcat99
09-30-2008, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
Sort-of OT from thread:
One thing I loved about MSFS; I could use a real-world sectional map and navigate to anywhere within that map and the field would be there. I would fly instruments with low vis with NDBs and VOR to use and it really worked.

However for IL2 I would love to have paper maps to navigate with.
As far as navigating over vast strecthes of water I would say a good map-recon would be in order before take off. You need to determine your azimuths and write them down and dead-reacon. They include azimuths to waypoints and target, and what I call my: go-to-sh-t azimuth; Thats the direction back to the carrier in-case you are disabled or mission completed after the confusion of battle and that is the direction the ship should be.


I would like paper-map/protractor navigation for IL2. That would be cool.
Speed, time, direction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are printed maps @ M4T..

OMK_Hand
09-30-2008, 10:22 AM
Most of the squares on game maps are 10k across when zoomed-in.
The diagonal of a 10k square is 14.4k. (I think.)

The table below is totally confusing because the formatting won't transfer to the forum.
However, down the left–hand side of the table are altitudes, starting at sea level up to 3000m.

Next to each altitude there are three pairs of numbers, each pair bracketed by a colon ˜:'
The first number in each pair relates to 10k ( straight across a map square), the second in each pair relates to 14.4k (diagonally across a map square).

The first pair relate to an indicated airspeed of 300 kph. The second pair to 400 kph, and the third to 500 kph.

To use the table, choose an indicated airspeed, 300, 400, or 500 kph ( first, second or third pair) then an altitude, and the numbers where they meet in the middle are the time it will take to travel either 10k (first number) or 14.4k (second number).

Example: Travelling at 400kph indicated airspeed (middle pair), 1,500m altitude, I'll travel the diagonal of a map square in 2 minutes flat (second number).

Clear as mud!

Hope this is of use.

s.l.___ : 1.59 2.52 : 1.30 2.09 : 1.12 1.43
500m_ : 1.57 2.49 : 1.28 2.07 : 1.12 1.43
1000m : 1.53 2.43 : 1.24 2.02 : 1.10 1.41
1500m : 1.51 2.40 : 1.23 2.00 : 1.10 1.41
2000m : 1.47 2.34 : 1.20 1.55 : 1.09 1.39
2500m : 1.43 2.28 : 1.17 1.51 : 1.09 1.39
3000m : 1.41 2.26 : 1.16 1.49 : 1.07 1.37

M2morris
09-30-2008, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Morris.. how can you have a single direction back in case of engine trouble, etc, when the
carrier is moving let alone from along the 2nd or later leg of a mission path?
The GTS-azimuth to a moving carrier would be time-dependent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your right. Note the word "should"
I geuss it would be better to call it a GTS general direction and not an azimuth. Just last night I was torn up by AA fire and I limped back to the carrier knowing that it must be SW of me. I finally wimped out and called for directions

M2morris
09-30-2008, 03:01 PM
Thanks Bearcat,

I downloaded: 369_navmaps2

It looks okay. I will try some IL2 paper map navigation now.
The maps are mostly very zoomed-out, but they look good.


Maybe I should just order real-world maps of these areas and make a map book. The major terrain features would be the same as 60 somthin years ago.

fabianfred
09-30-2008, 03:58 PM
make your own maps with the Printscreen button and Paint program

M2morris
09-30-2008, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
make your own maps with the Printscreen button and Paint program </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait, that sounds too easy.

Can't do it.
Just kidding.

I will try that.
GAAAWD!