PDA

View Full Version : China



Daisuke4444
08-27-2005, 01:32 AM
Wouldn't it be great to have a china map??
The Japanese conquest in asia began way before pearl harbor.
The Japanese could have a very beautiful and variety filled campaign.Too bad Oleg didn't take the Japanese campaign very much into consideration.

Daisuke4444
08-27-2005, 01:32 AM
Wouldn't it be great to have a china map??
The Japanese conquest in asia began way before pearl harbor.
The Japanese could have a very beautiful and variety filled campaign.Too bad Oleg didn't take the Japanese campaign very much into consideration.

Daiichidoku
08-27-2005, 02:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Bartolomeo_ita
08-27-2005, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ouldn't it be great to have a china map??
The Japanese conquest in asia began way before pearl harbor.
The Japanese could have a very beautiful and variety filled campaign.Too bad Oleg didn't take the Japanese campaign very much into consideration.

Posts: 11 | Registered: Mon August 22 2005 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ohhh, should be great fly in Brazil. Yep oleg, gimme map of it :|

Chuck_Older
08-27-2005, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bartolomeo_ita:

ohhh, should be great fly in Brazil. Yep oleg, gimme map of it :| </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Nothing ever happened in Brazil. In China, however, the Japanese started an air campaign long before the Germans began their military actions in Europe. Many Historians consider China's invasion by the Japanese to be the actual start of WWII

Your impression of the Second World War is that there was action in Europe and in the Pacific Ocean. If you'd care to investigate how important China was to all sides in WWII, and what happened in the skies over China, you'd be surprised

Just because you don't know about China's role in WWII, and don't know what happened there, that doesn't mean it's as irrelevant as Brazil

I suggest you research the subject a little before you continue to assume China is a place with as much relevance to the air war in WWII as Brazilhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ljazz
08-27-2005, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bartolomeo_ita:

ohhh, should be great fly in Brazil. Yep oleg, gimme map of it :| </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Nothing ever happened in Brazil. In China, however, the Japanese started an air campaign long before the Germans began their military actions in Europe. Many Historians consider China's invasion by the Japanese to be the actual start of WWII

Your impression of the Second World War is that there was action in Europe and in the Pacific Ocean. If you'd care to investigate how important China was to all sides in WWII, and what happened in the skies over China, you'd be surprised

Just because you don't know about China's role in WWII, and don't know what happened there, that doesn't mean it's as irrelevant as Brazil

I suggest you research the subject a little before you continue to assume China is a place with as much relevance to the air war in WWII as Brazilhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dang, you're cold!

I didn't take it that way at all..... It looks to me like he's in Brazil, and would like to have China in the game.

ljazz

Bartolomeo_ita
08-27-2005, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bartolomeo_ita:

ohhh, should be great fly in Brazil. Yep oleg, gimme map of it :| </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Nothing ever happened in Brazil. In China, however, the Japanese started an air campaign long before the Germans began their military actions in Europe. Many Historians consider China's invasion by the Japanese to be the actual start of WWII

Your impression of the Second World War is that there was action in Europe and in the Pacific Ocean. If you'd care to investigate how important China was to all sides in WWII, and what happened in the skies over China, you'd be surprised

Just because you don't know about China's role in WWII, and don't know what happened there, that doesn't mean it's as irrelevant as Brazil

I suggest you research the subject a little before you continue to assume China is a place with as much relevance to the air war in WWII as Brazilhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

omg ... i was kidding ... i knew that nothing ever happened there ... SO ... i said it :|

no humor http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ciao http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFMondo
08-27-2005, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bartolomeo_ita:

ohhh, should be great fly in Brazil. Yep oleg, gimme map of it :| </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Nothing ever happened in Brazil. In China, however, the Japanese started an air campaign long before the Germans began their military actions in Europe. Many Historians consider China's invasion by the Japanese to be the actual start of WWII </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

why not have a spanish map as well. although i don't know if any of the planes in the current plane list actually flew in spain.

Monson74
08-27-2005, 10:37 AM
Bump for a China/Burma map http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ElAurens
08-27-2005, 10:57 AM
Bump for China!

And see my related post about the Ki 27

HERE (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7451069053)

Kuna15
08-27-2005, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Tater-SW-
08-27-2005, 12:40 PM
Bump for a china/burma/india map (the very North part of Burma could get all three in 1 map).

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/CBI.jpg
Those are NG sized maps as rectangles.

I'd also like to see the Nationalist Chinese as a selectable blue country. Oleg made some statement that suggested there was a problem with that do to the PRC, maybe. Dunno why you couldn't add 2 red countries, Maoists and Nationalists. Of course they also fought each other.

tater

Chuck_Older
08-27-2005, 01:38 PM
ljazz-
I'm not being cold. I could have said "Read a book u n00b", right? He doesn't live in Brazil, he's in Italy, by the way. A lot of folks ignore the importance of China. Just a fact.

Tater-
No Rangoon??!?!?!?!

El-
I'm on that thread like flies on a dead dog!

Bartolomeo-
Didn't seem like much of a joke to me

Tater-SW-
08-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Rangoon is an awful choice if we could have just one CBI map. It would be like so many of the other maps choices they made. Everyone knows it was a place of combat, but they forget how few days or weeks there was actually combat there. The northern part of Burma went back and forth many many months. It would actually allow back and forth combat with bases for both sides.

Rangoon would be good from Dec '41 to March 8. 3 months, then it's useless.

Honestly, all the major PF maps seem to have purposely selected for thye least possible amount of historical gameplay. NG map? What, summer '42 to jan '43. 6-8 months, not bad. Course the Kokoda Trail/Track is really a superhighway in PF, instead of a footpath. A 6-8 month period Lae and West would have been vastly more interesting. Hawaii, 1 day, many atoll maps, a handful of days combat each.

PF has 4 large maps (only 3 with lots of land). Kyushu, NG, Singapore, and Hawaii (smallish land area). It would have been less work (less land area) to make the 3 big maps be: The Slot (replacing Hawaii), Northern Burma, Lae and west in NG, and maybe part of the Philipines. Those 4 maps would have been good for more, and more interesting combat.

tater

tater

LEXX_Luthor
08-27-2005, 05:35 PM
444:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wouldn't it be great to have a china map?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah that would be "great" but a Map of China would be Awsum. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Russian CD will have Mongolia map -- for 1939 or 1945 use I don't know. We really don't have any planes for 1939, although there may be a Ki-27 coming on Russian CD, although we don't know if that will be Flyable or AI Only.

p1ngu666
08-27-2005, 06:30 PM
the area of operations was huge, 3x the size of england, or bigger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JunkoIfurita
08-27-2005, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Russian CD will have Mongolia map -- for 1939 or 1945 use I don't know. We really don't have any planes for 1939, although there may be a Ki-27 coming on Russian CD, although we don't know if that will be Flyable or AI Only. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that the Ki-27 is included in the Russian add-on, I'm leaning towards 1939, myself. The Chaika and the Rata were the two Russian fighters over Mongolia against the Nate, after all. (granted the I-16 was a type 11 at that point, though).

----

LEXX_Luthor
08-27-2005, 09:18 PM
Junko:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(granted the I-16 was a type 11 at that point, though) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Type 10?

Who knows, they might Patch the -18 down to fit. As a side benefit, this would make the blue side Happy.

Daisuke4444
08-28-2005, 01:16 AM
It is a fact that Japan had a longer war than Germany. 1937-1945.
And surrendered later than Germany.
The bad choices of maps and campaigns make the Japanese war seem undynamic and less significant.
For example IJA campaign.1943-Tarawa.Two days of fighting and that's the only scenario in 1943.
The IJN doesn't even have a 1943.
I personally think that Pacific Fighters wasn't brought up to it's true potential.
FB seems to have gotten more attention in variety and detail.Maybe it would have been a good Idea to keep it in the works a bit longer.
The Singapore campaign is the worst one.It really didn't need to be added.
CAP.all the time.The war in the pacific was a very hard and bloody one.It's a shame that so little attention is always put to it.

ElAurens
08-28-2005, 07:58 AM
The early airwar in China is fascinating in terms of aircraft used.

So many obscure types used by both sides.

The Chinese with Heinkle bombers and the IJAAF with FIAT bombers for instance. Claudes and Nates, Curtiss Hawks from biplane to P40, and the CW 21. Glosters and Polikarpovs. The mind boggles at the variety.

DuxCorvan
08-28-2005, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
why not have a spanish map as well. although i don't know if any of the planes in the current plane list actually flew in spain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, yes. I'm begging for a SCW air sim since I was in my mother's womb.

And no, no types in the Il-2 series actually fought in Spain. There were many many types, but the main needed ones were:

Republican:
- Hispano-Nieuport Nie.62 (early times)
- Breguet Br.XIX (early times)
- Polikarpov I-15 "Chato"
- Polikarpov I-152 "Superchato"
- Polikarpov I-16 (Types 5 to 10, and mod. versions) "Mosca"
- Polikarpov I-5 "Rasante"
- Hawker Spanish Fury
- Loire 46
- Tupolev SB-2 (early types) "Katiuska"
- Potez 540
- Grumman G.23 (No naval version of FF-1) "Delf*n"

Nationalist:
- Hispano-Nieuport Nie.62 (early times)
- Breguet Br.XIX (early times)
- Heinkel He 51 (B and C)
- Junkers Ju 52/3m
- Fiat CR.32 (and CR.32 bis) "Chirri"

--Legion Kondor stuff--

- Henschel Hs 123A "Angelito"
- Heinkel He 111B "Pedro"
- Dornier Do 17E "Bacalao"
- Heinkel He 112B
- Messerschmitt Bf 109 (B, C, D and E-1)
- Junkers Ju 87 (prototypes and B)

These are only the main types. Many aircraft were used in small numbers by both sides, and range all the evolution from WW1 late stuff (Avro 504K) to early WW2 technology (Emils and Stukas).

As varied and interesting as China -if not more.

Destroyer110
09-01-2005, 06:11 AM
The big advantage of a China map is that there are alot of new middle class chinese out there with cash to spend ... surely they'd be a plethora of teenage armchair fly-boy nerds who's love to relive the airwar over China .. ??? yes?? P-40s v Nates

Macwan
09-01-2005, 09:11 AM
a chinese map ?

Chinese mapS !!!

Yes, that would be great !

But the main problem is about insignias, which are now Taiwan insignias.
There are too many problems between PR of China and Taiwan governement... (even if people are all "chinese")

So the only way to have chinese maps and campaigns is for 1C or Ubi (or both) to ask PR of China and Taiwan authorizations! (quite impossible)
Trying to diffuse a game (even a free add-on) about this war without any permission would be...stupidly suicide.

But if nobody doesn't ask, we wil never know...

That's just my opinion, of course.

Feathered_IV
09-01-2005, 09:49 PM
A khalkhin-Gol map would be sweet.

Bump

Destroyer110
09-02-2005, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Macwan:
a chinese map ?

Chinese mapS !!!

Yes, that would be great !

But the main problem is about insignias, which are now Taiwan insignias.
There are too many problems between PR of China and Taiwan governement... (even if people are all "chinese")

So the only way to have chinese maps and campaigns is for 1C or Ubi (or both) to ask PR of China and Taiwan authorizations! (quite impossible)
Trying to diffuse a game (even a free add-on) about this war without any permission would be...stupidly suicide.

But if nobody doesn't ask, we wil never know...

That's just my opinion, of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


OUCH!!! I never thought of that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Don't want PF causing unrest or an invasion of Taiwan ... but it would make a great sim, in about 10 years time.

woofiedog
09-02-2005, 02:03 PM
SCW with Map and China & Burma Maps... where is my Master Charge! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Chuck_Older
09-03-2005, 01:59 PM
Why are insignias an issue, exactly?

Finnish and German insignia have been altered in this sim, and we already have an H81A-2 with National Chinese markings. A blue circle with a white diamond in the center could be substituted, and then with custom skins or MAT manager we could have correct markings

Maps can be made with names that are either missing or altered.

ElAurens
09-03-2005, 04:51 PM
Politically correct madness.

Put the bloody proper markings on the aircraft.

When the current Communist Chinese government had a touring display about the efforts of the US and, Flying Tigers in particular, to help China defeat the Japanese they had no problem putting images of the aircraft markings in that display. I saw it a the National Museum Of The United States Air Force a year or so ago.

Gents, this is a non-issue. Lets not give any undue importance to it.

SaQSoN
09-03-2005, 06:13 PM
I don't think, there is any problems with Chinese markings, be it nationalist or Comunist ones, unless you are not going to publish the game in China itself.
As far as I remeber, Oleg wrote recently on this forum, that they had to remove ALL axis markings (not just swastika) from the game in order to get it published in China.
As for the maps, there hardly is any leagal problems with it as well. The problem is rather in the lack of historical topographic references for the said areas.

Does anyone have 1:25000 topogrphic military map, issued in between 1939-45, covering all the south and western Chinese terriotries, where FT fought? Anyone? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tater-SW-
09-03-2005, 09:54 PM
saqson,

I thought the oleg response was to a question asked about adding China as a nationality choice in the pull downs (like Germany, Finland, US, UK, etc). That way we could have play where some planes are RAF and some are Nationalist Chinese without having to use US markings on a Gladiator or something.

Maps while also cool, are a different matter. Why would they need such a large map, none of the current maps are even a fraction the size of all of southern China, and in terms of accuracy, well, I won't even go there other than to say you could hand-sketch some PF maps and do a more accurate job. I doubt the huge, flat coastal plains around virtually all islands in PF are found on the real maps (many of the real maps of the period were horribly inaccurate, BTW, so if you were to base a PF map on a military map from the period, it is more likely than not wrong).

tater

SaQSoN
09-04-2005, 09:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I thought the oleg response was to a question asked about adding China as a nationality choice </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but this is connected to the insignia isn't it?
Besides, the problem is rather in absance of time to do such change, since it would require creating of appropriate insignia textures and some changes to the code.

As for the maps, frankly, I was joking about the 1:25000 map http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, though it would be certainly prefferable, particulary for the river/water outlines, that could change since then.
And again, the reason for not adding anything not only the cetain maps is that the FB/PF life have come to an end and they just will not spare a time for adding anything big and labour intesieve to the game. Their financial and labour resources are limited, obviously, and are mostly diverted to the production of the BoB.

The only hope in this case are the 3rd party teams, which Oleg mentioned. But again, thier resources are limited as well.

ElAurens
09-04-2005, 11:23 AM
I'll do some poking around to see about maps, but who can model them since Oleg's crew no longer have time?

Also, The New Zealand markings are a better choice than US to simulate Nationalist Chinese markings.

Macwan
09-05-2005, 03:35 AM
OK guys,

I'll be more precise...

I'm just talking about a game which could be diffused in China. You have the right to do what you want in the European or American market... but then you should forget a chinese expansion for your company... (neither chinese customers nor chinese politics are ignorant and stupid !)

So, when I am talking about Taiwan insignia, I was just talking about the most evident example...
There is another problem, that would need a reflexion...
The war in China is against Japan... and nowadays, people in China, in Japan, are more and more angry about this subject...
You will learn more about this by reading your daily newspaper...(for those ones who wouldn't know, of course)

So, about computer games, people say it's pleasure and freedom and other people say it has an impact in players'behaviour... (not absolutly my opinion, but these theories exist in America, in Europe...and in China !)
So, the main question is about the morality of a game where there are many references to the Chinese Nationalist Party and where you fight against your Japanese neighbour (increasing nationalist behaviours ?).

Well, of course, you could say that everything is history and that it would be a shame to forbid history.
Yes, it's true, but we have got the same problems in our contries : "what is forbidden and what should be forbibben ? " .
No Svastikas but Fascios : that's an example of our problems...

Never forget that history, "pure" history, cannot be easily understood...
Nazi websites are the most evident prooth...

cheers,

Macwan.

Chuck_Older
09-05-2005, 07:30 AM
Macwan-

I really just don't understand. When you say "diffused"...it confuses me. "Diffused" means to disarm a situation, or more commonly, a bomb of some type. As in, "the military bomb disposal unit diffused the timebomb" or "The situation was luckily diffused when help arrived". It can also mean the softening of a light source to produce less glare or harsh light

Do you mean "distributed" by any chance? I just don't know what you're trying to say

Macwan
09-05-2005, 07:42 AM
Ooops, sorry Chuck_Older !

Yes, I just meant "distributed"...

Well, I should improve my "english skills" a little more...

(really sorry)

See you later,

Macwan.

Chuck_Older
09-05-2005, 07:57 AM
No harm done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I just wanted to make sure I understood you. Your English is much better than my French. J'oublie toute les mots!

Luftwaffe_109
09-07-2005, 12:52 AM
Definitely would love to see maps of China/Mongolia/Burma/India. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I would also like to see included markings for the Japanese puppet airforces of Manchukuo and Nanking China.

This website has some very brief information on Nanking China.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/Nanking_China.html

Macwan
09-07-2005, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
Definitely would love to see maps of China/Mongolia/Burma/India. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I would also like to see included markings for the Japanese puppet airforces of Manchukuo and Nanking China.

This website has some very brief information on Nanking China.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~alevrass/Nanking_China.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting...
Nevertheles, I am not sure that it would be a good idea for an official game add-on/patch, at least due to what Japanese Army did in Nankin.

Then we could ask Oleg to include Vlassov Army... and later some "special" german buildings...
(Not for me, please)

War diseases are still alive between Japan and China...

That's just my opinion, of course, but you don't consider that a war is "past" when you have been invaded, fought in your homeland, lost thousends soldiers and citizens and when your defeated enemy still insists that he was right, even 60 years after the end of this war...
Not only an historical question...

Macwan.

Luftwaffe_109
09-07-2005, 05:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Nevertheles, I am not sure that it would be a good idea for an official game add-on/patch, at least due to what Japanese Army did in Nankin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To be honest I don't see the connection between flying in a sim campaign for a puppet state and the Rape of Nanking. Completely different propositions. A Nanking China campaign is no more morally wrong than any other campaign we already have in this game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then we could ask Oleg to include Vlassov Army </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well the Vlassov army didn't have aircraft. We have campaigns like the Poles flying for the Soviet Union, so why shouldn't we have one of say the Manchukuoan airforce or the Reformed Government airforce?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and later some "special" german buildings...
(Not for me, please) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What relevance has a Nanking China campaign to German concentration camps?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's just my opinion, of course, but you don't consider that a war is "past" when you have been invaded, fought in your homeland, lost thousends soldiers and citizens and when your defeated enemy still insists that he was right, even 60 years after the end of this war... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Japan does not still insist it was right.

In my opinion politics should absolutely be left well out of this sim.

Macwan
09-07-2005, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Nevertheles, I am not sure that it would be a good idea for an official game add-on/patch, at least due to what Japanese Army did in Nankin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To be honest I don't see the connection between flying in a sim campaign for a puppet state and the Rape of Nanking. Completely different propositions. A Nanking China campaign is no more morally wrong than any other campaign we already have in this game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then we could ask Oleg to include Vlassov Army </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well the Vlassov army didn't have aircraft. We have campaigns like the Poles flying for the Soviet Union, so why shouldn't we have one of say the Manchukuoan airforce or the Nanking China airforce?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That's just my opinion, of course, but you don't consider that a war is "past" when you have been invaded, fought in your homeland, lost thousends soldiers and citizens and when your defeated enemy still insists that he was right, even 60 years after the end of this war... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Japan does not still insist it was right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Maybe you won't see any connection between these facts, but PR Chinese people would.

2. "Vlassov Army had no planes", I am not sure about that.

3. Maybe Japan does not insist with America, but it does with China. I am sorry, but you should read different newspapers from different countries and you would know what I mean.

I don't want to accuse you, but you are very sure of things which are not "sure".

Regards,

Macwan.

SaQSoN
09-07-2005, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2. "Vlassov Army had no planes", I am not sure about that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It had. They flew Fw-190F from Praha in 1945. Also the Me-262 unit was assembled and supposedly trained by this time.

Luftwaffe_109
09-07-2005, 08:49 PM
Hello guys.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Macwan:
3. Maybe Japan does not insist with America, but it does with China. I am sorry, but you should read different newspapers from different countries and you would know what I mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is just plainly false, and no amount of insultingly condescending language from you can change this fact. Japan does not €œinsist it was right€.

-€˜Addressing delegates, Mr Koizumi said: "In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations.

"Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility."€

-€˜Since 1992 Japanese prime ministers have all made formal apologies for the war.€

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4471495.stm

Now, I must ask, do you bother to read the newspapers?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Maybe you won't see any connection between these facts, but PR Chinese people would. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And what are these connections that Chinese citizens of the People€s Republic of China see and I can't?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Then we could ask Oleg to include Vlassov Army </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don€t see why not, it would probably be quite interesting.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by SaQSoN:
It had. They flew Fw-190F from Praha in 1945. Also the Me-262 unit was assembled and supposedly trained by this time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you are right, the ROA did, indeed, have aircraft. I was mistaken.

However, I don€t think the ROA Airforce flew Fw-190s. Perhaps those Fw-190Fs you mention are those that bombed Prague on May 8th, 1945, and belonged to SG 77?

As for Me-262 squadron you mention, according to Die Geschichte der Wlassow-Armee, Joachim Hoffmann, there was only one Me-262 which was part of the equipment of 3. Recce Escadrille, under Artemejev (around Februrary 1945). It's fate is unknown.

At the time, the entire €œRussian Liberation Army€ airforce was located at Cheb airfield in West Bohemia, and by the time of its transfer to N"meck Brod consisted of 2 Bu-181s, 4 Ar-96Bs, and several Bf-109s. It was under the command of Malcev.

This is all very interesting to me, if you have further information about this or can recommend some books I would be very grateful.


Best Regards

Werg78
09-07-2005, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
was a problem with that do to the PRC
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HOI 1/2 are banned in china due to tibet being a playable country. who knows if they'd do the same to FB for a nationalist china campaign and no communist one (did they have an airforce?).

Macwan
09-08-2005, 03:25 AM
Hi,

-Luftwaffe_109

I apologize if you have felt I was insulting and condescendant with you. Certainly I need to improve my English skills to be better understood...

About Japan :

you show me an article that was written on april, 22, 2005 (!).
It's not because Mr Koizumi made an official "relationship apologize" (not really what is asked by foreign countries, especially China) that his policy is going the same way...

It's easy to venerate war crimininals to be loved by 50 % of your population and, under economic and international pressure, say "Oops, no, we apologize with humility".
And, please, do not tell me that things have changed since last april about the "good behaviour" of japanese governement and its fans.
Every year, since decades, education programs in Japan change History (abour WW2).
No big changes, just some small parts...quite every year...
But lots of responses against the "official communication" of japanese government are in your article...

About Nankin...

Do you know that Communist Party leads PR China ?
Do you know that during WW2 Nationalist and Communist Party were together against Japan and their ALLIES ?
So why don't you understand that, for Chinese people, there is a relationship between what happend in Nankin and the decision of some Warlords to create a indepandant state in Nankin to fight WITH the Japanese ?
I never have meant that this Puppet State would have had any responbility in Nankin massacre (how could it be ?).
I juste mean that, for chinese people, they are traitors, all the more unforgivable than they knew what Japanese did in China (therefor the Vlassov Army comparison).

I have never told that you shoudn't talk about this subject. I just say that, for a game, it refers to a period which troubles still exist.

And I insist that it would be more than useless, stupid, to produce and distribute a chinese add-on/campaign, even in America/Europe, WITHOUT chinese authorizations.

Regards,

Macwan.

Luftwaffe_109
09-08-2005, 04:24 AM
Hello Macwan.

Sorry that I accused you of insulting me. I too quickly took your implication that I do not read newspapers as a condescending remark.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> you show me an article that was written on april, 22, 2005 (!).
It's not because Mr Koizumi made an official "relationship apologize" (not really what is asked by foreign countries, especially China) that his policy is going the same way... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Firstly, this is certainly not the first apology that Japan has made to China for her conduct during the war. As I wrote, since 1992 Japanese prime ministers have all made formal apologies for the war. In total 17 official apologies have been made by Japan to China over the last 30 years, including one from the Japanese emperor when he visited Beijing.

Surely then it is simply inaccurate to accuse Japan of €œinsisting she was right€. She has done nothing of the sort.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It's easy to venerate war crimininals to be loved by 50 % of your population and, under economic and international pressure, say "Oops, no, we apologize with humility". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don€t think its accurate to claim the Japanese government venerates war criminals or that half its population does. I think this is quite false, especially the second proposition. The extreme nationalist element in Japan is nowhere near that large.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And, please, do not tell me that things have changed since last april about the "good behaviour" of japanese governement and its fans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don€t really understand this question. You said Japan was unrepentant. I€ve shown this is untrue, they have apologised.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Every year, since decades, education programs in Japan change History (abour WW2).
No big changes, just some small parts...quite every year... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
About the textbook in question, Tokyo has said private companies, not the government, were responsible for the texts, and that it is up to individual school districts to decide which books they use. Only about 18 schools will be using the textbooks which have provoked outrage. That is less than 0.1% of all Japanese schools.

Let me point out I am not saying that Japan has done everything it could do to recognize her past. But that is far different from saying they are completely unrepentant about their past.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> About Nankin...

Do you know that Communist Party leads PR China ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is what I mean by condescending posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Do you know that during WW2 Nationalist and Communist Party were together against Japan and their ALLIES ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Generally yes, although these two groups did occasionally engage in hostilities with each other.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So why don't you understand that, for Chinese people, there is a relationship between what happend in Nankin and the decision of some Warlords to create a indepandant state in Nankin to fight WITH the Japanese ?
I never have meant that this Puppet State would have had any responbility in Nankin massacre (how could it be ?).
I juste mean that, for chinese people, they are traitors, all the more unforgivable than they knew what Japanese did in China (therefor the Vlassov Army comparison). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see. So you do agree that there is no real relationship between the Rape of Nanking and a hypothetical campaign where you fly for Nanking China. That Wang Jingwei€s Reformed Government betrayed China is a different issue entirely.

Still, I see no reason why this should preclude there being included in a historical campaign a Manchukuoan or Nanking airforce. The fact is that many Chinese fought for the Japanese as puppet troops or auxiliaries, and many fought against them either under Chiang-Kai Sheks government or with the Communists and many fought with the many warlords that were allied with either of these groups.

I don€t see why we can€t have campaigns of all of these groups where it would be historically accurate. It adds realism.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just say that, for a game, it refers to a period which troubles still exist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can agree with this, but then troubles still exist also for all aspects of this very terrible war.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And I insist that it would be more than useless, stupid, to produce and distribute a chinese add-on/campaign, even in America/Europe, WITHOUT chinese authorizations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not?

You would just not sell to China. I€m not even sure that China represents that big of a market share for Oleg€s sim anyway. Surely more than made up by a Chinese campaign that the rest of us would enjoy.


Best Regards

Macwan
09-08-2005, 06:08 AM
Sorry Luftwaffe_109,

But I disagree with you.

1.When Prime Minister Koizumi goes every year celebrate the memory of a graded soldier, who was also a war criminal, that's "institutionnal provocation".

And if read japanese apologises with attention, you will find that they only say "what we did".
For Japan, it means war and citizens death due to war.
For China, Korea and many others, it should mean war crimes : organised massacres, medical tests, "special" prisonner camps...
(One of the most common argue about Nankin massacre in Japan is : "it's normal, it was not controlled but some isolated soldiers' fact, it'war")

2.When some of the most sold mangas are about critics against chinese and korean people, whose culture(s) diferrencies is a good argue to invade, and when these mangas explain how courageous and glorious were the japanese soldiers in China and Korea, everything authorized, that's revisionism for the masses.

3.About education, I wasn't especially refering to the "school book". This is just one more step.
Nevertheless, the argue of the small distribution of this "book" (an argue which is not really yours but Japan's), this the poorest answer that could have been found.
There are also private scools and school books editors in France. Even if there are racism problems in France, I have never heard about any authorization of such "books".
Institutions are totally responsible.

If you think that few people in Japan are revisionism victims, you should have a glance at the newest polls about it (I don't manage to find them now). Maybe I have exagerated a bit the percents, but you can believe me that it is highier than in Germany for instance.
And the problem is that these "victims" are more and more young people. So, who is responsible about that ?
As you know, memory and repuntance is not only a sentence or a meeting with your neighbour.

Idon't want to accuse Japanese people ! They have two harms, two legs and ond head, like us !
And certainly I could find a good friend in Japan...
But the way Japan is lead is still very dangerous for Asia, especially since the great rise of China, a country which has not forgotten.

Maybe you understand my point of view, don'you ?

Luftwaffe_109
09-08-2005, 06:58 AM
Hello Macwan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1.When Prime Minister Koizumi goes every year celebrate the memory of a graded soldier, who was also a war criminal, that's "institutionnal provocation". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I understand it, this is a very contentious issue and nowhere near as simple as you present it. Yasukuni Shrine exists for the veneration of all 2.5 million Japanese who "died in battle during WWII". Very few of these are convicted warcriminals, but it does include 14 class A warcriminals.

The shrine is I believe an important Shinto shrine, and Koizumi has himself stated that he does not go there to "celebrate the memory of a graded soldier, who was also a war criminal" as you have claimed but to "pray for peace and that Japan should never go to war again".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if read japanese apologises with attention, you will find that they only say "what we did".
For Japan, it means war and citizens death due to war.
For China, Korea and many others, it should mean war crimes : organised massacres, medical tests, "special" prisonner camps...
(One of the most common argue about Nankin massacre in Japan is : "it's normal, it was not controlled but some isolated soldiers' fact, it'war") </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But once again this is not true. Koizumi stated:

"In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One of the most common argue about Nankin massacre in Japan is : "it's normal, it was not controlled but some isolated soldiers' fact, it'war" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If the government does claim this it would be wrong (but I haven't heared anywhere that they do claim it).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When some of the most sold mangas are about critics against chinese and korean people, whose culture(s) diferrencies is a good argue to invade, and when these mangas explain how courageous and glorious were the japanese soldiers in China and Korea, everything authorized, that's revisionism for the masses.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, English is not my first language, what is "mangas"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Maybe I have exagerated a bit the percents, but you can believe me that it is highier than in Germany for instance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do believe it is far higher than in Germany, and it is a shame, but it is certainly not a reason to say that most of the nation is like that. Ignorant people do exist in every nation, and that includes China and Korea as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Maybe you understand my point of view, don'you ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course I understand your view. I don't agree, however, with collectively holding guilty the modern people of an entire nation for crimes it commited some 70 years ago though.

I would, like you, wish to see a better understanding of not just the war in China but the whole war, not just in Japan but in all nations.

Macwan
09-08-2005, 07:19 AM
Yes, of course, I don't accuse the entire japanese nation...

And as you say, there are ignorant people everywhere, hence the importance of public (even private) education and hence the importance of what is taught...

Comparing educative systems, their size, their content and their results (with indicators and various explanations)is a good way, on my opinion, to have an idea of a country evolution (nationalism, politics, economy and society).

And what is taught about history always depicts how you consider the world, your neighbours.
I am just pessimistic for Japan.

("manga"...maybe I used the french word, it's the name of japanese comics).

Regards,

Macwan.

Dtools4fools
09-08-2005, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And I insist that it would be more than useless, stupid, to produce and distribute a chinese add-on/campaign, even in America/Europe, WITHOUT chinese authorizations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Does the entire rest of the world has to dance to the tune of the gov there?

So China will ban a GAME because it doesn't fit into their views? So let it be.

Ask them? And then they will not approve it?

I don't see a reason to ask China if one can or cannot simulate a part of a war that did take place in history in a GAME.

*****

Macwan
09-08-2005, 07:36 AM
-Dtools4fools

No, of course, Ubi or 1C could do what they want without authorization and not in China.

But you always fell better when your product doesn't figure in a forbidden products list...

Just a question about distributing your company and its products in China, now and in the future...

Macwan
09-08-2005, 08:02 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:


The shrine is I believe an important Shinto shrine, and Koizumi has himself stated that he does not go there to "celebrate the memory of a graded soldier, who was also a war criminal" as you have claimed but to "pray for peace and that Japan should never go to war again".
[QUOTE]

Yes, that's right. Nevertheless, in this case, politic leaders (in France and I think in Germany too)used to be forgiven by meeting representatives communities and celebrate the victim's memory with dedicated buildings on the historical places.
If Japanese leader really consider "war criminal " as what they were, they would have done a Shinto exception years ago.
I have never heard anything about a german leader who would have celebrate the memory of victims of Nazis and their allies, near the grave of a war criminal! And I have already visited lots of german WW2 cemetaries... nothing about war criminals !
Maybe Japanese culture is different, but about this point, chinese people think like Americans or Europeans.
Japnese leaders know that...

That is really provocation.

Dtools4fools
09-08-2005, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But you always fell better when your product doesn't figure in a forbidden products list... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, actually PR wise it might actually be not bad to be on a not-allowed-in-communist -china list...
You get a lot of attention elsewhere and slaes might rise in elsewhere...

I personally would not care about the will of the red chinese gov...
And it wouldn't make me feel better if they would give the green light.

Political correctness for a gov with no political correctness, or what?

****

Chuck_Older
09-08-2005, 11:40 AM
Actually, an interesting thing since Political Correctness is a term coined by Mao tse Tung if I recall

A map with no cities named on it is already in the works as we 'speak'

A large China map with no names on the cities is certainly possible since the maps of other real places have are not necessarily correct either

Tater-SW-
09-08-2005, 12:14 PM
14 Class A War Criminals, and countless willing actors on top of that. The notion that behavior such as happened in China (and Europe) to noncombatants was somehow the fault of a tiny handful and the soldiers were just doing what they were told is absurd. The abuses heaped upon the Chinese were done by large numbers of Imperial Japanese Soldiers. Not by a few, in their many thousands or millions.

Every soldier had a choice to use a "comfort woman." They had a choice to rape and then kill, or even to just run someone through who walked in front of you. Sometimes killing is ordered and happens through the chain of command, cruelty requires personal initiative.

tater

Adlerangriff
09-08-2005, 05:33 PM
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107357.html

http://www.grafspee.com/thebattle.html


Actually, we have all we need to do Brazil. The Tirpitz, one of the island type maps and a little imagination would make a good Forgotten Battle.

Macwan
09-09-2005, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
14 Class A War Criminals, and countless willing actors on top of that. The notion that behavior such as happened in China (and Europe) to noncombatants was somehow the fault of a tiny handful and the soldiers were just doing what they were told is absurd. The abuses heaped upon the Chinese were done by large numbers of Imperial Japanese Soldiers. Not by a few, in their many thousands or millions.

Every soldier had a choice to use a "comfort woman." They had a choice to rape and then kill, or even to just run someone through who walked in front of you. Sometimes killing is ordered and happens through the chain of command, cruelty requires personal initiative.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are absolutly right Tater-SW !

And there is a revisionism wave in Japan, in which some people try to justify Japanese Army cruelty.
I absolutly don't care about Koizumi's "good diplomatic attitude", only speaking when everyone in Asia is angry...
And why are they angry ? Because of this revisionism wave.
And why against Japanses leaders ? Because they don't anything to change things. And their controversive attitude (no, not what they say, but what they DO, or DON'T) isn't much better...

In this context of anger between nations in Asia, how could anyone here pretend that a game about WW2 wouldn't cause any problem ?
Those who wouldn't understand that can't really be interested in asian situation, its past and its present.

Regards,

Macwan.

Dtools4fools
09-09-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In this context of anger between nations in Asia, how could anyone here pretend that a game about WW2 wouldn't cause any problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Depends what kind of game.
A flight sim is a GAME that sims air combat during that time. And you can't strafe civilans in it...

In my opinion people who would be upset because of such a game are a bit... oversensitive.

In good old Civilisation game you could put your tribe on Japan islands and go and conqueror China... even that seemed not to cause big waves...

The reason why I don't see it being a problem is because the majority of the people in Asia will be smart enough to see that it is

- a freaking GAME
- not glorifying/reincarnating cruelties/colonialism done by Japan during that time.

****

goshikisen
09-09-2005, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Macwan:
Yes, you are absolutly right Tater-SW !

And there is a revisionism wave in Japan, in which some people try to justify Japanese Army cruelty.
I absolutly don't care about Koizumi's "good diplomatic attitude", only speaking when everyone in Asia is angry...
And why are they angry ? Because of this revisionism wave.
And why against Japanses leaders ? Because they don't anything to change things. And their controversive attitude (no, not what they say, but what they DO, or DON'T) isn't much better...

In this context of anger between nations in Asia, how could anyone here pretend that a game about WW2 wouldn't cause any problem ?
Those who wouldn't understand that can't really be interested in asian situation, its past and its present.

Regards,

Macwan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever heard of something called the Cultural Revolution? The number of people executed, missing, starved or worked to death during the 3 years of that period of China's history is astronomical. Not to diminish or understate the tragedy of what happened in Nanking... but the Japanese are not alone in their ability to commit acts of utter brutality. The Japanese are accused of revising their history while the PRC have yet to even own up to some of the ugliest aspects of their own. Tiananmen square.... Tibet. You'd probably be either thrown in jail or kicked out of the country for trying to discuss the reality of what happened at these places.

Somebody should remind the PRC about the old cliche about people living in glass houses. They have their own sordid history to account for.

- also - asking for the Chinese government's permission to make an add-on based on the actions of the Nationalist Chinese is beyond laughable... what is the rationale for such a move? Did Oleg have to ask the German government for permission to include the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht in IL2?

A bit of a rant... I'm sure, but there seems to be a great deal of finger pointing and bullying going on by a country that is so far from squeaky clean it's almost absurd.

Regards, Goshikisen.

Chuck_Older
09-09-2005, 03:00 PM
It's a sad fact that the only reason this thread hasn't been locaked is because nobody who can has bothered to look- that alone tells me the chances that we might get a China map are slim to none

goshikisen
09-09-2005, 05:45 PM
To redirect this in a more positive and constructive direction... (although I agree with shinden's Taiwan comment). Here are a few screenshots of a Ki-21 II that SaQSoN posted a week ago. All screenshots of the Ki-21 to this point have been of the I model, if I'm not mistaken.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/Ki-21-II_002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/Ki-21-II_003.jpg

I'm somewhat confused... I thought Oleg had stated that the Ki-21 wouldn't be incorporated and yet we now have 2 different variations on the aircraft. The Sally would make a great addition along with some sort of Burma/China map.

Regards, Goshikisen.

LEXX_Luthor
09-09-2005, 06:57 PM
ElAurens:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When the current Communist Chinese government had a touring display about the efforts of the US and, Flying Tigers in particular, to help China defeat the Japanese they had no problem putting images of the aircraft markings in that display. I saw it a the National Museum Of The United States Air Force a year or so ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I heard about the Chinese having a FT P-40 on display, and it may have the Nationalist markings. As far as I know, even the Chinese Communists allow fond memories of the Flying Tigers. Not sure.

SaQSoN:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for the maps, frankly, I was joking about the 1:25000 map Smile, though it would be certainly prefferable, particulary for the river/water outlines, that could change since then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, big Chinese rivers can change alot, like Volga River changes near Stalingrad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but do the best you can or some other Developer team might -- especially that Microsoft is not making combat flight sims anymore. Of course, the "other" Devs would only focus on Flying Tigers and ignore the much more massive 1930s Soviet vs Japan air conflict. Mountains and coastline don't change much, and the StrikeFighters sim has some great mountain and coastline terrain mapping that makes full use of satellite data. And, its being well used by independent 3rd Party StrikeFighters map makers -- which includes... me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

shinden1974
09-09-2005, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by goshikisen:
To redirect this in a more positive and constructive direction... (although I agree with shinden's Taiwan comment). Here are a few screenshots of a Ki-21 II that SaQSoN posted a week ago. All screenshots of the Ki-21 to this point have been of the I model, if I'm not mistaken.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/Ki-21-II_002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/Ki-21-II_003.jpg

I'm somewhat confused... I thought Oleg had stated that the Ki-21 wouldn't be incorporated and yet we now have 2 different variations on the aircraft. The Sally would make a great addition along with some sort of Burma/China map.

Regards, Goshikisen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow.

good thing you steered us back where we should be. To help I erased my post, which though I stand by what I said...doesn't belong here at all. I'm honestly quite political, and maybe there's a little too much of that coming from me.

Think one of the russian add-ons is going to be a china scenario or something like it, maybe early war...the Ki27 (a and b?) and the Ki21 seem to point toward it. cross your fingers folks.

Luftwaffe_109
09-09-2005, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- also - asking for the Chinese government's permission to make an add-on based on the actions of the Nationalist Chinese is beyond laughable... what is the rationale for such a move? Did Oleg have to ask the German government for permission to include the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht in IL2?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, history should never be a hostage of modern politics.

If the PRC objects to a China addon then the obvious course of action is to simply not sell inside the PRC. Surely this is a far more desirable outcome than not having a Chinese addon at all?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In this context of anger between nations in Asia, how could anyone here pretend that a game about WW2 wouldn't cause any problem ?
Those who wouldn't understand that can't really be interested in asian situation, its past and its present.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This "anger between nations in Asia" is due to a lot more than simply Japan not doing all she could be doing to recognise her wartime past. It is also due in no small part to rivalries that stretch back hundreds of years.

It is also due (and perhaps most importantly so) to modern rivalries (both political and economic). The Chinese government has done much to exploit anti-Japanese sentiment for its own political ends.

Any anger at a simulation which portrays combat (not atrocities) that occured 70 years ago is quite silly in my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes, of course, I don't accuse the entire japanese nation... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But you do. When you erroneously claim that the €œdefeated enemy still insists that he was right€ you claim exactly that.

Buzzsaw-
09-09-2005, 09:14 PM
Salute

The state of China/Japan relations are a result of a very complex set of factors.

1) Of all the developed economies, China is currently the worst human-rights violator. From its invasion, occupation and suppression of Tibet, to the draconian crackdown on the Falun Gong, to enviromental and labour standards in mainland China, (tens of thousands die every year in unsafe and poisonous workplaces) the corrupt Authoritarian Oligarchy which is the Chinese Communist Party has shown itself to be completely without interest in the real welfare of its citizens.
It's also clear that this same Government is manipulating the issue of Japan's War record in China during WWII to whip up Jingoistic anti-Japan fervor in China, and divert the population's attention away from the more serious reforms which need to be implemented.

At the same time...

2) Japan had a horrendous record in WWII when it came to its treatment of the civilians of other Asian nations. An estimated 10 million Chinese were killed from the start of the conflict to surrender in 1945. Chinese civilians were used in Germ warfare experiments, and overall, the Japanese treated the entire nation as if it was populated by animals rather than humans. Similar scenarios were played out in the Phillipines, Vietnam, and the other occupied nations.

Since the War, Japan's willingness to acknowledge its responsibility for the war crimes which its soldiers committed has been less than forthcoming. Compared to Germany, its record is shameful. While the Germans make citizen education and full disclosure and acknowledgement of its crimes a cornerstone of its policy of education and awareness, Japan has avoided bringing the issues before the majority of its population.

Both #1 and #2 are exacerbating the state of relations between Japan and China, as well as the building rivalry for economic dominance in Asia.

Dtools4fools
09-10-2005, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the Sally screenies, I must have missed those...

Looks fantastic!

I think we will get this baby, question is just... when...!!! Maybe in the autumn-06-addon....

I am patient. Very patient.
****

Macwan
09-12-2005, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

The state of China/Japan relations are a result of a very complex set of factors.

1) Of all the developed economies, China is currently the worst human-rights violator. From its invasion, occupation and suppression of Tibet, to the draconian crackdown on the Falun Gong, to enviromental and labour standards in mainland China, (tens of thousands die every year in unsafe and poisonous workplaces) the corrupt Authoritarian Oligarchy which is the Chinese Communist Party has shown itself to be completely without interest in the real welfare of its citizens.
It's also clear that this same Government is manipulating the issue of Japan's War record in China during WWII to whip up Jingoistic anti-Japan fervor in China, and divert the population's attention away from the more serious reforms which need to be implemented.

At the same time...

2) Japan had a horrendous record in WWII when it came to its treatment of the civilians of other Asian nations. An estimated 10 million Chinese were killed from the start of the conflict to surrender in 1945. Chinese civilians were used in Germ warfare experiments, and overall, the Japanese treated the entire nation as if it was populated by animals rather than humans. Similar scenarios were played out in the Phillipines, Vietnam, and the other occupied nations.

Since the War, Japan's willingness to acknowledge its responsibility for the war crimes which its soldiers committed has been less than forthcoming. Compared to Germany, its record is shameful. While the Germans make citizen education and full disclosure and acknowledgement of its crimes a cornerstone of its policy of education and awareness, Japan has avoided bringing the issues before the majority of its population.

Both #1 and #2 are exacerbating the state of relations between Japan and China, as well as the building rivalry for economic dominance in Asia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personnally, nothing to add.

Regards,

Macwan.

OldMan____
09-13-2005, 05:20 AM
Well, NOTHING happened in Brazil is a little bit exageration. A few things happened here.

In Brazil there were USAAF bases to help cover ocean from U-Boat activity. Ans Graff Spee was hunt down in Brazilian waters until it seeked heaven in Uruguai.

Not much.. but more than nothing :P

rssmps
09-19-2005, 04:28 PM
Guys,

Trying to be politically correct is just too funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PRC did not officially exist until 1949. So for the period that we're talking about... there was NO People's Republic of. During that time, there was only one China. Repulic of. Every one fought Japan under the same flag (the Nationalist).

As for "Forgotten Battles", pre-1941 WW2 air battles over china definitely qualifies.

YES TO CHINA THEATER!!!!
I would love to see:
1) bi-plane battles over China
2) Flying Tiger missions
3) Doolittle Raid re-enacted.

----------------------------------------
This is for CFS2 but inside is a good word file that talks about some Chinese aces.
http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pc/games/flight-sim/uploads03/apr/hawk3v2.zip

The author (Ivan Hsu) stated that this was for CFS2. Mod for FS2002/2004 by either:
1) edit SOUND.CFG
[fltsim]
alias=A6M2_Zero\sound &lt;---change A6M2_Zero to c172

2) delete SOUND.CFG

goshikisen
09-19-2005, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rssmps:
Guys,

Trying to be politically correct is just too funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PRC did not officially exist until 1949. So for the period that we're talking about... there was NO People's Republic of. During that time, there was only one China. Repulic of. Every one fought Japan under the same flag (the Nationalist).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only time the term PRC was used in this thread (at least in my case) was in regards to modern day China.

ImpStarDuece
09-19-2005, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rssmps:
Guys,

Trying to be politically correct is just too funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PRC did not officially exist until 1949. So for the period that we're talking about... there was NO People's Republic of. During that time, there was only one China. Repulic of. Every one fought Japan under the same flag (the Nationalist). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

China during WW2 was a little more complicated than that. Actually, it was a LOT more complicated than that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

You had the Kuomintang (Chinese Nationalists) who were officially in charge of large sections of the county, the Japanese who had conquered key sections of the country and the Communists who were in control of the areas that no one else really wanted too badly.

To complicate matters you also have the existence of the Japanese puppet state of Manchuko (manchuria) and the Chinese Collaborationist Army, who fought for the Japanese and were the largest Axis land force in China (approx 2.2 million troops). Furthermore, you also have the notionally independent Chinese warlords, who generally fought the Japanese whenever they could and were supposedly united under the leadership of Chiang Kai-Shek, but also tended to occasionally fight each other.

The Japanese saw the Kuomintang as their main enemy and both sides engaged in all out warfare against each other. The Kuomintang also saw the Communists as enemies, and the Communists regarded them similarly. The Chinese communists generally engaged in guerrilla warfare against Japanese supplyline, but also conducted raids on Nationalist positions and supply depots and attempted to presere their strength for what they saw as a final showwdown between the Nationalists and Communists.

rssmps
09-19-2005, 06:41 PM
ImpStarDuece,

You're right, it was very complicated. I just didn't write a history book on it and also didn't see the point of bringing it up.

Let's keep in mind what the scope of this thread was supposed to be, the airwar part. The airforce was controled by the official government. So naturally, the flag at the time was the nationalist flag.

We're all after historical correctness (well, most of us) so I say we put the flag of the countries that signed the documents on BB-63.

Simple, not complicated at all. If Oleg is worried about sales in China, then put a patch to download and have the PRC govt figure out how to force people to use it and wipe out the Nationalist flag.

Actually, if you've followed the politics lately, PRC has started to acknowledge the KMT... so this might not be as sensitive an issue as everyone thinks it is. But that's politics and way out of hte scope. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

----------------------------------------------
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/japansur/js-8g.htm
Photo #: SC 213698
Surrender of Japan, Tokyo Bay, 2 September 1945

General Hsu Yung-chang signs the Instrument of Surrender on behalf of the Republic of China, on board USS Missouri (BB-63), 2 September 1945.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s200000/s213698.jpg

rssmps
09-19-2005, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by goshikisen:
The only time the term PRC was used in this thread (at least in my case) was in regards to modern day China. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really replying toward the worries of this post.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m...941057253#7941057253 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8441097053/r/7941057253#7941057253)

I agree with ElAurens
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m...121075353#9121075353 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8441097053/r/9121075353#9121075353)

CuteQA
09-21-2005, 02:35 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif
I'm from Taiwan.
It would be great to see Republic of China flag to be added into the sim's country choices. After all, many our families (and my grandpa who retreated to Taiwan with our goverment) have fought in WW2 for our flag and paid with blood. There are alredy many great planes in game(even some early russian planes such as i-16) were used by ROC during the WW2, and simply just need to put on the insignia to make a campaign. Don't see a point why to request a permission or worry about adding ROC flag from another country's Goverment. Also, It is historically correct since this is a WW2 sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ps: I met one real life AVG pilot while I was visiting the AeroSpace Museum in DC. he told me how did they fight zero and what did they do during war. He was shot down, and Chinese resistance hide him for months. I was too excited and forgot to ask his name, but I took
a picture and i will post it when i get home hope maybe anyone knows him.
Anyway, Thank you for defending our country.
http://www.historysaver.com/assets/art/ww2/shaw-volunteer.jpg